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Defiant Israel says activists prepared to fight

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“Huwaida Arraf, a leader of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, denounced Netanyahu’s claims as “another pack of lies.”

Arraf is without doubt a honest man that nobody could possibly fail to believe, granted nobody knows who he is or what he really believes but given that he is not Israeli he must be telling the truth, mustn’t he?

“Arraf said all the passengers were screened for weapons, and that partners in the mission, including IHH, agreed not to bring weapons on board.”

Arraf also said that Santa Claus had said he would have liked to have been on one of the ships but this really is a busy time for him. But he will be stopping off in Gaza on the 6th. of January as usual.

Why Netanyahu’s even bothering to make the effort I really don’t know, he could say the world is round and next thing we know the world’s press would be proclaiming the discovery that the world really is flat after all.

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As soon as Israel eases the blockade, weapons will begin to flow into Gaza. As for the individuals on the ship, some of in the military have had training in improvised weaponry. It seems that those involved in the clash had at least a crude understanding of this concept. A mass of people attacking me with clubs and knives certainly warrants being shot at for self preservation.

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The zionists can whine all they want, the illegal blockade is a crime against humanity AND they had absolutely no business boarding those ships.

some of in the military have had training in improvised weaponry

Yes, I hear they can do wonders with a deck chair...

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Fight a boarding party and you get what you deserve. Idiots. This goes for those who support them too. The UN should be looking into the personal histories of the deceased as well. That'll tell a story.

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So the people in Gaza can`t have weapons but Israel can? Sounds a bit hypocritical.

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Of course gaza can't have weapons, it is only Israel that can have "bassically" FREE weapons.

Also if gaza gets better weapons Israel can't keep up their current rate of killing XX Palestinians for each Israeli killed or injured.

[Sarcasm off]

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So the people in Gaza can`t have weapons but Israel can? Sounds a bit hypocritical.

Yes, Palestinian terrorists should not have weapons. Even better, Palestinians should not support terrorism, but unfortunately it seems to be ingrained in their culture.

Why Netanyahu’s even bothering to make the effort I really don’t know,

Right on. But we've learned how valuable world input is... ) Iraq War, Iranian nukes, N Korea nukes, rampant terrorism. Israel, keep doing what you're doing!

The UN should be looking into the personal histories of the deceased as well.

The U.N. should be disbanded. It's a useless and corrupt organization.

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The only reason Gaza fires some home-made rockets is because they are held prisoners under inhumane conditions. If Israel wants to stop the rockets, all it has to do is start treating the Palestinians like humans.

But I predict this conflict will come to an end very soon, since Israel has been shooting itself in the foot on a regular basis in recent years.

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Why is the press talking about a "blockade", anyway? All that Israel insists on is to check for weapons among those "aid" deliveries.

If they allow shipments to go directly to Gaza without inspection, that of course means that Iran has a missile outpost right next to the hated Jewish state.

Jog my memory... didn´t the US blockade Cuba when Chrushtshew put missiles there? Where was the "aid activist" crowd then?

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The U.N. should be disbanded. It's a useless and corrupt organization.

Agree that the UNSC has become useless(to a degree) as the members powers don't reflect todays society(ditto for votinjg rights).

UN is not UNSC and is not NATO(as was pointed out).

So what is a better alternative(let everybody do as they want = Anarchy) or another "League of Nations", etc?

UN does a LOT of good, just look at the FULL list of their agencies.

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Does anyone actually believe what Israel says anymore?

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Netanyahu hates the thought of peace and always has. He tries to be a bully. The rest of the world sees right through him.

The haters on JT join in chorus with Benny. They hate the Muslims, hate Obama, hate the UN, hate humanitarian aid and hate anyone who doesn't hate with them.

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smithinjapan at 11:44 AM JST - 7th June

Does anyone actually believe what Israel says anymore?

TheQuestion, Molenir, grafton, WilliB, manfromamerica, djuice, HelterSkelter and the others that are so familiar to us believe every single word that Israel puts out.

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Why is the press talking about a "blockade", anyway? All that Israel insists on is to check for weapons among those "aid" deliveries.

No. The blockade is not only to block weapons. There are many things (certain foods, spices, cement,...) that are not permitted to enter Gaza. Gazans are in great need of medicines and medical facilities. Gazans are not allowed to exit Gaza freely to get medical attention or to attend schools abroad, the must get special permission from the zionist occupiers and this permission is not always granted. The blockade is a crime against humanity, those who defend it should be ashamed.

BTW, why did the zionists confiscate the videos from the flotilla? Were they considered weapons?

Everything that was aboard those ships was fully declared, and I know that at least some of the ships have offered to let the IDF inspect the cargo at sea; the zionists refused.

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Does anyone actually believe what Israel says anymore?

Good point. Although they have been caught lying countless times, their talking points are continually repeated on the MSM. Many who just don't know any better seem to believe these talking points... and repeat them on blogs and forums.

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This seems to be a kind of turning point for Israel, and it doesn't look particularly good. Even with video of soldiers being attacked when boarding the ships, it seems that there is a very large group of people who are willing to ignore that, and that's pretty disturbing. In the past you had the fringe players who would ignore things like that, but now we're seeing it happen more in the mainstream and that's the real concern.

I posted this link before:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

It really sums it up for me. The reporter is talking about masked Israeli soldiers storming the boat with images of injured people on the ground, but the actual video is of Israeli soldiers being attacked when they land on the boat. The newscaster asks about passengers taking weapons away from the soldiers and trying to use them, and the reporter refuses to acknowledge that, instead talking about how chaos can happen with so many people on a ship at night. It's like the news is right there in front of them and they're just ignoring it and saying what they want to say instead.

As more and more people continue to ignore what they're reading and seeing it's going to be more and more difficult for Israel to continue. Each situation should be analyzed, but instead I think more and more people are willing to ignore the facts of any one particular situation and move straight to condemnation because of their hatred of Israel. It's alarming to see the extent of that happening here, and it will probably get worse for future incidents. Unfortunately that makes it appealing for other militants to create more incidents...

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Sabi - The zionists can whine all they want, the illegal blockade is a crime against humanity AND they had absolutely no business boarding those ships.

Ah, but since its in fact a legal blockade thats being carried out, I guess its ok then. The only ones saying its illegal are the anti-semitic haters who believe the only good Jew, is a dead Jew. Oh, hey Sabiwabi, didn't see you there...

The only reason Gaza fires some home-made rockets is because they are held prisoners under inhumane conditions. If Israel wants to stop the rockets, all it has to do is start treating the Palestinians like humans.

And of course the way they do that, is allow to simply surrender, and line up to be executed by Pal death squads. Out of curiosity, do you actually have a reasonable suggestion? Or are you just another one of the typical anti-semitic haters we see so much of here on JT.

TheQuestion, Molenir, grafton, WilliB, manfromamerica, djuice, HelterSkelter and the others that are so familiar to us believe every single word that Israel puts out.

I wouldn't go that far. There are 2 sides to every conflict. However I do question how anyone can believe the nonsensical pap being fed to the media by the Pal extremists.

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The haters on JT join in chorus with Benny. They hate the Muslims, hate Obama, hate the UN, hate humanitarian aid and hate anyone who doesn't hate with them.

Ah, so anyone on the opposite side is a lover then yes? They Love to see dead Jews, they Love to see the Pals committing murder, they love to see Hamas succeed, they love to see everyone turn their back on Israel. They love anyone who is a filthy anti-semite.

Of course everyone else is a hater. Hating violence, hating what Hamas is doing to their own people, hating what the middle-east has become because of the extremism of all sides. Hating those whose only goal is to murder Jews and destroy Israel. Yes, I think I'd much rather be a hater, then your kind of lover.

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Well, I was a little surprised to learn that Joe Biden was a world leader. However, someone in the current administration has to do the job. There's a difference between being the top guy in a powerful country and being a leader (witness Japan).

That being said, I'm amused to the point of boredom by Netanyahu’s charges. If I were going to try to run an Israeli blockade, I'd like to think that I would find it prudent to be "prepared to fight". Would it have been better to go the Gandhi route? Maybe. But it certainly wouldn't have highlighted Israel's continued "boot-on-the-neck" policy.

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Case in point.....before we had Sabi, a hardcore anti-Semite who mostly existed on the fringe. He is the typical attack dog who goes to message boards daily to spread anti-Israeli propaganda no matter how absurd the information was. He was mostly ignored, or those who did side with the Palestinians generally distanced themselves from him because he was more of a liability.

But more and more I'm seeing agreement with sabi and other members like adaydream and smithinjapan, two guys whose hearts are in the right place but really just didn't understand much about the situation. More and more they're starting to sound like Sabi, and that is very alarming to me. Being in agreement with a known anti-semite doesn't seem to carry the stigma that it once did...

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SezWho: Would it have been better to go the Gandhi route? Maybe. But it certainly wouldn't have highlighted Israel's continued "boot-on-the-neck" policy.

You mean it would have been hard to create a news story with Israelis killing people unless you include a mob beating them with sticks? Well, I guess I'd have to agree with that...heh. The Ghandi approach has only showed passengers being treated well and released without injury. I can see why that would be useless (and even counterproductive) to some.

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Even with video of soldiers being attacked when boarding the ships, it seems that there is a very large group of people who are willing to ignore that, and that's pretty disturbing.

I don't think it's so much the case that a large group of people are willing to ignore this. I think it's more the case that a large group of people interpret the act of boarding a ship as a hostile act and that those who are boarded have a right to self-defense.

What is more disturbing to me is that a powerful group of people think that the Israelis have the right to blockade Gaza.

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Are the neo-communists against Egypt as well? I hear all the anti-semitic rants against Israel, but no one seems to be criticizing Egypt. They control part of the Gaza border. I guess they hate Muslims too?

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You mean it would have been hard to create a news story with Israelis killing people unless you include a mob beating them with sticks?

No. I don't think I mean that. I don't think that any fair reading of my comment would construe it in that way.

I think, to give myself a handicap and use your words, that I meant something more like: it would have been hard to create a news story which even Israeli apologists find unsettling unless you include a mob beating soldiers with sticks.

Was Obama unavailable to take Netanyahu's call? Or did Obama just register his disapproval by delegating the problem to world leader Biden?

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I think the reason Egypt is criticized less may be because they were involved in border blockage at shared borders while Israel was involved in blockage at their border and also blocking the Palestinian's own land. Gaza strip is Palestinian soil and the Israelis have no business blockading it. I am also critical of Egypt for not leaving the border more accessible. If not open constantly than during interim time frames. The Palestinians are suffering. Many cannot work because trade is so restricted by the blockade. They need humanitarian aid.

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I think the reason Egypt is criticized less may be because they were involved in border blockage at shared borders while Israel was involved in blockage at their border

"I think"?? You are criticizing Israel. Gaza has a long border with Egypt? Do you criticize Egypt for starving and killing Palestinians? There is a long border with Egypt?

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The Zionist are the ones who say we support murdering Jews. They have to lie because the truth is very desirable. Starving people in Palestine need food. Medical equipment, supplies and medicine are vitally needed. That would be why most of the world agrees the naval blockade is wrong. That would be why most of the world agrees it is wrong to storm ships in international waters. That is why the huge majority of the world believes in delivering humanitarian aid and some are willing to do it themselves - like the evil Irish. I don't hate Jews. I don't like Hamas. Those who say different are liars. Most of the Palestinian people are not terrorists and just want their own land, free trade and peace.

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"the blockaded Gaza Strip"

Gaza wouldn't have to be blockaded if there wasn't a terrorist government in charge there.

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manfromamerica, I could not have made it more simple for you. NAVAL BLOCKADE OF PALESTINIAN LAND. The NAVAL BLOCKADE is NOT a shared border. Egypt is protecting a shared border. I do not fault Israel for protecting its shared border.

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I do not fault Israel for protecting its shared border.

But you do complain about this blockade, whose only goal is one of self defense. Humanitarian supplies get through without problem, only dual purpose materials and actual weapons, have a difficult time getting through. So when you are condemning the blockade, you're not saying you think humanitarian supplies should be allowed through, they already are. You are coming out and being supportive of violence against Israel. Thats it. Its hard to see that as being anything except anti-semitic. Someone who supports Hamas, is essentially someone who supports murdering Jews. There is no lie in this, its merely extending the truth of your own logic. You can lie about it all you like, and try to claim you're merely supporting the poor downtrodden pals, but any way you look at it, that is not the case.

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The NAVAL BLOCKADE is NOT a shared border

Okay then, what's the difference between Iranian-funded North Korean missiles and other munitions being smuggled in overland via the Sinai desert, and smuggled in by sea?

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Food and Medicines, and other humanitarian supplies get through. About 10 tons per day. Weapons and multi-use items do not. So when you condemn Israel for its blockade, you are saying nothing except you think Hamas should be able to freely import the weapons they want. Thats something neither Israel nor Egypt agrees with you on.

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Molenir said:

Thats [That's] something neither Israel nor Egypt agrees with you on.

You are clueless on why Eqypt closed its borders. Your logic fails because Egypt just open the border.

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goodDonkey - It's very simple - Egypt restricts supplies to Gaza. Do you hate Egypt?

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The newscaster asks about passengers taking weapons away from the soldiers and trying to use them...

Thank you for at least acknowledging that the commandos boarded the flotilla armed. Many on this forum were repeating some nonsense about them being only armed with paintball guns.

Anyway, any group of armed commandos boarding uninvited an unarmed civilian boat in international waters deserved to get beaten up, especially if they have a reputation of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.

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Everyone knows the trickle of food and medicine the Palestinians receive is not enough to sustain life without hunger and people perishing from lack of proper medical care.

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manfromamerica, It is very simple. I don't hate Israel. Israel is blockading foreign soil.

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goodDonkey - so is Egypt. But the leftists venom is reserved for Israel, and they ignore ANY complication caused by Muslims.

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Everyone knows the trickle of food and medicine the Palestinians receive is not enough to sustain life without hunger and people perishing from lack of proper medical care.

Blame Egypt. They refuse to let more in.

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Plenty of American Jews want the blockade ended.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/06/02/1988788/what-others-are-saying-israeli.html

http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2010/06/05/columns/7474830.txt

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For those who deny the blockade, from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm):

"Amnesty International has dubbed the blockade "collective punishment" resulting in a "humanitarian crisis"; UN officials have described the situation as "grim", "deteriorating" and a "medieval siege""

"For much of the three years since Hamas took control of Gaza, its 1.5m people have relied on less than a quarter of the volume of imported supplies they received in December 2005."

"The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa's list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner."

"Many other items - ranging from cars to fridges to computers - are generally refused entry.Building materials such as cement, concrete and wood were nearly always refused entry until early 2010, when some glass, wood, cement and aluminium were allowed in."

"Agriculture is also an important employer, but with exports at almost zero, thousands of tonnes of flowers, fruit and vegetables have been destroyed or sold at a loss on the local market."

"The World Health Organization says the blockade has lead to a general "worsening of the health conditions of the population" and "accelerated the degeneration" of the health system."

"WHO says that in December 2009, permission for 21% of patients was denied or delayed, and 27 patients in total died during the year while waiting for referrals to Israel."

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manfromamerica, I like Palestinians and Israelis. I am a very balanced individual. I don't hate Jews. Do you like Palestinians?

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goodDonkey - to answer your question, I support a free Palestinian state. However, while Palestinians support terrorism, they deserve nothing.

Now, why do you ignore Egypt's role in the "starving" of the Palestinians?

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Plenty of American Jews want the blockade ended.

Isn't that nice. Well, I suppose there were also some Arabs who wanted to make peace with Israel. Unfortunately I can't show you any links because the Arabs who expressed this viewpoint are either dead or in prison.

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Everyone knows the trickle of food and medicine the Palestinians receive is not enough to sustain life without hunger and people perishing from lack of proper medical care.

Yes, you're right. We constantly hear about the continuing famine in Gaza, and how the people there are all starving due to lack of food, or dying because of improper medical care... Oh wait, no we're not. Got anything else, or are you finally ready to admit you support the terrorists bringing in weapons. That is what this has always been about. Its got nothing to do with food and supplies that are already being delivered, every single day.

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Now, why do you ignore Egypt's role in the "starving" of the Palestinians?

I criticized Egypt many posts ago; try to keep up. Egypt is open now; try to keep up. Egypt was guarding their border, Israel guards their border and Palestinian land. Try to keep up.

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goodDOnkey - Egypt is not "open", they still restrict the amount of supplies going in. But if it is "open" as you say, then your argument about starving people is totally false. Either way, you are wrong.

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guys... stop with the more personal comments. The let's stick to the story here, namely that the phony charity is supporting Hamas terrorists, and the Israelis have every right to stop them.

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I totally agree with Molenir and Beelz.

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Israelis have every right to stop them

What right does the zionist regime have to prevent the Gazans to import light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo, conditioner, cars, fridges, computers, cement, concrete, wood?

And what right does the zionist regime have to prevent the export of flowers, fruit, and vegetables?

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Ah, but the trouble is, thats not what they really want to import. And oddly enough, most of that normally gets through as well. At different times these things have been stopped. Israel has never said what is on their proscribed list, sometimes things get through, sometimes it doesn't. They didn't allow some items, and now they do. But what they're most interested in, is what you deliberately left off your list Sabi. Weapons. Why did you leave off the item Hamas most desperately wants to import, and the primary reason for the blockade?

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UN Peace-keepers are NOT the only part of the UN, how about the otgher agencies that feed starving children in africa, fight for chidlrens rights, etc.

They treat the symptoms not the cause. There are starving and abused people because of corrupt, self serving, or virtually nonexistant governments. A UN sanction carries less weight than a slap on the wrist delivered by Stephen Hawkings. In the long run no country particularly cares about how other countries view it. Israel doesn't seem to care, Palestine certainly doesn't, North Korea flat out enjoys the negative attention, China, the U.S, and every nation in the world is going to do their own thing motivated by self interest until somebody else throws down the gauntlet. Probably another nation trying to take a piece of the pie from someone else.

TheQuestion, Molenir, grafton, WilliB, manfromamerica, djuice, HelterSkelter and the others that are so familiar to us believe every single word that Israel puts out.

You consider me someone that you're familiar with...I don't know what to say...I'm touched.

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What right does the zionist regime have to prevent the Gazans to import light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo, conditioner, cars, fridges, computers, cement, concrete, wood?

They don't stop those. Israel even offered to deliver it for the flotilla. However, the terrorists behind the flotilla didn't want that.

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They don't stop those. Israel even offered to deliver it for the flotilla. However, the terrorists behind the flotilla didn't want that.

Yep they did, and many were blocked up until they raided the flotilla.

The flotilla declared everything they were carrying, and at least some even offered to let the IDF inspect it at sea, but the zionist pirate terrorists did not want that.

So what valid reason would the zionist regime have to block the entry of things like fridges, shampoo, coffee or the export of flowers, fruits, and vegetable. The Gazans are held prisoners, and zionist regime and all who support them should go to hell.

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The flotilla declared everything they were carrying, and at least some even offered to let the IDF inspect it at sea, but the zionist pirate terrorists did not want that.

Come on Sabi, they admitted what their goal was. Why can't you? Their goal as they stated, was simply to break the Israeli blockade. The only reason the blockade is up, is to prevent the importation of weapons by Hamas. Thus, the goal of this flotilla, was simply, to allow Hamas to import weapons. Thats all.

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The only reason the blockade is up, is to prevent the importation of weapons by Hamas.

Nonsense, if that were true, you'd be able to give me valid reasons for blocking all those things which have nothing to do with weapons or blocking the EXPORT of their products. What they are doing is collective punishment, they want the people of Gaza to suffer, plain and simple.

In my opinion, the flotilla had 2 goals:

1- provide the people of Gaza desperately needed supplies.

2- bring this illegal blockade (and crime against humanity) to the attention of the world.

The flotilla definitely succeeded in the second goal. This time, it doesn't matter how much their media whores try to spin it, the Israelis are the bad guys, the terrorists, the pirates.

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The flotilla definitely succeeded in the second goal. This time, it doesn't matter how much their media whores try to spin it, the Israelis are the bad guys, the terrorists, the pirates.

Heh, at least until people watch the video, then they see the truth pretty quickly. Well, unless they're die hard anti-semites, or have been brainwashed by the Islamists.

On the first point, well theres no question that the blockade has been stifling. I'll agree that much. While food and medicines can get through without much difficulty, other items, luxury items an such have a much more difficult time getting through. Some of this is because these items are dual use. As in they can be used for more then just what they're designed for. However thats really not the point. This blockade isn't about starving the Pals, or punishing them so much as it is about preventing the importation of weapons into Gaza. Thats all. People call the blockade collective punishment, but please note, the ones saying that are all on the side of the terrorists.

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bring this illegal blockade (and crime against humanity) to the attention of the world. The flotilla definitely succeeded in the second goal. This time, it doesn't matter how much their media whores try to spin it, the Israelis are the bad guys, the terrorists, the pirates.

But Sir: if gaining the "attention of the world" were so important, how come after decades it hasn't helped the Palestinian cause one twit? If anything, their situation seems to be getting worse. So even if you choose to accord yourself with a yee-haa victory, it's just a Pyrrhic victory. The moral of the story being, outside of the Muslim world, shock, indignation and outrage have a shelf life of 72 hours max, and then it's time to watch football.

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Molenir,

Luxury items, yeah like a fridge. Hmmm, I have been living a life in luxury without even knowing it. Some foods and medicines do get through, but not enough. And you're missing the point that Gazans are human beings who have as much right to import "luxury items" as you or I do.

And I see that you continue to ignore my question about what right do the zionists have to block the EXPORT of Gaza's products.

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People call the blockade collective punishment, but please note, the ones saying that are all on the side of the terrorists

Wow, you've just made me spray my keyboard!

Amnesty International is on the side of the terrorists?

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Hey and how about the motives of the zionist regime to conduct this deadly raid.

During the days leading to the massacre, the Israeli government prepared the Israeli society for the carnage at sea. It lied about the flotilla carrying weapons and terrorists. This malicious media spin was there to prepare the Israeli public for a full scale Israeli deadly military operation in international waters. The Israeli government and military knew full well where they were heading.

The zionist regime is just a bunch of criminal murderers, they always were, but now most of the world has realized it.

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The zionist regime is just a bunch of criminal murderers, they always were, but now most of the world has realized it.

Now? I've been watching people kill each other in the Middle East since the BBC resumed broadcasting in 1946. Glad they have football matches on satellite now -- pass the beer!

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PeaceWarrior: Amnesty International is on the side of the terrorists?

I don't think AI is on the side of the terrorists, but I would guess that they'll write off a certain amount of terrorism against Israel in order to help the average Gazan.

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SezWho2: What is more disturbing to me is that a powerful group of people think that the Israelis have the right to blockade Gaza.

...and what disturbs others is that there are people who see the arming of Hamas as an outcome they can live with.

By the way, do you still hold the view that Israel does not have the right to exist?

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manfromamerica: I hear all the anti-semitic rants against Israel, but no one seems to be criticizing Egypt.

Egypt isn't criticized because they aren't Israel. That pretty much sums it up.

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"Wow, you've just made me spray my keyboard!

Amnesty International is on the side of the terrorists?"

It would seem to the American right (the only supporters outside of Israel) that anybody not agreeing with them is helping the terrorists. It´s w bush all over again.

I have a hard time accepting the JT fair-weather "humanitarians".

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"Egypt isn't criticized because they aren't Israel. That pretty much sums it up."

Egypt boarded boats and killed people?

Oh wait, I´m not letting my emotions get the better of me.

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The moral of the story being, outside of the Muslim world, shock, indignation and outrage have a shelf life of 72 hours max, and then it's time to watch football.

Pretty much sums it up. Couldn't have worded it better, though I'd be watching "soccer"

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madverts: Egypt boarded boats and killed people?

People were talking about the situation before the flotilla. Surely you aren't saying that Egypt received even a fraction of the criticism that Israel did for maintaining a closed border. That's a dynamic that can only be created one way: bias.

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I´m going back to the Bekaa Valley this summer buddy. You´ve got my email :-) I promise you´d be aghast, speaking solely as a humanitarian. And I didn´t have the balls to see the Gaza strip with my own eyes....

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I´m going back to the Bekaa Valley this summer buddy. You´ve got my email :-) I promise you´d be aghast, speaking solely as a humanitarian. And I didn´t have the balls to see the Gaza strip with my own eyes....

Yes Hezbollah has turned the Bekaa into a real paradise on earth since they took de-facto charge of the area since 1983 during the Lebanese civil war.

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Speaking of the Bekaa Madverts, wonder why the part of the country that is controlled by the Christians and Moderate Muslims is thriving in contrast to Hezbollah-land in Lebanon.

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Superlib, Molenir, and others,

Have you looked at the Goldstone Report. Goldstone is a pro-Israeli Jew, and his report demonstrates clearly that the zionist regime is a terrorist regime that has committed several war crimes.

So if there is any group in this conflict that is a terrorist group, it is Israel.

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And here is an excellent interview with Norman Finkelstein about the raid against the flotilla. He brings up some interesting and worrying points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8

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Every bullet that was fired, and every Apache gunship helicopter F16 that flew over the humanitarian convoy, and the salary of every every murderous commandos were paid by the US, they share some of the blame.

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Israel's action on the "peace" boat causes trouble in the UK:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/

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Every bullet that was fired, and every Apache gunship helicopter F16 that flew over the humanitarian convoy, and the salary of every every murderous commandos were paid by the US,

MONEY WELL SPENT, FOR A CHANGE.

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Defiant, meaning:

resisting, challenging, rebellious, aggressive, hostile, bold, provocative, audacious, recalcitrant, antagonistic, obstinate, insolent, truculent, uncooperative, mutinous, disobedient, refractory, insubordinate, non-compliant

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Madverts said: Egypt boarded boats and killed people?

Egypt has killed people over border issues from what I understand. But it still does not change the fact that the blockade is primarily an Israeli construct. The sea and air and most of the land borders too, all controlled by Israel. Egypt has a tiny border with one crossing and shuts it down because Israel is not giving clearance for the UN guys to run the Gazan side (as in it all comes back to Israel) and people come grasping at straws trying to deflect outrage to Egypt? No, we know where our outrage belongs.

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It is not about a flotilla. It is not about getting aid to Gazans. They receive every day 80 truckloads of free aid from Israel. IT IS ABOUT INSERTING A TERRORIST NATION IN THE MIDDLE OF DEMOCRATIC ISRAEL. Check this mornings' news briefs. Frogmen intercepted smuggling weapons for Hamas into Gaza. Arabs flying a turkish flag on the future site of the Beis Hamikdash. Remember 9/11. Islam has no room for ANYONES' human rights! Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad (over 29 Islamic faction groups in all) kill their OWN children. If allowed to, they will have NO problem killing yours too! Ladies!!! Want to experience Female Genital Mutilation and wear a burka in the hot summer or be stoned in front of your friends and families? Support the human rights of these CRIMINALS! That is the fastest way to get there!!! May HaShem, the G-D of Avraham, Yitzak, and Yaakov, wake all of your leaders up now; before the Golus cycle begins again! In time to BUILD THE BEIS for the service and benefit of the entire world!

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MistWizard - Egypt has killed people over border issues from what I understand. But it still does not change the fact that the blockade is primarily an Israeli construct. The sea and air and most of the land borders too, all controlled by Israel. Egypt has a tiny border with one crossing and shuts it down because Israel is not giving clearance for the UN guys to run the Gazan side (as in it all comes back to Israel) and people come grasping at straws trying to deflect outrage to Egypt? No, we know where our outrage belongs.

Yes, "we" do. It's pointed at the Palestinians and their elected government of Hamas, who continually attempt to destroy Israel. Egypt's blockade has been an attempt to keep a lid on the Palestinian terrorist violence by reducing their access to explosives, DIY V1 rocket parts and firearms.

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Plus the fact that they'd rather not see Iran's proxy get any kind of influence in their country.

MistWizard: Egypt has a tiny border with one crossing and shuts it down because Israel is not giving clearance for the UN guys to run the Gazan side (as in it all comes back to Israel)

Yesterday you said the Egyptians enforce the blockade because if they don't, Israel will invade them. Why is your answer changing?

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sabi: Every bullet that was fired, and every Apache gunship helicopter F16 that flew over the humanitarian convoy, and the salary of every every murderous commandos were paid by the US

Good. Next we need to cut the 2.5 billion dollars a year in foreign aid we give to the Muslim Arab nations Egypt and Jordan.

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sailwind,

"Yes Hezbollah has turned the Bekaa into a real paradise on earth since they took de-facto charge of the area since 1983 during the Lebanese civil war."

Bekaa is a wine region. You all know where I live. My two feet on the ground laughs at you all spewing your ill-informed American views from Japan. At least Superlib has the basic honest decency to ignore my offer of a trip to the Lebanon to see first-hand the reality as we´ve seen above.

The Lebanon is a melting pot that Isrqel sh¿t on in 2006. I for one won´t let them forget.

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MistWizard at 10:10 PM JST - 7th June

I would like you to think about something and give me your opinion. Hamas fires many, many rockets into Israel and they do occasionally kill people. You reason that they really are not that important. Well, be that as it may, what about the cost of the materials used in the construction of these rockets. Where does that money come from? I am of course assuming that the materials are being smuggled through the tunnels along with whatever else Hamas allows into Gaza. The point I am getting at is that you reason that these rockets are near enough meaningless and nowhere near deadly enough to justify Israel attacking Gaza. If that is so are these rockets not a dreadful waste of the little money that the poor Gaza have? Could this money not be better spent bringing in something that benefited the people of Gaza as a whole rather than these meaningless rockets that do so little harm to Israel yet bring about retaliation?

You will probably tell me that freedom fighters have a right to fight or something of the kind and then try to redirect me back to the “peace” activists only wanting to bring aid to the poor people of Gaza and I don’t for one moment doubt that most of the “peace” activists really do believe that is what it is all about. But if the tunnels that could be used to bring in aid are being used to bring in weapons and explosives doesn’t it follow that any shipping that manages to reach Gaza will be used to the same end, only on a larger scale?

We might both reason that the weapons and explosives are not in fact paid for but are being sent by countries that want to “help” Hamas (not the Palestinians I think). Now since the rockets are obviously having only a negative effect in that they ultimately bring Israel down on Gaza and they are not doing much in the way of damage to Israel would it not make sense for Hamas, the elected rulers of Gaza to ask their kind benefactors to send something that would be of use to the Palestinian people rather than taking what the are given and using it simply because they have it. Given as you say they are little more than toys at best?

One final point, do you believe that life in the Middle East will be improved if Iranian navy or even the Turkish navy does escort the next team of “peace” activists into Gaza? Is this something you want to see happen, I know Sabi wouldn’t mind this, but what about you? And please keep in mind that once that blockade is down Hamas will access to real rockets from their friends and when Israeli cities start being hit by these they really will then have even more reason to come down heard on the Gaza. In a sense that blockade is actually protecting the Palestinians from the insanity of Hamas, strange reasoning I admit, but a truth none the less.

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Madverts at 06:14 AM JST - 8th June

“The Lebanon is a melting pot that Isrqel sh¿t on in 2006. I for one won´t let them forget.”

I am old enough to remember how beautiful the Lebanon was before the Islamic militants ripped it apart turning it from being one of the best places in the region to a place to be avoided. Perhaps being so knowledgeable on the Lebanon you can also fill in the details for the ill-informed Americans in Japan (and me) on how you feel Syria has played its part in the development of the Lebanon as it is today?

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Madverts: Bekaa is a wine region. You all know where I live. My two feet on the ground laughs at you all spewing your ill-informed American views from Japan. At least Superlib has the basic honest decency to ignore my offer of a trip to the Lebanon to see first-hand the reality as we´ve seen above.

Actually, I didn't quite understand your message. Send me an email instead.

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grafton: I am old enough to remember how beautiful the Lebanon was before the Islamic militants ripped it apart

Like they do everywhere they live. From someone who knows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fa9yKQeTY

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The blockade is not about blocking weapons. There are many things (certain foods, spices, cement, fridges...) that are not permitted to enter Gaza. Gazans are in great need of medicines and medical facilities (confirmed by the UN, Amnesty International, and others). Gazans are not allowed to exit Gaza freely to get medical attention or to attend schools abroad, they must get special permission from the zionist occupiers and this permission is not always granted. The blockade is a crime against humanity, those who defend it should be ashamed.

Everything that was aboard those ships was fully declared, and at least some of the ships have offered to let the IDF inspect the cargo at sea; the zionists refused.

Israel will not get any legitimacy from the international community, they never should have.

BTW, why did the zionists confiscate the videos from the flotilla? Were they considered weapons? They did not want their crime to be shown to the world.

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sabi: why did the zionists confiscate the videos from the flotilla?

So the videos of the Jihadist thugs attacking Israeli soldiers aboard the fauxtilla wouldn't be kept from the public. The Jihadists and their enables would never have allowed those videos to be shown.

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The blockade is not about blocking weapons.

And yet, despite your claims to the contrary, thats precisely whats being blocked. Most food and medicines get through without any trouble. Multi use items have some trouble as well, but occasionally get through. Some things that weren't getting through, now are, and other things that were, now aren't. But the one thing that never ever, ever gets through is weapons. Isn't that amazing, considering your statement?

Everything that was aboard those ships was fully declared, and at least some of the ships have offered to let the IDF inspect the cargo at sea; the zionists refused.

And yet not all of them were willing, and none of them were willing to divert to an alternate port for a full inspection. Come on sabi, they admitted their purpose even if you won't. A spade is a spade, despite your desire and wish that it be otherwise. Only useful idiots or hardcore anti-semites oppose the blockade. The only question is, what camp you fall into.

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And yet, despite your claims to the contrary, thats precisely whats being blocked. Most food and medicines get through without any trouble.

Nice for you to admit that not all foods and medicines enter freely. In fact, they do not get anywhere close to what they need. Anyway, your views go against the entire world except for the Israelis, US government puppets, and a handful of whores. The UN, Amnesty International, and MANY others all agree that the situation in Gaza is a humanitarian crisis and that the blockade is illegal, many call it a war crime and a crime against humanity.

And I see nobody has been able to give us a valid reason as to why the Israelis would prevent the EXPORT of goods from Gaza (flowers, fruits, vegetables).

Its becoming quite well accepted that when you need to resort to the antisemitism card, you've pretty much lost. And calling most of humanity "useful idiots or hardcore anti-semites" for opposing the blockade does not help your case.

BTW, I suspect they confiscated the videos because they did not want the world to see Israeli commandos shooting unarmed civilians in the head. The American victim was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest (with bullets, not paint balls).

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I've gotten accustomed to disbelieving organizations like Hamas and governments like North Korea, but it's getting pretty damn hard to take what Israel says seriously. The truth is out there, but we won't be able to find it by believing either side. It makes me neither an "anti-semite", "zionist", "whore" or any other name-calling personal attacks that both parties spew. Have some respect or you won't get any in return.

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grafton said: Could this money not be better spent bringing in something that benefited the people of Gaza as a whole rather than these meaningless rockets that do so little harm to Israel yet bring about retaliation?

Do you know the adage "Its better to teach a man how to fish than to just give him a fish?" If what money they have is used to just feed Gazans for today, what about tomorrow? The rockets have many purposes beyond simple retaliation. They want to get attention, and without the rockets they would just be forgotten. The reasons for attention are more than that though. I would not be surprised if the attention is getting them more aid in the end. Think about it: Israel gets kudos for their cleverness and ingenuity. Why can't Gazans? Oh, sure, maybe you don't appreciate the cleverness of the Qassam rockets, but I believe the Islamic world does. The rockets may well be supporting Gaza in many ways. And lets not forget the end goal: to be free of Israeli oppression and to have the right of return realized, etc. Without attention, that can never happen.

No, I do not support the rockets because they cannot accurately target military targets. But I support Israeli actions like the blockade and the many attacks on Gaza even less.

But if the tunnels that could be used to bring in aid are being used to bring in weapons and explosives doesn’t it follow that any shipping that manages to reach Gaza will be used to the same end, only on a larger scale?

Would you have recommended the American Revolutionaries stop paying trying to get weapons and instead put all their money into food? You do realize the hardship the American Revolutionaries suffered to beat the British don't you? God, but I hope you don't think they were brimming with cash and food!

Now since the rockets are obviously having only a negative effect

This is not obvious at all! You are so playing the role of the incredulous British snob of the late 1770s. "Why can't these people see how we will crush them? They have nothing to gain by turning their back on the King!"

No, I do not want to see foreign navies escorting ships into Gaza. I want Israel to be reasonable about what it lets through its blockade so that other countries don't have to do that. But if Israel keeps this crap up then I support the escorts and I believe that life will either improve or full war will break out. I can't say which. But I can say that I would take the risk either way if I were Gazan. And I bet that for all your nay-saying, so would you.

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Do you know the adage "Its better to teach a man how to fish than to just give him a fish?" If what money they have is used to just feed Gazans for today, what about tomorrow? The rockets have many purposes beyond simple retaliation. They want to get attention, and without the rockets they would just be forgotten.

Garbage......Israel left Gaza and her settlements there ten years ago. They left the Palistinians over 3000 greenhouses to "teach them how to fish".....They got busy and looted them.

And forgotten my butt......They just made world news again with there "sufferring".

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sailwind said: Israel left Gaza and her settlements there ten years ago.

You seem to forget that the seas were never open. Gazan fishermen have been pushed closer and closer to shore in those years, and are now so close and restricted that fishing is pointless. Israel still monitors Gazan airspace. Combat aircraft fly over daily. Israel left Gaza? How long has this been your litany? You repeat that like you got Alzheimer's. Israel has the place surrounded in three dimensions by land, sea, and air. You have been told this A MILLION times. They left Gaza, but now they bar the door! What is the difference?

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Control_on_Air_space_and_territorial_waters.asp

And forgotten my butt......They just made world news again with there "sufferring".

I did not say they were forgotten did I? (eyeroll) I gave you a reason why they were not.

I don't know anything about the greenhouses. They mean about as much to me as British tea in Boston harbor, probably the same with the Gazans. Yeah, it would be great if everybody was calm and rational, all the time, no matter what. But one side is not being FAIR, why are you surprised that people go nuts? You never seen anyone react to an unfair situation in an irrational manner? You need to observe more of life, then come back and comment.

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sabiwabi said: The blockade is not about blocking weapons.

Its also about blocking weapons. Not only you, but I wish everyone here would get it into their heads that little is done in the world without at least two reasons. So many arguments are about whether its this or its that, but its so often both.

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Sabi said: The American victim was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest (with bullets, not paint balls).

Its true. His name was Furkan Dogan and he was a dual citizen of the U.S. and Turkey. Four times in the head. Four times. If you don't realize what it takes to put four bullets in someone's head, then God help you.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2010/0603/Israeli-raid-on-Gaza-Freedom-Flotilla-killed-US-citizen-Furkan-Dogan

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Nice for you to admit that not all foods and medicines enter freely. In fact, they do not get anywhere close to what they need. Anyway, your views go against the entire world except for the Israelis, US government puppets, and a handful of whores.

Wow, so prostitutes now are being sampled for their views on the Israel/Pal situation eh? What do the poll numbers look like? And yes, they get very close to what they need, just not what they want. They want cars, and refrigerators and lots of other items that they don't truly need. Israel restricts their use since it goes directly to Hamas. Food and Medicines get through without trouble. Surely even one as steeped in bile as you, can see that. The people of Gaza are not starving. If they were, I don't doubt for a second, that Hamas would be parading the media in front of the famine victims. They would then go home and have a feast for themselves and their friends. But thats reality, lets not let this distract us from condemning Israel, and lauding the Palestinians owners, Hamas. Let us thank them for all the wonderful things they do... What were they again?

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Umm yeah the "palestenians" receive aid from the UN and the entire world to the tune of 6 thousand dollars a month per palestenian, if they cant survive on that then thats their fault. They spend almost ALL their aid on rockets for killing Israeli civilians so I dont feel sorry for the murderers.

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hworta269 said: the tune of 6 thousand dollars a month per palestenian, if they cant survive on that then thats their fault.

Survival is not the problem. Try again.

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The accounts of the witnesses of the boat's massacre come to the light. Journalist account of Israeli soldiers started firing live bullets from helicopters long before their landing on the boat, the bullet hole on the top of the head of one of the victims. They also talk about random fire on the activists from helicopters. The obvious outrage at these savage actions made the activists take the metal bars from the boat's side handrail and use them as weapons against the soldiers who later were landed to take control of their boat. After subduing and capturing 3 of them, things turned really ugly, and more live fire and soldiers came on them, resulting in yet more injuries and deaths. Shooting was obviously not in self defense, since some activist trying to repel soldiers with water hoses were also shot at. Of course, we haven't seen the images of these brutal acts, for Israel took good care in confiscating all recordings from the many journalists on board, thus silencing truth once again, only offering us their twisted and doctored version of the events. But will they be able to keep truth from coming up for long? I doubt so.

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The accounts of the witnesses of the boat's massacre come to the light. Journalist account of Israeli soldiers started firing live bullets from helicopters long before their landing on the boat, the bullet hole on the top of the head of one of the victims. They also talk about random fire on the activists from helicopters.

Again, accounts that are totally contradicted by video evidence. Sorry, but preaching propaganda doesn't do it for me. Especially after looking at the tapes showing the 'activists' getting ready long before the Israelis boarded their ships. I have to wonder, when you take the word of these so called 'activists' who can all be caught on tape, preparing their weapons before the Israelis were even close, going over their plans for how they were going to attack the Israelis, and of course, the actual beatings, all of which took place before a single shot was fired by an Israeli... It amazes me to see anyone can be so steeped in hatred and anti-semitism, that they would take the word of a liar, over the video evidence that contradicts him. Guess we find all types even here on JT.

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Molenir at 02:43 AM JST - 10th June. Again, accounts that are totally contradicted by video evidence. Sorry, but preaching propaganda doesn't do it for me. Especially after looking at the tapes showing the 'activists' getting ready long before the Israelis boarded their ships.

How can you judge only on edited tapes? Molenir believes the whole content is exactly what happened as Israel media releases the info. You drew a conclusion from this? Really? If Israel has nothing to hide then why refused independent investigation after many people were killed by invasion of this ship? Put every evidence in the table. Why Israel rejected calls on Thursday from the United Nations and others for an international investigation of its deadly raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla. Survivors tell a different story. First word out of you is a repeatly accusing hatred and anti-semitism like a repeated same old story as a victim. Molenier, this is become a same song from you and that is your style. Facts are U.S. needs to review the military aid to Israel for future adjustment.

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Israel left Gazza, and Hamas kept on firing rockets on the Israeli cities, thats why it's under a blockade, because Israel does'nt wont weapons to be delivered to Hamas. so those who blame Israel, what would you do If Hamas would fire a rocket on your house? you will act even worse and will do a double blockade not just one!

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Molenir at 02:43 AM JST - 10th June. It amazes me to see anyone can be so steeped in hatred and anti-semitism, that they would take the word of a liar, over the video evidence that contradicts him. Guess we find all types even here on JT.

Those who support Israel as a Jewish state are the most vocal in their condemnation of anti-Semitism. But once again, those two are also contradictory concepts. How can one argue that there should be no anti-semitism and then claim that anti-Semitism is the reason why Israel should forever be a Jewish state? How can one pretend to fight anti-Semitism with the implied belief that it can be eradicated and then support a state that was created with the justification that anti-semitism can never be eradicated elsewhere. In a word- experience. Honestly- this analysis is laughable. Fighting anti-semitism bears no implied belief that it can be eradicated. Fighting anti-semitism is about mitigating the effects of it. But if you going to analyze something, do it with real logic, facts and intelligence. Not like an amateur psychologist who never read a history book.

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How can you judge only on edited tapes? Molenir believes the whole content is exactly what happened as Israel media releases the info.

Edited tapes? Its not like they can go and reshoot stuff. Israel is not a top of the line movie studio. Thats basically what it would take to fake the tapes in the way you are suggesting. And it would take months, not days. Now simple editing, where they remove sections of the tape so that they don't show something, thats doable. However just watching the tapes, its obvious they aren't doing that.

If Israel has nothing to hide then why refused independent investigation after many people were killed by invasion of this ship?

In the past 20 years, has there ever, even once been a UN report that wasn't critical of Israel? I'll answer the question for you, the answer is no. Why should Israel allow another investigation when we all know the outcome of that report. Particularly in this case, where Israel has already been condemned by the UN before an investigation has even been considered. No, theres no reason for Israel to allow another UN investigation that will of course whitewash everything done by the terrorists, and condemn Israel for legally blockading Gaza.

sfjp330 - It is very difficult for me to read your second post, and not simply lash out, referring to you as a nazi, or some other anti-semitic derogatory slur. That would not be right, fair or appropriate in this forum. Despite this, your post above really pushes my buttons in that manner. I find anti-semitism to be about the same as racism. They are both despicable, and should be rooted out wherever they are found. I would not debate the issue of racism with a white supremacist, and so likewise, I will not debate the issue of anti-semitism with you.

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Molenir . Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for these people who got killed. They were stupid enough to try blockade running. They announced their intentions, dared Israel to take action, and then assaulted the soldiers when they boarded the ships... Yeah, no one would have seen this coming.

I guess this is your consistant attitude and cry anti-semitism everytime. The international community feels completely the opposite of you. The boat was represented by 30 countries and no weapons were found. This was illegal blockade 130km away from Gaza in the middle of the ocean and Israel attacked killed many at 4:30 in the morning with loaded weapons and you completely approve of this terrorist behavior. Who is the real problem? Why don't you ask Egypt and Turkey and see if they agree with your conclusion because nobody in the right mind will say things you say.

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Basically, Israel's main defense is that these guys are just as bad as themselves.

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Basically, Israel's main defense is that these guys are just as bad as themselves.

Er, no, they're worse. Much, much worse.

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Er, no, they're worse. Much, much worse.

This is kind of the same argument used in the GWOT. The "bad guys" are supposed to be worse. It's when the supposed good guys aren't good, but merely less bad that we have a real problem.

And I see this as being a perfect example. We have bad and worse. Well...I'm not about to support bad just because they are better than worse.

That's stupid (and America's foreign policy for the last 20 years).

Taka

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PeaceWarrior

Have to challenge again on your quotes.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21&x_article=766

Better source you can use.

Taka.

And I see this as being a perfect example. We have bad and worse. Well...I'm not about to support bad just because they are better than worse.

That's stupid (and America's foreign policy for the last 20 years).

Nice to see include Clinton in that period.

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BTW sailwing,

this is the second time in as many days that you have linked to sites that do not pass the test of impartiality, (although, I will admit that there are few impartial sites on the net). CAMERA is not really interested in accuracy for all Middle Eastern issues since it is solely and exclusively at the service of Israel and its goals. One of its stated goal is its concern on how the Jewish state is portrayed in the media.

I'd love it if you could come up with something from the NY Times or Le Monde, you know, a newspaper that might be a little impartial!

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I bet 50 years from now Israel will still exist.

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Just a few stupid quotes on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

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The only way to provide IMPARTIAL information is to have a team of IMPARTIAL UNBIASED people at each and every situation like this. Since there is no impartial unbiased group of reporters on every single ship or following Isreali blockade enforcers we're always going to be presented with what one side or the other wants us to see that benefits them the most. We all know that everyone who has an agenda always creates propaganda. Now we need a solution to stop the propaganda on both sides.

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