Democrats start countdown toward health care vote

Here's hoping it fails. Partly because I don't like the bill itself and mostly because I want to watch Pelosi go nuts on the CSPAN live feed.

In the monstrous 2,300 page bill are the following attacks upon personal liberty, unprecedented in American history:

"Page 50/section 152: The bill will provide insurance to all non-U.S. residents, even if they are here illegally. Page 58 and 59: The government will have real-time access to an individual’s bank account and will have the authority to make electronic fund transfers from those accounts. Page 65/section 164: The plan will be subsidized (by the government) for all union members, union retirees and for community organizations (such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now – ACORN).**"

This bill is a bad piece of legislation that 75 percent of Americans don't want. It should be killed and new bills written that will truly help the American people with good healthcare reform.

Whatever the problems there are with the USA's idiotic health care system, they are a drop in the bucket (about .0001% I would say) compared to the USA's economic problems and idiotic financial system, and a diversion from them. And while health care is an issue for Americans only (and in the end who cares what they do), the financial issues affect everybody on the planet. The fact that the health care bill gets all the attention while financial reform, like the sham reform bill put out by Chris Dodd, gets almost none, makes you wonder if that diversion is due to incompetence or is actually intentional. In other words a diversionary tactic so Wall Street can keep humming along and siphoning the wealth without being bothered by the government or the press (both of which they own anyways) too much.

I can't wait for November, and the return of Sanity. When Obama proposals are Dead on Arrival. When he has to go to Republican leaders in order to get anything he wants passed. And even more so, when 2 years from now we get a real President again. Hopefully they won't need to try to repeal this monstrosity.

aday: if the bill is not going to touch doctors have to pay for insurance, protections from friolous law suits, and than there are insurance costs on medical products (me), and you know very well the deal they broke with big pharma. If you want the health care simply because its coming from the dems, don't BS us into believing this is going to bring our premiums down.

If you don't want to believe Odogma, look back to your military years. Recall what spouse had to buy into and how it was paid. And please remember that many of us are going to have to pay for it even while living here on top of the fact that we pay now and don't get anything for it for another 3+ years.

I could care less who wins in November. If there are no independents it will equal no change just like we have now - no change just more blood squeezed from those of us who've been paying.

This is going to hurt a lot of us who've been paying. I really don't believe you read through that bill as much as you claimed. You are waaaaay to happy about it. it is not the take over you imagine. Heck, I'd even go with Dennis Kucinich's desired health care before I go with this one.

Countdown to failure!

skipthesong, my health insurance only went up 12.5%. I didn't get a cost of living increase. Why?

Then there are the increases of 39% to 52%. These cost have to be stopped and as long as we follow the "Free Market" they will continue these increases every year.

Before you can control frivolous lawsuits you have to start ridding the medical profession of quacks and incompetents. But I haven't heard the AMA or skipothesong say a thing about ridding the business of pill pushers and quack surgeons who do needless surgeries. But they do use your equipment on all these needless surgeries. Damn, you're profiting from this, so of course you wouldn't mention it.

I've seen the prices on the equipment you sell. Prices like I couldn't believe. $125.00 for a suture kit. Please. It's a needle and threat. But I'm not going to tell you about the medical robberies that take place.

I'm looking forward to it passing. If my congressmen don't vote for it, they won't get my vote come November. < :-)

MrUSA: Countdown to failure!" Not for the insurance, pharma, medical products companies, but to the average patient, yes.

These Democrats are socialists. If they have their way the government, not the free market - - the only system mankind has devised that rewards rational choice - - will decide what health care you receive, if and what sort of loan your child is entitled to.And that is in addition to a housing debacle they have not even begun to address. The government holds almost half the mortgages in the nation.

Stop the Democrats. STOP THE MADNESS.

It's not being rushed through. For the past 70 years we've been working at it and the republicans are fighting this change by tooth and nail.

2300 pages aren't really that much. Look at what it takes just to achieve simple tasks. Manuals with 500 to 1000 pages. This is a lot of government lingo. And touching insurance companies, doctors, medical equipment companies and hospitals. Not that many pages after all.

Get the hell out of the way republicans, we're passing this without you. < :-)

we're passing this without you

Even though 75 percent of Americans say they don't want this version of ObamaCare.

So much for the will of the people.

adaydream: Maybe you should talk to more people or people outside your current circle of friends. The 75% against the current bill is accurate across the general public in the U.S. according to a number of different polls. Most people think SOMETHING should be done to provide health care for more people and that perscriptiom meds should be included but THIS AINT IT.

techall Rx drugs are supposed to be in it. It closes the donut hole for seniors the Rx drug program.

Do you want the bill to force drug companies to sell at the prices they are selling their drugs to Canada and Mexico? I wish it did.

What do you want for Rx Drugs? < :-)

aday: "skipthesong, my health insurance only went up 12.5%. I didn't get a cost of living increase. Why?" And what makes you think your current insurance won't go up any further? Where is that in the bill saying it won't?

"Then there are the increases of 39% to 52%. These cost have to be stopped and as long as we follow the "Free Market" they will continue these increases every year." No one is arguing that point. but why make a so called health care bill and put in a bunch of pet projects are run with as a "health bill"? And again, where is the proof you have that it still won't happen, even if the gov takes it over completely???????

Before you can control frivolous lawsuits you have to start ridding the medical profession of quacks and incompetents." hmmm..... I guess your memory fails you, but how hard is it to fire a gov worker, which will eventually happen. how about this: try getting a doc from any socialized health country fired, especially in Japan.

But I haven't heard the AMA or skipothesong say a thing about ridding the business of pill pushers and quack surgeons who do needless surgeries." Oh yes you did. You forget that I have already told you I was a med in the Army. Take a look at how many unnecessary c-sections have been performed..... And, and But again, where is the statement that says its going to stop with this bill??????????

But they do use your equipment on all these needless surgeries. Damn, you're profiting from this, so of course you wouldn't mention it." So, I can't make a buck? Hey, if YOUR gov wants to pay the fifth year out inflated price, you blame them, not me.

I've seen the prices on the equipment you sell. Prices like I couldn't believe. $125.00 for a suture kit. Please. It's a needle and threat. But I'm not going to tell you about the medical robberies that take place."

I don't set the market listed rates. Don't forget, with any gov, there are stips and regs to be met and many of those are costly. For example, I can sell a device in NJ for x and triple it is Mass...... Why, because the gov forces us to put certain criteria on them and 90% of the time they are meaningless and serve no purpose and at the same time, cost us.

I'm looking forward to it passing. If my congressmen don't vote for it, they won't get my vote come November. " I could care less what my congressman votes for, if I'm am stuck with a dem or a repub, it makes no difference to me any longer.

@aday: My personal feelings on Rx drugs is that Medicare and Medicade could be fixed to include them. I also like the idea of locl cooperatives for people who can't pay for individual insurance to get the corporate rates. Per capita income in Mexico is much lower than U.S. or Canada so not a good comaparison to Canada and U.S. The drug companies have to fund their research someplace. The key to bringing down insurance costs all together is to address frivolous lawsuits and lower malpractice insurance costs and through robust competition in the private insurance industry.

skipthesong you'd rather do nothing then attempt to fix things. The republicans have been fighting any reform for 70 years. When this first started the republicans have were saying no. They made suggestions, good suggestions, but they don't want to act.

Grab a piece of fresh paper and start all over. It took 70 years to get here. The republicans want to start another 70 year era of talking health care reform and 70 years of doing nothing.

When you have doctors going from state to state pandering their bad medicine and the AMA doing nothing. Absolutely nothing and not giving a sign to get rid of them. The medical community doesn't even want you to know who are bad doctors. The AMA refuses to show a list of doctors who have been disciplined. Don't even compare this to federal workers. I documented, documented and documented. I got rid of poor performing technicians. Do your job right and it's no big deal.

Frivolous lawsuits, huh? You have doctors who cause permanent damage that will cost $100,000s or a $Million, but you want limit settlements to some permanent low ball amount, like $250K. That's squat.

http://pudsandlosers.blogspot.com/2010/02/medical-malpractice-and-republican-lies.html

You forget that I have already told you I was a med in the Army. Take a look at how many unnecessary c-sections have been performed.....

I was watching a story the other day about another hospital pushing C-sections on any woman that had had a prior C-section. It's the hospitals and doctors pushing C-sections, not patients.

No matter your beliefs, I want health care reform. < :-)

Ya know. It just occurred to me, but Obama is just pissing everyone off recently. Trying to ram this bill through, over the objection of 3/4ths of the country. Attacking Israel, trying to push Cap and Tax despite its having been shown to be a sham. Immigration reform which most Americans are opposed to. The list goes on. Already one of the most polarizing Presidents in history, if he keeps this up, he is set to overtake Carter as the worst President in History. Although managing to match Carters level of incompetence will be tough, even for Obama.

techall

My personal feelings on Rx drugs is that Medicare and Medicade could be fixed to include them.

Don't you remember that the bush Rx Program limited Medicare and Medicaid from any negotiations on drug cost. he gave the drug manufactures free rein on stealing from old people. Even made a donut hole in the program so that Rx companies could rip off extra profits.

Oh yeah, and even made it illegal to ship cheap priced drugs back into the US from other countries to protect their profits. < :-)

Molenir, I'm not pissed off at Obama. This is what I voted for. < :-)

Hear hear, adaydream. Excellent posts from you throughout this thread.

I have to laugh when the desperate, lying Repubs "claim" that "75%" of the population are against health care reform. I, along with you and the Democratic majority of America, say pass this bill. Now.

I have to laugh when the desperate, lying Repubs "claim" that "75%" of the population are against health care reform. I, along with you and the Democratic majority of America, say pass this bill. Now.

Lying republicans? You haven't looked at any polls recently then have you. No lies here. Anyone who tries to claim that most people support this monstrosity is delusional. Either that or find us a link to a poll that supports your position. Heh, oh wait, you can't do that, cause they're all against it.

adaydream your reasoning is a recipe for disaster. What you put forth is that since it took (paraphrase) "70 years of Republican inaction" to get to this point that this health care legislation should be rammed through no matter what. The fact that most Americans don't like the legislation as worded? - who cares. Democrats are for health care reform, you're a democrat, you have a democrat as president who wants it, so by God it should be so. Do you even know the intricacies of what's in this legislation, and what the implications are? Have any of you rabid Pelosi-loving, Obama worshiping, died-in-the-wool true blue Democrats really stepped outside of your altruistic world to really examine this legislation, understand it and understand the implications? (very doubtful) Or is it the standard support of the party and supposed cause no matter what the cost? (likely) Just as the wild and irresponsible stimulus spending will accomplish no real sustainable and tangible results, neither will this health care bill be the great savior of the indigent masses.

It will be quite interesting if we're all still around in ten years to see what the believers in this nonsense have to say.

the Democratic majority of America, say pass this bill. Now.

And the number of states who have voted or are discussing legislation that would mandate that it would NOT allow any mandated health insurance (as in Obamacare) is now up to how many? 34?

Conservatives like to speak on behalf of the people despite the people speaking, via the voting booth, that they are tired of conservative policy.

The American people will get what they deserve. If we do not reform healthcare now you can bet it will not be reformed in the near future, which is just what those that have spent so much money an time attacking reform want. In the end, if reform fails, those that suffer will have only one party to point to when they cannot afford to go to the doctor. In the long run this will be poison for the GOP.

Molenir at 01:38 AM JST - 17th March

I have to laugh when the desperate, lying Repubs "claim" that "75%" of the population are against health care reform. I, along with you and the Democratic majority of America, say pass this bill. Now.

Lying republicans? You haven't looked at any polls recently then have you. No lies here. Anyone who tries to claim that most people support this monstrosity is delusional. Either that or find us a link to a poll that supports your position. Heh, oh wait, you can't do that, cause they're all against it.

I could have sworn that GOPers hated the tactic of using polls to justify policy?

Conservatives like to speak on behalf of the people despite the people speaking, via the voting booth, that they are tired of conservative policy.

No, Americans tend to like to think about something and weigh the consequences rather than having bad legislation jammed down their throats by either party, despite being the elected choice. Democracy is not supposed to mean that you vote once in four years and are then subject to any idiocy put forth. We've been doing that for far too long under both parties.

find us a link to a poll that supports your position

Does a poll taken in the DNC cafeteria count?

The American people will get what they deserve.

Having elected a Democrat President, and and large majorities in both the House and Senate, what America really deserves, is to have this crappy bill forced down their throats. A bill that afterwards will almost certainly be impossible to repeal. And yet, I'm hopeful, that we'll get what we need, not what we deserve.

In the end, if reform fails, those that suffer will have only one party to point to when they cannot afford to go to the doctor. In the long run this will be poison for the GOP.

In reality, this entire subject is toxic for the Dems. Its killing them already. They lost in Massachusetts because of it, and they're losing everywhere across the country for the same reason. On top of that though, I find it amusing that you're trying to push this off onto the Republicans. Who haven't got a majority in either house. No, the Dems own this. No other way to view it. If it fails, its because of them, if it passes, its because of them. You can't blame the side without any power, for blocking something they can't block.

Obama has given up on trying to work with the just say republicans as they have no plan or agenda at all themselves, other than to accuse Obama of being born in Kenya. Fact is that the republicans are very happy to let 45,000 people die a year in the US because they do not have helath insurance. Or to let families go bankrupt when insurance companies pull their policies when a son or daughter gets sick.

Molenir is a very typical republican. He only cares about himself until he gets sick and then he will come begging for the government to help him.

Obama has given up on trying to work with the just say republicans as they have no plan or agenda at all themselves, other than to accuse Obama of being born in Kenya.

Well, apart from Tort reform, allowing competition accross state lines, and preventing insurance companies from dropping policies for pre-existing conditions, and other reasons. Sure, no other ideas or plans but these. Ones that would actually work.

Fact is that the republicans are very happy to let 45,000 people die a year in the US because they do not have helath insurance.

Fact is we can't afford it. Dems on the other hand are happy to let 100,000 people die because the quality of their health care declined so precipitously.

Or to let families go bankrupt when insurance companies pull their policies when a son or daughter gets sick.

Fixing this issue was one of the things Republicans agree with.

Molenir is a very typical republican. He only cares about himself until he gets sick and then he will come begging for the government to help him.

I've never begged the government for anything, and I'm not about to start now. I don't believe the government should have any roll in health care at all. Not mine, or anyone else. They shouldn't have the right to decide whether or not I get treatment, or for that matter when I should die. Its not their business, and sick or not, I'll thank them to stay out.

tigermoth at 02:49 AM JST - 17th March

Conservatives like to speak on behalf of the people despite the people speaking, via the voting booth, that they are tired of conservative policy.

No, Americans tend to like to think about something and weigh the consequences rather than having bad legislation jammed down their throats by either party, despite being the elected choice. Democracy is not supposed to mean that you vote once in four years and are then subject to any idiocy put forth. We've been doing that for far too long under both parties.

Funny because I was always taught that in a representative democracy the people speak on Election Day and after that it is up to their representative to vote on each issue as he/she feels fit. Perhaps you are thinking that the USA is a true democracy, where every issue is voted on by all citizens? The representatives can poll their constituents to gage how the folks back home feel on an issue but that is not a binding measure that sets their vote. I could easily show you poll numbers from a few months ago that show overwhelming support for Healthcare reform. Of course that was before the conservative noise machine was turned on, claims of death panels were made and bunch of graying boomers demanded loudly for the government to keep its hands out of their Medicare.

So Molenir you do not want the government to have any say in your healthcare, that is to decide what treatments you may or may not need, but seem fine with the idea of a for profit company to make those decisions. Anyone who has had serious medical problems and has a private run healthcare plan knows that in the end, that healthcare company is out to protect its bottom line, even if it means your treatment is denied and you are forced to fly to Honduras to, if you can afford to, to get help.

Molenir,

Dems on the other hand are happy to let 100,000 people die because the quality of their health care declined so precipitously.

Please explain how the democrats have caused the decline of health care. Look at who runs health care; doctors, insurance companies, hospitals and drug companies. Where does it come into play that the democrats have caused the decline in their health care? Where does the patient have control of anything? < :-)

Congressional Democrats can threaten to scuttle health care if their parochial concerns aren't met. Congressional Republicans can refuse any accommodation with the president and there is no political price to be paid. If they can't see the light, maybe they'll feel the heat. But there seems to be no heat that can move a wary member of Congress to Mr. Obama's side in his key battles.

So Molenir you do not want the government to have any say in your healthcare, that is to decide what treatments you may or may not need, but seem fine with the idea of a for profit company to make those decisions.

Yes, that is correct. Or rather, since I pay them to insure me, if I need to visit the doctor, they cover the bulk of the cost. Part of the free market is for the company to decide whether or not I'm worth the risk, and for me to decide whether or not they are providing what I pay for. Its a contract that goes both ways. The governments role in this, is to ensure that they live up to their obligation. I have no objection to the government making it harder for companies to cancel existing insurance. I have no objection to them not being able to use pre-existing conditions as a reason to accept a contract either.

Please explain how the democrats have caused the decline of health care. Look at who runs health care; doctors, insurance companies, hospitals and drug companies. Where does it come into play that the democrats have caused the decline in their health care? Where does the patient have control of anything? < :-)

lol, what you have a problem with me saying that dems are causing a decline in coverage, but don't mention that totally made up number? Come on aday, that was the most bogus part of my statement. In response to your post about my not entirely serious statement, the answer is simple. By increasing the number of patients, without increasing the supply of doctors, you will eventually force a reduction in quality. In addition, by reducing the amount of money paid to doctors, while not reducing their costs, fewer people will go into medicine, and more people will leave the profession, again, reducing the supply of doctors. This is real basic economics. Its not hard to understand. Fewer doctors, more patients, higher costs, less renumeration is going to equal lower quality of care. Again, basic economic principles.

Molenir - Hot off the press, my friend:

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/healthplan.php

Lemme help ya out a bit; see the black line, that's going upward? That represents those in favor of the bill; the red, downgoing line represents those opposed. After that, there's a whole list of "favor/oppose", but ya know, gosh darn it, I just can't find ANY that say 75% opposed.

The Republicans are lying again.

tigermoth -

It will be quite interesting if we're all still around in ten years to see what the believers in this nonsense have to say.

We'll be telling our kids what the extinct Republican party used to be, then our kids will thank us for keeping them healthy and saving the country.

Lemme help ya out a bit; see the black line, that's going upward? That represents those in favor of the bill; the red, downgoing line represents those opposed. After that, there's a whole list of "favor/oppose", but ya know, gosh darn it, I just can't find ANY that say 75% opposed.

Allow me to point you to your earlier post. You remember, the one when you claimed that the "Democratic majority of America, say pass this bill. Now."

Now, please follow your own link, and find which one of those polls show a majority of Americans want this bill to pass. Thank you, come again. Go ahead and keep deluding yourself into thinking most people want this bill. One poll I saw showed over 80% think this bill will hurt them. I don't know if that poll is accurate, but with every single poll showing that people don't want this. And come November when the Dems lose both the House, and possibly the Senate. And when Obama loses in 2012, I'm sure our kids will be thanking us for saving the country.

The Republicans are lying again.

If so, why the secrecy and the deception by the self-proclaimed 'most transparent administration ever!' ?

Democrats hold majorities in BOTH houses and yet are trying to rahm through a bill no one has read and one that lawmakers are afraid to vote on.

Madness.

Molenir wants insurance companies to decide his healthcare options, cause they love his so much. That is why healthcare programs are cancelled when people get sick. Or they are denied coverage if they have a chance of getting sick.

Yes, that is the great rigged free market the no nothing republicans want. That is the same free market illusion that led to the bush depression Obama is now fighting. Yes, its all so perfect in their little minds how the free market works until it fails and the banks, the car companies, the insurance companies all come running the the taxpayers to bail them out. Republicans love depressions, they have started all of them while worshipping a false god of free markets. Get over it, its a myth that only the stupid believe and the corrupt republican elites use to fool the stupid.

Like Moore said and so many others, right wing republicans hate democracy and the other 98% of American citizens getting a fair deal.

I really enjoy reading posts like those of zurcronium's. You can almost smell the bile and spleen that consumes this guy as he watches his hero Obama smacked down by the Left's old enemy - - the people.

Odogma - you mean the people the same people who elected him and showed your party the door?

Odogma - you mean the people the same people who elected him and showed your party the door?

Americans vote in politicians, yes.

But you, like so many Leftists and Democrats, have long since lost sight of the crucial, perhaps disturbing fact, that it is the Constitution which makes elections possible in the first place and also makes possible ratification of laws and statutes put forward by politicians and their parties.

There are laws and statutes politicians and citizens are bound to. One election does not change that.

Since US military personnel take an oath to defend The Constitution I can only conclude you are on this site as some kind of troll or poseur...

What the Democrat Party seeks to do with this vote is subvert the procedural laws outlined in the Constitution and refined in over 200 years of deliberation by a democratically-elected government.

You know it, if you are an American citizen and in the US Air Force.

But like the New Left Democrats who have hijacked a once-great party you seek to deflect responsibility for the inevitable Constitutional crisis this will become onto anyone but the party that has crafted a monstrosity they call a health care reform bill. They have bribed elected officials, intimidated ordinary citizens, authored a bill so large as to be incomprehensible,inserted at the last minute government takeover of the student loan process and then cynically given the electorate all of 72 hours to go through 2,300 pages.

Now they are trying to say they 'deem' as passed a bill no one has read and no one has voted on.

If it is so good for America why don't Democrats want to take credit for it????

They are poised to force upon a majority of American citizens the most sweeping changes made to the US economy and to personal freedoms ever legislated.

Molenir if I was to dispute every number that republican posters post, I'd be questions that on almost every post. They are all made up. And when they are made up, they are lies. But a lie that supports your views aren't lies I guess.

And your theory on the decline in medical care is cute. I don't buy it. But it's cute. < :-)

Molenir if I was to dispute every number that republican posters post, I'd be questions that on almost every post. They are all made up. And when they are made up, they are lies. But a lie that supports your views aren't lies I guess.

Way to deflect aday. My made up numbers were posted in response to some other made up numbers, which of course was part of why I did it. Guess it goes both ways though right. And its not my theory on decline in medical care. I read it online. Seriously, do a little research. The people saying that aren't far right wingers. Not even all of em are conservatives. Its a very real concern, that is not being addressed in this health care debacle at all. Indeed, that bill is only going to exacerbate the problems. Really, look it up. I know you're too wedded to the dream of Obama to see reality, but there are serious issues that most of you on the left can't see because the O is blinding you to them.

Molenir wants insurance companies to decide his healthcare options, cause they love his so much. That is why healthcare programs are cancelled when people get sick. Or they are denied coverage if they have a chance of getting sick.

Zurc, how you get this statement, from what I posted, is beyond me. Its so far out in the field of fantasy, that I reread my post to see where your twisted little daydream came from. I can't find it. Its like you took one small part of what I wrote, and completely twisted it so its no longer what I wrote at all. I suppose its a common debating trick, but when you completely eviscerate any similarity to what I wrote, your attack loses power. Then you go on your silly little communist rant. That of course is easily dismissed as are most of your posts. But keep trying. Perhaps one day you'll learn to hide your obvious extremism to make debating you worthwhile.

Odogma -

There are laws and statutes politicians and citizens are bound to. One election does not change that.

Since US military personnel take an oath to defend The Constitution I can only conclude you are on this site as some kind of troll or poseur...

You know it, if you are an American citizen and in the US Air Force.

Ah yes, the last act of the desperate Republican who can't argue me down: cast doubt on my service and national origin. I laugh heartily when I see posts like yours, Odogma, especially when you try to tell me what I'm thinking. Rest assured I am an American, I do serve in the active USAF, and I'm proud of President Obama's actions to save this country from the neo-Nazi right wing.

Don't forget - I swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Don't forget - I swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Interesting, you say that, and yet you support actions, laws, and rules that are completely unconstitutional. Why don't you go back and actually read that constitution you swore to defend, and then revisit the issue. Its not a blank slate some legislators, and posters seem to think it is.

At the end of the day the conservatives are just fine with poor people not having access to healthcare. If reform fails then you can bet that every American will know every time their premiums go up that the repuglican party is at fault. There will be no cover to hide behind conservatives, you will be held accountable. The GOP is deep in the pockets of those that want to profit off the sickness of others.

Molenir - I've read the US Constitution many times; President Obama's actions are not unconstitutional, otherwise I'd never support them. Implying that other posters lack knowledge and understanding of the US Constitution simply undermines your own weak position, but then, no one's surprised by that, now are they?

and I'm proud of President Obama's actions to save this country from the neo-Nazi right wing.

And with that pathetic squib USAFdude admits defeat.

Odogma - admitting defeat would make me a liar. Won't do it.

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

Moderator, I'd love to keep the discussion civil.

Speaking about the most sweeping changes ever made to the US economy and to federal bureaucracy and to that matter most important to every single American - their health - Obama declared yesterday "I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what the procedural rules are in the House or the Senate."

But he and his corrupt,race-baiting attorney general demand due process for America's enemies, like Khalid Mohammed.

That pretty much sums up the usurper Barack Obama.

That pretty much sums up the usurper Barack Obama.

Ok, I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post. And most of your opinions as well. But Obama is not a usurper. An incompetent idiot who seems completely determined to force the country onto a socialist path, but by any means you care to count, he is a legitimately elected President. Even though at his present course, he will outdo even Carter for the title of Worst President in History. My point is, calling him a usurper is going too far.

The bottom line is that socialism always fails. In our case, it's just in slow motion. I heard today that Medicaid has $38 trillion in unsupported future obligations. Social Security is in even worse shape. Passing health care socialization simply takes more potential sources of revenue off the table in resolving the failing social programs we already have. Adding another isn't helping.

And for those that complain about having insurance companies deny you coverage or services, just wait until your government denies even more people services. It's not as if Medicare and Medicaid are not already denying people services right now. But somehow these government "insurance companies" aren't bad. Many of those people are able to go get private insurance to make up for what the government denies. Well, ObamaCare will cut off that option. I guess then convservatives can complain about how heartless "government insurance companies" and Liberlas just want people to die.