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Christians under siege in post-revolution Egypt

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Welcome back to the "Age of the Crusades" in the "holy lands." It never ends, and, as China and the Koreas demand an apologize from Japan for a more recent situation, it is obvious that certain groups can never move into the 21st century.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Why do the muslims think they are the only and correct way. Losers.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

I think you better watch your comments. You just insulted these people for no reason. They are not "mindless fools". I dare you to walk into a church and say that.

3 ( +2 / -1 )

Sad that this happens after they fought together in their cause for democracy.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Must have something to do with the foreign policy of the Christians in Egypt.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

They, we, are not mindless fools. Just confused, hurt, unreconciled, misunderstood, undereducated in our own faiths, and others. And too full of pride to understand and accept a true roadmap to true equality. It's this way now, and always will be. Meanwhile within it all planted in all faiths; some radical sect within, willing to take lives. With a warped understanding of their faith, turning it all into a sad bloodbath, with victims on all sides.martyrs, heretics, misguided love, and all the things that drive men mad.

My advice, love your life, hold it precious, and remember that the lives around you are just as precious, even if they don't understand it, you do, and therefore, you should love them as yourself. peace

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Some may think that the rationalist view would save humanity; looking at the news today, it may seem difficult to argue. The only beef I have with it, is that the ending of a rationalist doesn't work for me, it's not dramatic enough. And where's the compassion? Anyways, although these things are happening, let's not hate on religions, it's just not healthy. Peace.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Believe in something, believe in nothing, call people mindless fools for their choices is totaly unjustified

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Steve, your logic really is overwhelming : you will make us believe that religous minorities persecute the majority. If you do not know the facts about religous persecutions it would be better to say nothing.

6 ( +5 / -0 )

as i've always said, the real enemy is extremism.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

So Steve, you do not like us Jewish people either? We never did anything to you.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Steve do not adress your views to me on a personal basis, I niether agree with them nor do I find them logical.Everyone has the right to recognise a Higher power or deny it Your views are as predudiced as the religios you critisise

4 ( +4 / -1 )

@kitsuki14: as i've always said, the real enemy is extremism.

NO, no, no, no, no... The REAL enemy has and always will be religion. It is nothing more than manipulating (brainwashing) the minds of the young (usually by their parents) and gullible adults. It shields them from independent critical thinking and seeking true facts about our world and the universe we live in. Tell me again religious believers, how old is the planet earth????

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Ms O'Neill; believeing in things is fine, but lliving your life from fairy tales is mindless and they are fools and suckers who damage the world or the rest of us.

Excellent post Steve. But, as always, we fellow critical thinkers will never overcome the stubborn avoidance of truth which religious folk are masters at, because they prefer a 'Matrix' lifestyle.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I told you so. From the beginning, sensible observers warned that the much-touted "Arab spring" will turn out to be a dark Shariah winter.

The authoritarian regimes in Arab countries kept the islamists at bay. Remove them, and what you get is not secular democracy (as your deluded Western politicians believe) but Shariah hellholes where the the islamists are in power.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Steve,

Its rare but l do agree with you on this one. How often do we hear of murders, attacks, wars being perpetrated because or in the name of religion. I guess some people are to wrapped up in believing in non existent fairy tales to actually open their eyes and see what is being done in the name of what they falsely worship. Sad really.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Although Jewish by blood, I do not give a rats hiney about silly religions. Brings too much war to the world.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sorry this is happening.

Steve, just soem news for you, yes, atheists/agnostics DO persecute....even moreso than muslims....

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

All readers stay on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

for once i agree 100% with steve, religion, ALL religion is just for mindless weak fools, christians, jews, muslims etc all the same.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The jaan situation is "less" recent. And also different. The japanese people regret what was done, but there hasn't been an official apology because those in government now deny accountability.

Also, jaan doesn't continue to rape and pillage. These people are attacking on almost a weekly basis...

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This revolution did not prepared well and have no sensible leader. It is very difficult to deal with the aftermath. I hope that the region establishes an order as the broad-minded society.

I want to call them "mindless fools", but religions seem to make people narrow-minded. Without religious belief, won't you be able to stay sensible and to get along with others?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

WilliB,

"Dark Shariah winter". You should be a fiction writer. Your excellent use of hyperbole is perfectly suited to it, as is your ability to conjure crises out of thin air.

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I think, that without religion, you end up with hallowed out society, which may have all the answers, but...the emotional condition of the society maybe harmed. And if you think people are depressed now. Just think if, every one understood life to be, you live, you die, no heaven, no hell, no virgins, no nirvana, no spaceship, no chance of coming back as someone or something else. We jest, but truly with out these hopes, people of all societies; if they lose these things, and are not united as one, they will either create unorganized mayhem, or commit suicide. But, with the hope, whatever hope that might be, society has a point in which it can concentrate, and the human will concentrate a plethora of emotions to the religious experience, this is good for the human condition, it makes life with living. When we see he'll on earth situations, we frown, but I argue, that without religion, and/or faith a God beyond us, life and death would be indiscriminate, and decided like a food chain, or cold and calculated, and completely void of any retribution, mourning, guilt. No, no, people educate the populace on the things they believe, really dedicate to the people, don't control them. And I believe that only in true wisdom can people be freed. The milliondallar question is, where will that wisdom lead us? I think that is the biggest fear of all when we get down to it. fear, fear of, what if we are wrong. peace.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Islamic fundamentalists"

These are the idiots who would ban Samba festivals worldwide if they could.

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Serrano, forget about nice samba festivals, these same Taliban backwards, inbred good for nothing terrorists, well, kiss good bye to even MUSIC, no music anytime anywhere and DANCING! No, no, their views on those 2 evil forms of fun just will get you flogged and beaten to death by stoning in public, not to sure if Egypt is that bad but my friends from Iran, well they would rather live in Fukushima than to even think of going back to their repressive country, so, yes, even if Steve have Christians, I really doubt that he has that much hate in his heart, he is no Taliban, maybe just not happy with JWs coming to knock on his door, early Sunday morning kind of thing, right Steve old boy??

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What? No Samba? You see? You push people only so far, and you get travesty. Long live Samba. They shall oppress, but never destroy!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Yes long live Samba, Reggea, hip hop, classical music and all the beautiful music and dances from around the world, that a few pesky nutty Taliban think to not be suited for humanity, but me thinks, these idiot religious freaks are the ones who are not suited to be real humans, so I do hope the Egyptians get their $hit together, Muslims can kill each other off?? No, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus etc..first we are all human, time to get over this BS of dividing the human race over religion, then and only then can we really call ourselves truly human. NMRK

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@steve,

but that would be just another item on your long list of things to ban?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Elbuda Mexicano Amen. That is when we can call ourselves truly humans. When we stop dividing ourselves by our religion and learn to show respect to each other.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

And that is my final word on the topic.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don't get it! There are Copts in Egypt being treated as second class citizen, they are even being killed, and they protest against this unfair treatment. Yet the only response they are getting here is :"Only renounce your religion,and everything will just turn out fine!" Is this not the most unbelievable fairy tale of mindless people? It seems that the most ineffective religion of all is the religion of those who pretend they had no religion and look down on others.

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sojherde; The thing you are failing to understand is this. These peoples beliefs are dividing Egypt and much of the region.They behave like this because of religion, they hate others because of their religion.If you believ in yourself you are free and do not need to live your life by books allegedly written thousands of years ago.Thjese groups are supposed to love their fellow man.... but don't.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

At least, 4 billion people follow a religion and the majority of them live in peace. I would defend the right to follow a religion with the same amount of vigor I would, defending my right not to follow one.

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To be frank, I'm quite disgusted at how some people who have no knowledge on the issue jump into conclusions that Muslims have no respect to other religions, and the Arabs should didn't deserve a revolution for democracy.

The issue was simply like this:

To build a church in Egypt, like to build any other building of special purpose, you need to have a license. The builders of the church seemed not to bother with the issue. The authorities, in order to force rule in a country in transition stage, decided to remove the building. Christian Egyptians went into a peaceful demonstration to express their disagreement. (which is their right) There are some groups amongst Egyptians are interested in destabilizing the country as they will have a better chance to get into power (the people who were in power before the revolution, which I doubt are even Christians). This group have attacked the army with firearms, and caused 4 deaths among soldiers. An eye witnesses Muslim woman, who was participating in the demonstration alongside her Christian brothers, say that the trouble makers were located at a completely different place (from where the peaceful demonstration was). The Egyptian government had formed a party to investigate what happened, assuming that there were a conspiracy (which most of people in Egypt believe).

Some read a single article from associated press and start judging others.

@JapanGal

Why do the muslims think they are the only and correct way. Losers.

So Steve, you do not like us Jewish people either? We never did anything to you.

Nobody hates you don't worry. Though it's apparent that you hate Muslims (at least you think they are losers, this was mentioned explicitly in your own words). Just can't figure out how a person could manage to hate a whole group.

@WilliB

I told you so. From the beginning, sensible observers warned that the much-touted "Arab spring" will turn out to be a dark Shariah winter.

You seem to be very knowledgeable my friend. And only knowledgeable people like you deserve democracy, not the likes of the Arab barbarians.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

zich ; Yeah at least 4 billion people follow religion and look at the state of the world. You proved my point about religion in a good and concise manner. I would defend my right not to be exposed to their bigotry and intolerence. The poor victims in Egypt are feeling the pain of religous hatred.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@Steve

The issue in Egypt is purely political, and have less to do with religion (though it looks religious from the outside). But yes, I do agree with you on the issue that the followers of the Abrahamic religions are causing too much headache for everyone. And to sit a side, is a thing they will never be able to do. Muslims will always try to convert others to their religion. Many Christian missioners do the same, and many non-missioners could just feel sorry for your lost soul. And Jews are god chose, so I wouldn't even dare to criticize.

Still to others who thumbed down my previous comment. It shows just how open minded you are. Instead of telling opposite facts to what I mentioned, some seem to stick to their beliefs regarding the issue with no need to even consider any other opinions. After all, things seems quite clear to them, there are two religions, one is good and one is bad.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The problem isn't religious fundamentalism, but Islamic fudamentalism. You don't see too many Hindu fundies or Jewish fundies or Jainist fundies slamming hijacked aircraft into buildings, do you? The problem is that many/most Islamic countries are populated with uneducated and uncurious people. Progress pretty much stopped 10 centuries ago for them, except in the tools they can use to hurt those who don't share their beliefs.

In general, though, athiests have caused far more death and destruction in the past century than have believers of any faith. From Pol Pot to Mao to Stalin to Hitler to the Kims of North Korea, they are responsible for untold millions of deaths.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@DS

many/most Islamic countries are populated with uneducated and uncurious people.

Neither you seem to be curious enough to know much about Muslim countries. At least, from what you said, I could expect that you learn about Muslims from Fox News.

And you go further and claim that Hitler was an atheist. Hitler was a Christian, he himself stated that. It's obvious that you are a religious Christian. Not much different from the Muslims with whom I argue a lot.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@DS

You don't see too many Hindu fundies or Jewish fundies or Jainist fundies slamming hijacked aircraft into buildings, do you?

Yes, you don't see too many of these "fundies" on Fox News. But the violence among the Hindu fundamentalists is much considered an internal issue of India. And Jewish fundamentalists in Israeli settlements in Palestinians territories have already burnt two Mosques only in the last couple of weeks (2 Mosques in the last couple of weeks). Even the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) are complaining from the increasing activities of Jewish fundamentalists (only a couple of days ago).

I will go back to the typical advice. TV is good. Still it's important to read foreign newspapers to have a multidimensional view on any issue.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Egyptian Christians and Jews there are quite powerful that control key industires, stock market, most commerce, engineering sector, gold, diamonds, manufacturing, IT etc and hence why a minority is often bashed..

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Egyptian coptic christians are the TRUE descendents of the Pharoahs, muslims arent ethnically Egyptian, some converted and others are arabian, not the TRUE Egyptian..

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There is a lot of muslim denominaitons though, sunni muslims are modern and dont need to wear vales or ninja uniforms, the extreme terror types are shiat, salafi etc, though sunni which are more modern are the ones in Egypt and other countries, the issue in Egypt at the moment is from the salafi minority..

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Christianity first evolved from Israel to Egypt then westwards..

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"Christians under siege in post-revolution Egypt "

The revolution is not over yet.

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Finally Associated Press giving more detailed insight for a change into the background of the people and the event itself.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Egypt's GDP was at 7% before the protesting and now is at 6%, the economy would be superseded if the Christians took control and would increase to 9% if there was no muslims in power..

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Though they are the highest in terms of economic reforms on the list by the international monetary fund of developing countries.

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Looks like there is going to be a very BLOODY civil war in Egypt. 72 million screaming Muslims vs 8 million Christians. If you look at the death tolls by the Communist Chinese and Communist Russians, it is easy to see all of the Christians being killed.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@YuriOtani I doubt it would work that way.. if Christians control most of the economy, banking, stock market, finance ministry etc then they do bow down to them yet are threatened also, hence why recent escalations..

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Majority is threatened by the minority which runs the country.. so obviously the majority is threatened..

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anglootaku, so that is the excuse for killing, forced religious conversions or driving away the religious minority. Sounds a lot like the Nazis and the Jews pre WWII. Sir, you really need to take a close look at what you write.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@YuriOtani Please re-read carefully all what I wrote, I am saying this does happen, when minorities are to powerful, majority get annoyed, they should harm no one.. they should accept everyone regardless of who they are or status they have etc.. they the salafi muslim minority are triggering the hate with the sunni majority and christian minority..

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You gave the right example, the nazis were annoyed at the jews success, which is evil, why didnt they all just get a long, no religion should be a dominant thing and should not clash with others..

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(I am for the minority if you havent figured it out)

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@anglootaku

The theory of successful minority could work somewhere else. But in Egypt it's simply invalid. The most successful people in Egypt are the ones who served in the army and made a transition into businesses, and the ones of previous ruling party who merged businesses with politics.

To prove my point, the later were the first to get arrested, while the former were not touched. For now, people can't target ex-military officials, provided that the military is ruling Egypt in the transition period. And these who are really hated by the people, not your minorities (Christians or whoever might be). For instance, Ahmad Ez was sentenced to 10 year imprisonment only a week ago, who was the most well know in merging businesses with politics.

Concerning Christians (call them them Christian minority if you want). They need no help, neither sympathy from anyone. As I wrote previously on this thread, the conflict is purely political, but have taken a religious conflict look where ordinary Christian people were thrown in the middle. The Egyptian government is working on this, and this shall not be repeated as long as all Egyptians are awake and aware of the root of these issues.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

It is funny how the defense of Islam always come on the heels of the latest atrocity withe the cry of 'it's only the radical elements'. But there seem to be more and more intolerant, radical elements, in more and more parts of the world - and the violence never seems to be wholly - and whole-heartedly - rejected by the Islamic community as a whole, but rather just tossed aside by the apologists as 'just another extremist group'. Doesn't it seem like the extremist groups are slowly but aggressively taking over the normal, non-violent Islamic world? At least to a degree.

I find this worrisome, and call me an alarmist if you will.

We constantly dismiss it as 'oh, just a few radical Muslims' in now way representative of the whole. True, but a few radical Muslims grow to be quite a few radical Muslims, each converting a few more - particularly susceptible in tough economic times (like post - WWI Germany). Add to it the fact that a seemingly moral-less view of killing anyone who does not agree with them (particularly the 'evil west') and access to a seemingly endless supply of weapons designed to kill mass numbers.

Call me an alarmist, a bigot - whatever you wish. I'm just pointing out lessons learned from history. What's the old saying - those that refuse to listen are destined to repeat.

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anglootaku, well we Shaw see. I think the killing has already started in mass. Soon the Egyptian Army will round them up and place them into camps. While the UN is debating and China and Russia is obstructing doing NOTHING the minority will be killed. The Egyptian Army will receive help from Muslims from all over the world. On one side the New Libya government will support Egypt. Then Israeli would be on the other, do not think they would risk war to help Christians. Then there is Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc to help exterminate the Christians. All of this has happened before and will again, killing Christians is as "old school" as it comes. Japan was among them in the 1600s. Why should any of this surprise people?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@YuriOtani

I think the killing has already started in mass. Soon the Egyptian Army will round them up and place them into camps.

Sorry to say it this way, what nonsense are you talking about. Do you understand what you are saying? Pay more attention to what people who are closely related to this region write on this issue (my comments for instance). Read online resources on the issue from Egypt. I bet there are online Egyptian newspapers in English, and you should have a clue that no serious harm is surrounding Christians in Egypt. The death tolls among Christians are as much as among their Muslim brothers, which both resulted by the temporal political instability in the country.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So let me understand this - vladrin you are categorically stating that there is no persecution of Egyptian Christians by Muslim groups, or anyone else - outside of any normal persecution that anyone of any given faith might be subjected to?

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@TigermothII

It is funny how the defense of Islam always come on the heels of the latest atrocity withe the cry of 'it's only the radical elements'

Do you know what radicals of other religions have done in the past week, or it's not broadcasted on your favorite News channel. Obviously, you need to read more, and from other parts of the world. I will not start pinpointing, but I already mentioned that two Mosques were burned by radical Jews in the last couple of weeks in the Palestinian territories (you can read what I wrote previously).

I mentioned it many times, and I will mention it again. The mentality of many Christians that they are better than Muslims, and the opposite one, where Muslims think they are better than the others. Then throw some Jews in the middle. And you will have a world war thanks to the three groups of you.

I think all of the religious people should try to be open minded, and less judging. Especially that the comments of most of you show pure ignorance on these matters. And you always tend to see a religious dimensions in it all, when many of the conflicts are purely political. It's just like looking for another holy war.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@TigermothII

So let me understand this - vladrin you are categorically stating that there is no persecution of Egyptian Christians by Muslim groups, or anyone else - outside of any normal persecution that anyone of any given faith might be subjected to?

If you are talking in general. There are radicals/ignorant on both side, who are few by the way. There were prosecution of people who converted to Christianity, and prosecution to people who converted to Islam (by both sides). Both of them were used in the latest days of Husni Mubarak's regime to shift the focus from the rising revolution. There is evidence that the bombing of a Church during the revolution was ordered by Habeeb Al-Adeli (the Interior Affair Minister back then), and it's likely that he will be hanged for this as he is now under prosecution. This is a pure example of people of the previous regime using the Muslim-Christian issue to shift the focus.

As for the latest events, there were eyewitnesses that said that start of the chaos was started by an outsider group that targeted the military with firearms. For now, it's believed that this group is among the remains of the previous regime. Currently, the government is investigating the latest conflict.

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Bah it isn't muslims the problem it's religion as a concept in general, twined with an un-educated and majority population.

It's easy to point finger and mutter about "sharia winter" conspiracies. The Jewish state has escalated problems, the Palestinians are a pain in the ass...

Third world stupidity is the culprit, in this cas Islam being the tool.

Heh, once again I salute the country where I reside, where religion is treated in the manner of a sex-bent. Don't force it on others especially not the weak-minded or the young, and keep it in private!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Madverts - where are you from - I need to move there.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Madverts

Couldn't agree with you more. Though I envy you for where you live. Currently I live in a completely opposite place to where you are living now.

@TigermothII

Madverts - where are you from - I need to move there.

Why would you want to move there? To cause religious conflicts with your views :) Just kidding.

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I haven't the personality for it. Plus I don't have a beard. Seems like all the religious types have to have a flowing beard. Mine just comes in patchy and doesn't look right at all.

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Tigermoth,

I reside in France since 98, but I'm British :)

I fancy voting here in next years presidentials (yeah I reside and pay taxes here but cannot vote - go Europe!) So I'm in the motions of aquiring a French passport to join Her Majesty's. My lawyer warned me but I was suspect about the official quesionnaire, which some questions concern laicism and ask open questions on the same subject. Colonialism they screwed up BIG, but lessons on this subject are clear. And visionary IMO.

Many things here seem backwards or even upside down. But the speparation of church and state, and continued reform and legislation to protect said laicism, almost excuses a lot of stupidity this side of the pond.

Egypt's military rulers should take note. Anyone prepared to make such a fundemental decision on their own lives, let alone anyone elses live based solely on "faith" need to be shown the bedroom/religious area's door and be told to keep it to themselves.

And rightly so.

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vladrin,

I do not believe what is written in the Egyptian Papers. Not for a single minute, phooey Military Start propaganda. The people in extreme danger are the Jews in Egypt. Soon there will be no Jews outside of Israel and the USA. Anyhow the Muslims are behind the killing of the Christians and I stand behind my brothers and sisters in Christ.

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Stay on topic please. The Nazis are not relevant to this discussion.

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@YuriOtani

I do not believe what is written in the Egyptian Papers.

It's not that you read Egyptian papers to begin with. But talking about Egyptian papers, they are the most advanced in the Arab world. Even during Husni Mubarak's time, they were very democratic, and much more democratic they became. It's strange that you talk about Military propaganda, provided that the journalists criticize the military regime the most.

Anyhow the Muslims are behind the killing of the Christians

Based on what? As far as I know, there were not two parallel demonstrations to begin with (one Muslim and one Christian). There were only one demonstration, led by Christian, and had some Muslim participants who went in support of Christians. The chaos began when the military forces in charge of the security were attacked with firearms, then 4 soldiers had been killed, and happened what happened during the chaos. So where are Muslims in the whole conflict I just can't see what you imply exactly?

I stand behind my brothers and sisters in Christ

If you want to stand behind your 8 million Christian brothers and sisters (a division based on religion), then there are roughly 70 million Egyptian Muslims who can stand behind their Muslim brothers and sisters. Fortunately, Egyptians don't live in a jungle. Egyptians live in a democratic state, and such conflicts will be resolved through official routes, not based on who stands behind who, and who has the most support.

Maybe you should be less paranoid, and have a more open view on the world. Then people on the other side will less likely look like devils to you.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Personally I don't care what or who believes in what. This goes for all religions "You can believe in rocks for all a care, just as long as you don't throw those rocks at me."

While many religions have had their sordid pasts, some developed into a stable platform that encourage the goodwill and intent to take care of others and the world around them. Unfortunately only one advocates for goodwill of only those who are of the same faith, and demands the destruction of others who don't not believe in that same faith.

Religious beliefs are only for each individuals self governance, not the governance of others. Athiesm is also for the governance of one's self, not for the governance of others. My own personal experiences through life have shown me a lot of things and helped me open my mind to many theories and comprehension of this universe.

While believing in a religion may help and encourage a person in their quest for meaning and existance, there are always those that take it too far, and cause harm to cultures societies, and countries because of their extremist views. But the same also applies to atheism who and claim there is no higher power and assume that all religious aspects are bad and should be abolished.

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@HonestDictator

I agree with the soul of your idea. But issue is that on this forum, I find the ones who attack Muslims the most, are both Christians and Jews (not atheists or Buddhists for some reason). And when I argue with Muslims, they always complain of the western Christians and Jews. Now, if you read what atheists say on this forum, they tend to say that Christians are not better from Muslims, so leave the islamophobia aside as it should do no good at best, and bring another war at worst. Now when I argue with eastern atheists, Arab atheists for example, you find them non-suspicious to westerns (both Christians and Jews), unlike their Muslim counterparts.

Now here is the position of a person like me who hears both religious and atheists at both sides (east and west). And for some reason, the voice of judging, phobia and war is coming from religious people at both sides. While I find that for some reason, atheists have a more relaxing and less judging attitude.

Now I don't think that I'm the only one who has such feeling. And from here you hear atheists complaining about religious people in general, as they know their attitude is to flame more conflicts, when we have more serious issues like having 8 million die of hunger every year, more than a billion people starving on a daily basis, more than 15,000 rape cases in Kongo last year alone, and the list goes on. Yet some find the time and patience to pick a fight with people who have a religion other than theirs, and be so much concerned about it.

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@vladrin Are you kidding? ahaha it wasnt only the people from military to become successful.. if you read my previous posts, they have done a lot of reforms and are actually on the top of the list for reforming countries for FDI (foreign direct investment) etc . Take the Sawiris family, they have several companies under their Orascom conglomerate, Orascom Telecom that owns mobile phone companies in Asia, Canada, Italy, Greece, Russia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, IT companies, datacenters, localized search engines in certain countries etc, Orascom Construction, owns construction and cement companies in France, Egypt, Belgium, US, Europe. Orascom Hotels owns hotel resorts in Switzerland, Maldives, Asia, Europe etc. Orascom Headquarters being based in Egypt by Christians and who have no ties to the military at all..

Yes your right on some part, some people may have been involved with the gov, but not directly with the military, no different to how Chinese do business with their government.. Egypt is technically democratic to an extent yet thankfully its not got sharia law, I think if that ever came into place by those idiot brotherhoods or salafi minorities then they will destroy Egypt and turn it into Iran, I really do not hope this happens.....

I also think if there is further civilian unrest with all people, there may be Nato intervention yet again.. though I hope this also does not happen too. As there is the good and bad in all cultures, I am not saying all muslims are bad here.. cause that would be stereotyping, but I really do not like the muslim brotherhood or salafi as they are the ones doing secterian violence, generally sunni muslims arent that bad.

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@YuriOtani I agree with you, Jews and Christians in Egypt are united in a lot of ways, Jewish friends of mine have actually told me, they feel the true Jewish descendents came from the Egyptians, as they and Moses being Egyptian fled Egypt to Israel (this is what I was told by my Jewish friend) anyway point being I think there should not be any religious involvement within government and for the only concern is economic development and education, no religious or extreme views or any other discriminatory conduct... whether hidden in propaganda or other biased things..

Thank god for the internet.. all the protests that happened in the region was organized online! by facebook, twitter etc

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@vlad.

Nice dodge on Hitler. You mention he is Christian (possible but endlessly debatable), yet conveniently fail to acknowledge the other four main murderers of the 20th century who were all devoutly athiest. Namely Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the Kims. I'll take your concession as closing the issue then.

As for Egypt, it is a country with a history of religious persecution, particularly in modern times. The Jewish population in Egypt has been reduced by 99% since the 1967 War, with some being murdered and most fleeing the country after years of being targets of theft and abuse. Similar numbers can be seen in most other African/Arab nations in that time. I wonder why, if Islam is so tolerant....

As for the Christian population of Egypt, they are subject to systematic and legal discrimination at many levels. They are not able to participate in the education system, military, government, etc. Those who convert TO Christianity come in for even worse treatment. The government also effectively forbids the construction, repair, or even maintenance of churches by law. These laws are, of course, not enforced on mosques, which can be built and maintained freely.

Fox News? Sorry, I don't watch it. Not a fan, and it isn't available here. Nice try at a drive by smear though.

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@DS That isnt entirely true, the education and everything else is available to them, they are the most educated in Egypt and abroad.. Egyptians ARENT arabian.. they may speak the language, but what do you expect from colonial tyrants.. no different to how countries speak English, that doesnt make everyone British..

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Less than one or two hundred Jews left in Egypt these days, used to be tens of thousands. Most institutions have quotas on Christians and Copts that are far lower than their proportion of the population. How many Christians are in the military? The police? The bureaucracy? The Pew Forum lists Egypt as one of the worst 10 countries in the WORLD for religious freedom.

Another charming statistic- the WHO estimates that more than 90% of Egyptian females have been subject to genital mutilation.

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@DS

Another charming statistic- the WHO estimates that more than 90% of Egyptian females have been subject to genital mutilation.

This if an African problem, not an Islamic problem. Not sure though what this has to do with the subject. Still, you seem to be enjoying your time rubbishing other cultures.

yet conveniently fail to acknowledge the other four main murderers of the 20th century who were all devoutly atheist

And not sure from where do you get your numbers and go and say that atheists murdered the most. There is one well known statistics, which concerns world war victims, and none of the persons you mentioned had a direct contribution to it (Except for Soviet Union, that were on the defensive).

I would have had more self satisfaction if I had your simplistic/arrogant view of the world, where your culture/religion is right, and others are wrong. Thus I'm talking about the fact that may be a lot of religious people need to have a more open minded and a more relaxing attitude toward others with different beliefs. Just try to think less in who-is right-and-who-is-wrong way, and you will probably make more friends and less enemies.

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vladrin, the middleeast countries are the worse in the world about religious tolerance. Iran might have already killed that convert to being Christian. I consider both Jews and Muslims to be believers. So much of our core beliefs are the same. The old testament is suppose to be like the Hebrew Torah. Muslims have the same belief but do not believe in Christ but he was a prophet. My point in most Muslim countries it is illegal to be Christian or Jewish. If not illegal a gang of thugs will come and kill you. Egypt is quickly going down this path.

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vladrin, I must admit that I'm not certain I fully understand your points exactly, but you seem to me to be saying that current violence is not related to Islamic fundamentalists, but is rather shared equally whether Christian or Muslim. And DS throws in rightly so that while religious fervor does too often result in violence/murder of one's fellow man, atheists are not historically innocent either. From a purely historical perspective, I would agree with all. Christians spent many centuries in slaughtering those that would not believe, and certainly some of our more prolific mass murderers were 'godless' and without a soul. Perhaps Buddhists and Hindus are a bit more down to earth, but I'm certain they have their moments as well.

But the more important point relevant to the world situation today is not looking at the past, or dwelling in a medieval mindset, but rather a rejection of the barbarisms of the past and as a great and brilliant man once said 'move forward into broad, sunlit uplands'. Sure today you get instances of religious extremist violence from Christians and other groups, but not such a steady diet as that of Islam. You, nor anyone else, can white-wash the fact that traditional, hard-line Islam is not a faith of tolerance, peace and brotherhood - unless you are a brother Muslim. Religious freedom and tolerance is a great thing, but I tend to agree with Madverts in the sense that do what you wish - as long as it only affects yourself - and keep it to yourself. Live your life how you believe it should be lead to bring you closer to your god, but leave the rest of us out of it. The Islamic extremists cannot let sleeping dogs lie, and while it is argued they are a small minority compared to the multitude, they have guns, bombs and rocket launchers - tends to make them more of an issue. I have little doubt that these extremists are targeting Christians in Egypt, despite what the newspaper say (we all know how impartial state run newspapers can be). But for the grace of God/Buddha, Allah [Insert your deity of choice] it could be the other way around. But I suspect that it isn't.

Nope, it's time to move into the 21st Century and keep the systems that were developed (or at least modified as such by the flaws of man) primarily to keep the poor from killing the rich and keep the masses cowed by superstition behind the closed doors of one's home or place of worship.

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@vlad

I don't enjoy rubbishing other cultures. More often, they do it to themeselves.My view of the world is one of social justice and equality. It's based on accepted international standards and human rights, and international treaties which all members of the United Nations are bound to uphold. Countries like Egypt flout those obligations openly and nothing is done.

I'm not a cultural relativist by any means, that is true. I don't think all cultures are equal and deserve equal treatment or respect. Some are objectively better than others.

@yuri

Actually, historically speaking Muslim countries were fairly tolerant of the other Abrahamic religions. Non muslims weren't treated equally, and had to pay special taxes and penalties, but they were more or less protected from violence and physical persecution. It was called being "dhimmi", or "protected person". That state of affairs ended with the coming of political Islam and the Islamist movement in the second half of the 20th century. Previously moderate/secular countries like Iran, Turkey, etc. have all moved in the direction of intolerance and extremism. That's the reason for today's situation where apostasy (converting FROM Islam) is a death penalty offence in so many places.

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@DS Another charming statistic- the WHO estimates that more than 90% of Egyptian females have been subject to genital mutilation.

Not sure where your getting this information from but it is completely wrong they don't do it there.. whatever source you read it from is negative and biased.

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@DS

Yes, but often what seems to be an objective assessment to one, appears to be subjective to another. I don't want to start pinpointing as it should serve only a negative purpose, but still, in different standards one could find discrimination of Arab citizens in Israel at very high levels. Still I don't want to get into this conversation, as I said it shall server no purpose. Thus I say, it's easier for all of us to try to judge each other less.

@TigermothII

I agree with you on almost everything you said. But the issue is that Islamic radicals are being broadcasted and re-broadcasted again and again. For instance, two mosques were burnt last week in Palestinian territories by fundamentalists among Jewish settlers. But this is not broadcasted. One point I would like to mention is that Muslims treat atheists much worse than Christians and Jews. Which in turn, makes my interaction with many of them miserable. But still, I think these problems are solved by better education and tighter integration of different cultures, not by flammatory remarks often written by religious people of other groups. Malaysia and Turkey for instance have made a successful transition to a moderate version of Islam. And other Islamic countries should follow that path, but only with trust and mutual respect we can achieve that goal.

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I'm sure discrimination exists in Israel, but it is far different than Egypt. Not state sanctioned, legally enshrined, etc. Israel has Muslim/Arab members of parliament. Can the same be said for Copts/Jews in Egypt? And you are right, mosque burning is also despicable. However, following that crime a group of 1000 rabbis issued a public statement denouncing the act. If only we could see similar support for the Copts...

Anglo;

My information is from the World Health Organization and also UNICEF. Not biased sources at all.

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DS, yea what you wrote is history and not today. I would be treated worse than a dog in most of those middle east Muslim countries. There is freedom of religion in America and Japan. There is little in most Muslim countries. The bible is illegal in most of them. America's "friends" Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan have no freedom of religion. The Americans should wise up, pull out and let them sink in the hells of their own making. There is nothing we can do to prevent the societies from self destructing. A Yuri prediction is Libya and Egypt will sink into chaos and soon. They will become just like Somalia and there is nothing we can do to prevent it.

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@DS My information is from the World Health Organization and also UNICEF. Not biased sources at all.

hehe well I am afraid it is..

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well all this logical input is a good argument for faith

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