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Critics on left and right slam Greece debt 'coup'

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I'm not an expert on this, but I'm getting the sense that Germany went too far. Humiliation shouldn't be a part of negotiation between allies.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

If Greece has been a dishonest borrower and insincere reformer, Germany has been a greedy and foolish lender. The debt will never paid off and all these same, stupid issues will keep stupidly resurfacing until the troika realizes there isn't anywhere else to run to avoid facing the music. Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results was what Einstein called insanity.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Good. Finally they have to pay for years of financial irrisposibility.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

I much prefer Paul Krugman over Nigel Farage, put simply the economics supposedly underpinning these bailouts just don't stack up.

Killing the European Project....

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/killing-the-european-project/?_r=0

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Cry baby cry, wipe your dirty eyes. If you spend all of your money, then spend billions of other people's money, and then default on repaying it, then you fully deserve to be humiliated. You reap what you sow. If you can't stand being humiliated, then you had best not do stupid things.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm getting the sense that Germany went too far. Humiliation shouldn't be a part of negotiation between allies.

agreed...If memory serves correctly, Germany had massive amounts of debt wiped clean from its slate after both WW1 and WW2... how quickly some people forget...

8 ( +11 / -3 )

This time the creditors are seizing Greece's assets, E50 billion of them. Greece would be better off outside the Euro as it will be crushed by Germany if it remains within it.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

sangetsu03: Cry baby cry, wipe your dirty eyes. If you spend all of your money, then spend billions of other people's money, and then default on repaying it, then you fully deserve to be humiliated.

But what's the point of making terms that cannot be paid back? It's a complete waste of time.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Itsonlyrocknroll:

" much prefer Paul Krugman over Nigel Farage, put simply the economics supposedly underpinning these bailouts just don't stack up.

Killing the European Project....

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/killing-the-european-project/?_r=0 "

Well, I much prefer the Euro-critic Nigel Farage to the big government fan Paul Krugman, but here Krugman is right. This is a coup, and the apparachiks in Brussels behave like the old politbureau in the USSR. Shame!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Cry baby cry, wipe your dirty eyes. If you spend all of your money, then spend billions of other people's money, and then default on repaying it, then you fully deserve to be humiliated. You reap what you sow. If you can't stand being humiliated, then you had best not do stupid things.

The Greek people are not responsible for the massive debt, it was caused by crooked politicians and bankers. This is especially evident now, the Greek people spoke clearly in the recent referendum, their leader ignored them. The Greek people should not be made to pay for this, they should instead follow the example of Iceland and put the crooks in jail. Iceland is doing relatively well.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Crazy Joe:

" If Greece has been a dishonest borrower and insincere reformer, Germany has been a greedy and foolish lender. "

Both Greece and Germany are victims here. Yes, the lenders are irresponsible. But do you expect German taxpayers to pay for Greek loans forever, open-ended? Seriously? In the event, exactly this situation was predicted by the Euro critics, already before the Euro introduction.

Ramzee:

" The Greek people should not be made to pay for this, they should instead follow the example of Iceland and put the crooks in jail. Iceland is doing relatively well. "

Iceland kept its own currency and could therefore do this. If it had entered the Eurozone, it would be as scr**d as Greece.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

None of this (what some people are calling) "economic blackmail" would be happening if respective Greek governments had better managed the country's finances.

I doubt there's a single EU nation that >wants< to bail Greece out again. I'm not sure whether other EU nations are obliged to provide financial assistance to other member couriers, but that's largely beside the point now. This financial crisis isn't any other EU nation's specific problem, but collectively it's all of their problem. 

The other countries are creditors and want their money back - and have every right to do so. I think a key point is they now all acknowledge they >aren't< going to get their money back; which means this next bailout will be more of a gift than a loan - given by governments that don't really want to give, don't have to give, but will anyway.

Based on that, I think the other EU nations that are participating in this bailout deserve a whole lot more credit than they are receiving, as - at least to me - they want to preserve the unity they created the EU for in the first place. 

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Everybody is blaming the creditors, but aren't you all forgetting that Greece lied about the state of their economy and their ability to bear debt to begin with? If you give me false information to convince me to lend you money, and it ends up that you can't pay because you lied about your financial credibility to begin with, that isn't me being a greedy creditor.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Illias:

" Everybody is blaming the creditors, but aren't you all forgetting that Greece lied about the state of their economy and their ability to bear debt to begin with? "

Cry me a river! Everybody knew that Greeks financial statements were fake, but all the politicians were so determined to pull their common currency project through that they were determined to close both eyes. Read newspaper reports from the time, and you know that that was no secret. Remember the open letter to Kohl from 64 leading German economists? They clearly warned that a currency union would automatically lead to either bankruptcy for the weaker states (with Greece as first candidate) or to open ended transfer payments from North to South. (which we are seeing now).

The Euro politicians were ready to ignore all that, and forge ahead. To now complain about Greek cheating is really ridiculous.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Everybody is blaming the creditors, but aren't you all forgetting that Greece lied about the state of their economy and their ability to bear debt to begin with?

Greece did that? Are you suggesting Goldman Sachs was not involved in the lie?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Everybody is blaming the creditors, but aren't you all forgetting that Greece lied about the state of their economy and their ability to bear debt to begin with? If you give me false information to convince me to lend you money, and it ends up that you can't pay because you lied about your financial credibility to begin with, that isn't me being a greedy creditor.

They didn't have to make the terms worse than their last offer. It really serves no purpose other than to punish and humiliate, and could drive a permanent wedge between Greece and Germany. I hope it was worth it.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@hameln

Most sensible comment thus far.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

They didn't have to make the terms worse than their last offer. It really serves no purpose other than to punish and humiliate, and could drive a permanent wedge between Greece and Germany. I hope it was worth it.

They didn't want to, but Greece refused the offer even after it was warned not to do so. Greece wanted a new offer and they got one. Merkel herself think that it isn't worth it. She was leaving the negotiations after 14 hours of talk, supporting the grexit, but Donald Tusk said for her that she isn't allowed to leave the room without some kind of agreement.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"It really serves no other purpose than to punish and humiliate...."

Mmm. Okay wife, this time I'll be Germany. Your turn to be Greece.... ; )

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Hi WilliB, Governor of the bank of England Mark Carney has basically confirmed to GB MPs that it will be a huge struggle to implement the Greek bailout deal. that I quote 'Greece’s debts are not sustainable in their current form'....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Where's Zeus when you need him?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Penfold

Don't take this the wrong way, but....

Are you immensely knowledgable and witty, or was that by chance?

Zeus famously raped Europa in Greek mythology.

You knew that, right? Hence the joke....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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