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Democrats seek criminal probe of Bush 'abuses'

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Will this be as much a waste of time and money as the Kenneth Starr/Bill Clinton year?

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Hehehehehe!!! I hope sarge and co. are ready for some karma. I wonder if they'll still support bush when he and his cronies are behind bars.

Doubtful it'll get that far, but it's good that they are proposing investigation of these criminals. They have gotten away with far too much, ruined the country as a result, and deserve to pay. Not guilty, his few remaining supporters say? Then why did he pardon himself and others?

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Politics as usual. When things get bad, you can rest assured there will always be mud found to sling at another party.

Bush pardoned himself... wouldn't you? That is one of the benefits after all.

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The report covers Bush administration policies that Democrats have protested for some time. Among them: interrogation of foreign detainees, warrantless wiretaps, retribution against critics, manipulation of intelligence and political dismissals of U.S. attorneys.

Although it may be true that events after 9/11 warranted certain extreme measures (as in the form of "warrantless wiretaps"), it makes no sense to abuse constitutional civil liberties such as the right to free speech and to openly criticize the government. Bush ended up being the type of President that supported the "right to bear arms" over the "right to free speech". And you know you are in trouble when you end up sacrificing one freedom for the proliferation of another.

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[Sigh.]

Cheney said legal opinions supported the officials.

Yes, and considering how controversial the Attorney General's department has been these last 8 years and how cozy the President has been with his counsel, we can speculate on the value of these opinions.

I think that the Bush administration rode roughshod over some prize petunias in the American legal landscape. However, I tend agree with bushlover's skepticism. We do not need another multi-year inquisition into an American president.

Nevertheless, the differences between this and the Starr investigation are that it would not hamstring a sitting president, that the core of the investigation would concern malfeasance while in office, and that the investigation would focus on issues that go to the heart of what America stands for. Obama is right to be cautious, but the Bush administration has been so controversial in so many aspects that an investigation should not be rejected out of hand. I hope that a strictly limited investigation (no blue dresses) proceeds in regard to some of the issues that hinge upon the Constitution.

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skipthesong: "Bush pardoned himself... wouldn't you?"

Only if I were guilty, my friend. It's like a sworn statement that you've committed crimes and NEED the pardon. The man knew he and his cronies abused their power. It's amazing they can hide behind these pardons, and I sincerely hope Obama reverses the pardons somehow and they are prosecuted to the full extent of the law -- especially before dicky boy runs off to Dubai.

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Sez, I agree that another Starr-like investigation will carry with it some nasty backlash in the way of further partisan fighting and political polarization. On the other hand...I think it needs to be asked, should justice only be exercised when it benefits the majority? As ugly as this investigation (if it happens) will become, and I believe it would get Fugly, I think justice must be served in order to show the world that we are truly a country of laws and not ideology.

Either way, I would say it's a pretty good bet that neither bush nor cheney will be traveling abroad without knowing for sure they will not be snatched up and sent off to the Hague. That should tell us all something.

Taka

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Taka, I entirely agree with your first paragraph. As for the second, I can't imagine which government that we count among our allies would dare to lay a hand on either of Bush or Cheney. But that in itself says something which is not entirely good.

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Smith.

Breath deep. Exhale. Relax.

Considering the war became unpopular, the past president was also brought to court, the way politicians use the courts as a way to make a point, and other simple reasons we can see why Bush pardoned himself.

Did he break laws? Yes just like every president we have had, every congress person we have had, and every other political leader we have had. Is he goingt o be charged with an actual crime? No it wouldnt look good for the US and they wont do it.

Im still waiting for the day some on here will find a new person to slam so I dont have to read the same lame arguements from both sides all the time. Maybe in 6 months we will have the new target of the haters here on JT. 7 more days for Bush to be the fuel for the haters.

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Nippon5: "Considering the war became unpopular, the past president was also brought to court, the way politicians use the courts as a way to make a point, and other simple reasons we can see why Bush pardoned himself."

I'm sorry to continuously poke fun at your English, but in this instance I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Grammatically it's nonsensical. If English is not your native language then I apologize for always criticizing, and am impressed you come on here and post in a second language.

I agree, he probably won't be charged with an actually crime. Even though he and tricky dick should be thrown in the klink, it would be too serious a blow to public morale even for those who hate the man.

"Maybe in 6 months we will have the new target of the haters here on JT. 7 more days for Bush to be the fuel for the haters."

Ah, not to worry. The bush 'haters', all 6 billion of us, will still have plenty of years left to bash li'l junior. The bashing won't end when his job does.

As for the 'breathe, relax' jive, I'm as relaxed as can be, my friend. Only a few days left until a REAL leader takes office, and that is quite comforting, as it will have a good ripple affect around the world.

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Never going to happen. It would set a precedent no administration would want to endure.

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in a just world bush and cheney should do time for their war crimes. Along with Rumsfeld and many others.

If their crimes are swept under the rug then the next lunatic bush like zero who gets elected president, like Palin, may again start a war based on lies and over time bankrupt the country.

80% of the US voters are happy bush is leaving. Some percentage of that number would be happier if he went to jail for his crimes.

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On the flipside Maybe just maybe Obamas laying in wait not to give away his hand.

If bush and his clansmen were brought up on charges, convicted, imprisoned or even better hanged, it might be the best thing that happened to the US. Especialy if Obama focused on it. I meen dubya is despiesed the world round other than in sarges mind.

Or possably the US hands them over to the Hauge for tribunals.

Wow it then might be a good feeling to be an american again just knowing that not everyone is above the law.

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It's about time. Nancy Pelosi has held off investigations and impeachment hearings for the past 2 years on george bush abuses and war crimes.

george bush and dick cheney have been the sleeziest president and vice president team this country has ever seen. < :-)

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If bush and his clansmen were brought up on charges, convicted, imprisoned or even better hanged, it might be the best thing that happened to the US. Especialy if Obama focused on it. I meen dubya is despiesed the world round other than in sarges mind.

Seriously, are you all idiots? No, really, I want to know.

There are reasons that outgoing administrations are never investigated like is being suggested. They have been valid before, and they are valid today. To put it simply, investigating previous administrations serves as a distraction to current administrations. It prevents the country from moving on to current events and business. And, since, as is more then obvious in this case, the charges are politically motivated, doing this would give ammunition against future presidents as well, when power changes hands.

In other words, 4 years from now (assuming republicans win) when Obama is out, and is accused of being the most incompetent and corrupt president ever. (Don't kid yourself, it will happen.) Republicans would then do the same investigation he allowed on them. Democrats do not want this to happen. If Obama has any smarts at all, if any Democratic idiot in congress decides to push forward on this, Obama would pardon them immediately, and not allow it to move along.

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Even if no prosecutions or jail time comes out of it, it will be immensely satisfying to see some certain people sweating on the stand.

I never ever wanted to hear the details of Monica Lewinsky though. That was not the country's business. I wonder how many who were all hot for Clinton's head on a pike then are now whining "but he is the president!" or some other crap.

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Here is the one of the most idiotic statements I have heard in my life.

"Only a few days left until a REAL leader takes office, and that is quite comforting, as it will have a good ripple affect around the world."

January 20th Obama will become the President of the US. That is a truth.

Real Leader takes office. How do you know he is anything close to a REAL leader? Is it because he is half Black? Is it because he is a Democrate? Could it be because your want him to be?

How is it comforting to have Obama become President of the US to a Canadian who lives in Japan? Will his presence create world peace? Will the economy fly out of economical woes because he became President?

What "good ripple affect" is going to happen around the world? Are all the countries at war with each other going to stop all of a sudden?Will babies all be born healthy?Will people who insult others become mature? Will people grasp hands and sing we are the world?

Truth is very easy to find here. Since November 4th the stock market has slipped farther and farther down. The world has had more conflict today then it did November 3rd. Companies around the world are failing left and right at a rate unseen before November 4th. The Futre will show us if Obama actually has an affact on people, Business, or anything at all.

Many on this site said as soon as Obama won the election the economy would spike up, the stockmarket would rally up and stay up, and the world would welcome the peace Obama brings.

Other then the part of Obama taking over the presidency on the 20th none of Smith's statement is factual or most likely going to happen. Its like most of the posts by that type of person, Fantasy.

Be realistic and take him for what he is. Dont put him up so high that when he falls he dies. He has a chance to make minute changes and maybe just maybe in 4 years we the people of America will reelect him. He may also do what he has already started to do, renig on all his promises. He may put us so far in debt we cant see light any more. Then in 4 years we elect someone else, and maybe they can give it a shot. But one thing you can guarentee is that he isnt going to be the GOD smith wants him to be.

If Obama was to say prosecute Bush he would be signing his own warrent for his arrest in 4 years. If Bush was such a criminal then what about all the other leaders in the world_?

Once a hater always a hater. and to say 6 billion of the 6,700,000,000 people on this Earth hate Bush is just being a hater and an ignorant person. Many hate him, but most dont care one way or another about him.

Personaly Im glad Bush is out of office in 6 days, but I think we went from the frying pan into the fire.

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After a presidency as contraversial as W's, one would have thought an investigation would be obvious...

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Nippon5: "How is it comforting to have Obama become President of the US to a Canadian who lives in Japan?"

As I said, if you bother to read messages at all, his coming into office will have a positive ripple effect around the globe. In fact, it already has in many cases; people world-wide have welcomed Obama and are eager to work with him. This excludes Japan and a few other countries, of course, because they are use to dealing with the corrupt GWB, who will exchange certain favours for pushing NK on the abduction issue, whereas Obama is more likely to give it a pass... but that's another story.

"Will it create world peace?"

Very doubtful, but it certainly won't create as many wars, or support them, as bush and co. have! That, in turn with the ripple effect I mentioned, will affect ALL people EVERYWHERE. Of course, most of the benefits you will see at home in the US, and boy is it going to be fun to watch the few remaining bushites struggle to be angry when their better off with Obama! But after the US improves its image, and becomes a better country overall, that will have a positive effect on others as well.

If you can't say that it's possible because he's not in office yet, let's take a look at what junior has done to the world.

9/11 occurs on his watch, after which he launches the first of at least two wars the US starts/takes part in/supports. He likewise makes a list of 'terrorist' nations and in particular three which he labels the axis of evil. No effect on a Canadian in Japan? Well, I now have to give my fingerprints and have photos taken at airports, my packages are thoroughly rooted through, and the country I live in faces a much more hostile NKorea than before bush took office, when Koizumi FINALLY got things to thaw a little with said country.

The Iraq war. Regardless of whether I'm in Japan or Timbuktoo, sadly many people mistake me for an American, which makes me an enemy in many people's eyes. That, too, is thanks to bush.

Anyway, I could go on, but as you have a tendency to not read things clearly and see only what you choose, I don't really feel the need to spell things out for you in further detail.

"Once a hater always a hater. and to say 6 billion of the 6,700,000,000 people on this Earth hate Bush is just being a hater and an ignorant person. Many hate him, but most dont care one way or another about him."

Is 'hater' the new catch-phrase of the day for you guys? You get sick of 'pacifist' so soon? Ah, that's right... since so many of you are arguing that Hamas should stop firing rockets etc., you've stopped using 'passive' as derogatory. 'Socialist'? Oh, wait, that was all just a load of crap and kind of always backfired since bush made the US more socialist than it's ever been -- at least in terms of stripping all your rights away, etc.

Oh, and sorry... 6 billion might not HATE bush, per say, but at least 6 billion don't like him. There, hope that suits you better.

"What "good ripple affect" is going to happen around the world? Are all the countries at war with each other going to stop all of a sudden?Will babies all be born healthy?Will people who insult others become mature? Will people grasp hands and sing we are the world?"

Not sure if people will sing around the world, but I know a whole lot of people that will be singing thanks that the moron bush is done.

"Personaly Im glad Bush is out of office in 6 days, but I think we went from the frying pan into the fire."

Your grammar is actually correct in this comment. We 'WENT' from the frying pan with Clinton and into the fire with bush. Since Obama has not taken office yet, and we must use the future tense, it's safe to say we'll be moving from the fire into perhaps some cooler place. Unfortunately, bush set the whole damn house on fire with the economy, wars, and what not, so you might not be able to escape the burning completely.

Anyway, keep it up, my friend! You're posts are pretty angry rants, but getting a little better.

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Nippon5: "He may put us so far in debt we cant see light any more."

bush already did that; so, mission accomplished!

You're right though, Obama may have to go back on some promises, since bush so utterly messed things up and needs to be investigated for abuses.

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As I said, if you bother to read messages at all, his coming into office will have a positive ripple effect around the globe. In fact, it already has in many cases; people world-wide have welcomed Obama and are eager to work with him.

What affect is going to happen that wouldnt have already happened knowing he won the election. Since Obama won the election we have had more civil unrest in the world, more conflicts started in the world, and more unstable relations in the world. So what affect is going to happen? people may of been happy when he promised the moon to mary, but over the months since his win he has double talked his way out of many of the promises he made. I have heard many people who voted for him sigh and say "hes no different then the rest" .

Listing Bush's have done list is just a way to take the focus off my questions. Bush made a ton of mistakes in my opinion, its just par for course when it comes to political leaders.

My Grammar was right for Bush who lost the election on November 4th (see past tense) and Obama won the election (see "past tense") on that day we went from the frying pan into the fire. But thank you again for the English lesson, do you want me to pay for your coffee too?

And considering I am American and I live in Japan (and travel all over Asia) you would think I would hear from the masses of people you always say hate Americans, but I've only meet a few. Ive also meet just as many who hate British, Canadian, and other western countries.

Obama has already gone back on many promises and he hasnt even taken the oath yet. Its sad and hard to say for those who praised him as a saviour of the world, but it is true he has backpeddled on many of his campaign promises.

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Nippon5: "Since Obama won the election we have had more civil unrest in the world, more conflicts started in the world, and more unstable relations in the world."

Excuse me?? I just want to get this straight so I don't have to ask you again later... it's really quite hard to fathom... but are you blaming the current woes of the world on the PRESIDENT-ELECT of the US? Are you saying the decision to support Israel unconditionally through bush was actually Obama's decision? Is bush just a puppet and Obama the puppet master?

I've heard some really kooky theories in my life about who's to blame for what, yours takes the cake, my friend.

"My Grammar was right for Bush who lost the election on November 4th (see past tense) and Obama won the election (see "past tense") on that day we went from the frying pan into the fire."

Not at all. Since bush is still in office you are incorrect to use the past tense (although we can understand your feelings in wanting bush out as quickly as possible!).

"Obama has already gone back on many promises and he hasnt even taken the oath yet. Its sad and hard to say for those who praised him as a saviour of the world, but it is true he has backpeddled on many of his campaign promises."

Okay, so NOW you want to talk. Fine. Well, as I said, I agree with you that he has gone back on quite a few things he promised to do -- or at least, he has indicated that he might have to. And as I said before, it's quite hard in his situation to be able to carry out all his promises with the utter disgrace and disaster bush is leaving the country in. Should he have therefore promised such things? Well, that's a tough one. But I honestly believe he WANTS to accomplish all the things he accomplished, and will do for some. At any rate, they're a hell of a lot more realistic promises than McCain made in his performances. It'll be disappointing when he goes back on his word in some cases, but for those who simply see it as his being a liar or inept, you're not taking into consideration what he was left with -- and especially YOU, Nippon5, since you're blaming the president elect for situations that have resulted from the executive decisions of the current president (not past tense).

"And considering I am American and I live in Japan (and travel all over Asia) you would think I would hear from the masses of people you always say hate Americans, but I've only meet a few. Ive also meet just as many who hate British, Canadian, and other western countries."

Really... well, I'm actually secure enough that I don't have to go around asking people what they think of my country. I just get it from world media, protests, bans, acts of violence, etc. some of the things people like and dislike.

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I havent blamed Obama for anything Bush did. I was pointing out the fact that since he won the elections things have become worse. During the campaign you and your crew of merry haters said over and over that when he wins the election the whole world would change for the better. That hasnt happened, and most likely wont happen. I dont dislike Obama at all, but I also dont think he is the answer to the issues. I also dont kid myself into thinking one man is going to Change anything. But you and your crew think he will save the world.

Moderator: Enough of this nonsense. You will focus your comments on the story not at each other.

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Well, I'm just glad they used the plural of abuse here, since that is DEFINITELY the case with bush who is a complete failure at everything except stealing elections. bush's abuses SHOULD be investigated and he needs to brought to the Hague.THAT would be mission accomplished!Ha ha ha. Anyway my friends, even if Obama doesn't keep the campaign promises he made to all 6 billion people on the planet, who also hate bush (okay, maybe hate is too strong a word, maybe detest, which is a difficult word unless your a college graduate like me, would be better) is a total failure, he and Joe Biden will be heaps better than bush and dicky dash to Dubai cheney.

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According the Constitution of US, President has an immunity for harsh judgement from the high court. However it does not mean all of his disciples will be kindly treated like him. Some can be ended up in jail for abuse of power & corruption.

Congress has passed the trillions of dollars for Bush demands. Some were missing from book. There are some public outcrys about the corruptions. Human rights abuse for suspected foreigners existed. Military contracts & natural disaster reconstrution contracts were awarded for neo cons cronies.

In Taiwan, former President was hand cuffed for charging his corruption. It is a true nature of democracy & equal justice. Why not US amend the constitution to deter the future abuse of power?

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Zenpun: "According the Constitution of US, President has an immunity for harsh judgement from the high court. However it does not mean all of his disciples will be kindly treated like him. Some can be ended up in jail for abuse of power & corruption."

Good. Let's hope bush is one of them. As I said before, which some people seem to have missed, I DOUBT it will, but it's fun to imagine, and would indeed be nice to see some people sweat.

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Molenir,

The reasons that you cite seem to me to be valid ones. However, if administrations will never be investigated for those reasons, then we really should abandon any pretense of accountability.

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Sez,

If there is one thing this administration has done, it's abandon any pretense of accountability.

As for the "they all do it" argument, I could not counter that argument any better than the good people at despair.com:

http://www.despair.com/tradition.html

Taka

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Sezw - Not quite true. If obvious corruption has taken place, then an administration can be investigated. That investigation must take place while they are in power though. IE Nixon etc. Once they are no longer in power, criminal proceedings can occur, but you are walking a fine line there.

Also keep in mind, that accountability is to the voters. If they will no longer be elected, then they have been held accountable. Even if they haven't been held criminally liable. Also, going back to Nixon again. Quite a few of the people who worked for him, ended up spending time in prison for their crimes. Real crimes, not these trumped up charges people are always accusing Bush of doing. So you see, accountability is possible, if not for Bush himself at least for people who actually do the deed.

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Abuses? The whole Bush regime is guilty of abuse.

Send the bloody lot to Gitmo and see how they like it. I reckon he is the worst President ever for America. Gawd, the geezer was well out of order starting wars , allowing torture an dof course he is a bloody thicko.

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Not quite true. If obvious corruption has taken place, then an administration can be investigated. That investigation must take place while they are in power though. IE Nixon etc

The problem with that is that the president and vice-president refused to honor subpoenas when there was resonable belief that there was less than legal activities occurring.

SO...if they cannot be prosecuted for misdeeds after they are out and they refuse to cooperate while in office, they become, in effect, above the law.

That simply cannot occur in America.

Taka

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I'm not sure that investigating Bush is going to be worth the effort. Cleaning up after him is going to take enough effort. With the economy in the shape it's in the distraction will only bring more problems.

Of course something more odeous may yet be found once Obama starts to clean shop, so I wouldn't rule anything out yet.

Have to agree with Reg, Bush has been a disaster. I expect history will put him at the bottom of the list. It will be good to see the back of him and good riddance. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

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The problem with that is that the president and vice-president refused to honor subpoenas when there was resonable belief that there was less than legal activities occurring.

Again, here you are walking a fine line there in separation between powers. The President and the VP refused to honor some subpoenas, and refused to allow some of their aids to do so when, according to them, doing so would impinge on the Presidency. Hmm, not saying that right. The point being though that, if you are trying to investigate the Presidency, you have to have real and clear issues to raise, you can't just go on a fishing expedition hoping to find some dirt, which is what the Democrats tried.

Taka313 - Saying over and over again, that this is a corrupt and dirty administration without actually having anything to point to, is just stupid. All its saying is that you hate Bush. Not for any specific reasons, but because you hate Bush.

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Ah, sorry Taka, the last part of my previous post was directed at ca1c0cat, rather then at you. I apologize for my mistake.

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likeitis

I wonder how many who were all hot for Clinton's head on a pike then are now whining "but he is the president!"

All of them. All these republicans cried that his lieing to the country about Monica was just horrible. But they are so protective of a real bonafide liar whose lies cost this nation 1000s of American lives, 100,000s dead Iraqi, 2.5Million refuges, $trillions and untold other negative results.

Nippon5

Will his presence create world peace?

No, but they know that Barack is trying to clean up george bush's crap and that alone shows more smarts then bush's. Remember seeing the last news about the G-8 and they were taking pictures, most of the leaders shunned george bush.

I for one would like to see one of our republican posters to come up with a list of george bush's accomplishments. We know all his lies and deceivements and the republicans whine about these accusations. Show us how much he's done to off set these atrocities. < :-)

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Molenir,

Thank you but no offense was taken. I DO hate bush.

The thing is, there HAVE been real and clear issues. The 5 million lost emails sent from RNC accounts that weren't supposed to be used for govt. business for one.

Promising telecomms immunity to do something illegal for another.

The outing of a CIA agent.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. There really has been things that should be investigated. And when you add the legitimate to the circumstantial, such as cheney ordering portable industrial shredders sent to his offices at the same time as the email thing was going on or the firings of attorney generals who were investigating republicans...well...again, I think you get the point.

They say that when there's smoke, there's fire. Well...we have plenty of real smoke and a few flames to boot.

Yep, I totally agree it's a slippery slope. You are absolutely correct. However, I think you will agree with me. Doing the right thing and the expedient thing are not always the same.

My first recollection of any politics was as a child. My parents (life long republicans) switched parties, campaigned and voted for Jimmy Carter. There reason: Ford put expediency ahead of justices. I come from a law enforcement family (father and 2 uncles). None of the elders in my clan took Nixon's pardon well because they perceived it as politics trumping justice.

I guess that has shaped a great deal of my disdain for bush and my belief that he should be investigated thoroughly.

Taka

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Bring out the pitch forks and get the swords out. Bush will soon be gone and sanity will return slowly to our nation.

My wish list of Bush things that need to go

I can not wait to see the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiative to be gone!

No bid contracts

Bush Executive Orders

Bush

Cheney's no bid contract buddies forces to repay the government

Iraq war

Companies that out sourcing of US jobs to cheap third world nations

Investigate Gonzales

Arrest Gonzales

Fire some of the Bush neo Con hirings

Investigate Paul Wolfowitz

Arrest Paul Wolfowitz

I say send the DoJ hunting for anyone who did anything wrong under the Bush administration! Let slip the dogs of war!
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Molenir,

I don't think there is any fine line here at all. What there is are questions. The first question is: Is there reason to suspect that the outgoing administration broke the law? The second is: If there is no reason to believe it broke the law, is there any reason to believe that it exceeded its authority in a way that was deleterious to America? The third, to be answered if either of these are yes, is: Is there any advantage in further investigation with an end to passing legislation which will more clearly set guidelines for presidential conduct?

There is no question that Congress has the power to investigate. Nor is there any question that Congress has the duty to investigate if there is probable cause that wrongdoing has occurred and if there is either hope of redress or opportunity to gain a non-partisan benefit for the American people. There is no fine line.

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"I reckon he is the worst President ever"

You reckon wrong.

"despair.com"

Oh, for cryin' out loud...

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Taka313,

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting site. However, I didn't know where to access anything relevant to this discussion. Love the mugs, though.

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Sez,

I use the demotivators to keep the mood light with my staff during meetings.

Now...the one I showed I think is very relevant to the subject. A few people have posted something to the effect of: "all presidents break the law, so why should we start now?"

My answer is a demotivator:

Tradition: Just because we've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.

I'm happy you enjoyed the site however.

Taka

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Sez,

I meant to say:

A few people have posted something to the effect of: "all presidents break the law, so why should we start prosecuting them now?"

Taka

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Taka313,

I'll take your word for it, but when I click on that link I see an advertisement for products featuring the running of the bulls in Pamplona and advising that just because you've always done something a certain way doesn't mean it's not stupid.

If the relevance is to Molenir's argument that all administrations do such and so and all incoming administrations do such and so, I guess I kind of get it. I was expecting something more directly related to Bush or investigations or what have you.

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Sez,

If the relevance is to Molenir's argument that all administrations do such and so and all incoming administrations do such and so, I guess I kind of get it.

It was.

Taka

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