Culture clash: European art provokes Muslims

Reminds me of the time when someone made a picture of Mary out of poo or something and called it art. No death threats there though, just a lot of disgusted people.

Well, we'll see how everything plays out in the next 10 years.

Twenty years too late. The Salman Rushdie affair should have been the wake up call...

If Muslims and other religious types choose to believe unfounded nonsense, that is up to them. But don't try to tell me what I can and cannot do, particularly when the only basis for your doing so is the words of a "prophet" who managed to convince gullible people that he could communicate with "God".

I find it interesting to note that in the case of France traditional clothing worn by priest and nuns have been bared in some form or another for decades (particularly in schools and public work places), and that in schools also for decades, Yamakas, crucifix and other religious items have also been band and this only became a problem when it tried to enforce it on the headscarf for Muslim women!

Many in France started to think that if they cannot abide by the same rules in the school system as the others, then maybe it was time for more draconian measures enforce the fact that France is not a Muslim country and that living there entitles accepting that it secular!

It should be noted that in all these places that any ban applies only to the lay person and not to religious leaders (Imams, Quran Marriages (Muslim nuns?)etc..) !

Wherever Islam is dominant ignorance, repression and barbarity are the norm. Good thing Europe is waking up to this problem.

Do muslims care what their immigrants think of some of their cultures/practices, you know like women deciding who they marry and when, freedom of speech, not allowing other religions to be practised, etc.?

Art in general is problematic for Mohammed's followers. As far as I can tell architecture is the only one free from the fundamentalist rage that chronologically and or geographically always convulses the ranks of the faithful.

yeah, stop throw fuel on the fire, NOW! ban all of those offensive artwork and writing material as the Muslim asking for. well, don't forget to ban the printing of Koran too, ban some part of it would work too. it is a lot of discrimination writing and a lot of call for revenge and violence to the non-muslimm in that book.

why help keep the free speech work only when it favor the muslim? if they can not stand some expression, how could we?

“I’m actually not interested in offending the prophet. The point is actually to show that you can,” Vilks said in a recent interview with The Associated Press. “There is nothing so holy you can’t offend it.”

Pathetic explanation.

I'm of the opinion, that every time something offends Muslims, and they go on one of their little rampages, or murder sprees, that every newspaper across the free world, should deliberately print something offensive. Every single time. And not just newspapers, but websites etc as well. Just some piece of art that shows what Islam really is, a hate filled religion.

Freedom of speech is a tough call. Respect for what another holds "holy", is something I think important.

Freedom of speech is a tough call. Respect for what another holds "holy", is something I think important.

When the right to murder your daughter for dating outside the faith is held "holy" there is nothing noble about tolerance of such demented mores; in fact, you become something of an accessory to the crime and barbarism.

Minarets are phallic symbols. They should be banned everywhere. :-)

Should the immigrants adopt the values of their adoptive land — or, to the contrary, should society change to accommodate the newcomers who now form part of it?

Immigrants should adopt the values of their adoptive land but in the same time if you are willing to accept immigrants, therefore different cultures, you should be able to also adapt.

Now what I read in above posts, are rants against Muslims.

You play what the extremists want. Amalgamate fundamentalists, moderate in the same package and p*ss them off as much as you can so you can prove your point. You consider them as barbarian as they consider you as infidels. You are both on the same level.

Amalgamation is the favorite tools of the right-wingers. Now, if you are a foreigner and living in Japan, you will understand. Japanese right-wingers take a few foreigners crimes to catalog us all as criminals. Followers don't know any better.

The caricatures were not constructive. Just p*ssing people off and both side fundamentalists and right-wingers were just happy to exploit it as much as possible. This was just plain stupid. Not because I'm scared of Muslims but because it was completely unnecessary.

"European art provokes Muslims" ? yes and it is deliberate.

Art does not "provoke" people to do anything; violence is a most often choice that used by the opportunistic and the weak-minded. The self-esteem of religious fanatics is not a social responsibility.

You play what the extremists want. Amalgamate fundamentalists, moderate in the same package and p*ss them off as much as you can so you can prove your point. You consider them as barbarian as they consider you as infidels. You are both on the same level.

Absolutely. The point is, that if we piss them off enough, every single day, they'll come to expect it. Become inured to it, and realize our beliefs and actions are not the problem, but rather their reactions to us are the problem. If they want Islam to be seen as a religion of peace, threatening to murder anyone who dares do something offensive, is very, very counter-productive.

The caricatures were not constructive.

And in your opinion just how 'constructive' is the Koran, which incites violence against those outside of Islam and against Mohammedans who want to leave the cult?

The people who bomb others for having a different view are wrong and sick people. But to diliberately create controversy does bother me. It's one thing to make social commentary on something, but to go out of your way to offend and hiding it under the banner of free speech just seems so hypocritical. Yes, people make fun of all religions to some degree, and I don't like it when that happens either. The Muslims getting mad, that's not something that's unique to them. The acts of terrorism, however, are disgusting. Murdering people because you don't agree with them... that needs to stop. I don't think creating more controversy is going to fix that, honestly. Unfortunately, there's no clear solution either way...

TumbleDry: wrote:""European art provokes Muslims" ? yes and it is deliberate."

You are correct in this statement, just as the same European editorial cartoonist are now and have before making provocative "art" and caricatures of the Pope and his brother as well as many others in regards to the Catholic church! But you do not see mass protest in Catholic dominated countries calls for the death of these editors and cartoonist or heads of states screaming for and apology!

From what we have seen it is not just the right-wing or "hard line fundamentalist" that went on the rampages but also the so-called moderates! These are the ones who should have taken the lead and explained to the Muslim world that editorial cartons are just that cartoons and meant as a thought provoking media tool and nothing more and to just let it go!

But that is not what we saw what we saw was an all-out attack on the media which in many cases included our own leader!

I am not for any form of attack or discrimination whether religious or racial but I find that all to often those who scream the most are also the most intolerant towards others!

kokorocloud: right-wingers in the western world want to provoke the fundamentalists and push the moderates to the edge for their own agenda.

Molenir: ok. if people insult you day after day, you'll finish by giving up.

Odogma: you take the Koran as serious as the fundamentalists and just the bits that serve your interest. Not constructive.

right-wingers in the western world want to provoke the fundamentalists and push the moderates to the edge for their own agenda.

If you think the film maker Van Gogh,murdered in broad daylight by a Dutch Mohammedan, was a 'right winger' you obviously haven't been following developments in Europe.

Odogma: you take the Koran as serious as the fundamentalists and just the bits that serve your interest. Not constructive.

After 14 000 documented acts of terror since 9-11 alone done in the name of the deity the Koran is all about you could say I do take it seriously, far more than wishful thinkers like yourself.

limboinjapan: "you do not see mass protest in Catholic dominated countries" do you remember Martin Scorsese's "The Last Temptation of Christ"? If not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_ofChrist%28film%29#Protests

The cartoons were cleverly used by fundamentalist to draw attention on themselves and make noise. This noise was in turn cleverly used by the right-wingers to draw attention to them.

Odogma:

If you think the film maker Van Gogh,murdered in broad daylight by a Dutch Mohammedan, was a 'right winger' you obviously haven't been following developments in Europe.

In my above posts, there is a clear distinction between fundamentalists and right-wingers. Distortion doesn't work.

After 14 000 documented acts of terror since 9-11 alone done in the name of the deity the Koran is all about you could say I do take it seriously, far more than wishful thinkers like yourself.

Are you trying to amalgamate? All Muslims in the world are waiting behind the curtain the first occasion to kill us?

if you are willing to accept immigrants, therefore different cultures, you should be able to also adapt.

it can be hard to find anyone able to adapt after see what happen to VanGogh! in fact the word "adapt" should go for foreigner such as us in japan.

Now what I read in above posts, are rants against Muslims. i don't think all of them do so. sometime people telling the truth, but some people view it as discrimination. truth should not be view as discrimination.

The caricatures were not constructive. Just p*ssing people off and both side fundamentalists and right-wingers were just happy to exploit it as much as possible. This was just plain stupid. Not because I'm scared of Muslims but because it was completely unnecessary. if it unnecessary to keep our value, in this case freespeech, then what is necessary to be in a social that believe in it?

it might not be as constructive in your eyes but it is to some that see a need to telling the muslim how stinky their name are right now. and it is a freespeech for some other. the muslims don't like it? make some catoon or film, make fun of the west. well, they did it in some country, and it is totally ok. but definitely not what happen to VanGogh.

they come to the social that believe in freespeech, what are they expecting to see? if they get piss off that easy, will that be any of my problem? if i get piss off equality easy, will that be any of their problem? if it isn't illegal why do anyone have to take it too serious? if they can not understand this simple idea why did they bother to leave home?

i don't think people shouldn't limit their right specially in their home country just because the muslim doesn't like it.

sorry a lot of mis-take above, i click submit too fast.

if you are willing to accept immigrants, therefore different cultures, you should be able to also adapt.

it can be hard to find anyone able to adapt after see what happen to VanGogh! in fact the word "adapt" should go for foreigner such as us in japan.

Now what I read in above posts, are rants against Muslims.

i don't think all of them do so. sometime people telling the truth, but some people view it as discrimination. truth should not be view as discrimination.

The caricatures were not constructive. Just p*ssing people off and both side fundamentalists and right-wingers were just happy to exploit it as much as possible. This was just plain stupid. Not because I'm scared of Muslims but because it was completely unnecessary.

if it unnecessary to keep our value, in this case freespeech, then what is necessary to be in a social that believe in it?

it might not be as constructive in your eyes but it is to some that see a need to telling the muslim how stinky their name are right now. and it is a freespeech for some other. the muslims don't like it? make some catoon or film, make fun of the west. well, they did it in some country, and it is totally ok. but definitely not what happen to VanGogh.

they come to the social that believe in freespeech, what are they expecting to see? if they get piss off that easy, will that be any of my problem? if i get piss off equality easy, will that be any of their problem? if it isn't illegal why do anyone have to take it too serious? if they can not understand this simple idea why did they bother to leave home?

i don't think people should limit their right specially in their home country just because the muslim doesn't like it.

thedeath: you will never avoid someone killing someone else because of his view. If you don't respect someone, don't expect him to respect you in return.

A fringe of both Muslim and non-Muslims (read fundamentalists and right-wingers) are making their best for us all to jump on each other.

Right-wingers want us to be scared of Muslims. Amalgamation is their tool. But that won't work.

Your are free to speak and free to insult whoever you want. The cartoons were just unnecessary. This an amalgamation and an insult.

Myself a foreigner in Japan, I'm living by Japanese rules. But some people will still not try to see for who I am and view me a scary barbarian.

If you don't respect someone, don't expect him to respect you in return.

i do agree, but i know many muslim haven't been taught that. fear is what many of them thing that it will earn them respect.

Your are free to speak and free to insult whoever you want.

now i don't really agree with that. the court is there for people to sue one another for any racial insults. the free world has it system.

to me it is not thing bad for the cartoon. the press is the social best mirror. if the refection is bad needless to blame the mirror. that is what i believe.

if the muslim didn't act as bad as they have done, but they were in fact the nice guy. then some press try to paint them black. it need no muslim to do the action.

TumbleDry: First you made my point! The film the last temptation of Christ did lead to some protest and one incident of violence and was or is still band in a few places but on the whole no calls for death no mass riot etc..!

Second you wrote: "Myself a foreigner in Japan, I'm living by Japanese rules. But some people will still not try to see for who I am and view me a scary barbarian."

I would like to point you to the part where you write "living by Japanese rules"! That is precisely the point! The Muslims living in these countries all to often want special exemptions to the rules (school veils, areas closed off or barring women not modestly dressed from their neighborhoods, etc..)

Being the target of one of these editorial cartoonist is part of living in these countries! All leaders all religions are lampooned or a potential target and if they don't like it well that though luck!

Why must these same cartoonist who so actively lambaste others tip toe around when it comes to Islam!

The Muslims that get worked up about this stuff merely promote more. They are their own worst enemy.

if you are willing to accept immigrants, therefore different cultures, you should be able to also adapt." No! My parents didn't tell the US how things should be, they accepted what was at hand. If we did that, there would be a whole lot more fighting than there already is.

all to often want special exemptions to the rules" You mean like being exempted from those new body scanners?

thedeath:

to me it is not thing bad for the cartoon. the press is the social best mirror.

The cartoons where insulting and are reflecting an amalgamation. Mulsim=terrorist. That is not true.

if the muslim didn't act as bad as they have done, but they were in fact the nice guy. then some press try to paint them black. it need no muslim to do the action.

See. Amalgamation. Did all Muslims behave bad? It's starts with the words you choose.

limboinjapan:

First you made my point! The film the last temptation of Christ did lead to some protest and one incident of violence and was or is still band in a few places but on the whole no calls for death no mass riot etc..!

no. your initial point was if you were insulting Christians, nothing will happen. The protests against "The Last Temptation of Christ" were the result offended Christians. So now, if you want to minimize it this is your choice.

I would like to point you to the part where you write "living by Japanese rules"! That is precisely the point! The Muslims living in these countries all to often want special exemptions to the rules (school veils, areas closed off or barring women not modestly dressed from their neighborhoods, etc..)

This is were I don't agree with the fundamentalists. Most Muslims integrate well without separating boys & girls in swimming pools, etc.

What you are trying to do is amalgamate all Muslims with a fringe of radicals. This is wrong.

skipthesong :

if you are willing to accept immigrants, therefore different cultures, you should be able to also adapt." No! My parents didn't tell the US how things should be, they accepted what was at hand. If we did that, there would be a whole lot more fighting than there already is.

What are you trying to say? Nobody tells my country how things should run. If you are accepting immigrants, you have to let them freely practice their religion, let their children attend school, let them have to same chances in life. Those rights were granted to your parents.

communities and that is not happening with the Muslims. The west has laws that will protect everybody and freedom of speech is a key element of that, something that is not acceptable to the Muslims, and something that is being eroded by making concessions to Muslims. The west is not responsible for what any one wants to believe and the obligation should not be put on the west to defend something that has been imported. Muslims would be up in arms if any Christian country started to demand equal rights in an Islamic country while at the same time Islam demands that the west respect what they want to believe even when it is imported into secular counties. You get respect when you give respect and you will get balance only when that balance is believed in by both sides. At present that is not how Muslims see it or want it.

Well said Grafton.

TumbleDry said: What you are trying to do is amalgamate all Muslims with a fringe of radicals. This is wrong.

Give that man a medal! This is the sort of argument that will gain bend the ears of westerners. Unfortunately the Muslims complaining won't word it like that. They will complain that it is wrong to make images of Muhammad. Like I said, they are their own worst enemy.

grafton, you cannot blame Muslims over here for what Muslim governments do over there. That is just silly. To justify that is to justify taking Americans hostage for what the U.S. government does. Its simply indefensible.

Second, many racist cartoons are effectively banned, not by law, but by copyright protection. It is a luxury that this can be done. Unfortunately, for this sort of anti-Muslim cartoon to get self-censored to that degree, its going to take decades of riots, or worse, just like it did with racist cartoons. http://www.banned-cartoons.com/ I think its the only option, but I wish the media would be more careful about such hate speech on its own today instead of 20 years from now.

TumbleDry: "Most Muslims integrate well without separating boys & girls in swimming pools, etc."

In my country, a country of immigrants we have had people from all over to world Asians in the west and mostly Europeans in the east, over the past 2 decades more and more non Europeans have immigrated there and the only group that has made any "demands" have been the Muslims!

After centuries of separate boys and girls schools and classes under a Catholic controlled system that we finally broke away from, they would like to turn back the clock!

We have had these kind of demands from other groups (Hasidim Jews) who also follow similar things like head-scarfs and modest dress, requesting that streets be closed near their areas on Saturday or that people not modestly dressed be bared from their zones, but they were told no and that if they wish to live there then they must accept the rules. They have their own schools and live their lives as they please and have accepted the fact that if they want to stay then they must accept the secular society around them!

Put this in contrast to the Muslim community that have made the demands of separate classes and swimming hours for boy and girls, different gym cloths, judo and Karate cloths (with headscarf judge to be a distraction to other competitors) and many more such demands and were turned down, the reaction was not to just accept as most previous immigrants did, but to take to the streets in protest scream of discrimination and intolerance and sue in court! Add to all this the increasing incidences of so-called "honor killings"! You now have a good idea why my very racially and religiously divers family now view the Muslim community in my home city with a cautious eye!

In Europe they have it worse with even larger Muslim communities and more demands "not request" for special treatment, "honor killings" and curbs on the press!

This article is titled "Culture clash: European art PROVOKES Muslims" but you have to wonder who is provoking who! When a number of Muslim businesses opened up Halal stores and cafes in a cheap rent area right next to the more than 200 year old drinking and red light section of my home city and then "Demand" that the city close these places down because it is offensives to them! You have to ask who is the provocateur?

limboinjapan said: over the past 2 decades more and more non Europeans have immigrated there and the only group that has made any "demands" have been the Muslims!

Well, blacks no longer need to "demand" that Little Black Sambo be pulled from library shelves! That will change if you put it back though.

With the West locked in conflicts across the Muslim world, why would anyone throw fuel on the fire?

Time for Muslims to roll with the punches like everyone else does in a multi-ethnic society. Or else go back to where they'd fit right in and everyone thinks like they do. In-migration means integration, not special preferences and treatment.

grafton: "because they don't, I won't"? Why are you taking these example? What is your point?

HeyLars: it's not a question of bending your ears. The goal of the cartoon were to amalgamate Islam with terrorism. Making a shortcut to Muslims = terrorists. Was it necessary? Yes or not? The debate is not the freedom of speech. If you want to leave in community, you need to respect the others. Whatever his color or religion. A mixed color and religion community is upsetting right-wingers and extremists from both sides. They will try everything they can to destroy it. They want us to hate each other.

LIBERTAS: totally agree.

limboinjapan:

Add to all this the increasing incidences of so-called "honor killings"! You now have a good idea why my very racially and religiously divers family now view the Muslim community in my home city with a cautious eye!

This is where amalgamation starts.

TumbleDry, unfortunately the art of earbending is necessary to get self-censorship in motion. Pointing out the fact that this is hate speech is the only way to get people to censor themselves. Calling it disrespectful is a sure-fire way to get more of the same, as is calling it "against Islamic rules".

Art like this is meant to provoke. Thats why they do this. To provoke Muslims. While I am fairly tolerant regarding free speech, I am not convinced what people drawing this art is trying to achieve. If it is an expression of anti Muslim xenophobia then I think this art is uncool.

HeyLars; Wrong country and I did say "immigrants" people who voluntarily move there and not people who's ancestor were forcibly brought!

TumbleDry; You conveniently only quoted my last line and ignored everything else!

You will go through life and be offended by what some people do or say...many times. But that doesn't mean people should automatically change because you got offended.

Well, blacks no longer need to "demand" that Little Black Sambo be pulled from library shelves! That will change if you put it back though.

I don't see political correctness as having anything to do with this subject. Oh there are similarities, involving motivation for censorship, but the threat of violence is not the motivating factor, and thus its completely different.

True that Molenir. In case some of them didn't get it, "You made fun of something I think is important! I don't like you or what you stand for!" is better than, "You made fun of something I think is important! I will KILL you!"

limboinjapan said: Wrong country and I did say "immigrants" people who voluntarily move there and not people who's ancestor were forcibly brought!

Do you think the difference is enough that hate speech can be applied against one group but not the other? The only reason I can see to keep the two groups' plights separate is to deceive.

limboinjapan: Amalgamation. I can copy your text and add the same comment.

HeyLars at 11:08 PM JST - 15th March “grafton, you cannot blame Muslims over here for what Muslim governments do over there. That is just silly. To justify that is to justify taking Americans hostage for what the U.S. government does. Its simply indefensible.”

What are you talking about? I admit that for some odd JT reason the first part of what I wrote disappeared but just where do you see any mention of government? And I can’t justify anything because there is nothing for me to justify, because what I would like to see happening in the west simply isn’t happening, so I can’t justify it can I? However your apt example of Muslims taking and killing hostages is happening without any justification while the west bends over backwards to accommodate the sensibilities of immigrant Muslims very often to the determent of the indigenous population and in many cases in contradiction of its own laws. The west has worked hard to bring about equality laws, laws that are meaningless to Muslims who now wish to introduce their own laws to run in parallel to local laws and in many European countries this is being accepted. To most people this simply isn’t acceptable, many people have fought long hard battles to achieve these laws only to now see that selected groups can opt out. The west does have free speech and if the only way to show that to the interloper is to print silly cartoons then so be it. But somewhere a line needs to be drawn that will stop the gradual erosion of western values. And you don’t have the right to tell me I am wrong unless you are also willing to give up your own right to tell me I am wrong and that is a freedom you would not have to give up if you were under Islamic “law”. What you are arguing for is the right for others to take away the rights you have.

grafton: By using Muslims, do you include all Muslims?

Why do you care so much about what other countries with a Muslim majority?

How about taking care of the Muslim community in your country?

Be sure they integrate well? Are they getting the same chances than a white Christian?

Are they all coming or born in your country with the goal to destroy it?

I don't know where you are living but me here in Japan and my home country, I must be passing many Muslims every day. Do they all have the secret desire the society I'm living in or coming from?

Right-wingers want me to think so. Freedom of speech or bending over is not the question. Right-wingers use this to switch the argument.

The problem is respect. The cartoons were an insult. The goal was to create a maximum of noise to be exploited by right-wingers. When you criticize the cartoonists or the method, they reply that you are attacking their freedom of speech to mask but their real intentions.

Is your goal to stigmatize and amalgamate all Muslims as terrorists/western society destroyers? By this simple question, at least I'll able to close the debate and see where you stand.

The problem is respect. The cartoons were an insult. The goal was to create a maximum of noise to be exploited by right-wingers.

Have you ever been to Holland? Do you know anything about this country? It has probably the longest history in modern Europe of what even Leftists would have to admit is a truly tolerant society. You look so ridiculous trying to tell people that the Mohammed cartoons were some sort of right-wing plot to 'stigmatize' the Muslim allies of opportunistic, hypocritical Leftist politicians and voting blocs in Europe.

Holland is not more tolerant than other countries, despite it´s liberal laws the country is run by concervatives, compared to US Holland might come across as tolerant and liberal but that is only because fundamentalist extremist make up 50% of the population in US.

Anyhow, I think some Muslims in general need to chill a bit too. After the Danish news paper JyllandPost which btw is a small town redneck news paper printed the carricatures the Danish Embassies were torched in Lebanon and Syria. Man, I do not know but that is a bit of over reaction, no?

But it has to be seen in a larger content too. When Europe is in various countries on their colonial wars it will create resentment. Right now, lots or 2nd generation Arabs in Europe who was born and raised in Europe have been going back to Iraq to fight the Americans and more are now going to Afghanistan to fight NATO.

It becomes hypocritical to portrait Muslims as fanatics and at the same time be waging wars on behalf of USA.

If irony were like rain that spoils your parade the anti-American leftists on this site would be soaking wet. These stories of anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-immigration rage, insulting cartoons, 'racism' and the murder and violence done by the dispossessed Mohammedan victims of such "redneck" and "extremist" attitudes all come from tolerant, laid-back N Europe (Holland! and Denmark!) or, even more amazing, from the quasi-socialist Nordic nations of Sweden and Norway.

What went wrong?

Odogma: You are hard to follow. Throwing none related arguments doesn't help. What is your point?

TumbleDry

The cartoons where insulting and are reflecting an amalgamation. Mulsim=terrorist. That is not true.

read my post well, you see it as insulting, some might see it as freespeech.

Did all Muslims behave bad? It's starts with the words you choose.

yep, the same comment back at you too. it all start with the worlds you choose. they can keep act as they do and the majority can keep look away, and you can also choose to say that they are... whatever you want. thank for free speech that the muslim try to destroy.

TumbleDry at 12:44 PM JST - 16th March

“By using Muslims, do you include all Muslims?”

Now you are being silly. Given that I have a limited amount of time and space do you seriously require me to delineate exactly which groups I am talking about? You know perfectly well what is being talked about and being obtuse and pedantic hardly aids any true argument you might have.

“Why do you care so much about what other countries with a Muslim majority?”

I think you might wish to write this again filling in whatever is missing because as it is it makes no sense so cannot be answered.

“How about taking care of the Muslim community in your country?”

I do not live in a single country, my work means that I need to travel a great deal and have homes in 3 countries. I am a Caribbean brought up mostly in the UK, Colombia and Spain. And in any of the countries I have lived in or currently live in the Muslim community are well capable of looking after themselves and are to a large degree closed communities to the extent that they would be extremely suspicious of any outsider wanting to “take care of them”.

“Be sure they integrate well? Are they getting the same chances than a white Christian?”

This simply shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. “Integrate well?” Most Muslims would resist integration in to the local communities because for them integration would be seen as a two way street that would involve them having to give up some aspects of their “culture”. As for “same chances than a white Christian?” To a very large degree Muslim communities operate independently of the country they happen to be in, their social and work lives are within their own closed communities. You can have had little to do with Muslims living in other countries if you do not know this.

“Are they all coming or born in your country with the goal to destroy it?”

This question is provocative nonsense and you know it. I am not right wing nor am I paranoid about Muslims. In fact it might surprise you to know that my brother in law is a Muslim, granted a not very good one in so far as he lives a normal life not taking his religion to stupid extremes. Thank you for reading my post and taking the time to show an interest and ask questions. I hope I have helped you gain a somewhat clearer impression of where my concerns are coming form.

Apart from dementedly the dementedly PC UK, western Europe is fast growing with the opinion of "send the buggers back" if they're peeved at our way of life.

The rise of far-right politicians here cashing in on the anti-Islamic fevour running through much of Europe is pretty worrying, despite that I feel the exact same sentiment of the muslims' vastly abject failure of integration after immigration.

"When in Rome do as the Roman's do." very few proper muslims do this. It's either their way or the highway. The mostly moderate muslims are not considered proper muslims by the fundie islamic followers.

Immigration is about integration. The cartoons were not all created to offend, but some were stating that Islam needs to take a more critical look at itself to see why such situations are happening, and how it is representing itself to the rest of the non-muslim world.

It is not easy for Europeans of the Judeo Christian background to understand why Muslims get offended by cartoons of their prophet, movies exposing Muslim men abusing Muslim women etc..so let me see, how about Muslims making books about Christian, say priests and their sexual escapades with young, Christian boys? How about a Muslim artist drawing or painting say, Catholic priests in hot, sexual positions with young Catholic boys? How many European, American etc...Christians would be happy by this kind of work putting on display in Arabic homepages?? Would this be considered culture clash or just artists, who happen to be Muslim, enjoying their freedom of speech??

Hmm, last I checked most of the people in Europe weren't really christian. So they really wouldn't be up in arms about that bro'. Besides, there are already some cartoons about priests abusing young boys as a part of the freedom of speech. Which is interesting considering that it was the Europeans and other western nations that the creators are in and from.

So anyways, your example would be considered them enjoyin their freedom of speech. NEXT argument please.

As Europe is getting gradually islamized, it will have to say good-by to its culture of art, music, and freedom of expression; all of this is haram and will not be tolerated anymore. Europeans should enjoy the twilight years of their contintent.

Madverts:

" Apart from dementedly the dementedly PC UK, western Europe is fast growing with the opinion of "send the buggers back" if they're peeved at our way of life. "

Alas, its too late for that. As the followers of islam are now locally born and brought up in Europe, we are now looking at a home-grown islamist problem, and not one of simple immigration.

As Anwar Al-Awlaqi correctly points out (and Jihad Jane visibly demonstrates): "Jihad is becoming as American as apple pie and as British as afternoon tea"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100319/ts_alt_afp/usattacksyemenawlaqi_20100319210134

It is not easy for Europeans of the Judeo Christian background to understand why Muslims get offended by cartoons of their prophet

I'm offended by legislation in Muslim countries supporting spousal rape, but you don't see me killing anyone over it. I understand why Muslims are offended by sacriligious cartoons. They have the right to be offended. And I have the right to offend them and not be threatened with violence over it.