China says military exercises intended to threaten Taiwan

If it comes to conflict, I'm sure Taiwan will give a hell of fight, but there chance to win are abysmal. They are not recognized by anyone, therefore would have no ally to take on the world's largest army...

Only recognised by the entire world, and the USA especially has warned China in the past, that any attack on Taiwan would be met with severe rebuttal as an ally.

Haruka - Taiwan actually is very strong and has the ability to attack and take over the mainland if they really wanted.

Daft. Taiwan simply doesn’t have the men and armour for that., let alone the logistics. They could no doubt give the PLA serious pause for thought.

Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity. It is a basic principle underlying the dominant Westphalian model of state foundation.

State sovereignty is sometimes viewed synonymously with independence, however, sovereignty can be transferred as a legal right whereas independence cannot.

--From Wiki

to a few who don't understand sovereignty of state, please read more than what I said. Independence and sovereignty are two different concept. Sovereignty is absolute and a foundation for peace. Chinese people have the self determination right and they choose, support the current PRC. That is the end of story. ROC is a rebel, as defined by international laws, still in a civil war status with PRC. The current ROC govt is terrorist govt, no respect of international laws. There is no way that 1.4 billion people would vote on paper to have a traitor govt which submit sovereignty to foreign powers. That is one of main reasons that ROC was abandoned by the mainland Chinese. There is no way that Taiwan can be separated from China, even if you threat China with thousand nuclear bombs, because China can produce the same or even more nuclear bombs to protect Taiwan.

For the first time since World War II, the fate of Taiwan rests with an American President whose support is for sale to the highest bidder.

It needs to be clarified that Japan did indeed hand over Taiwan island to China. But the "China" back them is not the communist china, it was the nationalist KMT government that took control of Taiwan after WWII.

The KMT then escaped to Taiwan island after they lost the chinese civil war to the communists and set up a new government in Taiwan island.

That Taiwan government now evolved into democratic and free government and is no longer under the dictatorship of the KMT party. But there are many remnants of the KMT rule over the island still left today, such as:

the national flag currently used is a symbol of KMT party that created ROC

the name Republic of China is still used the ROC constitution still used today in Taiwan still claims the right to all of mainland china, Taiwan, Tibet, and even Mongolia!!!!), thus the one china policy

There are many more but the above complicates the status of Taiwan and is used by china to push its one china policy.

What many people don't know is that there already Taiwanese people living on the island before the KMT government escaped to Taiwan from China, and they make up over 80% of the population now. This 80% of the population wants nothing to do with KMT party or the ROC government and the constitution that they forcibly established on the island.

Akie: I have read through your comments above and I have to say that some of them are incorrect.

For example, you say "Chinese people have self determination right and they have chosen the current govt and they have chosen a unified and united Great China".

I agree that the Chinese people have the right to self determination, but that right is denied them by the Chinese communist party. You must know that the Chinese communist party does not allow free elections. You must also know that anyone who tries to oppose the unelected Chinese dictatorship is arrested and jailed. Because of this you cannot say that the Chinese people have chosen their current government: it has been imposed upon them.

You also said "But separation is forbidden by laws, in fact by all laws of sovereign nations". This is incorrect. To give some examples: if a majority of the people of Northern Ireland vote for unification with the Irish Republic then that is what they will get. Also, the people of Scotland were given the chance to vote for independence just a few years ago. These votes were/are entirely legal under British law. Just because the unelected dictators in Beijing refuse to allow separation does not mean everyone else does.

To seek Taiwan independence is against laws

Which laws? The laws of the "people's republic" of China, laws that were written by despots such as mass murderer Mao? There is no such law in Taiwan. If you are interested in laws, let's look at the Chinese constitution for some examples of rights that are routinely denied by the Beijing dictatorship.

Article 34: All people have the right to stand for election. (this right is illegally denied by the communists)

Article 35: Citizens enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly (illegally denied by the communists)

Why are these basic rights being denied by the Chinese dictators? Why don't the Chinese courts uphold the constitution? The Chinese constitution is really a work of fiction that bears no relation to reality. It's clear that we cannot take any Chinese "laws" seriously.

I think that the current Chinese government has no right to tell the Taiwanese people what they can and cannot do. The current Chinese government is illegitimate and does not represent the will of the Chinese people. If Xi wants to speak for the Chinese people he should allow free elections first. He won't do that because he is too scared of losing. He prefers to crush opposition with tanks and guns.

Seeking re-election is different from unilaterally declaring oneself to have no term limit as Xi Jinping has done. It is the classic tactic of a dictator to declare oneself to have no term limit after taking power.

Chinese have tradition to accept leaders for 1000 years if he is beloved and if he can live that long.

Define "beloved" in this context please. Is Xi "beloved" enough by those under his control to be dictator for life according to what you feel is a Chinese "tradition"? Please provide concrete evidence of Xi's "beloved" status.

Serve for life an no term limit are essentially the same given a leader that declares himself to have no term limit even though he was chosen on the explicit understanding his term would be a short, fixed period. Many dicators throughout history have used the same path to control.

Hello, utosa, there is big difference between serve for life and no term limit. You still have to be elected to serve, no matter how you "explain it".

Agreed. We are at a "very different levels". You need to study and read the original document of the Chinese constitution. Serving more that two terms was not explicitly permitted.

Even in China there has been much debate over the planned amendment of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) constitution, allowing the president and vice president to serve more than two terms in office. This is common knowledge.

https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/xi-jinping-rising-dictator-or-another-east-asian-strongman/

utorsa, we are at very different levels. If you want to discuss any further with me, you have to study Chines constitution seriously. Read the original document, instead of distorted report. There is no such thing as for life in the constitution. If there were, it would be liberating Taiwan.

Sorry, but simple ad hominem is not an argument.

Here is a similar article on Xi Jinping's attempt to go against China's constitution and become "Dictator for life".

https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/xi-jinping-rising-dictator-or-another-east-asian-strongman/

Amusingly, the article is from exactly the same news source you cited for your article "History and the Possibility of Taiwan-Japan Relations". Can we thus conclude that you know nothing about the world? 

According to the article:

Internally, Xi has also tightened his grip on information flows, for example by increasing internet restrictions and arresting citizens promoting anti-CCP ideology. These are all characteristics of a rising dictator aiming to remove his opposition and reassert total control over the country.

Then why is China saying their military exercises are intended to threaten Taiwan? Isn't that contrary to peace and working together? Please explain.

Shouldn't you be asking that question to The General Secretary of the Communist Party of China? According to The Guardian newspaper, Xi Jinping recently tried to go against China's constitution in an effort to become "Dictator for life".

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/04/xi-jinping-from-president-to-china-new-dictator

Why ? You have to ask that question to Premier of the Republic of China who publicly claims to be a segregationist and secessionist, against the constitution which he swears to follow and protect. As for working together, that is what China is doing, treating all people in the Taiwan as equal as possible as mainland Chinese.

Who are "those people" who would "sacrifice the whole planet"? How have "they" destroyed the "greatest culture on earth"? Indeed, what is the greatest culture on earth? Does that not depend somewhat on one's perspective and biases?

Why not try to work together for peace and try to win hearts and minds instead of threatening fellow humans with military exercises and war?

utorsa, those people are worse than terrorists. They put million people lives in risk, they destroy the greatest culture on earth, they violate sovereignty of a great nation, they split brother and sister into halves. They are extremest with evil mind, they don't care about peace, they would sacrifice the whole planet for their own hatred.

Akie,

Thanks for the link but it still doesn’t answer my question.

Former President Lee Teng-hui made comments supporting Japan’s collective right to self defense. How does this make Taiwanese “current terrorists” who “favor Japan colonial occupation”?

Akie, unfortunately, is correct.

Inside Taiwan, there are mostly people who want to rejoin the mainland. This group appears to have gain political power currently.

Taiwan has never specifically voted to be separate from mainland China. I don't know why this is. Perhaps they don't want to provoke China or they hope to reconnect and have China transition to a democratic-republic form of govt? Or perhaps outside influences have said they wouldn't back a full civil war with China by Taiwan? I don't know.

utorse,

search for "History and the Possibility of Taiwan-Japan Relations", and read the line : "The real news came when in mid-August former President Lee Teng-hui – often called the father of the Taiwanese independence movement – applauded Japan’s far-right and its effort to reinterpret Article 9, allowing for a more robust Japanese military and hard power-oriented foreign policy. Lee’s approving words were in notable contrast to the response of Japan’s other East Asian neighbors, indeed South Korea and China moved to strengthen ties in response. For these countries, the memory of Japan’s past atrocities are painfully salient, but not for Taiwan."

Akie,

North America was Native Indian territory since ancient times. It is the same. Should explorers from Europe be allowed to control Taiwan because they call it "a new found land"?

What "terrorists" are in Taiwan and how are they linked to what you claim to be "colonial Japan imperialism"? Please provide credible internet links.

utorsa, north america is a new found land for explorers from Europe, while Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory since ancient time. The difference between the two is day and night. As the terrorists in Taiwan, they are linked to the colonial Japan imperialism, and ideological extremists against mainland China.

China will invade Taiwan if Taiwan ever put the question of independence to a vote

Yep. The current 'standoff' is actually very Asian - as long as Taiwan doesn't explicitly declare independence, China doesn't explicitly invade them and take them over. Westerners often feel the need to force a conclusion, whereas Asians often are ok with living in a weird balance like that for an extended period of time.

Taiwan should hold a vote FOR or AGAINST independence from mainland China rule. They've left the door for either method open almost 50 yrs. It is time the people of Taiwan decide, clearly, decide.

China will invade Taiwan if Taiwan ever put the question of independence to a vote

@Akie,

Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory, by modern law and by ancient history, totally different from Canada and USA. North America is not the same as Europe, not the same location, not the same history, not the same people, not the same culture.

Demonstrably false. Canada and USA share the same history, culture and language with Europe. In fact, Canada and The United States were founded by Europeans.

The current terrorists in Taiwan who seek independence are those who favor Japan colonial occupation. 

What Taiwanese "current terrorists" are agitating for "Japan colonial occupation"? Please provide your sources for this statement.

Strangerland, stop confusing yourself before you confuse others.

The truth only confuses those who would seek to lie.

Both Taiwan and Tibet are part of Chinese history and territory long before you were born and your parents were born.

Maybe, but they are independent nations now.

Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory

No it's not, it's an independent nation.

Strangerland, stop confusing yourself before you confuse others. Both Taiwan and Tibet are part of Chinese history and territory long before you were born and your parents were born. The first Tibet King was married to a Chinese girl, Tibetans are carrying the same Chinese genes as Taiwanese do. At the time when some Chinese went to Taiwan, Taiwan is a part of Chinese territory, by modern law and by ancient history, totally different from Canada and USA. North America is not the same as Europe, not the same location, not the same history, not the same people, not the same culture. In fact they are thousand miles apart.

They left China and went to Taiwan. An independent nation. Kind of like Tibet - another independent nation.

Taiwanese carry Chinese genes, flow Chinese blood, stand up with Chinese bones, speak with Chinese languages, eat Chinese food, have Chinese color, see with Chinese eyes. Tell me how do you separate Taiwanese from Chinese ?

And white people carry the genes and culture of Europe, yet predomimantly white nations like Canada and USA are independent of Europe. Just like Taiwan is independent of China.

Strangerland, where did you get the idea that Taiwanese want to be independent ?

From the Taiwanese - you know, how they left China, in order to become an independent nation, and even now do not submit to Chinese rule.

China is one nation, one people.

I agree. But Taiwan is not China. It is an independent nation.

To seek Taiwan independence is against laws.

China has come up with some silly 'law' that this is the case, but as Taiwan is an independent nation, Chinese laws hold no weight in Taiwan.

That's like me making a rule that you cannot eat meat. I can say it and believe it all I want, but if you want to eat meat, you are going to, and that is your right, since I am not your owner.

I know China hates it, but reality is Taiwan is not theirs, and never will be without military action, which would turn the world against China.

Taiwan independence forevah!

Strangerland, where did you get the idea that Taiwanese want to be independent ? China is one nation, one people, where did you get the idea of neighbors ? Even if you have police in this world, he/she will have to follow laws. To seek Taiwan independence is against laws. The so called Taiwan independence is pushed and promoted and encouraged by foreign nations, an action that violates sovereignty of nations. When Japan occupied Taiwan many years ago, did Japan allow Taiwan independence ? How many Taiwanese did Japan killed to suppress anti-Japan occupation ? The current terrorists in Taiwan who seek independence are those who favor Japan colonial occupation. That tells a lot about "self determination".

You have assumed too much in the view that Taiwan is seeking independence. Taiwan's independence move is largely encouraged and supported by foreign nations, not from Chinese people.

The Taiwanese want to be independent, but it's hard when your neighbor is essentially a stalker, and there are no police around to take care of the stalker.

albaleo, self determination is not the same as separation. You have assumed too much in the view that Taiwan is seeking independence. Taiwan's independence move is largely encouraged and supported by foreign nations, not from Chinese people. The civil war between ROC and PRC is still in the present continuous tense. Taiwan will be liberated and reunified, hopefully peacefully. Self determination is largely for people under colonial rule or people who lost sovereignty to external occupation power.

Akie, I haven't said much about China, just about the principle of self determination. My point is simply my criticism of China's position on sovereignty and territorial integrity. I think it's wrong.

I am aware of the ROC and PRC memberships of the UN. I'm also aware that Taiwan's current constitution recognizes a one-state China, but that the current main political party views itself as an independent country. For understandable reasons, it hasn't taken any steps to formalize that position.

Membership of the UN simply requires the approval of the General Assembly. Past history shows this usually happens after a large number of member countries formally recognize the new country. It hasn't happened in the case of Taiwan because Taiwan hasn't sought recognition by other countries or membership of the UN. Most other countries are probably relieved about that. No one wants to upset China (PRC).

Well, at least China were being honest about being warmongers this time. Normally they try to blame the countries they're bullying of being militaristic. This isn't going to end well for China. No-one likes a bully, and if the people of Taiwan want to be independent from China, that will needs to be respected. If China tries to ignore that, it'll find itself under fire from countries all around the globe. Expect sanctions, restrictions and various other forms of political and economic pressure being placed upon China. Meanwhile, Japan, India Vietnam and other victims of China's bullying will rally around Taiwan to support their pursuit of independence. I'd like to say we could count on America's support, but that'll only happen if Trump gets replaced as POTUS by someone less corrupt and more competent. It's in China's best interests to just bow out and let the people of Taiwan act according to their wishes. A mature response like that would be more beneficial than a childish tantrum.

albaleo, you really need to study China before you talk about it. Do you know why there are no two China in UN ? Do you know that before PRC, there was ROC in UN ? UN never allowed two China in its building and never will do.

Akie, is that similar to the way the UN got Belgrade's permission to recognize Croatia as an independent state? I'm pretty sure Croatia's (and other countries') admission to the UN was due to the large number of other UN member states officially recognizing it as such.

albaleo, on behalf of the secretary general, Taiwan has to ask Beijing on this one. It is a sovereign issue and out of UN authority.

Thanks, Akie. Could you ask the secretary general whether the UN would recognize Taiwan as an independent state if it chose to declare itself as such?

albaleo, UN secretary general asked me to tell you that UN recognizes PRC as the only govt represent China and Taiwan is a part of China.

Akie,

From UN General Assembly Resolution 1514:

"All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

How does that differ from independence?

albaleo, you shoot yourself again by equaling self determination with independence. Self determination is allowed in Taiwan right now by PRC. Do people choose their own govt ? do their own business ? express their own thinking ? But separation is forbidden by laws, in fact by all laws of sovereign nations. I have no authority to explain self determination. You need to go to a university to study it and you will understand what I said.

Akie, needless to say, I completely disagree with most of what you say (the bits I understand, anyway).

self determination has nothing to do with independence,

To me, they are essentially the same. Please explain how you understand self determination.

There are more foreigners than Chinese people to work hard to separate Taiwan from China. The few bad apples in Taiwan are financed, educated and supported by those foreign govts. A war against Taiwan independence is a war against foreign invasion and justified as self defense under UN laws.

albaleo, first you shoot yourself by saying " it's not clear whether that is the will of the majority of people in Taiwan". If a constitution doesn't reflect people's will, then what will reflect people's will ? Party's charter ? Second, self determination in UN charter, did I just stated that 1.4 Chinese people decided to choose the current govt in Beijing as their only legal govt ? You don't work for UN, do you ? No wonder you are so illiterate to abuse the UN charter. self determination only works for people under external occupation and colonization. for a sovereign nation, sovereignty takes precedence over self determination. Finally, self determination has nothing to do with independence, particularly for Taiwan separation desire by a few terrible extremists.

@Akie

Thanks for your post.

The constitution of ROC clearly states there is only one China.

It's an interesting point, but it's not clear whether that is the will of the majority of people in Taiwan.

There is no such a law or democratic principle that says Taiwan can be separated from China.

Article 1 of Chapter 1 of the United Nations charter talks of "the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples". I think that is a mighty strong democratic principle. It says to me that if the people of Taiwan want to be a separate nation, they can be.

Losers Can't Be Choosers, that is democratic principle 101.

HonestDictator, if the world can tell what China should and could do, then the world is not the world we want to live in. Does Chinese people have the right to choose their own way of living ? Where is democratic principle if 1.4 billion people are ignored. Taiwan is part of China, by sovereignty and by democracy. Chinese people have self determination right and they have chosen the current govt and they have chosen a unified and united Great China.

Strangerland: by definition alone, China looks for fascist than communist this days.

What's so special about Taiwan that they can't let it go?

It's nothing really special to China, it's only special to the Chinese Communist Party. Taiwan is run by the ROC. The CCP believes that China should be "united" under their authoritarian control. They want power over others even in their own country which is why they are the way they are now. Which was exactly the problem with too many communist countries in the first place, they always end up with authoritarian dictatorships. Xi and no more term limits ring a bell as a repeat of history?

The world needs to make their stance on this very clear to the Chinese Government in regards to Taiwan. Taiwan is part of China, but Taiwan does NOT belong to the Chinese Communist Party. As long as the CCP expect to control Taiwan under their "authority" aka destroying the legitimate government of Taiwan (Formed by the Democratic Progressives Party) and a viable political opponent to the CCP.

China's government has never been about peace, it has always been about control. And until they stop trying to control others then they'll be seen in a different light.

Tell the Communist Government to take a hike!

Second, Japan never handed back Taiwan to China. Japan was forced to abandon its occupation of Taiwan by using force, as a condition to surrender. This is an excellent example that Taiwan can't be separated from China, by war or by flaw.

Quite a flawed article by high quality JT. First, Taiwan never is separated from China. The constitution of ROC clearly states there is only one China. China problem is not two China problem but two govt problem. The world recognizes PRC as the only govt to represent China. It is stated in UN legal framework. Democracy has nothing to do with Taiwan independence. There is no such a law or democratic principle that says Taiwan can be separated from China. Is there any law says that New Delhi can be separated from India, the biggest democratic nation, or Tokyo from Japan, the most constitutional peaceful democratic nation ?

Like Abarham Lincoln declared war at the Confederates, renegade states shall never be allowed forever and whatever different values! "Xi" is at that situation and he is risking his throne to complete the course of unification. This is inevitable!

Strangerland you can not get more commie than China

biggest commie country in the world

forever president ?

Maybe you've never looked up the tenets of Communism - China does not follow them. Neither is 'president for life' one of the tenets of Communism.

China has it's problems, but that does not change the fact that they are not Communist.

The way Taiwan came to be is very complex.

Taiwan should hold a vote FOR or AGAINST independence from mainland China rule. They've left the door for either method open almost 50 yrs. It is time the people of Taiwan decide, clearly, decide.

I think China has been very patient with Taiwan. They have not invaded to force their type of govt onto Taiwan as mainland China has become stronger since the civil war 100 yrs ago.

Strangerland you can not get more commie than China

biggest commie country in the world

forever president ?

Matt Hartwell: If China is such a threat, why are you silly Aussies letting them buy up so much prime real estate in Australia?

Because we're stupid and we think in the short term, like most of the West and both the major political parties seem to support it...for now. I honestly think it might change quite radically in future, especially if China attacks Taiwan. How on earth we can continue to take mainland Chinese under that scenario is mystifying to me.

I can't say what I fear will happen in future should certain circumstances come to pass because this post would be moderated as has already happened many times.

I don't have a problem with ethnic Chinese owning housing and living in Sydney etc, providing they embrace our values and look to integrate....other than it pushes the prices up sky high for everybody else. Obviously I favour Taiwanese and people from Hong Kong. You have to also realize that a lot of those Chinese buyers are long term Australian residents, second and third generation, not all new arrivals. Chinese investment in farmland on the other hand has a pretty patchy record, in terms of medium-long term success.

I don't want and we don't need Chinese investment in infrastructure and lately, neither does the government it seems. The United States is still the largest foreign investor in Australia for business purposes.

I love China and I love Taiwan. And Hong Kong. Like Europe, they should all be independent, but part of a united state.

Wasn't that suppose to be the Hong Kong model? We can see how that is working out. Beijing takeover once again.

@Thunderbird2

It's my understanding that China is also dealing with instability in the western regions. Thus, if Taiwan were allowed to become independent, more power would be given to the western areas to break from China as well.

Heh, at least they finally admitted it

But let no longer a debate that China doesn't threaten a neighbor

I love China and I love Taiwan. And Hong Kong. Like Europe, they should all be independent, but part of a united state.

Communist China under its dictators

China is not communist.

Communist China under its dictators wants hegemony in the region. It's their obscene lust for power and control which is driving them.

 surveys show few Taiwanese favor political unification with authoritarian, Communist Party-ruled China.

Just those taking Chinese money. Everyone else is happy not to be under Chinese rule.

Taiwan is flush with foreign military technology, a lot of it sold by the U.S. Does China really want to see that new/refurbished Kiev carrier at the bottom of the ocean?

If it comes to conflict, I'm sure Taiwan will give a hell of fight, but there chance to win are abysmal. They are not recognized by anyone, therefore would have no ally to take on the world's largest army...

safeguard national sovereignty and territorial integrity

With no regard to the right of self-determination as expressed in the United Nations charter. However, many European leaders will be rightly seen as hypocrites if they lend support to Taiwan's independence but remain silent on the Spanish crackdown on Catalonia's independence referendum.

Very honest of China to admit the truth for once.

Matt Hartwell: If China is such a threat, why are you silly Aussies letting them buy up so much prime real estate in Australia?

China will wait for the results of the next election and you can guarantee they will try to manipulate it in their favor. If that fails, expect war soon after. The U.S and its allies will do nothing to stop it. The only thing they will do is offer humanitarian assistance and more immigration places for Taiwanese that want to get out.

Love how the Chinese want the world to see them as a peaceful, advanced nation, and yet they still act like despots of old where Taiwan is concerned. What's so special about Taiwan that they can't let it go?

I honestly cannot understand how a nation of 23 million is a threat to 1.4 billion. A tiny island, now surrounded by Chinese bases and utterly isolated on the world stage, thanks to China.

Every ethnic Chinese must live under control from Beijing. Even when you live overseas, you are still considered a de-facto citizen that should be willing to do the bidding of Beijing, which is why Chinese nationals living in the West are such a security risk.

No right to forge your own destiny in their mind. No real freedom.

If they do go ahead with the war, any idea that China is a country of peace goes straight out the window

Nobody will be under any illusions any longer.

Oh, Sorry. Not Goliath but Achilles with his weak spot.

The legendary and mythical tiny Ulysses and that giant Goliath, who won at the end.

Love how the Chinese want the world to see them as a peaceful, advanced nation, and yet they still act like despots of old where Taiwan is concerned. What's so special about Taiwan that they can't let it go?

Sad to say, I'd give Taiwan three more years, max, before China marches in. They will want to recover their territory to celebrate the 100th founding of the Chinese Communist Party in 2021.

Taiwan actually is very strong and has the ability to attack and take over the mainland if they really wanted. But, war is bad and we do not need that to happen.