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Defiant Hamas hits Israel with dozens of rockets

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I guess if Israel is going to have to live with rocket fire either way, they might as well take some of Hamas with them.

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I do not like violence, but Israel needs to cut the balls off Hamas now, but not only in Gaza, but wherever they maybe hiding, Syria, Lebanon etc..this is the only language that terrorists will understand, right?

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Nice to see less rockets being fired at Israel. Keep the pressure on Hamas and the borders closed. Pressure On!

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Israel has no choice but to engage Hamas to stop the Gaza rocket attacks. The US and Europe need to stay out of this. The war will never end until Arabs and Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist. That is not likely to happen anytime soon so any efforts to "negotiate" peace between the two sides is nothing more than a waste of time.

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Nice to see less rockets being fired at the Republicans, keep the pressure on the Democrats and the borders closed. Pressure On!

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Hamas rockets have killed 4 or more people and there also wounded in israel, while gaza death toll now include 300 palestinian dead and 1000 wounded.

International community must help out with medical aid and food aid in this Dec 2008 war.

Global leaders and war lords need to sit and discuss endlessly their woes.

All nations/nationals should be treated equal ,like the one sun we have which is equal to all nations in providing for life and preserving life.

The earth has only one sun,all humans/nations are equal under this sun. Humans are weak in unity and chose to ignore this simple truths/simple philosophies. Live and let live and equality for all is the way to progress.

Wars are not solutions, all parties must sit and discuss their way via endless sittings to talk their way out of woes and prosper.

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SuperLib - Or, if Hamas is going to be wiped out, they might as well take some Israelis with them.

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International community must help out with medical aid and food aid

The international community has given the "Palestinians" hundreds of millions of dollars for medical and food aid over the years. A shame most of it has been spent on weapons or is sitting in Swiss bank accounts. A lot of good it's doing the "Palestinian" people.

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Israel has no choice but to engage Hamas to stop the Gaza rocket attacks.

Really? That's not the view expressed in a major Israeli newspaper:

Blood will now flow like water. Besieged and impoverished Gaza, the city of refugees, will pay the main price. But blood will also be unnecessarily spilled on our side. In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel's overreaction.

The history of the Middle East is repeating itself with despairing precision. Just the frequency is increasing. If we enjoyed nine years of quiet between the Yom Kippur War and the First Lebanon War, now we launch wars every two years. As such, Israel proves that there is no connection between its public relations talking points that speak of peace, and its belligerent conduct.

In another week or two, those same pundits who called for blows and more blows will compete among themselves in leveling criticism at this war. And once again this will be gravely late.

Hezbollah was not weakened as a result of the Second Lebanon War; to the contrary. Hamas will not be weakened due to the Gaza war; to the contrary. In a short time, after the parade of corpses and wounded ends, we will arrive at a fresh cease-fire, as occurred after Lebanon, exactly like the one that could have been forged without this superfluous war.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html

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Israel seems to believe that by inflicting suffering on the Palestinian civilian population that it will make them rise up against their leaders. This assumption has been continually proven wrong. Since the start of the Zionist presence in the land of Israel, no military operation has ever advanced dialogue with the Palestinians. None. Go after people threatening you by removing the cause; a collective punishment strategy does not, will not, achieve these goals. Certainly the economic blockade of Gaza has been a mistake too.

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That's not the view expressed in a major Israeli newspaper

An opinion article by a leftist writer from a leftist newspaper. What a surprise.

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1955) is an Israeli journalist for the Haaretz newspaper, where he is also an editorial board member. He is a prominent left-wing commentator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Levy

But what it does say is how Israel allows dissenting views in its major publications. Could you imagine what would happen to a writer in Gaza who criticized the actions of Hamas?

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it will make them rise up against their leaders.

Actually, right now I think they're just trying to put an end to the barrage of Qassam rockets they receive on a daily basis. Something they should have done years ago.

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But what it does say is how Israel allows dissenting views in its major publications.

Can you imagine such a view appearing in a major American newspaper? Nope, the fact the war in 2006 failed to achieve any strategic objectives doesn't seem to come into play.

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Things may be about to change:

For years, the subject of Israel has been the biggest third rail subject we have to deal with...Any criticism of Israel was greeted with catcalls of anti-semitism, which would inevitably draw out the anti-semites...

But as the current crisis unfolds in Gaza, all that seems to have reversed itself. Although a lot of bloggers are still obviously gun shy, it looks like readers are ready to take it on, and they are doing so without letting the conversation devolve into an endless flame war....

Finally, an end to political correctness in sight on the subject of Israel.

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Helter: "But what it does say is how Israel allows dissenting views in its major publications. Could you imagine what would happen to a writer in Gaza who criticized the actions of Hamas?"

While your posts today are better than usual (ie. not way out there), you are still trying to spin this into some anti-Muslim rant. What the article says, truth aside, is that Israel is indeed more tolerant to dissenting views SO LONG AS THEY ARE WITHIN THE COMMUNITY. Outside of the community and Israel simply either refuses to listen or is firing rockets.

Anyway, Israel will not at all win things by doing what they are doing. The rockets being fired back today are an example. I wish Hamas would simply stop doing it and give in to what is obviously heinous overreactions, but unfortunately, as with any other country/people, they too suffer from an immense pride and refuse to fall under the pressure of dictators. Israel and Hamas, religions aside, are very much alike in that regard.

What's more, this whole thing has more or less come about due to the blockade in Gaza, on lands that Israel stole way back when and have only given a fraction back (and keep building on while expanding). Hamas fires quite a high number of rockets into Israel, killing MAYBE 3 or 4 people, and Israel steps in to kill almost 400 in retaliation. Ridiculous, and it will never stop.

Hamas and the Palestinian (not all) statement that they are going to 'wipe out the Jews' is a horrible reminder for most of us of Holocaust sentiment. Israel, or people who support it, saying Palestinians should all be wiped out is no different at all... it's just that some people, like some OTHER people 60 + years ago, seem to think it's more justified from one side.

My point is that both groups are committing wrong, and neither are right in doing so. There are other ways to work this out, and part is with international pressure, and in particular US pressure on Israel. US pressure on Hamas will achieve nothing but a big 'Well, what a surprise!' from the rest of the ME, while pressure on Israel might actually achieve surprising results. And yet, what does the US government have to say about all this? "Palestinians should stop launching rockets from Gaza". Not a single word towards Israel about perhaps easing up a little.... not a word. 'Surprise, surpise'.

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An opinion article by a leftist writer from a leftist newspaper. What a surprise.

Gideon Levy (Hebrew: גדעון לוי‎; born 1955) is an Israeli journalist for the Haaretz newspaper, where he is also an editorial board member. He is a prominent left-wing commentator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Levy

But what it does say is how Israel allows dissenting views in its major publications. Could you imagine what would happen to a writer in Gaza who criticized the actions of Hamas?

So what Helter_Skelter is saying is that right-wing opinions are the only ones that count and that people living under oppression deserve the misery they get - in this case under Hamas and missles from Israel.

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". . . Israel's right to exist."

If only it were this simple. What about Palistine's right to exist when it was essentially signed away by the U.N. in 1947? People in the West want to know why Arab nations are so pissed off at them? They should start with the British Mandate of Palestine.

Hamas deserves what it's getting now, for the breaking countless cease-fire treaties, for endless terrorist attacks, and for hampering any and every attempt at peace. But Israel is hardly an angel in any of this. And the West, in it's complicit support of Israel, isn't any better.

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Well, no matter what the cause is, the fact still remains that you can erase Gaza to the ground, kill every living lizard on the ground but the story shall be written and someone in the future somewhere will learn about it and sympathize with the Palestinians.

So far 380:4 and it started with the large figure. And all the WH can say is to condemn Hamas. What about the kids dying alongside, the innocent, what influence can they have on Hamas even if they so wish?

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Well, no matter what the cause is, the fact still remains that you can erase Gaza to the ground, kill every living lizard on the ground but the story shall be written and someone in the future somewhere will learn about it and sympathize with the Palestinians.

I was first exposed to the plight of the Palestinians during the 1970s in, of all places, the Anne Frank House in Amsterdam. Like many American girls, I cherished her diary as a rite of passage to womanhood that was ended by monsters.

Though it won't be easy to achieve, Israelis cannot have security in the absence of Palestinian dignity.

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Such a joke. Hundreds of Gazans die and a few Israelis. "Dozens or rockets" . . . more like "rocks". Same thing over and over . . . Zzzzzzz

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Hamas deserves what it's getting now, for the breaking countless cease-fire treaties, for endless terrorist attacks, and for hampering any and every attempt at peace.

Hamas as the winners of the elections should be representing Palestine and not Abbas the puppet.

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Maybe some of the armchair warriors here should get themselves over to Gaza, defend the "Palestinian" cause. You're not 'chickenhawks', are you?

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Another example of religion poisoning things.

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Adamantine, continue with your adamant ignorance but take note of what Betzee wrote above. Israel cannot have peace by taking away Palestinians dignity.

This war only creates more enemies for Israel and its bigger brother whose support is just like the one it displayed in the 06 lebanon war: Supply cluster bombs to Israel and blankets to Lebanon.

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So what Helter_Skelter is saying is that right-wing opinions are the only ones that count and that people living under oppression deserve the misery they get - in this case under Hamas and missles from Israel.

I think his goal was to compare the two societies as a whole. In a situation where negotiation is a necessary end it's important to look at who you are dealing with. The Palestinians routinely kill their own, especially those who express opinions different from their government.

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I think they're just trying to put an end to the barrage of Qassam rockets they receive on a daily basis. Something they should have done years ago.

At least you got the concept of 'trying' correct. They will 'try' but fail. Have tried for far more than 'years ago' --try decades-- to stamp on the Palestinians will and fight and... failed. Military operations will not bring peace.

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Israel cannot have peace by taking away Palestinians dignity.

Palestinian dignity?

Hamas recently authorised crucifixion as legitimate punishment in Gaza under the Sharia law they have vowed to implement there.

Dec. 25, 2008 Caroline Glick , THE JERUSALEM POST Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Again, I judge them by how they treat their own.

Where is the "dignity" in hiding behind women and children and executing the children of your rivals in Fatah?

Where is the international Left's outrage when Egypt fires on Palestinians?

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Israel cannot have peace by taking away Palestinians dignity.

Didn't Ariel Sharon promise to wipe out Hamas altogether? Poof! Problem solved. If he couldn't do, now what chance does the current leadership have?

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[T]he Bush administration badly miscalculated the outcome when it launched a policy of democracy promotion in the region—meaning above all a headlong rush toward elections....

Radical groups are not the issue here: Terrorist organizations that pursue extreme goals through violent means have already made their choices and will not be changed one way or another by U.S. policies. But most Islamist organizations are in transition, and the U.S. reaction may have a significant impact on their evolution. Organizations such Hamas, Hezbollah, and most political parties in Iraq (including the secular Kurdish parties) are pursuing political strategies while maintaining an armed wing.

The United States has decided to tolerate the situation without more than an occasional nod toward the necessity of disbanding militias in Iraq and expressed displeasure but took no action when Hezbollah joined the Lebanese government. It is, however, taking a hard line with Hamas after its victory in Palestine on the assumption that the suspension of U.S. and European support for the Palestinian Authority will force Hamas to recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel, disband its militia, and moderate its position. In reality, the policy could easily lead Hamas to seek support from Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other oil-rich Gulf countries.

Grand Ayatollah Sistani has now signaled his support for the Palestinians, kinda tells me which way we're gonna go here.....

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=17978&prog=zgp&proj=zdrl

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adamantine: "Maybe some of the armchair warriors here should get themselves over to Gaza, defend the "Palestinian" cause. You're not 'chickenhawks', are you?"

So you're saying that Palestine is a sovereign democracy that is fighting terrorists? I mean, you did just cut and paste that from a comment on Iraq, which you defend, did you not?

When you try and twist arguments, you should: 1) find things that are actually comparable; 2) do #1 so that it doesn't fly back in your face and make it look like the Iraqi government are Hamas, according to your own logic.

Israel is overreacting, as everyone on here is pointing out. You can argue all you want that it's in defense, but the next person will point out that the Palestinian mortars/rockets are as well, and so on, and so on.

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At least you got the concept of 'trying' correct. They will 'try' but fail.

No, they will be successful in this, they have De-facto support from the key Arab players in the region to get rid of HAMAS as a political entity for good. Despite the public announcements to the contrary.

Egypt has a its own fundie problem and the last thing she wants is a mini-Taliban like state in Gaza bleeding over into her borders. That is why she has sealed the border with Gaza, only goods going in and no people going out. Egypt will stand by and let Israel do the work for them. And keep the border sealed no matter how much carnage is inflicted on Gaza until the job is done and HAMAS is toast.

FATAH on the West bank sure isn't going to miss it when HAMAS is out of business, they stand to benefit the most as they will be the ones to go back into the Gaza and be the Government there again. So only muted protests from them and they will also just stand by as this continues.

HEZ in southern Lebanon has only offered verbal support but learned their lesson in 2006 and hasn't made one move to give any sort of military support by opening a "second front" in the North or launch a single missle. They already know what the response will be, they learned their lesson and its the same one HAMAS is getting now.

The international community is also pretty much just sitting on the sidelines with no real pressure being brought to bear to get Israel to stop. They to have no real love for HAMAS either.

To be blunt HAMAS has no real support with the exception of Iran for money, military hardware or supplies. And Iran isn't going to get any sort of shipment in there to sustain the fight.

HAMAS is toast, the only question is how Israel will handle the aftermath and will FATAH once back in control of GAZA be able restore the relationship between the two back enough so that talks can once again resume to try to resolve the conflict.

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Sailwind,

In Israel the 2006 war is judged a failure. That provided public support for the Gaza invasion (which is high). Israelis worried they weren't taken seriously by their adversaries.

Now Palestinian militants based in southern Lebanon may be preparing to join the fray. Obviously that would mark a major escalation, and might even provoke another Israeli invasion of Lebanon, igniting a regional war. Not good.

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You make some salient points sailwind, but hamas sure aren't toast much the same way hezbollah and the taliban aren't toast. That kind of attempt at "cleansing" has always been doomed to failure it seems.

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Hezbollah, Hamas and the Taliban are not comparable. The former two have developed charitable networks providing food and medical assistance to those who would be hard pressed to get it elsewhere. And they compete in elections. The Taliban, by contrast, does not and has no intention of pursuing that sort of strategy to acquire political power. While in power, it denied medical care to women.

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Shame on Israel: The five Palestinian sisters were fast asleep when a night-time Israeli airstrike hit the next-door mosque in Gaza. One of the walls collapsed on to their small asbestos-roofed home and they were all killed in their beds. The eldest sister, Tahrir, was 17 years old, the youngest, Jawaher, just four.

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Shame on Israel: The five Palestinian sisters were fast asleep when a night-time Israeli airstrike hit the next-door mosque in Gaza. One of the walls collapsed on to their small asbestos-roofed home and they were all killed in their beds. The eldest sister, Tahrir, was 17 years old, the youngest, Jawaher, just four.

The surviving sister blames Hamas.

"How many were you?"

[Girl] "Seven.In the other room were my mother, my father, my yonger brother and another sister, who is 13 days old. I say, Hamas is the cause, in the first place, of all wars." [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Dec. 29, 2008]

Read the report. Watch the video.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Dec2008.htm#b2912083

Pray for her safety and well-being.She could lose all her relatives and Hamas will still brand her a traitor.

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You make some salient points sailwind, but hamas sure aren't toast much the same way hezbollah and the taliban aren't toast. That kind of attempt at "cleansing" has always been doomed to failure it seems.

Different situation here. Hezbollah can count on Syrian support and ability to get arms. The Taliban also can count on the tribal areas that have never been under Pakistani control to smuggle arms and drugs to sustain their fighters. I would agree with your overall point if Egypt or even FATAH on the west bank was allowing HAMAS to use them as a safe haven base to sustain the fight.

That's the whole key to this and I'm pretty sure I can bet the ranch that Israel would have never launched this operation with the force and fury that she has without first recieving tacit approval from FATAH or Egypt. Thats why HAMAS is toast and good riddance I say also.

Israel has many faults (building settlements on the West Bank and Gaza after the 67 war was about as dumb as you can get) but one of them sure isn't on how she conducts Military operations and on the goals those operations achieve.

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There is one side here who sees no problem in an all out murderous rampage taking place in Palestine right now. The deaths of as many Palestineans as possible is received loud and clear.

Yeah, I know and have stated that Hamas is kicking the wrong horse. It kicks back. But the force being used by Isreal right now is overkill.

However, when you remember that they have received a guarentee of $30,000,000,000.00 over 10 years, you got to be able to justify it by useing your military aid somewhere.

This year, Israel will receive $2.4 billion in military aid from the U.S.

Israel asked for a gradual increase in the aid over a 10-year period at the tune of $50 million per year. At the end of the 10 years, Israel will receive $2.9 billion annually in military assistance from the U.S.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/873594.html

Defiant Hamas hits Isreal with dozens of rockets. Israel’s airstrikes on more than 325 sites since midday Saturday reduced dozens of buildings to rubble, overwhelmed hospitals with wounded and filled Gaza’s deserted streets with smoke and fire. The military said Israeli naval vessels had also bombarded targets from the sea.

And you know, if you don't spend the money, you don't get anymore.

So Hamas screwed up. But Isreal can't stop killing till it goes through $2,400,000,000.00 of missiles, rockets, etc.

Lot more dieing going to happen. < :-)

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Word to the wise. Don't mess with the Chosen people.

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adamantine: "Pray for her safety and well-being.She could lose all her relatives and Hamas will still brand her a traitor."

I do indeed pray for her safety -- Israel is still in attack mode and step things up. Lebanon is considering joining in the fight. And now Hamas might seek this young lady out, as you say, as a traitor. If she blamed Israel she would be deemed a hero by Palestine and perhaps targeted by Israel (worse things have happened!). Either way, her family would be dead and the politics would more or less be the same; both wrong!

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The root of this entire conflict is Religion... take it out and there's nothing to fight for but dry, useless land.

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Of course Hamas will attack. They are being slaughtered. Children , elderly without concern by the Israelis/

It IS Genocide. 360 have died since Saturday, most had nothing to do with Hamas.

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SunTze: "The root of this entire conflict is Religion..."

Not really... in this case it's more complicated than that. The root of this whole conflict is based on history, in which only a part is based on religion.

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May the Palestinians' god be with them in their fight against "Israel."

The Palestinians are fighting for their homes, their families and their lives. The US/"Israe" effectively have a turkey-shoot in this mass murder of people. - And see how the "Israeli" planes will drop chaff to foil radar when they and everyone else knows there isn't anything capable of hitting them! Such heroes.

This seems to be preparation for an occupation, doesn't it. One hopes the 'Israelis' do actually try to occupy the Gaza as they will doubtless be booted-out shortly and have to lick their wounds and use maximum spin in their captive media to explain yet another case of Jewish terrorism c/o the US taxpayers.

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I see this war from a different perspective. This is not a war to gain lands or security of Israel. It is probably a war conspired by Arab nations and Israel. Falling oil price is greatly straining the economy and politicians of oil producing arab nations. They tried everything to bolster and pump up the oil price, but failed. OPEC's agreement to cut the production did not work. Now the surplus of oil ia causing a problem of storing the oil. Because all oil reservoirs are full,the oil tanker ships can not leave the US ports. Dubai's economy is collapsing due to lack of fund to complete the massive public projects and not tourists are coming. They are suffocating, and were looking for a light to get out of the dark tunnel. It is expected to see the oil price rise as the war escaltes. On the other hand, the Israel politicians are facing another elections in 2009. As they have been portrayed as doves, they need to show public majority who are more rightists that moew hawkish images to gain the popularity. They think this is a chance to make up for the failed war in 2006. Once Obama takes the office,this war may not be endorsed by the US government as Obama will not hand over the blank check to Israel unlike GWB. What a tragedy! My heart aches for the poor palestine civilians who have no chance of peace.

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Look how well Hamas take care of their own subjects:

Hamas officials say 271 Palestinians have been killed and 600 wounded since Israel began its aerial assault on the Gaza Strip on Saturday, but none of the injured have yet left via Rafah. Egypt has helicopters and doctors on standby at the Rafah crossing. There are also up to 40 ambulances waiting to go into Gaza to bring out the most seriously wounded. Tonnes of medical supplies have arrived at the nearby airport of El-Arish.

But the Egyptian authorities say that, at the moment, they have no-one to treat.

Egypt's Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said the wounded were "barred from crossing" and he blamed "those in control of Gaza" for putting the lives of the injured at risk.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801881.stm

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360 have died since Saturday, most had nothing to do with Hamas.

That's a lie.

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60 innocents were killed in one bomb strike. Streth does you fink BBC and Sky would lose. And don'T forget all you American clever clogs, that Sky news is owned by Murdoch who own your beloved Fox news rubbish. So are the telling lies as well, eh!!! Well is they?

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If she blamed Israel she would be deemed a hero by Palestine and perhaps targeted by Israel (worse things have happened!)

Why do you say things you know aren't true?

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Look how well Hamas take care of their own subjects:

The militant's free pass to kill is not only given for Israel, but against their own people. Those who support the policy of revenge by the militants will turn a blind eye to this.

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MikeBarrymore: It IS Genocide. 360 have died since Saturday, most had nothing to do with Hamas.

It's not genocide. You can call it that if it makes you feel better but that doesn't make it true. And most who have died have been Hamas members.

"Airstrikes have killed more than 375 Palestinians, most of them Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources say."

http://edition.cnn.com/

You can choose any legitimate source you want but you will not find any evidence to support the statement that most who have died are civilians. You might be confused since the media websites refuse to show injured militants and only show injured civilians which would make the observer think all of the injured/dead are civilians, but that's more of a financial decision than a reporting decision. The more outrage people like you feel, the more you'll go to their websites, and the more revenue they'll receive.

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Like I said before...if hamas stops firing the rockets, Israel will stop the military operation in Gaza. Don't know why they just can't understand that.

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Like I said before...if hamas stops firing the rockets, Israel will stop the military operation in Gaza. Don't know why they just can't understand that.

Hamas' policy is revenge, not peace. When you look at it that way you can start to understand why they do what they do.

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SuperLib,

Not so, the policy of hamas, Hezbolla and Iran is the elimination of the state of Israel. The have all stated so and make no attempt to hide it.

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It's very simple. Israel has stated for years what it needs to ensure peace.. LEAVE US ALONE AND QUIT LOBBING EXPLOSIVES AT US.

And the reply? "There can be no peace while any Jews are in Gaza".

So... in for a penny, in for a pound. Unfortunately for them, the Israeli's are extremely tired of this crap, and I don't believe they are gonna let up any time soon. I vote for a carpet bombing.

They were texted to LEAVE THE AREA, military aciton is gonna start soon. And then it did. If they stayed, KNOWING that the Israeli's tend to do things in a big way, they are either Hamas, supporters of Hamas, or foolish. Either way, they were warned.

There will never be peace in the ME as long as the Arab States continue to desire the destruction of the Jewish state. Having been thru that before, the Jews are not going to allow that to even begin again.

I bet they wish they would have taken the 1948 partitioning agreement now, don't they? If not... they deserve what they get. You can only poke a tiger so long until he wakes up and is pissed off.

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My heart aches for the poor palestine civilians who have no chance of peace." And those who don't follow Hamas, are and have been seeking and obtaining Israeli citizenship. If more of them did this, things "may" work for the better in the short.

Now, Israelis who are reading this board, first let me say that I am down with Israel's "right to exist". But, perhaps its time to give back the boarder lands and the settlements, even though you won it by an attack on you. As several posters claim the 1967 boarders are the issue, let them have it and see what happens then. Provide nothing, after all, as posters here claim, it is the boarders. Stop the social items that are/were given and let them fret for themselves, as you did, and create a desert into farmable lands, water purification systems, a social structure, and their own law and order. The main thing is this, as said poster claims, will prevent the unnecessary killings.

Its worth the gamble.

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to the poster who claims Israel's response is overkill, well this is not the first time this has happened. Why provoke it?

And, since when has fighting ever had rules. Pull a knife on me, I'll respond with a gun, pull a gun, I'll respond with a gun.

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The policy of Israel is to destroy all its neighbouring Arab countries and make an Israelis super state. Don'T fink any of us can argue with that fact.

All the land grabbing, mass killings and occupations , make that fact obvious to neutral observers that wasn't poorly educated about the MId East situation in their US schools.

The Israelis often kill Christians and UN workers, because they don'T care who they kill, but America keeps its gob shut and praises everythink Israel does innit!!!

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Not so, the policy of hamas, Hezbolla and Iran is the elimination of the state of Israel. The have all stated so and make no attempt to hide it."

And once Israel is gone, whose to say they won't come after every last Jew?

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Israel has the full right to defend its civilians (after 8 years of daily rockets attack from hamass and the rest of the Islamofascist in Gaza strip) it surely doesn't matter how "over killing" the Israeli reaction is,them falsetinians should have thought about it before hand!

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"In Monday’s attacks, Israel focused its bombing on the houses of Hamas field operatives in a campaign meant to tear at the roots of the extremist group ruling Gaza." From the above supposedly objective news report.

Consider what Hamas and Israel have in common. Just two things, politically speaking. Both of their governments were elected in fair and democratic elections. Both are equally fanatic.

That is where the things in common end.

Hamas has lousy little rockets that they have been stupidly and ineffectually launching against Israel. Israel has the best military machinery that money can buy. With that machinery Israel is committing mass murder in Gaza as you read this. Hamas's score card is not impressive as kills go.

Israel has heavy economic power which it has used against Gaza to sanction, among other things, medical and other humanitarian aid. Hamas is the government of a powerless and oppressed people.

Israel has ideological advantage over Hamas. Isreael can conjure up the Holocaust to scare away international critics of this latest misadventure. Hamas has only 60 years of Palestinian oppression to wave in the world's face. Who cares about the Armenians? said Hitler as he prepared to bomb Poland into oblivion. Hitler was off about Poland, but who cares about the Armenian genocide committed by Turkey? Likewise, who cares about the Palestinians? We've had 60 years to care about the Palestinians, and the truth is that comparatively few people and few governments care about the Palestinians.

My point is this. Israel is superior to Hamas and the people it represents in every political and economical way possible. As a superior power Israel has the power to call the shots in establishing a lasting peace if it sincerely wants to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Hamas are terrorists, extremists, fanatics, etc. Okay, so were the people who established Israel. So was George Washington. When people come to power and establish stability they become conservatives in the sense of wanting to preserve what they have. This is particularly true of people who come to power democratically. When Hamas was elected to represent the Palestinians there should have come a sigh of relief from Israel and the US and its allies. Whew. They've joined the club. Now we can talk to them. The reverse happened. Hysteria. So welcome to another Israeli massacre.

Israel could have talked to Hamas. We give you a genuine homeland. You stop lobbing rockets at us. We recognize your right to exist. You recognize our right to exist. We'll show you how to get money out of the US so you don't have to live in refugee camps and can have something wholesome to live for.

I am simplifying things but that is about how a peace-seeking Israel would deal with Hamas and with the Palestinian question.

So what's wrong with Israel? It has nothing to do with Hamas and their stupid rockets. It is ruled by opportunists who use fanaticism to stay in power. (Fanaticism? Just read Israeli propaganda.) The current government is unpopular and the ultra-right Likhud is set to win the next election to the magic carpet of growing right-wing popular sentiment. So the current has set up the current massacre to show that it can be as blood-thirsty as the Likhudniks.

The Israeli blitzkrieg will of course guarantee not the destruction of Hamas but the creation of fresh enemies for Israel. This may be what Israel's leaders want. Peaceful Palestinians minding their own business, like a grazing herd of contented Swiss cows, might rob Israel of national purpose and high subsidies from the US, creating internal strife.

I condemn the current Israeli rape of the Gaza Strip and those who support it. It is another case of collective punishment that Israel is notorious for. Okay, I also condemn Hamas's rocket attacks before the massacre began. But condemnation for the stronger power must be more severe than the weaker power, especially considering the comparative damage the two sides have done to one another.

Anyone reading Martin Buber these days? He spent the latter part of his life trying establish reconciliation between Palestinians and Israelis. There are people like him in Israel, only they are on the margins like the chorus of a Greek Tragedy.

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Alf you have so much insight into the problems Israel is causing. Obviously you keep up with current affairs, in an unbiased fashion.

More innocents are being killed now as we speak, bomb , bomb, bomb by the Israelis.I saw it on telly and i couldn't eat my muesli, i saw stretchers with dead children on covered in blood. Why is the Israeli government so cruel? Dead babies are not going to hurt you Isarael. Gordon Brown demand Israel stops now, show some backbone!!!

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The policy of Israel is to destroy all its neighbouring Arab countries and make an Israelis super state. Don'T fink any of us can argue with that fact."

Really, so why haven't they done so already? I would argue that it is not the Jews who want to create a Jewish world, but Muslims who want to create an Islamic world.

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skipthesong- You are just annoyed that us British look at the facts, not biased US policies shoved down our throat.

Israel is commiting genocide. We need it to stop now. Come on Mr Brown, UN, stop the illegal slaughter and the constant breaches of UN resolutions. WIcked!Wicked!Wicked!

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Hamas tried keeping to ceasefires, didn't work. From 2006 http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/09/mideast/index.html?section=cnn_latest

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli navy gunboat fired shells onto a northern Gaza beach Friday, killing at least seven people and prompting the military wing of Hamas to call off a 16-month-old cease-fire with Israel.

According to the IDF one of their missiles went astray that day but this wasn't it.

So who supports the idea of dividing up a country according to notions of race and religion?

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Sharky1,

Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Imagine a stranger implanting another stranger into your house and handing over the better part of your land to him. It's complicated. Not as easy as you would like to think. What will the preteens who might survive this campaign be in the future? Sing praises to Israel?

And lets not forget that until the current indiscriminate killing began all the Hamas rockets were falling on fields that are Palestinian accorning to the 1047 ''agreement''

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Israel, be nice to your neighbours and you will reep the benefits. Plesae stop being beastly and killing women and children, you've made me cry enough already this week with your blood spilling.

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This is between Israel and the arabs. Wiv the Israelis killing the most (as usual).

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The killing on both sides is wrong, and both need to be condemned. Since Israel seems to have carte blanche under the current US government, it can only be hoped that Obama will support them based on certain conditions being met -- first and foremost a condition that they not go in guns-a-blazin' like this to kill record numbers of Palestinians.

None of this will stop, though, until the issues of occupation and blockade by Israel are properly addressed.

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ceasefire with Hamas means a few rockets everyday rather then a few dozen!

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"This is between Israel and the arabs. Wiv the Israelis killing the most (as usual)."

does the amount of casualties is planted in your brain as the measure with which one should observe a WAR ?? Israeli should not be living in fear within the borders of their own nation and until this happen there's no reason for Israel to stop attacking the islamofacists in Gaza!

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Israel aint in fear. It'S the other way round, is you daft?

Israel controls the air, borders and sea with its militray. It don't believe in negotiations and all that just kill, anyone, women and children the lot, wallop, they couldn't give a monkeys.

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SailWind: You will, as the current Israeli offensive will show, be proven wrong. Hamas, toast? Excuse me, your understanding of who supports them defies belief. Again, as many have stated, I again write, military operations will not bring either the security or peace the state of Israel yearns for.

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I again write, military operations will not bring either the security or peace the state of Israel yearns for.

this operation isnt made for anything even close to solve the situation ,true. What we see now is how Israel was manipulated to do the job for Fatah meaning getting rid of Hamas and hand Gaza to abu-mazen,you guys should love it ; watching Israeli young soldiers dieing for the Palestinians to have a country which (as always with Muslims)they can not manage (simply because they can not manage themselves.) this operation is a last try for the lefties government of Israel to raise their votes in the coming elections.

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Who wrote about solution, my post was tempered with the word 'security'. You know, security AKA safety from rockets. This is not going to secure that.

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skipthesong- You are just annoyed that us British look at the facts, not biased US policies shoved down our throat."

diablo...You've got to be kidding me And just who promised this box of sand to who?

If Israel didn't have the upper hand, would people still be criticizing them? Is that what this is about, bullying? Hamas has seen time and time again the onslaught of how Israel would respond, and if you are at war with someone what are you supposed to do, call up a ref? come on people.

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skipthesong- As usual the US brainwashing has made you unable to decipher the reality from lies.

Israel has stated it will kill and send in tanks and kill more. It wants to make the arabs so scared they bugger off and become refugees somewhere else. Then the sly Israelis can come along and steal more land . Slowly but surely, they are increasing their land grab. That is what this is really all about. The Hamas missiles is like bleeding fireworks compared to the US freeby missiles Israel uses.

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An endless circle of unreasonable violence and the world is watching

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skipthesong: As several posters claim the 1967 boarders are the issue, let them have it and see what happens then.

I've thought about that as well....but...only if Hamas and the militants are able to prove that they're able to show some restraint. You can't give them more land on the same day they're launching rockets from the land they currently have. At that point it's not a gamble, it's a guaranteed loss of life.

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SuperLib- You grasp of world politics is almost childlike, just like my late wifes really.

See who breaks all the UN resolutions and ceasefires more than any other country in the world. Yes, your beloved Israel isn't it old chap.

I think many arabs have bad feeling towards Israel after their loved ones are killed and maimed even today, during the holy week.

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Poor Hamas getting attacked by Israel... Of course they've done nothing to deserve it. I mean just look at the list of actions taken by Hamas as compiled by the BBC, a fact finding British news organization. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm And we all know how the children need to learn how to harness deep political hate so they can grow up to be big strong suicide bombers themselves. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6257594.stm Not that I like him myself, but don't you think this is a bit much? http://www.newser.com/story/23129/puppet-kills-bush-on-hamas-kids-show.html Can you say that the part about "The puppet Bush pleads for his life and offers food and toys, but dies after being told that the White House has been turned into a "great mosque.""doesn't disturb you? Teaching kids it's ok to kill, sounds quite "beastly" to me.

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If the Hamas mis-leaders had any brains at all, they would immediately halt the rocket/mortar attacks before they get wiped out. Israel will prevail.

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Because everybody knows soldiers and political leaders in Israel hang out at bus stops and on buses and that nightclubs and markets are military outposts.

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Sarge- Be aware, Iran is getting close to having a bomb that would wipeout the whole of Israel.

Mark my words, if Israel carries on with the mass killings, its own future will go poof!! up in smoke.

Israel has been commiting terrorist acts since the 40's and is in breach of how many UN resolutions? Yet, they continue to kill the poor kiddies an dold ladies, the poor innocents. It is terrible.

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Alf - But, but the Iranian mis-leaders have said they are not seeking/developing nuclear bombs. Surely they are not lying through their teeth. Anyway, they'll never have one - Israel would wipe them out first.

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Sarge- Iran is being as truthfull as your beloved Israelis , who officially have no nukes!!

Israel will get pay back. These slaughters of the innocents are too much and world tolerance is not unlimited. Strewth, it's like the cold war, Israel needs someone with big weapons like itself to make things equal, then these massacres will end.

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"Anyway, they'll never have one - Israel would wipe them out first."

I'm curious... if the current gutless US administration watched as Israel launched a nuclear strike on Iran, would they still stand behind Israel 100% and say, "We demand Iran halt their nuclear programs.... errr..... uhhh..... well...", or would they finally (too late) say something to Israel that isn't simply 'go ahead and do as you please; we stand by it 100%'.

Fortunately there's a government coming in that probably will be a bit more open-minded to BOTH sides and not just give Israel what it wants without question.

Alf's right in a way, though, sarge.... be it Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon, Palestine, or ANY other country in the ME, or world, Israel is not doing much to make any friends and mollify enemies. Quite the contrary, Israel is finally, though its cowardice and treachery (ie. having drones kill kids, etc.), causing people world-wide to stop seeing the Jews as timeless victims and start seeing their state as sponsors of terrorism. They are, ironically, ensuring their own destruction by depending on the victim card and world-wide ceaseless support while doing whatever they please.

The thugs in Hamas are not at all angels in this; again quite the contrary. But the disproportionate reaction, and the constant blockade and reclaiming of land that is not theirs by Israel is far worse. You'll hear a lot of, "You're just an anti-semite" for the next little while as countries world-wide condemn what Israel does, but when the US attaches stipulations to Israel support they might finally listen and ease up a bit. By then hopefully it's not too late.

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Good for Israel. Hamas has been asking for this punch in the mouth for a long time.

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Good Gosh what blather on this thread.

REALITY CHECK TIME

Israel isn't going take back Gaza, she doesn't have the manpower, resources or the treasure to hold it anymore by force.

WHY DO YOU THINK TORE DOWN HER SETTLEMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? See above and Sorry for shouting but the point is across.

Second of all Israel since she left Gaza she did not ever envision the result of her leaving would result in some Taliban-like state on her borders. Who would?

Now she has a major problem she left, she gets rockets......What was she suppose to do? TAKE IT?????????

I ask that again to the leftie crowd...TAKE IT???? Why? Her children aren't as special as theirs in Sderot??? The target of random missle attacks from Gaza for the past three years? Her blood isn't as red? She is the bad guy because she left Gaza and got rockets in return?

What say you? HAMAS is your hero now?

Sad that an HAMAS who targets and kills defenseless Jewish civilians ON PURPOSE should even rate your sympathy.

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sailwind- which side is the one with unconfirmed nuclear arsenal and with countless breaches of UN resolutions and the nation who has started he most invasions since WWII.

Israel should be put in its place by the international community.

The Israeli government is committing acts of terrorism, with the backing of the majority of Israeli's. Who are the "bad guys"?

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The thugs in Hamas are not at all angels in this; again quite the contrary. But the disproportionate reaction, and the constant blockade and reclaiming of land that is not theirs by Israel is far worse.

Just to make a few clarifications on this latest conflict. Israel say that they are going to Gaza to stop Hamas from firing rockets but there is more to the story. Hamas had repeatedly said it was willing and ready to stop "all" firing of home made rockets from Gaza if only Israel would lift the deadly blockade. And Israel repeatedly said No. Gaza had been under a crippling blockade against international law such as the Geneva Conventions ever since 2006 which reminds you of the Warsaw Getthoe Siege. Israel had given Palestinians in Gaza two choices. Either to die of starvation as a result of the blockade or be exterminated by the Israeli war machine.

Hamas had not fired rockets for months but did that change the situation? No, it did not. Also. During the cease fire Israel killed 49 Palestinians. Israel had excursions into Gaza when no rockets had been fired from Gaza at all and during the blockade which have caused hundreds of deaths due to starvation and disease due to lack of medicine.

I think that the Israelis treatment of the Gaza Palstinians resembles the nazis who treated the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. You put a great number of people in a very small area, you forsake them of pretty much everything, and when they strike back, you shred the ghetto in pieces. I thought the population of Israel said "Never again!". Is that just true for the Jewish population?

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Alf

Let me help you out a little here to clear out the intellectual progressive fog your in.

The Israeli government is committing acts of terrorism, with the backing of the majority of Israeli's. Who are the "bad guys"?

Would the act, if undertaken by a uniformed soldier in time of war, constitute a war crime? Some cases are hard to judge, but nine times out of 10, answering this question clears away intellectual fog. It makes you realize that terrorism is a war crime committed by someone not a soldier. This intellectual clarity is important, important not just to those of us who have lost family members or friends.

Intellectual clarity is important to civilization itself.

When we fail to recognize the distinction between warfare and terrorism, we strip soldierly dignity from those who protect us from barbarism and award it to murderers. This injustice doubly punishes terrorism’s victims. First, the terrorist turns the victim into an instrument of his armed propaganda. He transforms a human being into a bloody wall poster. Then, the terrorist or his intellectual apologist converts the victim into a legitimate target for military action, telling us there is no difference between an airliner and a military base, that a religious procession is no different from a column of soldiers. He forces us to suffer the intellectual insult of being told that Carlos the Jackal is the legitimate heir of Simon Bolivar, that George Washington and George Habash were politically and morally equivalent. We are not children. We know soldiers sometimes kill innocents. I recently spent a year in Iraq and I know soldiers have killed innocent people. Consider the following example: A driver does not see a soldier’s signal to stop at a checkpoint. When the driver does not slow, a soldier opens fire and an innocent family is killed. This is tragedy. It is tragedy and an error, but it is not terrorism and it is not murder.

Every person here knows the difference between the grim accidents of warfare and Oma or 7/7. It is the difference between a soldier and a terrorist.

http://www.mipt.org/terrorism/files/pdf/Don-Hamilton-Ireland-June-19-2008.pdf

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sailwind: "ask that again to the leftie crowd...TAKE IT???? Why? Her children aren't as special as theirs in Sderot???"

cool down, my friend! You seem awfully one-sided in this manner. Of COURSE Israel's children are as special. In fact, they're so much MORE special that the UN puts the value at 364 Palestinians to 4 Israelis; or 90 Palestinian children for the lives of one Jew.

"When we fail to recognize the distinction between warfare and terrorism, we strip soldierly dignity from those who protect us from barbarism and award it to murderers."

Then you admit that what both sides are doing to each other is nothing but barbarian and Israel in particular being awarded for it (by the US, anyway). It's ironic that you, one of the few remaining defenders of the Iraq war, come on this thread and say that people can't differentiate war from terrorism; it's always war that the Americans/Jews are waging, but terrorism that the other side is engaged in. How is it a war with only one side, my friend?

"Consider the following example: A driver does not see a soldier’s signal to stop at a checkpoint. When the driver does not slow, a soldier opens fire and an innocent family is killed. This is tragedy. It is tragedy and an error, but it is not terrorism and it is not murder."

Consider it with a slight twist: It's the border of Israel and it's a Palestinian truck coming to pick up medical supplies. The truck sees the signal and actually slows down, but the Jews decide to open fire on it anyway, and then later say had a right to, despite the outcry. This is murder, terrorism, and tragedy combined, but there are still people on here who would defend the Israeli side without fail, saying that none of it was wrong. They might even try to wash the comments down by saying that it's, 'sad, and tragic, but not wrong'.

Such people who defend what's going on here are often the same one's who rush to protect murderous thugs like those in Haditha, again watering down the crimes the men committed with, "Ah well, things like that happen in stressful situations," or, "There's always collateral damage in war", or even flat out denial.

In other words, sailwind, you really shouldn't come on here and saying that many of us can't see the difference when you can't see in front of your own nose. It's YOU who knows nothing of the difference between warfare and terrorism, and choose only to see one side (yours) as being engaged in one, while the enemy is engaged in something else completely. That black and white logic is what has led to the situation getting so out of control.

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"Just to make a few clarifications on this latest conflict. Israel say that they are going to Gaza to stop Hamas from firing rockets but there is more to the story. Hamas had repeatedly said it was willing and ready to stop "all" firing of home made rockets from Gaza if only Israel would lift the deadly blockade. And Israel repeatedly said No. Gaza had been under a crippling blockade against international law such as the Geneva Conventions ever since 2006 which reminds you of the Warsaw Getthoe Siege. Israel had given Palestinians in Gaza two choices. Either to die of starvation as a result of the blockade or be exterminated by the Israeli war machine."

Brilliant summary, itcher. Others will come on here and call you an anti-semite and supporter of terrorism, but they tend not to see the truth anyway. Good post.

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Yeah, Isreal pounds Gaza with over 300 airstrikes and Hamas hits Isreal with dozens of rockets. Dozens!!!

I'm not going to defend Hamas' actions. Shooting rockets into Isreal is dumb as hell. There should be retaliation. But this action is far overkill.

Then...

Why would the United States want to do anything that causes Isreal to slow down their attack and bombing within Gaza? We're selling weapons and munitions to Isreal and our interest are making money.

We all know that Isreal is going to go into Gaza and start their ground campaign in the next few days. They'll continue to drop those $$$$ bombs that the United States paid for until then. This is no different then when Isreal attacked Lebanon and Hizbollah, the United States spoke to the munitions maker on Isreal's behalf and munition makers cranked out weapons so the killing could continue.

I'm waiting for the cluster bombs to start falling. Won't surprise me when they do. < :-)

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The problem here is that each side is afraid of appearing weak, which would invite worse aggression, and therefore won't back off.

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The world has changed. The Israelis did well against conventional armies. But that's not what Hamas and Hezbollah are; Hezbollah can now project force further than it could in 2006. And it's part of the political landscape in Lebanon where it garners support at the ballot box through patronage. The Taliban, by contrast, drew support from its ability to provide a draconian form of law and order where none existed.

Most problematic for Israel is the enemy within; Arabs will outnumber Jews by 2040. And they are an increasingly radicalized bunch.

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If the Israelis wish to establish peace and security for themselves then they must give the Palestinians cause not to radicalise; they must give them reason to be content. It is either that or eradicate them as a nation from the face of the earth. There are no shades here within which to formulate solutions: it is black and white. For the sake of us all... lets hope that the former prevails.

Watch: The Battle of Algiers

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"The problem here is that each side is afraid of appearing weak, which would invite worse aggression, and therefore won't back off."

Israel is protecting its civilians ,Israel doesn't afraid to be shown weak (like the last war with Lebanon)because it ISN'T.

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No amount of concessions makes Israel any safer unfortunately. The ball is clearly in the court of the Palestinians to make peace with Israel and find a way to coexist. If the Palestinians want to secure a better future, they'd be wise to put down their weapons and accept the fact that Jews have just as much right to be there as they do.

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Orro: "Israel is protecting its civilians ,Israel doesn't afraid to be shown weak (like the last war with Lebanon)because it ISN'T."

Wow, somebody's a little defense. Usually the one insisting they are not weak is the one who truly lacks strength. Israel may be strong from a military point of view, but they are ensuring their own destruction; as was pointed out, Jews will be surpassed by Arabs by 2040, and Israel is a mighty small area of land compared to its neighbours.

VOR: The Palestinians put forth a cease-fire deal as early as this afternoon, which Israel outright rejected. They offered to put down their weapons, but again Israel refused. It's clear that in fact the ball is in ISRAEL's court, but they are holding onto to it. They WANT to use this as an excuse to go in by land, probably by tomorrow, and wipe out a few more Hamas. Only then will they accept a cease-fire, on their own terms. Palestinians want a cease-fire deal that includes an end to the genocidal blockade; Israel does not. As Itchy put it, it's: "die of starvation/disease under the blockade, or be crushed by the might of Israel".

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I agree that things have changed for Israel. In the past, Israel has been successful when fighting conventional wars against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Fighting against terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah has been a different story. The terrorists are getting better tactical weapons that are changing the situation for Israel.

Discussion and debate about the details of the current conflict is irrelevent and leads nowhere and has led nowhere in every other case during the past 60 years. The bottom line is that Arabs and Palestinians do not accept the United Nations creation of the state of Israel back in 1947. If they were to accept Israel's right to exist, then peace would be possible. However, there is no indication that they ever will.

For those that oppose Israels actions today, do you accept Israel's right to exist? If not, why and what can be done about it short of an all out war?

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Wolfpack: "The bottom line is that Arabs and Palestinians do not accept the United Nations creation of the state of Israel back in 1947. If they were to accept Israel's right to exist, then peace would be possible."

You say this, but are you not aware that the blockade in the Gaza strip is against the law according to the UN? The same UN you claim above is ignored when it comes to the creation of Israel. So, what are you saying... do we HAVE TO listen to the UN and admit the right of Israel to exist and at the same time deny the UN and the illegality of the blockade?

"For those that oppose Israels actions today, do you accept Israel's right to exist? If not, why and what can be done about it short of an all out war?"

I most certainly do accept Israel's right to exist. I also recognize the rights of the Palestinians to exist in the Gaza strip. Do you not? The first step towards reconciliation, and I repeat the FIRST STEP, would be for Israel to stop pounding Gaza and lift the blockade on the condition that ALL rocket attacks stop. This does not have to be done tomorrow, but more and more gates could open gradually to allow trucks with relief supplies into Gaza. If any rockets are fired in the mean time, you close a few more gates, etc.

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If Israelis thinks that they will win over Hamas by starting massacres they are very wrong because oppression and injustice and cruelity never wins. The terror duo Israel and US can run amok as much as they want but they will never win over Hamas by supporting injustice and oppression. What choices do the Palestinian really have facing a racist state which have been stealing their lands ,much like how the Native people in Canada and USA got their land stolen. As much as I would like to see a non violent form of resistance, but facing an ethnocratic and colonial state backed with Western lies what is it that the Palestinians can do to get their well deserved justice and freedom?

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Wolfpack: You're pushing forth a view held by a minority within a radicalised militant group as the voice cry of all Arabs and --especially-- Palestinians; it simply isn't true. Give a man a job, give his children safety, provide essential services such as clean water, electricity, sanitation and education and show everyone that it's OK to believe in a brighter future --along with other creature comforts such as a TV, a fridge-- and watch as any significant grass root support for war, battle, bombs, rockets and guns evaporates.

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smithinjapan says:

You say this, but are you not aware that the blockade in the Gaza strip is against the law according to the UN? The same UN you claim above is ignored when it comes to the creation of Israel. So, what are you saying... do we HAVE TO listen to the UN and admit the right of Israel to exist and at the same time deny the UN and the illegality of the blockade?

The logic in your statement falls apart when you consider that the Palestinian and Arab side does not consider the 1947 UN law creating Israel to be legitimate. Should Israel obey the UN now when doing so is a threat to it's national security while it's adversary does not? It defies reason. I am not even a fan of the UN and don't understand the reason for creating the state of Israel in the first place but Israel is a legitimate nation created by the prevailing international authority of the time.

I most certainly do accept Israel's right to exist. I also recognize the rights of the Palestinians to exist in the Gaza strip. Do you not? The first step towards reconciliation, and I repeat the FIRST STEP, would be for Israel to stop pounding Gaza and lift the blockade on the condition that ALL rocket attacks stop.

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(please ignore my previous post - I submitted it accidentally) smithinjapan says:

You say this, but are you not aware that the blockade in the Gaza strip is against the law according to the UN? The same UN you claim above is ignored when it comes to the creation of Israel. So, what are you saying... do we HAVE TO listen to the UN and admit the right of Israel to exist and at the same time deny the UN and the illegality of the blockade?

The logic in your statement falls apart when you consider that the Palestinian and Arab side does not consider the 1947 UN law creating Israel to be legitimate. Should Israel obey the UN now when doing so is a threat to it's national security while it's adversary does not? It defies reason. I am not even a fan of the UN and don't understand the reason for creating the state of Israel in the first place but Israel is a legitimate nation created by the prevailing international authority of the time.

I most certainly do accept Israel's right to exist. I also recognize the rights of the Palestinians to exist in the Gaza strip. Do you not? The first step towards reconciliation, and I repeat the FIRST STEP, would be for Israel to stop pounding Gaza and lift the blockade on the condition that ALL rocket attacks stop.

Yes, the Palestinians have a right to live in the Gaza strip but they don't have a right to use that territory to threaten Israel's national security. In doing so, they stand to lose their territory by being defeated in war.

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Itcher74's post @ 10:59 is a plagiarised version of a screed found at http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/my-brief-response-to-zionist-disinformation/

Not surprisingly, smithinjapan fell for it.

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The Israeli response is as usual a completely lopsided use of force. That said the dumb@ss leaders within Hamas should know exactly what they are going to get when they mess with Israel. The Hamas leadership was elected and sane and rational Palestinians should be as pissed at Hamas as they are at Israel for the destruction brought upon them.

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YangYong says:

Wolfpack: You're pushing forth a view held by a minority within a radicalised militant group as the voice cry of all Arabs and --especially-- Palestinians; it simply isn't true. Give a man a job, give his children safety, provide essential services such as clean water, electricity, sanitation and education and show everyone that it's OK to believe in a brighter future --along with other creature comforts such as a TV, a fridge-- and watch as any significant grass root support for war, battle, bombs, rockets and guns evaporates.

If the Palestinians were to throw out Hamas and all other terrorists within their midst, they would have a brighter future. The problem is, they will not because they actually support Hamas and it's goal of wiping Israel off the map. Do you have any evidence that shows otherwise? Most polls in Gaza and the West Bank show support for Hamas.

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WP: You avoided answering to the fallacy that you are painting: that all Arabs and all Palestinians do not recognise Israel's right to exist. That, I write again, simply is not true. Retract that from your posts, admit that it's an inaccurate view and then we could touch on your --perhaps rather naive?-- solution of 'throwing out Hamas and all terrorists' from --lets stay focused on the thread for now-- Gaza.

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itcher74 says:

As much as I would like to see a non violent form of resistance, but facing an ethnocratic and colonial state backed with Western lies what is it that the Palestinians can do to get their well deserved justice and freedom?*

There is a great deal of hatred and animosity towards Jewish people that I have never been able to understand. I am not Jewish and I don't even have any Jewish friends that I know of, but if Arabs and Palestinians were to leave Israel alone then peace would be possible. Israel is a small country bordered by much larger and hostile states that support terrorism against them.

When so many believe that Jews are racists and have stolen the land of the Palestinians, then there will be no peace. Palestinians and Arabs have never tried non-violent resistance; a war was launched against Israel on the first day of their existence.

What choices do the Palestinians have? How about this, instead of 60 years of futile threats and attacks, why not try non-violent resistence just as Ghandi and MLK did? These tactics proved to be ultimately successful. It's worth a try, because what the Palestinians and Arabs have been doing for so long has been a complete failure and has just been a cause of misery for the Palestinian people.

Itcher74 - do you accept Israels right to exist?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-gaza-aid-ship

Isreal will do anything to kill as many people as possible. They will even ram aid ships coming just to take care of the wounded and bring medical supplies.

They are no better than Hamas. Here they have shown they are heatherns. < :-)

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Yangyong:

" If the Israelis wish to establish peace and security for themselves then they must give the Palestinians cause not to radicalise; "

We hear this excuse over and over again. However, it does not explain how muslims who could even find Israel on a map are "radicalized", e.g. the Iranians. You really have to keep your eyes firmly closed to blank the role of radical islam out of the picture.

" they must give them reason to be content. "

For Hamas to be content, Israel must be destroyed and Shariah introduced. Nothing less will do. Read their charter, it is publicly available.

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"Palestinians" love their misery.

What other conclusion can be arrived at when you review the history of the conflict and the steps "leaders" like Arafat or the current bunch of Hamas goons have taken after each and every one of their many defeats?

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YangYong says:

WP: You avoided answering to the fallacy that you are painting: that all Arabs and all Palestinians do not recognise Israel's right to exist. That, I write again, simply is not true. Retract that from your posts, admit that it's an inaccurate view and then we could touch on your --perhaps rather naive?-- solution of 'throwing out Hamas and all terrorists' from --lets stay focused on the thread for now-- Gaza.

I don't believe that I am avoiding the issue. Also, why should I retract my opinon when you have not proven it to be wrong? I don't use the word "all" - please don't put words in my mouth. There is likely a significant minority of Palestinians who just want the misery to end and would accept Israel as their neighbor. What is happening in Gaza today is because Hamas, "most" Palestinians, Hezbollah, and "most" Arab states do not recognize Israels right to exist. With the exception of Egypt, no Arab country has made peace with Israel. As a direct result, Anwar Sadat was assassinated.

I ask you directly YangYong, do you accept Israel's right to exist?

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Wolfpack wrote.

If the Palestinians were to throw out Hamas and all other terrorists within their midst, they would have a brighter future. The problem is, they will not because they actually support Hamas and it's goal of wiping Israel off the map. Do you have any evidence that shows otherwise? Most polls in Gaza and the West Bank show support for Hamas.

As I already told you. Israel was created by stealing land from the Palestinians. Thats how this conflict started. And you did agree that the Palestinians have the Right Of return. By stating your support of Right Of return you are saying that Israel is the aggressors and you are right here. Israel is the aggressors. They have been and they always will be no matter how much disinformation and lies the Zionist are trying to spread and brain wash ignorant people.

How can you be supporting democracy and boycott Hamas at the same time as Hamas is democratic. Hamas also happened to win the elections in occupied Palestine. This is the political reality which the west have to come to terms with. By boycotting the election results you are also boycotting democracy.

The reason why people support Hamas is because Hamas does not want to bargain Palestinians and humanitarian rights. These rights are internationally agreed rights which UN together with USA havs also agreed to. And also yourself Wolfpack from the previous thread. So when you say hitsory does not matter anymore you are not being very consistent from what you were saying in your previous thread where you tried to spread disinformation and lies about this cause of this conflict.

As you have said previously. You did support Right Of Return Wolf Pack and this is a right which cannot be negotiated. This does not mean that every Palestinian who was terrorised out of their homes will return to their homes but this is more a matter of the idea or coming to terms with the reality of this conflict and history and that is taht the Palestinians have got the crap end of the stick due to Israeli aggression.

Israel will have to come to terms with their past and acknowledge that they were the aggressors and they stole land which did not belong to them. Once Israel can come to terms with this fact both Palestinians and Israelis can move into a more constructive dialogue. US too has actually supported the Right Of Return. Why is it that US say one thing on paper and do the opposite of what they have promised. Is it American nature to be lying hypocrites?

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itcher74 - Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

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WP, If I were a Palestinian, the questions i would be asking you are;

1.Why should I opt for Ghandi or MLK? Why don't you tackle the issue that calls for my adoption of MLK style?

You mentioned the decisions of the powers that be in '47. Why should their decision then be the ultimate unquestionable divine one?

I would prefer to die under an IDF fire power than the painful and slow starvation due to the blockade.

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WP wrote:

the Palestinian and Arab side does not consider the 1947 UN law creating Israel to be legitimate

That, my dear, says all Arabs and all Palestinians as you define these groups by the inclusive use of 'side'. It's not true. Neither is your beginning of a retraction quantifier 'most' but it's a start. Why should you retract? Because it's simply not true.

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I would prefer to die under an IDF fire power than the painful and slow starvation due to the blockade.

the blockade is due to the daily firing of rockets from Gaza into Israels territory.

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itcher74 - Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

Every Palestinian leader has agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of Palestine according to international laws and UN resolution 242. US voted in favor of this too btw. So what´s the problem?

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change says:

1.Why should I opt for Ghandi or MLK? Why don't you tackle the issue that calls for my adoption of MLK style? 2. You mentioned the decisions of the powers that be in '47. Why should their decision then be the ultimate unquestionable divine one?

I think that the Ghandi / MLK route should be taken because the military resistance strategy has failed for the past 60 years. The terrorists tactics of Hamas, Hezbollah, and supporting nations like Iran and Syria are leading no where and only lead to devastating retaliation. It's like doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Your second question is the best and ultimately the most important one. Obviously, Israel thinks it has a right to exist. It is equally obvious that a great many Arabs and Palestinians do not. If the UN's authority is not unquestioned in the matter of Israels right to exist, then it's authority in every other international pact, accord, law, and resolution can also be doubted. The UN is not a well formed or well functioning institution. But if it's auhority is not legitimate, then that appears to lead us to the law of the jungle. Which is pretty much exactly what see in the Middle East.

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WP: Misinformed misinformation and fallacy aside it has been noted that in post after post how the adopted resolution by the General Assembly has been a corner stone of your 'argument' to seemingly justify the violence now in progress against the people of Gaza; why then, if this the Golden Chalice from which we should all drink, isn't Jerusalem an internationally administered city as stipulated in said proclamation? Is it because Israel has a 'special' right to exist?

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So Wolfpack. You have supported the Right of Return, USA has supported a full Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders AND every Palestinian leader has also agreed to make a state of the 20% of historic Palestine divided into 3.

If US actually did what they have voted in favor of instead of doing the opposite this conflict would already have been solved a long time ago. Instead of keeping their promise. US and Israel make new excuses, fabricate lies but all US and Israel has to do is keep their promise.

Jews can stay in Israel as civilians and not as ruthless oppressors who unleash mayhem just so that they can maintain their racist aparthed policies.

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the title is "defeiant hamas" but I cant find a single good reason to defaint a terror group as such as hamas. They are trying to fight their way to peace through bloode, doesnt matters whos bloodes, Israeli or palestinian, child or soldier.I have been following their actions since they were elected. I haven't seen them trying any peace talk, Mr. Mahmud Abas could have been the the right choice for the palestinan, a man who wish to reach peach through TALKS and not through VIOLENT as hamas. for the last few months Israel had been hit for so many times and kept quiet, If I was an Israeli, who can't plan his day, knowing when and how close to his house the next rocket will fall, I would expect my country to PROTECT me, which is what Isreal trying to achieve in those military hamas boming. wishing both boming will stop and the palestinian will do the smart act for their country and put aside weapons, open their hearts and make peace, stop attaking and stop choosing hamass' violent way.

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YangYong - do you believe that Israel has a right to exist or not? It's a simple question that could further the discussion greatly.

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itcher74 says:

Every Palestinian leader has agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of Palestine according to international laws and UN resolution 242. US voted in favor of this too btw. So what´s the problem?

OK - I can reply to your statement once you give me your response to my question: Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist? Yes or No?

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Once in a corner, argument exhausted, is that all you have THAT one question? Emotive posturing is not a valid component of discussion so... leave it out.

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OK - I can reply to your statement once you give me your response to my question: Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist? Yes or No?

I think my previous post answered your question. What I am interested in is how to achieve peace and security for all peoples. There are 3 alternatives.

Maintain the status quo. Keep Palestinians under a brutal millitary occupation but peace can never be achieved this way because injustice and oppression will only create resentment.

Israel and Palestine live side by side. Palestine creates a state according to 1967 borders.

Merge Israel and Palestine into 1 state where every person be it Jews or Palestinian get the same political and human rights.

So far every country in the world including USA have voted alternative 2.

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In fact this 'discussion' ended when it started because your conclusions have not followed your premise and when brought to point and shown to be wrong you paste that irrelevant question to people who obviously have a balanced opinion, stance and one not festering with anti-Semitic bile. Semitic being BOTH Jew and Arab.

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YangYong says:

Once in a corner, argument exhausted, is that all you have THAT one question? Emotive posturing is not a valid component of discussion so... leave it out.

To me, this is the defining issue of the entire conflict. If both sides are unable to recognize each other, then there can be no further discussion. Why are you avoiding a simple answer to this question? Yes or No - which is it?

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itcher74 says:

I think my previous post answered your question.

I am sorry, but I am unable to discern whether or not you accept Israels right to exist from your previous post. You do not give a clear answer. Could you state a simple Yes or No to the question: Does Israel have a right to exist?

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So the latest is that Fatah is giving the Israeli airforce targeting coordinates for Hamas assets...

Not really that surprising; this is a cut-throat buisness.

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Thank you for the clarification, itcher74. There probably would be no Hamas rockets were there not Israeli blockade, and there would probably be no blockage if there had been enough international pressure on Israel to end it. Israel has powerful friends, the US and the UK, who have backed its hideous treatment of the people of Gaza. As the Israelis continue their massacre all the US can do is condemn Hamas. In this evil atmosphere the Israelis can do no wrong and the Palestinians can do no right. The conditions are ripe for a holocaust.

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I want to be clear, I think the killing of innocents is deplorable, and I wish there would be a way without the bloodshed. I just hate hypocrites who come out supporting Hamas crying about dead Palestinian women and children while ignoring articles like these... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm ... Or worse, justifying Hamas killing Jews and in the same breath crying over the innocent Palestinian dead. Hamas has killed many innocents, and by that I mean people who have nothing to do with their "oppression". Women, children, civilian men. The vast majority are targeting heavily populated areas to kill as many of the enemy as possible. It doesn't matter that most of those killed probably never held a gun. It doesn't seem to matter that the people on the buses on their way to work aren't soldiers or politicians. BTW, here's a comparison I want people to consider: 2 guys, both angry at the system for kicking them all the time. Both have the desire to punish pretty much anyone. One straps a bomb to himself and blows up a bus in Jerusalem, killing people on thier way to work. Some here seem to be saying he'd be justified. The other rams a truck into random people and goes on a stabbing spree in Akihabara. NO one here would even attempt to be on his side. The parallels are all there, both disgusted with society, both engage in random killing. Why does one get excuses while the other does not?

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Definitely endless war between Israel and Palestine, Hama,,,. Who supports Israel, Who supports Hamas, Who is blamed and who blames who about air-raid in Gaza. Everything seems to be all screwed up. They've been killing each other and they will forever. War will not solve anything better. No future there. God blesses who?

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Thank you for the nice feed back Jean Colmar. The parallels between the Warsaw Gettho and the Gaza Gettho is disturbing. You just have to hope people will wake up and smell the coffee.

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YangYong says:

Yeah, but do you have right to exist?

Well, you could not answer a straight question as to whether or not Israel should exist or not, maybe you can answer your own question instead?

I can't understand why you are avoiding a straight answer to this question unless you believe that Israel does not have a right to exist. I am right - am I not? Is the life of an Arab more important to you than the life of a Jew?

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YangYong:

You know this 'discussion' ended when it started because your conclusions have not followed your premise and when brought to point and shown to be wrong you paste that irrelevant question to people who obviously have a balanced opinion / stance based in objectivity and one not festering with anti-Semitic bile. Semitic being BOTH Jew and Arab. Bonsoir.

The discussion ended because it was not going the way you wanted it to and you stopped discussing it. You have not proven me wrong on anything yet you continue to state that without any evidence to support it. I am neither Jew or Arab and I have no bone in the fight between the two sides in the Middle East. However, it is a fascinating and very sad human struggle. I have found that through "discussions" such as this one with you and with itcher74, that the solution to this problem for Arabs and Palestinians is to simply eliminate the Jews. They do not accept the right of Jews to exist in the Middle East and therefore, would like to get rid of them through any means necessary. This way of thinking makes it likely that some very tragic event will occur in the Middle East - such as a terrible nuclear exchange that destroys a good portion of the region. I am not saying that this will happen, but it is a very real possibilty give the fact that Jews are not accepted by Arabs/Palestinians.

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People you ought to read this: "Barack Obama on Israel's Siege of Gaza: 'No Comment'", By Joshua Frank, ZNet December 30, 2008, http://www.zmag.org/znet/

Frank says in part:

Aside from the fact that Israel's response was anything but judicious, the idea that it was Hamas who broke the six-month truce is a complete fabrication.

On the night of the U.S. election, Israel fired missiles on Gaza that were aimed at closing down a tunnel operation they believed Hamas was building in order to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The carnage left in the wake of Israel's bombing of Gaza over the past six weeks has killed dozens of Palestinians.

"The escalation towards war could, and should, have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid ... two months ago," the Israeli peace group Gush Shalom wrote in a press release. "Since then, the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased."

Over the last seven years only 17 Israeli citizens have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire, which makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians, which are in the midst of an election, to argue that their response has been proportionate or defensible in any way.

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The PLO was voted out for their rampant corruption and Hamas was voted in by the Palestinians because they built hospitals and gave food to the masses from monies gained by sympathizers to the total destruction of Israel.

You get what you pay for.

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I am neither Jew or Arab and I have no bone in the fight between the two sides in the Middle East. However, it is a fascinating and very sad human struggle. I have found that through "discussions" such as this one with you and with itcher74, that the solution to this problem for Arabs and Palestinians is to simply eliminate the Jews. They do not accept the right of Jews to exist in the Middle East

How did you come with this conclusion when I told you already that every Palestinian leader has agreed to make a state according to 67 borders. You are in denial.

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Wolfpack: Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

That's the question I usually focus on. You can't really say you support Israel's right to exist and support an armed struggle against Israel at the same time. That tends to remove some of the clutter from the table.

From there you have to move into the concept of peaceful coexistence. That's where much of what Hamas does becomes impossible to support. The smart ones like YangYong know what's coming next so they refuse to answer the question. The ones who can't see the big picture usually answer it, finally see where it's going, then try to move away from the topic so they can once again support Hamas.

The fact is that anyone who supports an armed struggle against Israel is really supporting the destruction of Palestine. It's a numbers game and Israel can't lose and Hamas can't win. We have 60+ years of evidence showing just how suicidal that policy is. People will trick themselves into believing that an armed conflict makes sense by bringing up false claims of genocide, telling us that Israel just wants to make the Palestinians suffer and they have no other option, etc. They often ask what I would do if I were the Palestinians and the first thing I say is that I wouldn't do what they've been doing since I can clearly see the counter-productive results of their actions. Can't they?

It shows the difference between the policy of peaceful coexistence (which most rational people support) and the policy of revenge (which most irrational people want). Hamas' policy of revenge is the reason why they are isolated by just about every nation on earth except for Iran and Syria. Hamas is even at war with their own people in the West Bank and are so radical that even Egypt had to close their borders. By the way, when will Egypt start receiving their rocket fire in response to border closings?

Israel isn't going to pass legislation or follow an international law that puts Hamas in a better position to kill them whether people like it or not. As long as Hamas demonstrates that they have a policy of revenge then Israel will treat them as hostile and will take steps accordingly. The steps are usually done at the expense of the Palestinian people because option 2 would be to do it at the expense of their own people. Keep the borders open and give the militants a much better chance to attack and create a humanitarian disaster in Israel.....or close the borders and create the humanitarian disaster in Gaza instead. Guess what choice Israel's going to make. Without Hamas' brutal takeover of Gaza and constant rocket fire it's a choice that Israel wouldn't have to make at all. That's what Hamas bring to the table.

What Hamas and the militants want is very simple. They want the right to be able to strike Israel whenever and wherever they want and play the victimization card to tie Israel's hands so they cannot respond. After 60 years of failed Palestinian militant policies it's about time they wake up and accept the fact that Israel isn't going to play along.

From the looks of it Israel has done their homework. My guess is that they're going to make a serious push to cripple Hamas overall. Egypt is playing along. Even Abbas has been saying some eyebrow raising things. Who can Hamas turn to besides Iran? No one is going to help them and from what I've been reading there are more than a few Middle Eastern leaders who won't be sad to see Hamas go. The last thing they want is for their own people to emulate Hamas, which is why Egypt sealed off their own borders when Hamas took over Gaza. They're running out of options pretty quickly.

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How ironic this all is. People salughtering each other in the heart of the most religious area on earth. Still, I guess the incumbants believe that there is a better place awaiting them after it is all over.

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take away the money and all nonsense will stop. But people just want to feed this thing and the civilians lose out.

Don't support Israel, Palestinians, or Hamas.

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Over the last seven years only 17 Israeli citizens have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire, which makes it extremely difficult for Israeli politicians, which are in the midst of an election, to argue that their response has been proportionate or defensible in any way.

I find it more then disturbing reading this "ONLY 17 Israelis" by all means this makes it legitimate for any terror group to kill ,as simple as that its fine to kill as long as you are not passing some abstract amount of people! something is so sick here...my goddess!!

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Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

That's the question I usually focus on. You can't really say you support Israel's right to exist and support an armed struggle against Israel at the same time. That tends to remove some of the clutter from the table.

What Israel are you talking about? What borders? The border which US voted in favour of in the UN security council? What Israel is it that you are talking about. The Israel where there are 600 check points and Jew only high ways which connect to Israel where land is been taken by aggressive settlers backed up by the Israeli occupying force where there is a wall cutting Palestinian towns in occupied West Bank. . And a massacred Gaza under a siege? This Israel is not acceptable.

The fact is that anyone who supports an armed struggle against Israel is really supporting the destruction of Palestine.

Palestinians tried peaceful struggle during the first intifada, they did exactly that. and have agreed to UN resolutions. But thats not the point. The point is. Imagine if you sign a contract it means you agree with the contract. US has signed a contract but are not acting according to the contract they have signed on. Honest people honour agreements. Cooperation is totally dependent on pacta sunt servanda. The respect for contracts.

Ghandi will not work for Palestinians. The population ratio is different. There were only a few thousands against millions of people therefore non violence could work in India. Besised Indians were resisting a civilised country and not crazed racist maniacs who will drop cluster bombs on a residental area.

As long as Hamas demonstrates that they have a policy of revenge then Israel will treat them as hostile and will take steps accordingly.

Everyone knows Israel is much stronger than Hamas. Hamas have home made fire crackers and Israel the state of the art military weapons. So far Hamas have fired 600 fire crackers and killed like 2 and Israel hundreds. But you miss the point. The point is if Hamas comes out of this conflict with even more support Hamas have won. Israel will say this is not a war on the Palestinians but Hamas but even you can´t be as gullible in believing this propaganda. Israel had a blockade which have lasted for 2 years where everyone has been suffering because Israel did not like the election results. Israel used to support Hamas to counter PLO but once Hamas gained most popularity among Palestinians, Israel boycotted them. This is a typical example of colonialism. Divide and conquor.

Hamas is even at war with their own people in the West Bank and are so radical that even Egypt had to close their borders.

This statement is false. You do realize that Gaza is under an Israeli occupation. What happened was Hamas won the elections but Usrael wanted Fateh to rule Palestine so there was a coup backed by Usrael to let Abbas rule. Then Usrael armed and funded Fateh. But thats not the point either. The point is Israel is not interested in peace. They have had many chances to peace but they never learn and need to neutralize leaders and make them puppets. Usrael calls these people "moderate" Usrael have labeled leaders extreme and moderate in order to not achieve peace.

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jeancolmar

There probably would be no Hamas rockets were there not Israeli blockade

Never ceases to amaze me how clueless leftists can be.

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Helter Skelter, it never amazes me.

Miss Jean and I are old 'friends' in a manner of speakin'.

I see Israel is now usin' a late model of bunker busters.

I'm sure by this time, Hamas leadership has gotten their family out of harm's way and left the people hoping they won't be the recipient of a mis-directed 'smart bomb'.

As usual, Muslim supremacists start the sh*t and Israel has no recourse but to respond.

I see in news elsewhere that the self-murder of members of their population is workin' accordin' to Hamas' plans. I believe 'students' or some such have busted their way into Britain via Iran.

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Smith

It's YOU who knows nothing of the difference between warfare and terrorism,

If a Soldier fires on innocent civilians on purpose is he committing a war crime and will be prosecuted as such?

If a terrorist blows up a market full of innocent civilians is he engaged in legimate warfare?

Is that Clear enough for you as to the difference.

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"hamas" as same as "el qauida", are going on "easy kill", the world have said once: NO! which is the answer and the only answer to your question. The world has decided that the jewish people should exist, live, protect them self and all in this tiny location, the location didn't make it easy for the jewish people, but they found the way to make peace with all their neightbors, all but the sick terrorist- syria and palestain!

the jewish people should not live under fear around the world or in Israel, therfore, go on Israeli, live and practice the right of protecting yourself.

Don't let crazy lunatics terrorist as groups leaders, scare you, fight your way to freedome! you deserve it! you have all rights! you paid your right in over 6 millions dead jewish in the 40.

beside, Isreal is doing the world "dirty work". cause after all if she wont finish hamas now, in few years hamas will finish you guys, the "free world" people, in any place you are living your "free" life- as if you are not muslem, or fanatic, you should go- that hamas and all terror fanatic muslem groups strategy.

so, if you decide to live, support Israel to finish this terrorist for your own safety!

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"Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?"

"What Israel are you talking about?...( blah blah blah )... This Israel is not acceptable."

I guess not.

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Query:

What would happen to Israel if the US withdraws economic/military aid? The US has real problems, and I don't know how Israel survives w/ limited raw materials. I have extremely limited understanding of that region, but been exposed to those in US Agencies.

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you are talking about $$$$, well, you do forget who control most of the fanancial markets in the world. Hitler did not finish his job, very rich jewish people support the state which will always support Israel fighting terrorists such as Iraq, al quida, hamas, north korea and other cruel countries!

for the one who do not believe in Israel right to exist, what are you doing here? we are talking about a realistic problem which you dont even believe exist, do you live in ilusions? have you ever visited this "not exist country"? it is mostly beautiful and real!!

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on a second thought, how come you are worry for Isreal support? do you know how much cost a single missle the hamas lunch everyday? and they lunched more then 100 aday! where the money comes from? well, all the humanitary donations they receive buy....TNT!! no school, hospitals and others, just rockets and TNT. all their muslim countries friends, who are so worried about their safty should help them not with money, cause we allready know where the money goes, they should help them with practicle help!

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terrorists such as Iraq, al quida, hamas, north korea and other cruel countries!

You are so confused I wouldn't even know where to start. And so Israel has a right to exist? But tell me, does Palestine have a right to exist then?

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Paolo27th, after the Israeli gift of Gaza, why did Hamas throw away their golden opportunity of tryin' to turn it into a peaceful garden for they and their families instead of turnin' into a battlefield?

When the Arab and Palestinian Islamo-fascist supremacists learn to love their children more than they hate the Israelis then they will have peace and move forward.

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they have the right to exist, but not KILL to exist. live and let live!!!

we saw way too many muslim terror group taking way too many life all around the world, I dont believe they are comprihent the meanning of "live and let live", they show that they strongly here to take human life in god name.

I am sorry if I sound confuse to you, it must be my age, exuse me.

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Don't support Israel, Palestinians, or Hamas.

That is in fact the American public's opinion.

But no elected official will take such a position. Obama's reasoninng bothered me when, on a trip to Israel earlier this year, he declared: "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

Yet, as Glenn Greenwald points out in his daily salon.com column, that logic applies equally well to supporting the other side: "if my family and I were forced to live under a 4-decade foreign occupation and had our land blockaded and were not allowed to exit and my children couldn't access basic nutrition or medical treatment, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Palestinians to do the same thing."

Such personalization reflects nothing more than a juvenile refusal to view the world through any prism besides total self-centeredness.

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To Alchan:

Are you an "Israeli"? When Japanese researchers stated what you stated, they were considered "anti-semitic".

"....you are talking about $$$$, well, you do forget who control most of the fanancial markets in the world. Hitler did not finish his job, very rich jewish people support the state which will always support Israel......"

So, from what you posted, even if the US goes into a severe economic downturn, the people in the financial markets will support/fund military actions such as this episode - the US is not critical in the equation? So, even w/ considerable isolation, Israel can function w/ a fully equipped military and actions like Hamas have little significance? The background that you mentioned is extremely relevant to what is happening today.

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Betzee I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say, "I'd do anything to stop it." You and I "might do anything to stop it" if we were Israelis coming under rocket fire or Palestinians living under occupation. But in reality you or I wouldn't put a bomb on our son and tell him to blow up a restaurant. Neither would Obama. The logic doesn't apply equally if you we have different opinions of what "doing anything" would include.

Peaceful coexistence is the only possible solution. Painting terrorism as "resistance" is just a way of supporting terrorism without having to say that one supports terrorism.

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The point that the writer I quoted was making was that the Israeli bloodbath is a disproportionate response to whatever perceived threat the perpetrators felt from Hamas.

It is so righteous that the above poster should be indignant about the word only and have no words of contempt or even regret over the hundreds of innocent civilians Israel has slaughtered so far. Is that because they are only Palestinians?

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but when will iran come out to play

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jeancolmar:

" The point that the writer I quoted was making was that the Israeli bloodbath is a disproportionate response to whatever perceived threat the perpetrators felt from Hamas. "

So, what would a "proportionate response" be in your opinion? Should Israel shoot rocket back willy-nilly into Gazah, the way Hamas has been rocketing Israel? A missile for a missile, so to say? That would be mean a couple of Isreali missiles landing somewhere in Gazah every day, day after day. Without precise aim, the way Hamas does. Would that be OK then?

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WilliB,

The principle of proportionality means the amount of force should be in proportion with your stated military objective. So the question you have to ask is - Are the bombings of Universities etc in proportion to to objective of the stopping of firing home made rockets?

I see you have the same misunderstanding about the principle of proportionality of John Bolton and his friends at Fox News.

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WillB: So, what would a "proportionate response" be in your opinion?

Don't bother asking that question to someone who supports the destruction of Israel. Even if they do give you an answer, it will be a lie. In reality they support a disproportionate response from Palestine into Israel until Israel is gone.

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Gavinova: Are the bombings of Universities etc in proportion to to objective of the stopping of firing home made rockets?

Non-sequitur. The question still stands: What would you describe as a proportionate response?

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So what Israel are you talking about Superlib which has a right to exist?

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A proportionate response to Hamas' use of Gaza as a base for lobbing rockets into Israel is whatever it takes to stop the rocket attacks. There would be no Israel reponse to the rocket attacks if Hamas were not launching rockets at Israel in the first place. That said, Israel is targeting Hamas and is not just shooting aimlessly into Gaza. But since Hamas uses civlians as human shields that leaves Israel with two choices: 1) allow Hamas to launch rockets indiscrimately at Israel until an inept government is overthrown by a terrorized people, or 2) respond to the provocation by targeting Hamas and the rockets.

Hamas purposefully uses civilians as human shields - they state this publicly and have no qualms about it. They are not only terrorizing Israel, but Palestinians. The sad and pathetic fact of this matter is that Palestinians have been taught to hate Jews so much, that they accept this situation and support Hamas anyway.

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At the end its going to be like last war, rocket firing will not stop and Israel has to think of another war to finish what she wanted to finish this time. After five days of bombardment still Hamas can irritate Israel and reach 40 kilometer deeper. I believe both are stupid and arrogant, they know they can reach their goal by using force and killing innocent people.

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Betzee: But that's not Greenwald's point which is to illuminate the type of logic such personalization rests on and how it's used to dismiss the arguments (instead of refuting them) of others:

I'm sorry Betzee but you're just the messenger. I read one of your shorter copies but anything more than a few sentences I tend to skip over. As we used to say in sales, "Talk to the decision-maker." You're just the delivery boy who delivers fresh, hot propaganda to our computer 48 hours after any even happens. Perhaps you should take off the acrylic hat and car sign and give us your own opinion instead of providing endless links criticizing the US and Israel from others. I know the tips can be addictive, but at some point you're going to graduate from college and you'll need a job in the real world.

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Anyone who isn't silly, knows that Israel are being beastly bullies.

Why oh why? Especially at this time of year. Now they are lining up thousands of soldiers to invade and slaughter the Palestinians.

BTW for those who say it is not genocide because there haven't been more deaths, well darlings, most have bomb shleters to protect against the terrorist attacks.

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We know, itcher. But really, what can we do? Maybe things will get better in the future. Best to not think about it too much.

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Correction- Israel has population of 7.3 million,

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SuperLib: "What would you describe as a proportionate response?"

Not what was dished out.

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Superlib,

Non-sequitur. The question still stands: What would you describe as a proportionate response?

I think that Hamas military targets are okay. I do not think that Government buildings and Universities etc are military targets. There is NO EVIDENCE that they are being used for military purposes and a threat to Israel.

I tend to agree with Human Rights Watch statement;

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/30/israelhamas-civilians-must-not-be-targets

Firing rockets into civilian areas with the intent to harm and terrorize Israelis has no justification whatsoever, regardless of Israel's actions in Gaza...At the same time, Israel should not target individuals and institutions in Gaza solely because they are part of the Hamas-run political authority, including ordinary police. Only attacks on military targets are permissible, and only in a manner that minimizes civilian casualties.

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Wowwwwww......

I got a reaction from my post from US Agency personnel.

To Alchan:

Are you an "Israeli"? When Japanese researchers stated what you stated, they were considered "anti-semitic".

"....you are talking about $$$$, well, you do forget who control most of the fanancial markets in the world. Hitler did not finish his job, very rich jewish people support the state which will always support Israel......"

So, from what you posted, even if the US goes into a severe economic downturn, the people in the financial markets will support/fund military actions such as this episode - the US is not critical in the equation? So, even w/ considerable isolation, Israel can function w/ a fully equipped military and actions like Hamas have little significance? The background that you mentioned is extremely relevant to what is happening today.

They are using proxies to convey their message, but the one surprising emotion evoked was "fear". Doesn't make sense since even if the US is economically broken, the US would back Israel. However, the US support is more critical than I presumed. I don't think the Hamas attack w/ rockets compare w/ anything like f16s fully loaded.

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see, the thing you and the rest of the world seems hard to get is: Hamas are terrorist! palestine is not just like any other democratic country! you should read what I wrote last week, I said that the palastinian people had their chance to choose for a change: Mr. Abas or Hamas, they choosed hamas, they made their future way with a tettor group as leaders. now, you would like Israel to wait a year or two, the palastinien will have their f16 and more by then, and they will use it against CHILDRENS on busses, supermarkets, malls, train station and anywhere they can, the israeli people already experience it, Israel should not go back into this situation once again, The Israeli should save them self from those people! the only way right now is war- which is sad for both. the israeli army uses their best force gainst militains, terrorist, soldiers and makes a great job! as much as it possible. I mean, If you married to a terrorist, you have children with him, you sleep under the same roof , your chances are clear, you are going to be hit with your family, so DO NOT COOPORATE with terrorist! about the US, it is much more complicate than you wrote, as we open a new year with new goverment in the US and new prices for oil, the economy is hard to predict, but I am most ceartin that the US will back up Israel, is it continue to do now days by saying:"....avoide ceviliance...." which gives green light for the fight.

personaly for your question: I am not Israeli or Japanese, I keep my right to undiscover my identity, but I am not Israeli neither Japanese. I am very involved with the situation and wish to support Israel fight in any possible way! they have the right to protect their people! and that all they do! why do they use safisticates methoes , because they can, they should keep on figting anyone who wish to finish the Jewish race!

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To Alchan:

The US can't abandon Israel, or there would be serious repercussions. Also, you have Israel equipped by the US to fight Hamas, who have nothing but homemade rockets.

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homemade rockets? where do you get your information? I am warmly reccomand you to check other news networks! they have several sort of missiles, some of them can reach deep insisde Israel as the world could see in the passing week. and as I said before, and as the foriegn minister of Israel stated in france last night : if you give them time as we did in the past, the only theme for them is to get more saficticate wapons. so, should the Isreali army sit aside and wait for them to get as strong as they wish to?

more than that. to the world to know: Hisbala, hamas, and all other muslim extremers = Terrorist, are not going to be full and satisfite from just making Israel venish, they are here to KILL THE NEW WORLD, if you live in a democratic country know that after Israel gone, your country is next. Muslim people cannot stand freedom, they should have everything down in one way onley muslim and fanatic!!!!

I really dont understand how come all the world like to support them but non of their neightbor/muslim countries would open their gates/wallets/hearts and offer them the possibility to immigrate to their country. those countries are rich, they can support then with new housing and just as France/germany/England and other European countries let other muslim immigrations into their country and support them fully.

Israeli has no other Jewish country to go to, many Israeli every year leave Israel because of this situation, to canada and other non jewish countries, there is no option to the jewish people, not like the palestinians! many Israeli/jewish people will refuse to go overseas at all scared of nazisim. no easy way for jewish/Israelis around this world

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Breakin' News: The Israeli government just gave their OK for a ground assault of Gaza. They left it up to their military to do whatever they feel they have to do.

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Breakin' News: Israeli ground forces have begun their move in to Gaza.

Hamas failed to knock if off even after 24-hours heads-up warning from the Israeli government that this would be the next step if they didn't.

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Thenewfront, I don't know why you say I love war.

I've only told you what was gonna happen if Hamas didn't knock it off.

You felt Hamas is the righteous party in this affair - and in the real world outside of postin' in cyberspace - you would've encouraged Hamas to keep it up, yes?

You do know that what you and I post here in cyberspace means nothin', yes? Affects nothin', right?

Again, I told you what would happen. A (Geico?) caveman would've seen it comin'.

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you know you are right by their lack of tolerence

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