world

Israel says incursion will continue until Hamas rocket fire ceases

198 Comments

The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.

© Copyright 2008/9 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

©2021 GPlusMedia Inc.

198 Comments
Login to comment

President George W Bush emphasized “Israel’s desire to protect itself.”

Burning Desire, the same desire Bush had to protect U.S. from Saddam. Diplomatic pressure works well with India not Israel. There is worldwide outrage but media reporting is rather 'soft'. So let Israel fulfill her desire.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

“The situation now taking place in Gaza was caused by Hamas,” he said.

Thank god this garbage is on its way out of the White House. bush is honestly not only the worst president in this history of the US (and public opinion shows it, as will history very soon), he's a terrible excuse for a human being. International affairs? Hell, the man can't even accomplish anything worthwhile back home, and should just butt out.

It's not a surprise that he said this. He is utterly wrong, of course, but not a surprise. Hell, let's say Hamas DID 100% cause what's happening now, it's still in part up to Israel to cease fire.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Oh please, there have been worse presidents then Bush. Calling him the worst ever just shows you don't know anything about History.

And a ceasefire needs both parties to agree to it, and Hamas will never do so. Until they do, as far as I'm concerned, Israel should just keep on attacking.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Ok, I think its time to move the US army out of Iraq and attack these guys instead.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Altria -

Ok, I think its time to move the US army out of Iraq and attack these guys instead.

That would basically be the start of World War III. No thanks.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The problems in Gaza is similar to any situation where you have an oppressed group of people seeking to discard the yoke of oppression. It should be officially labeled an uprising, a desperate attempt to drive out the occupiers. This notion that Hamas started the war is ridiculous. A state of war has always existed between the two combatants, and only when Israel ends the occupation can any degree of normalcy return to Gaza.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

showing your military might over palestine is not the answer cos nothing better comes out of war.i think both sides should explore other options.and america with this current good for nothing bush is a shame.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is an uprising. The oppressed are trying to break free from the Occupation. The cease fire will have to come sooner or later. Hamas will want open borders and Israel a stop to the rockets being fired. Other issues which will be discussed is who will be controlling the borders. Whether it will be OK to arm the Palestinians or not. Humanitarian aid. The Arab League is divided. Saudi and Egypt are skeptical to Hamas but are also apalled with israel´s massacre. Arab league wants to take their case to the UNSC, EU will vote for an cease fire where as US will not at this stage but will when the pressure mounts even more. In the mean time there will be an urban bloody battle.

Controlling the borders will be the issue. Israel will not agree to a 1967 borders and Hamas will not agree to anything less than 1967 borders.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The similarities between Hamas and that of the ANC under apartheid is alarming.

Hamas is a people´s movement which enjoy lots of support in Gaza. From taxi drivers to university proffessors. The militants also have lots of support among it´s local population. Hamas is embedded in Gaza therefore Israel will not be able to erase Hamas from Gaza, what it can do is to stop the number of rockets being fired from Gaza and weaken the Hamas military capabilities, in the long run Hams will be just as armed as now and there will be just as many fighters who will fight the occupation. Cause and effect. The best solution for the Palestinians at the moment is that they become Israeli citizens with the same rights as Israelis.That probably will not happen yet and Israel will not retreat to 67 borders so by the looks of things Israel will maintain the occupation but let go of the blockade and then countries will argue over who will control the various crossings.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas fighters have strict orders, one of which is to change into civilian clothes when they retreat, and to hide their guns.

They will naturally come up as civilian casualties or deaths.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas fighters have strict orders, one of which is to change into civilian clothes when they retreat, and to hide their guns. They will naturally come up as civilian casualties or deaths.

You forgot to mention that another strict order is to turn themselves into little infants, pregnant mothers, ...

The Israelis are committing genocide, and world leaders are letting it happen, many of them are almost as responsible for this as Israeli leaders.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The ceasefire will commence when Hamas can't fire any more.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just like I predicted. The Gaza is getting smashed, split in two!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why Hamas couldn't wait until the new US president, at least they could expect something different to Bush ? They asks for it and now even the UNSC just keeps silent ,does nothing. The dam is broken and now the water will just to have to run all the way to the sea.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sabiwabi, if Hamas really cared about their children they would have evacuated them into safe areas long before they started launching missiles at Israeli women and childrent.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR, considering they continue to fight despite the odds, they are not cowards. As for evacuating their women and children into safe areas, do you have any idea how crowded Gaza is? I just feel so helpless, seeing so many of these poor people suffering and dying, all I can do is to boycott Victoria Secret, Starbucks, Polo, Ralph Lauren, Donna Karan, Calvin Klein, Hugo Boss, JC Penney, The Gap, and Banana Republic and urge everyone else to do so as well.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don't think anyone on both sides of the issue finds this situation acceptable. I'd pull my support for Israeli if there was any doubt in my mind that Israel is simply doing what it needs to do to protect its people while attempting to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza. There is no other reason for Israel to enter Gaza other than to inflict enough pain on Hamas to knock some sense into them. Israel doesn't need or want Gaza back nor are they hellbent in eliminating Palestinians from the planet. It is Hamas who refuses to seek peace with the Israelis and it is Hamas who stands to gain the most by putting down their weapons and work toward a peaceful two state solution.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

All Israel has to do to stop the rockets is to stop treating the Palestinians as cattle. Any so-called nation that encloses millions of human beings for years in the largest open air prison camp on earth, and restricts travel, food, electricity, fuel, medicine... should expect rockets being fired at them.

Palestinians deserve our help, Israel deserves a major spanking!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas is counter-attacking all over Europe! Copenhagen, Antwerp, Paris, lots of places really. I read it in The Mail.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Again sabiwabi what you refuse to understand is that Israel is ready for peace, has made one concession after another then greeted with suicide bombers. Until Hamas provides appropriate reassurances that it is putting down its weapons and walks away from its stated goal of eliminating Israel how is it possible for Israel to open its borders with Gaza? Its a standoff that Hamas is content with in order for it to continue playing victim. As long as Hamas has its enablers this situation will persist.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I guess they Isealites will have to kill every single Palestinean to stop all rockets, especially now. Isreal is ready to continue their killing campaign.

Cease fire? Hell no, they still got more ammunition and America is sending more over as we speak. Hell, they got $3Billion to spend and they don't want to disappoint anybody, especially george bush. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR, I agree with your post. Israel has more to gain from peace than does Hamas. They have very little or nothing to gain from exterminating the people of Gaza, as Sabi is accusing them of. Notably, Hamas in not calling for a cease fire, in fact they are making demands. As for evacuating people, that's good point! Why didn't they do so, knowing how Israel would attack. What were they thinking? Sabi can you answer that?

"Palestinians deserve our help, Israel deserves a major spanking!" And what do I get if I help them? I do know if I support Israel, It would be good for the type of business I'm in. Why would I want to help someone that no matter what I do for them, I'm still an infidel.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

and Hamas has their enablers that refuse to see how their tragic support for a bloodthirsty terrorist organizations dooms the Palestinian people to a life of pain and suffering.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The only reason that Isreal isn't considered a terrorist state is because the United States funds them. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

okay daydream all the problems in the world are caused by the United States, i get it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

In this case, yes. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

if you say so, no sense in arguing about nonsense.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The only reason that Isreal isn't considered a terrorist state is because the United States funds them. < :-)

That and the massive restraint they show in attempting to avoid large scale civilian casualties. In attempting to only target Hamas. If they were a terrorist state, there wouldn't be a Gaza anymore. They would have killed them all.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Any clues for peace in business arabia Gaza ??

0 ( +0 / -0 )

including 200 civilians

It's understood that terrorist groups like Hamas hide and shield themselves among civilians. Hamas loves when "Palestinian" civilians are killed, even more than Israeli civilians. They know the great propaganda value it has to gullible first-world leftists. They fired 30 more rockets today, and will continue to do so as long as civilian deaths continue mount.

From now on, she said, “when Israel is targeted, Israel is going to retaliate.

Good for Tzipi Livni. It took a woman to have the cajones to finally launch a military attack against Hamas. Olmert, what a first-class wimp.

“The situation now taking place in Gaza was caused by Hamas,” he said.

Just stating the obvious.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter Skelter: Blindly following the Fox News course of events i see, without any compassion for the innocent deaths.

Your posts are so predicatble. I guess if Israel went and had a bayonet contest against women and kids it would be justified by Hamas firing fireworks in to "Contested" Israeli territory.

The deaths by Israel cannot be forgiven. Only the bloodthirsty US government supports Israel, violent bedfellows.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas has their enablers that refuse to see how their tragic support for a bloodthirsty terrorist organizations dooms the Palestinian people to a life of pain and suffering.

Refuse to see? It's exactly what Hamas wants. The more the "Palestinian" people suffer, the better the propaganda value. If the "Palestinian" people were happy and content, their struggle against the existence of Israel would be far more difficult.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter: Stop pretending you give one iota about the Palestinian people -- they're Muslims, remember? You're trying to use them as a political tool is moot, since you hate them as much as all others born in and with ancestry in the ME. You are probably just plain old happy that Israel is cleaning them out, and feel you can use the 'human shield' thing to assuage a bit of your guilt.

Sorry, bud, but you've switched over and over again from the 'Hamas is bad' argument directly to 'this is about Israel's attack ON THE WORLD!' crap, so please stop pretending you care about the civilians.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I guess if Israel went and had a bayonet contest against women and kids...

Talk about predictable posts! :-D

0 ( +0 / -0 )

talking about the enablers, not Hamas, as in the misinformed do gooders provide the suppport Hamas needs to continue to exploit the Palestinian people and prolong this cycle of violence.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Stop pretending you give one iota about the Palestinian people

Smith, best direct your rants at Hamas terrorists who celebrate all civilian deaths, "Palestinian" and Israeli.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

but perhaps i'm giving them too much benefit of doubt, its quite possible they know Hamas is bent on the destruction of Israel and they could care less about the fate of the Palestinian people. It wouldn't be the first time in history this type of support from the sidelines encouraged really bad people to do some really terrible stuff.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Of course they ignores the calls. This is part of a mission to destroy Palestinians who they believe to be their sworn enemy. Aided by US aid and superior weaponary they continue killing.

Blimey, it's been years since Israel took notice of the international community. It's condemned countless times for its brutality and genocide, but does it listen? No it bleeding don't, ever!

Some posters on here even agree wiv their policies, beyond belief!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

here comes the ridicule

0 ( +0 / -0 )

unfortunately alf, Israel has succumb to international pressure in the past particularly to US insistence to agree to cease fires and to make concessions which has made them even less secure. I think this time however Israel will follow through completely and the international community will do what it always does, shut up and color.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter Skelter and VOR: Wonder why you love violenec and death so much.

I mean, a ceasefire is a path to peace, which is summink you both obviously don't want to see and that.

Do you derive pleasure from watching the suffering and destruction on Fox News? Israel don't want peace, strewth, it's obvious, even a child can see they is committing a genocidal attack on Gaza.

Do they want every arab dead? I reckon the answer is yes, judging by what they is up to, bloody disgracefull.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter_Skelter: "Smith, best direct your rants at Hamas terrorists who celebrate all civilian deaths, "Palestinian" and Israeli."

I notice you didn't deny what I said in my post. Glad that air is cleared, so that for those who might not have been sure if there was any good in your statements can be sure now that there's not -- at least if you're trying to point out the suffering of innocent Muslims!

Anyway, I've ranted at Hamas, Israel, and the US enough on these threads, and it's pretty clear that despite being presented with all sorts of evidence to atrocities by BOTH sides throughout the history of Israeli/Arab relations and in particular the Gaza strip, there are many on here who just won't stop seeing it from one side, and who believe it is entirely the fault of only A, but that B has nothing to do with it. That goes for extremists in both the Israeli and Palestinian 'camps', so to speak. There's really very little point in posting on these threads anymore except to point out how the only interesting thing is watching you guys go in circles.

Anyway, enjoy the petty bickering.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR: i donb'T support Hamas and all that, i am against Israel sending in Tanks and firing missiles into innocent peoples houses.

Anyway, i never endorsed either side, just the one who is killing like a nut case, and we all know whcih side that is don't we! Israel is thge bad one, why not have a ceasefire, why kill more women and toddlers.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Damn, I just can't resist!

VOR: "Being anti terror is based on respect for human life. Israel is going after terrorist who are using their own people as human shields while they attack Israeli civilians."

I agree with the first part, and agree that Hamas has been a valid source of terror as justification for what they believe is right. However, I don't at all think Israel is innocent in any of this. I wouldn't go so far as calling them terrorists, in that I don't believe that they target innocents intentionally, but I also don't think they 'respect human life' as though they are Buddhists or anything else. If they did, there is no way in hell there would be the onslaught that's occurring, and even if it were it would be on a MUCH smaller scale and even greater care would be taken in avoiding civilian casualties. What's more, if it's an Israeli baby killed it's simply terrorism and the root of all evil, but if they kill a baby it's called collateral damage. I'm sorry, but someone who 'values human life' utterly and truly doesn't see it in such simplistic, black and white terms. You can't generalize them as lovers of life and say, "Well, they don't have to love other lives they take if it's self-defense!"

"I'd like to see Israel convince Hamas once and for all the road to peace is through negotiation not rocket attacks and suicide bombers."

I'd like to see it to, but not at the barrel of a gun. Pointing a tank barrel at someone and saying, "Respect human life, or die!" isn't really all that 'anti-terror', according to your definition.

I do agree as well that Hamas doesn't seem to give a rat's a$$ about it's people, and if that's truly the case it's a shame they were elected, and no doubt will NOT be elected again. Once again, though, to pretend this invasion is entirely based on Israel's regard for human life is folly at best.

In short, negotiation is a two way street; best not done by threat of force, for then it is not really negotiation, is it?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The US gets blame for not controlling Israel but when Israel does call things off and when concessions are made the US gets no credit for bringing Israel around. Do I feel like wasting my time right now going through the archives. Nah, I got a day job to go to in the morning, but really do you really require links news sites to understand the level of diplomacy that takes place behind closed doors to bring these conflicts to a resolution?

hey smith i apologize, for the earlier post. its a new year. trying to tone it down a little bit in hopes you guys reciprocate.

the family just logged in from Japan. Time for my nightly webcam. I'll be back a little laer.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR: mmmm..... let's compare the casualties on each side, shall we?

Even if you thought that the death of one Israeli from a Hamas rocket attack was "worth" the death of hundreds of Palestinian civilians (which would be pretty sick to be honest), do you really think that such a response is likely to lead to future peace and security for Israel?

If you do, you are living in fantasy land

0 ( +0 / -0 )

why not have a ceasefire

There was, supposedly for six months, and Hamas terrorists never stopped firing Qassam rockets at civilian targets in southern Israel. So forget about ceasefires. Israel has to take out Hamas's capability to launch rockets out of Gaza.

i never endorsed either side, just the one who is killing like a nut case

Is this really the extent of your analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Surely there must be more to it than that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why is it that if you are against Israel you are not to be considered anti-Semite where as if you are against Israel succumbing to Hamas demands, you are an anti-Muslim bito? How does that work?

At the moment, a cease fire is only going to help Hamas.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"at least 500 people have died in the Gaza fighting, about a quarter of them civilians"

Except for the children who aren't responsible, virtually all of these "civilians" support Hamas.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"At the moment a ceasefire is only going to help Hamas."

Which is why there isn't going to be any ceasefire. The Israelis have had it with Hamas. Hamas is toast.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Armageddon. Israel and Palestinians will NEVER learn to live together peacefully.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR: "Do I feel like wasting my time right now going through the archives. Nah, I got a day job to go to in the morning, but really do you really require links news sites to understand the level of diplomacy that takes place behind closed doors to bring these conflicts to a resolution?"

I don't blame you for not wanting to go through the archives, but really it shouldn't be hard to find examples at all for Israel being pressured by the US. It should come up as a top hit in Google, and I'm pretty sure it would be mentioned in this story to contrast bush's hard-line toward Hamas and his inability to utter a SINGLE word of reproach towards Israel. On the contrary, he stated flat out that this is completely the fault of Hamas, and is 100% up to them to stop. When asked if he thought Israel was going overboard, he simply could not answer except to say Israel is protecting itself.

So, there's a bit of fodder for the argument AGAINST what you claimed, but there is nothing FOR it. I DO realize the amount of effort going into the diplomacy to get this thing resolved. In fact, they had terms and conditions for a cease-fire drawn up in the UN and the US dissolved the whole thing!

This sounds somewhat like diplomacy to me:

"Europe “wants a cease-fire as quickly as possible,” Sarkozy said after meeting Abbas, urging Israel to halt the offensive, while blaming Hamas for acting “irresponsibly and unpardonably.”

This, does not:

"President George W Bush emphasized “Israel’s desire to protect itself.” “The situation now taking place in Gaza was caused by Hamas,” he said."

Seems the EU, UN, and Arab countries are all brokering a cease-fire agreement that puts both parties at fault and demands both their cooperation. However, it seems the resolutions are equally aimed at the US, who seems more and more a simple extension of Israel in this case, since they are doing nothing but unconditionally supporting Israel.

I seriously hope the US DOES change their tune and put pressure on Israel, but if you want me to actually believe your claim that they have in the past, I want proof. In this case, a link would help nicely.

No worries about the former post. Enjoy the chat with the family, my friend!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter Skelter: I don't know what medicine you are taking, or wahtever, but it is blurring your judgement mate.

Tell, tou waht Helter Skelter, how abot this plan i have. Agree to stop firing. All the top geezers on each side meet up somewhere, supply a nice amount of booze, Scotch sounds good, a joanna. Have a knees up, let the spirits flow, and i bet they can start seeing eye to eye.

Strewth, i'm surprised no-one else has thought of a way like mine. Worked in my area between feuding families, why not countries, just have a bigger do, more booze and stuff. I reckon if my plan was followed through a lasting ceasefire would occur, and hundreds of lives would be saved.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel is the bad one, why not have a ceasefire, why kill more women and toddlers

I have a strange suspicion, maybe, just maybe, Israel is hoping for a major Middle East revolt. I believe Israel's neighbors, not their paid-off leaders, strongly support the Palestinian people. Maybe Israel is trying to trigger something that will eventually lead to a larger land grab than 1967.

Why else would Israel cram all these people into the world's largest open-air prison, cut off supplies of food, medicine, fuel, electricity; block journalists and humanitarian aid; and terrorize them with regular late-night, low-flying jet incursions and bombings (of "militants" of course), forcing them to eventually retaliate with puny rockets, giving Israel a false pretense to slaughter hundreds of innocent civilians. Why else would they do that, there must be a reason, or are they simply a bunch of psychos!

Anyone who supports Israeli policy must be a psycho.

Yes, I agree!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sarge, the fact that in your world there are no "innocent civilians" suggests to me that you think those who died on 9/11 were legitimate targets as well.

Why do you think these civilians support Hamas, which is the only resistance to the Israeli occupation which blockades their land, steals their property and prevents even medicines and food getting in to help the people? You'd support Hamas with your usual patriotic vigour, if you were in their shoes.

Try and think about it for once

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Agree to stop firing. All the top geezers on each side meet up somewhere...

Hamas has not stopped firing rockets into Gaza, despite agreeing to ceasefires. So your simple-minded proposal is really a non-starter, now isnt it. Best deal with the reality of the situation rather than silly hypotheticals.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Sarge, the fact that in your world there are no innocent civilians"

Please don't put words in my mouth. In the case of Gaza, however, as I said, virtually all of the adults there support Hamas. It's a sad situation.

"Why do you think these civilians support Hamas"

They love to see Israelis killed/maimed?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

World opinion and the JT survey shows that those who think Israel is going about this in the wrong way are by far in the majority; all you 'Israel does no wrong' are getting wet and as that which you pass blows back in your face. Enjoy.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"The Palestinian territories are composed of two discontiguous regions, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, whose final status has yet to be determined. The territories, which were originally contained within the British Mandate of Palestine, were captured and occupied by Jordan and by Egypt in the late 1940s, and captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War. "Palestinian territories" is one of a number of designations for these areas."

Yet, only Israel is considered to be the thief of all these parties.

No to a cease fire with Hamas!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR: "Israel is ready for peace"

That'd be funny if we weren't talking about a large-scale humanitarian catastrophe of Israel's deliberate making - one that will do nothing more than further enrage the Palestinians to oppose Israel even more strongly, causing exactly the opposite of what they say they are trying to achieve.

If Israel rebuilt Palestine, allowed economic development, gave people their freedom and statehood and treated them with respect, the terrorists would be marginalised and over time their support would fade away. Europe has realised this, and I predict that the USA will do the same once Obama is finally sworn in

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You'd support Hamas with your usual patriotic vigour, if you were in their shoes. Try and think about it for once"

And you do that same as a Jew, who were kicked out of their lands and sent into disporia and scatter throughout the world, sold as slaves and have been the targets of both Muslims and Christians alike.

If Israel rebuilt Palestine, allowed economic development, gave people their freedom and statehood and treated them with respect, the terrorists would be marginalised and over time their support would fade away" From the Ottomans, to the Brits, to the other Arabs that controlled the place didn't do any of that, but you expect Israel to do that for people who are sworn to destroy them".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helter Skelter: Your ignorant way of brushing off my idea, shows you just want bto see the killings of arabs to continue, and Israel is a pure angelic innocent .

My ideas aint stupid, strewth, none of me mates agree wiv you, and we aint muslim lovers or anythink. We all agreed that a ceasefire, an end to death is the best policy. Only Israel refused a ceasefire not Hamas, get your facts right you silly boy!

Why the hatred of innocents, why blindly following what Bush and Israel say, are you nuts?

The world apart from smarty pants America of course demands an end to this genocide. America be ready for more attacks against you, due to blindly following the Israeli terrorists.

Helter Skelter, you want to see more toddlers and old ladies dead, arms and legs blown off, or do you turn away from telly when they show the truth, (if they do on whatever biased channel you watch)?

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"World opinion and the JT survey shows that those who think Israel is going about this in the wrong way are by far in the majority"

Oh, for cryin' out loud, world opinion and the JT survey also shows that those who think Obama and Biden was the better choice over McCain-Palin are by far in the majority.

What do you want the Israelis to do? Bend over and grab the ankles?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

smith, i think you misunderstood what i wrote or in my haste i was not as clear as i usually am. I was talking about US diplomacy during previous conflicts and not this conflict. The current military campaign should not be interupted until Israel has crushed Hamas ability to terrorize Israeli civilians. Yeah I know its sounds harsh and yes I know Hamas will continue to hide behind women and children and yes I know Hamas will use these deaths to claim they are victims of Israeli agression, but what are the options, disengage and wait a few weeks until the rockets and mortars start landing in Israel again while the UN and the international community sit there with their thumbs up their butts until Israel takes action to defend itself?

Its a horrible situation that noone relishes but for some reason Hamas does not seem to care and once the world says enough is enough and shows the same resolve that it showed to defeat Nazism, Israel is stuck with having to fight for their existence pretty much on their own until either they or their arab enemies are defeated. If Israel ever goes, Europe will follow and then its North Americas turn. I don't think its wise to force Israel to simply roll over and hope for the best. That would be suicidal for them and ultimately the rest of the free world.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Majority rules HUNNY. x

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Majority rules HUNNY"

Not when the majority is wrong.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

VOR - how nice to know that the Israelis are there defending us Europeans against the Arab hordes....

...doesn't really look like it from what I see on the news, though

0 ( +0 / -0 )

That'd be funny if we weren't talking about a large-scale humanitarian catastrophe of Israel's deliberate making - one that will do nothing more than further enrage the Palestinians to oppose Israel even more strongly, causing exactly the opposite of what they say they are trying to achieve.

You might want to pass that on to the Palistinians on the West Bank. They've been pretty docile in their support for their 'Hamas' brothers in Gaza. Come to think of it why is the border with Egypt still closed? Seems their 'Arab' brothers aren't exactly in support of Hamas either.

It's pretty obvious when your own people on the West Bank would rather sit back and let this happen with only, for all intensive purposes mild protests in comparision with the violent infitadas they did in past, that HAMAS does not have the support of the majority of the Palistinian people.

If they did there would have been violent riots all over the West Bank directed at Israeli settlements and security posts. So far I haven't seen that reaction at all. See HAMAS for what it really is, a terrorist organization that even passes beyond the pale for his Palistinian brother on the West Bank to want to say 'Good Riddance' also along with Israel.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Not when the majority is wrong.

Haaaar! Wanna lose MORE money Sarge? LOL.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"What do you want the Israelis to do? Bend over and grab the ankles?"

I can't really see a viable outcome from either in-action or action from the Israeli's - so I fail to see what good can come from all the shrieking you're all doing here. The way the media is reporting on this in France is far too biased in the direction of the plight of the Palestinians, despite the abject misery some of them must be in right now. They elected Hamas in a democratic election, and now their appointed officials have started a war with a much mightier neighbour, though the mind boggles at how they lanage to declare war on an entity they refuse to acknowledge exists...

But I digress. I either see two options - a full scale invasion and annexing of Gaza to Israeli territory, which would stop the rocket attacks from there at least, though would obviousy start a whole new armed struggle...

...or, they botch it like they did in the Lebanon in 2006, give the fundie's a fight they think they can "win" as Hezbollah deluded themselves into thiing back in 2006 and then the rocket attacks resume.

Now they have opted for action, and it looks like the Israeli regime really has finally snapped over this constant showering of hit and miss rockets, then I submit they must go all the way and erradicate Hamas completely from Gaza.

If not, simply bombarding them was an utter waste of time as it will only bolster the fundie cause.

I now brace myself with a flak-jacket and ultra-resistant ear protection for the comments that are sure to follow this post :D

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas fighter #1: We're out of rockets!

Hamas fighter #2: Ceasefire!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No human being can enjoy the deaths of innocent civilians but when war comes ,it will produce a lots and lots and lots of corpses( innocent or not).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

terrorism that is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel can theoretically be pressured to stop fighting, but Hamas? How do you get them to stop? Bombs and tanks won't do it. "International pressure" won't do it. Sanctions, embargos and blockades won't do it. They WANT this war. So they will continue to fight, and it is the Palestinian civilians who will bleed for it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas knowing full well they would wage war on Israel. How bad should I feel for them now that they've got it?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"The Palestinians in Gaza elected Hamas knowing full well they would wage war on Israel"

I disagree. They voted Hamas because of their social programs, and thought they would improve their plight. As someone already stated, there is little support for Hamas from arab brothers, other than the usual opening to crtisize the Jewish state.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

My sources at the Dearborn Kabob House report that as Israel approaches total victory Hamas' Iranian support will become even clearer. This is why my friends Barack and Michelle Obama have cautiously refrained from commenting on Israel's police action in Gaza, or have been instructed to do so. I'm worried that the extent of the Iran connection will only serve to radicalize the Obama administration, and the rest of America.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts has an important point. Radical Islamic groups ofter derive a large portion of their support for their social aspects; just take a look at Pakistan. Where the "real" goverment is corrupt and inefficeint, these orginizations are the ones who structure comunities, provide law and comfort the sick and poor.

... that and train terrorists. Thorny as always; things are never simple here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It is Israel who is oppressing the Palestinians and placing them in refugee camps. It is Israel who terrorised the Palestinians from their homes and their native lands and placed them in ghettos.

There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza. One is the American version and the other is the non American version. The American version is about Hamas the democratic terrorist organization and the other version is about Palestinians trying to break free from oppression. Before Palestinians used to throw stones at the occupiers in Gaza now they launch home made rockets at the occupiers. The objectives is the same, to try to break free from oppression and occupation. Israel making sure to maintain the occupation and oppression while getting support by US.

Not too long ago Israel flattened the city of Jenin and now they are flattening the city of Gaza. In both caces Israel was fighting the Palestinians but this time however Israel say they are fighting Hamas which most non Americans take as a lie. Non Americans believe Israel uses Hamas as an excuse to carry on their plans to keep oppressing and exterminating the native Palestinians.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

there is little support for Hamas from arab brothers, other than the usual opening to crtisize the Jewish state.

Hamas enjoys huge support among Palestinians and Arabs throughout the Middle East. What it does not get is open support from Egypt but Egypt is run by a dictator who is not very much liked in his home country.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kkoobcam,

If the Palestinians were to integrate themselves peacefully with Israel, they'd probably be affluent people.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If only Israel hadn't broke the ceasefire.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Really proxy, I thought Hamas was at the root of the broken cease-fire.

Silly me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If the Palestinians were to integrate themselves peacefully with Israel, they'd probably be affluent people. The point of Israel is to make sure not to intergrate the native Palestinians with Israel. That is why Israel either killed or terrorised most of the Palestinians from their homes and then later placed them in ghettos and refugee camps and been caging them there for the past 60 years. Israel could annex rest of Palestine and give the same human and politicla rights to the Palestinaisn but israel does not want to do that. It also does not want to give independence to Palestine so instead they keep Palestine under a military occupation which by many is being compared to apartheid. This is why riots and Intifadas break out in Palestine. Intifada meaning to shake off. To shake off the occupation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To madverts.

The point of Israel is to make sure not to intergrate the native Palestinians with Israel. That is why Israel either killed or terrorised most of the Palestinians from their homes and then later placed them in ghettos and refugee camps and been caging them there for the past 60 years. Israel could annex rest of Palestine and give the same human and politicla rights to the Palestinaisn but israel does not want to do that. It also does not want to give independence to Palestine so instead they keep Palestine under a military occupation which by many is being compared to apartheid. This is why riots and Intifadas break out in Palestine. Intifada meaning to shake off. To shake off the occupation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes silly you, Israel killed 6 Palestinians in Gaza on November 4.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So the cease fire ended on November 4? Last I checked the cease fire held. It was considered to be an isolated incident...Hamas was digging tunnels, Israel responded, and then things calmed down again right after. Israel opened up the borders a half dozen times since November 4 and Hamas mostly kept the rocket attacks to a lower number. The cease fire ended officially in December and that's when Hamas started sending multiple rockets into Israel on a daily basis after the official end of the case fire.

Can we now put this "Israel ended the cease fire on November 4" story to rest? Hamas themselves didn't even say the cease fire ended that day, they said their beef was that the borders weren't fully opened up again. Hamas supports on this website are carrying that torch for Hamas even tho Hamas isn't even saying much about it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If the Palestinians were to integrate themselves peacefully with Israel, they'd probably be affluent people.

Just imagine a one-state solution, Palestinians and Israelis living together, with everyone over the age of 20 or so having a vote. Israelis would never accept this. Their policy has been from the very beginning to terrorize and murder the Palestinians out of their land.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Israelis would never accept this."

Yet you're defending people who refuse to recognize a state that has been there for ove sixty years?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To SuperLib.

The point being is that Israel violated the cease fire Superlib and killed Palestinians in November. So if there was someone violating the cease fire first it was not Hamas but israel. To be able to have a cease fire it needs to be a win win situation for both. Despite not firing a single rocket Israel maintained the blocakde and kept starving the Palestinin population. Hamas demanded Israel to open up the borders to let in humanitarian aid in to Gaza but Israel kept having the blockade. So Hamas started firing rockets. Hamas probably played right into the hands of the israeli strategists who had wanted to have an invasion into Gaza for some time. Hamas were left with 2 options. Either to be killed by starvation or by the Israeli war machine. Israel just needed the right excuse and by playing the victim and framing this as a defensive war Israel was able to go into a beseiged Gaza and carry out their massacres with US support.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes Superlib, put the facts to bed, who needs 'em.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madvert.

Israel has never recognized Palestine. Besides, which Israel would you want Hamas to recognize? Does Israel have fixed borders? The Israel of 1967 or 2009 ? How could Palestinian recognize a state that doesn’t recognize the very existence of the natve Palestinians? 1 state solution is the solution I think will come sooner or later and is the best solution for ending this conflict. The world will not support a 2 state solution where Palestinians are confined to small enclaves like bantustants in former South Africa surrounded by walls and Israel will not go back to 1967 borders because Israel already has hundreds of thousands of settlers in the Occupied Territories.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I fail to see how you can defend the position of Israel breaking the cease-fire when the militants in question were digging a tunnel on the border fence 250m away.

What were they digging for proxy..........freedom?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madvert.

Palestians were digging, food, medical aid which Israel is responsible to provide the Palestinians with due to Israel occupying Gaza. I am sure there were some weapons smuggled into Gaza too. Israel gets at least 3 Billion Dollars in aid each year and state of the art weaponry from US so not sure why smuggling weapons is such an issue. Can you see the hypocracy and the double morals Madvert? As an occupying power Israel is egregious violating international law and the Geneva Conventions by maintaining the blockade.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Who knows, since Israel did not open up the border in accordance with the cease fire the only way Palestinians could get anything besides the bare basics was to smuggle things in through tunnels. Don't get me wrong, I am no friend of Hamas but this Israeli action will only serve to radicalize the entire region and will if it doe manage to get rid of Hamas, an even more radical group will rise from the ashes. I bet I have seen 20 interviews of some Israeli official blaming Hamas for breaking the ceasefire and the fact that Israel broke the ceasefire is never mentioned. Hamas is bad but sorry, I cannot trust the Israeli government or any other government that runs countless spy networks in my best friends house (USA).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So agents of Hamas hiding under schools, hospitals and mosques can't be considered criminal? Heh, I'm so glad I sit on the fence over the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Who knows, since Israel did not open up the border in accordance with the cease fire the only way Palestinians could get anything besides the bare basics was to smuggle things in through tunnels"

What are the chances the militants were smuggling food and medical supplies?

Be honest.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kboom,

"Can you see the hypocracy and the double morals Madvert? "

Double morals? What the hell are they?

Heh, but what you're suggesting is that the US should be supplying state of the art weaponry to Hamas, too?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

520 palestinian casualties from latest source,in this war,120 are palestine children,330 men and 70 woman.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

correction- 520 palestinian casualties,120 palestinian children,350 men and 50 women.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yang,

As I said in my first post, I doubt the Israeli's are going to fluff it up like they did in the Lebanon. I putting my money on them taking Gaza via whatever means.

Whether it will achieve anything, and what the consequences (good or bad) in this fetid stalemate will only be seen years down the line. Either way, I don't think the Jewish state will be reigned in this time, neither by the media, the US nor Sarko's best efforts.

The expression "shit or bust" rings a bell.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts.

Israel maintaining the blockade and telling Palestinians not to smuggle anything and starve to death instead. Surely you are not that blind that you fail to see the hypocracy, and do not support collective punishment which is against international law.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Israel says incursion will continue until Hamas rocket fire ceases"

...and that won't stop until isreal stops being a bully and making daily life a misery.

so isreal is going again for personal gain because unless they are really stupid they know their actions wont end this conflict. maybe they listen to the ill infomed americans too much.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

573 palestinian casualties,latest news on aljazeera.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

888naf,

"...and that won't stop until isreal stops being a bully and making daily life a misery."

You want them to open the borders, but if they do rockets go in and suicide bombers go out. Not exactly a win-win proposal.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Dominic Nutt, of the aid agency Save The Children, reporting rapidly deteriorating conditions: "They don't have any water most of the day, there is no electricity, they are freezing cold, the windows have to be left open to stop them smashing when the bombs fall. "Children are at risk from hypothermia, they are malnourished, there is not enough food, the situation is getting desperate."

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This massacre is like a dream come true for the right-winged Israelis and their American blood thirsty supporters. They are teh same people who cheered on the US destruction in Falluja, and the Sabra and Shatilla massacres in Lebanon. They are the same people calling Hamas a terrorist organization while not wanting to dismantle a single illeagal settlement in the Occupied Territories . They say Hamas calls for destruction of Israel and they want to turn Palestine into a Sharia Law state like Saudi.. Actually, Hamas does not want to implement Sharia law and has called for a single NON RELIGIOUS country in Palestine. And as others have stated many are now comparing the Hamas movement with former ANC and Israel to former South Africa.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They say Hamas calls for destruction of Israel

OH BOO HOO. "THEY" don't say Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel... HAMAS says it themselves.

You know what is utterly ironic? The nutbag militants got their start several years ago by hooking up with the Nazi's. And now... the Nazi's victims are gonna take it to them. Poetic Justice, that's what it is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas wasnts a single non democratic state where everyone has equal rights. If you think that is the same as destruction of Israel suit yourself. how would an American jew feel if US became a exclusive Protestant state?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

typo. Non single non democratic but single non religious state where evryone has equal rights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This massacre is like a dream come true for the right-winged Israelis and their American blood thirsty supporters.

Actually, couple points here. First, the ones who want this war, who want this assault is Hamas. They were warned repeatedly, to stop firing the rockets. They chose not to. Second, 380 Terrorists, and 120 civilians dead, after a week of fighting, does not a massacre make. If there were 10,000 dead after a week of fighting, you might have a case, but there aren't. Israel is being very discriminant, doing its best to avoid civilians casualties. Despite their so called blood lust!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas wasn't going to stop shelling Israel so the Israelis are going to make them stop shelling. The logic is inescapable. The Gaza citizens elected Hamas to power so you can argue that they are reaping what they have sown. Maybe Israel should allow some refugees out of Gaza but, if they do, they risk a suicide bomber slipping through as well. That's the quandary that the Israelis face. Anybody have any solutions that provide safety to the Israelis as well as the Palestinians? Hamas doesn't have any.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel should not stop the incursion until Hamas is finished. If Israel leaves Hamas in power, they'll have to fight them again in the future, probably a lot sooner than 12 years.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I can't believe that people are defending Hamas.

Let's take a step back here people.

Look, I'm about as left as you can get.. but let's look at some recent history and try to understand how things got so bad for the Palestinians.

Before Hamas gained political power, they were a militant organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They are killers who cherish the spilling of blood of anyone on the Israeli side. They used suicide techniques (and continue to try, now employing teenage girl bombers) to blow up buses and cafes. Israel had no choice but to develop racist counter measures to protect it's own people. Hamas takes advantage of every opening, no one can forget when Israel completely pulled it's citizens out of Gaza and Hamas responded by lobbing rockets.

Now that Hamas is the democratically elected rulers of Gaza, their rocket attacks are an act of war. Let's make peace Abbas and Fatah attempted to stop Hamas, but were ousted from Gaza in a civil war.

From there there things rotted into the present situation.

Now having said that, I personally feel that Israel's aggression is overboard and flat-out wrong.

There are repeating there 1000 person killing tactics from the 2006 Hezbollah war which played right into the hands of Hezbollah by disgusting the world with their (IDF) indiscriminate bombings and killings. And let's not forget that Israel dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas.

Hamas is not going to stop the rocket fire. They need it to provoke these attacks from Israel. Every time Israel hits civilians, it makes Hamas stronger, not only in the heart and minds of their people, but through the internet across the world, as proven by some of the Hamas siding posts on this site.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well spoken, Moonbeams.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

moonbeams - "Israel's aggression"

That's Israel's taking the necessary action to prevent its territory and people from being pounded by rockets and mortars.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Labeling Hamas a terrorist organization if the big joke here. Terrorism is a normative term which is used to describe what the 'other' does, not what 'we' do. If Hamas is guilty for terror should not the terror label be used on Israel and US too?

Is calling for a single non religious state the same as calling for the destruction of Israel? Hamas has refused to recognize israel as long as the Israelis do not recognize Palestine and demanded a single non religious state. If not that a retreat to 67 borders. What Israel is it that Hamas needs to recognize? What borders? How would American Jews feel if US became an exclusive Protestant state where Protestants had different laws and rules than others? A Zionist Israel is no longer a viable long-term project. Israeli settlements, have made a two-state solution impossible. The only option for a lasting peace is a one state solution as Hamas is saying where all peoples despite difference in ethnicity and religion have the same political rights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

moonbeams

Have a nice day......Enjoy the link folks

HAMAS T.V

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=sdRXkT1_eoI

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Moonbeams :

« Let's take a step back here people. »

You need to step back at least till 1948. You are scratchin g the surface of the history.

Moderator: No history lessons please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Arabic Egpyt's Hosni mubarak says he wants Israel to win over Hamas. He also said hamas must not be allowed to emerge from fighting with the upper hand.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Terrorism is a normative term which is used to describe what the 'other' does, not what 'we' do.

Crap.....Terrorism is a criminal act that any person with morals understands. The difference between armed conflict and terrorism is simple. Terrorists kill innocent people ON PURPOSE.

Adjust your moral compass and get a grip on that concept.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To Sailwind.

Israelis kill civilians on purpose. And you tell me to get a grip? I hope youunderstand how ironic you sound.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israelis kill civilians on purpose. And you tell me to get a grip? I hope youunderstand how ironic you sound.

Nah........ If they did this would have been over a long time ago, get grip Israel has nukes, Gazawould have been turned to glass a long time ago.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To Sailwind.

YOu do not need to use nukes to kill civilians on purpose. Is that what Americans get taught in schools in US? Wow. Scary but hillarious.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Anyway, Israel is very very quickly losing sympathy around the world which, as many posters have pointed out, is one of the strong points of the enemy. Israel just bombed a UN school, and it's clear the majority of deaths is quickly shifting from what Israel calls Hamas officials to what are clearly innocent civilians. Oh, but no surprise from Israel, they say there is no crisis on the ground and supplies are getting in plentifully.

I was sitting on the fence yesterday, and while I'm not in the least supportive of Hamas, the Jews are very quickly losing any sympathy I had for their side.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

There was a 6 month cease fire. But the borders never opened to allow the Palestineans to get in supplies, foods, medicines, building materials... nothing.

So Hamas had to dig tunnells just to get the essentials in. With approximately 1,481,080 people, they had to dig to get supplies. Since enough Gazans didn't die through starvation phase, this incursion phase is meant to kill even more. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Great logic dude. hang in there.

Intellectual apologists for terrorism are the last thing that use logic...But hang in there.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sailwind: "Crap.....Terrorism is a criminal act that any person with morals understands. The difference between armed conflict and terrorism is simple. Terrorists kill innocent people ON PURPOSE."

You made a great post the other day and it's a shame you couldn't have left it at that. I see you've joined the band of fools that think terrorism can be simply defined as 'killing innocent people on purpose'.

Okay, then, by your definition the boys in Haditha were all terrorists, bottom line. Oh but wait... I guess then you'll come up with the excuse that 'it was war, and these things happen', right?

I'm giving you some extreme examples to prove just how foolish it is to think the definition of terrorism is so simple. And sorry, but Israel is now in the midst of shelling and shooting innocent people ON PURPOSE, with the excuse that they had warned them first, so it seems like they are innocent in doing so.

As I said earlier, Israel is very very rapidly losing any support it had... well, except for GWB's of course, but that's about as great a last supporter to have as having less than no one. IN fact, a bush endorsement pretty much seals the deal that Israel is going to be seen as being in the wrong.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

sailwind: "They are trail"

Do you mean 'on trial'?? I'm not asking to pick on your spelling, just to clarify. Okay, so if they are found guilty, will you call them terrorists in all honesty, sailwind? Can you promise me that you will? If you can honestly say that if any of those men are found guilty, you will flat out declare that, according to your beliefs the aforementioned guilty men are terrorists, that buys you a bit of credit. Until you can swear on that I don't believe that you actually belief the definition of terrorism you declared.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel is not doing well for itself at the present, and those who defend it outright are starting to look pretty bad themselves... that is to say, worse than before, with any sympathy eroding. If things don't get fixed up soon, Hamas is actually going to get MORE support than they had previous to this invasion, which would be a major shame. I don't believe in the force Israel is using, but I DO believe Hamas is wrong with what it has done as well. However, this could actually be a much bigger folly for Israel than they expected. In that respect it's a double-edged sword: Israel pulls out now under world pressure (minus the US) and they face a stronger, better supported Hamas. They stay there and try to utterly wipe Hamas out and (a) they lied about why they went in, since they said they had no desire to remove Hamas from power, and (b) there will not only be a major backlash against the Jewish people and faith in general, but Israel will be crucified by the rest of the world.

All this for a few rockets... none of which were killing anyone before the invasion (well, to be fair 15 people DID die between 2001 and 2008, pre-invasion).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Isn't it about time that the rest of the world finally walk away from Israel, who still seem to be seeking sympathy from what happened to the Jewish people during the Holocaust. Israel continues to commit crimes against humanity and we are all hesitant to really stand up to them because we feel some kind of sympathy about what happened at the during World War II. But we have all suffered throughout history. The terrorism of 9/11 against New York Americans and the US. 300,000 British killed fighting Hitler and the fascists. All those Bosnian deaths at the hands of the Serbs. Hiroshima and it's civilians flattened by an atomic bomb. The rape of Nanking. Why is it that the Israelis and the Jewish people get such an elongated 'free pass' ?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kkoobcam: Hamas enjoys huge support among Palestinians and Arabs throughout the Middle East.

Sure, as long as their brand of governance and devotion to Iran is contained within Gaza.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Why is it that the Israelis and the Jewish people get such an elongated 'free pass' ?"

They've hardly had a free pass as you say since the creation of the state of Israel. Each time Israel expanded it's borders was due to failed acts of aggression from it's rather un-friendly neighbours.

Again, I'm generally a self-proclaimed fence-sitter suppoting neither faction. But if Hamas really think Israel was going to show restaint whilst rockets continued to be fired indiscriminatly from Gaza then they really are living in La La Land.

The world media seems to have turned against them on this one - but that isn't going to stop the avalanche this time. I predict, again, that they'll take Gaza, and flatten Hamas. Methinks the blood-shed, especially for the Palestinians, is far from over....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel should stop the attack. They should wait for a larger, more powerful country to come in and liberate them from the palestinians who are occupying the west bank, gaza, and parts of Jerusalem.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kkoobcam: Despite not firing a single rocket Israel maintained the blocakde and kept starving the Palestinin population. Hamas demanded Israel to open up the borders to let in humanitarian aid in to Gaza but Israel kept having the blockade. So Hamas started firing rockets.

That's just not accurate in any way, and I've read quite a bit about it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

adaydream: There was a 6 month cease fire. But the borders never opened to allow the Palestineans to get in supplies, foods, medicines, building materials... nothing.

That's just not accurate in any way. There were plenty of instances where Israel opened the borders to allow supplies in, and it always followed a period when Hamas reduced rocket fire. Except for the last time they opened the border in December. That was when Hamas was cranking out rockets daily right after the cease fire ended and Israel opened the borders anyway. In my opinion it was Hamas' last chance, and they passed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

40 killed in a Israeli attack on a UN school. Strewth, everyone of them was an innocent like. They was taking shelterfrom the genocide.

What is you pro Isarel people gonna say abaht that. They aint even lettingb the media in to witness the slaughter, no bleeding wonder!!!

Hamas is defending itself against wanton bleeding slaughter. Gordon Brown cut diplomatic tie wiv Israel. They don't want a ceasefire just the death of arabs, bloody disgusting it is!!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"That's just not accurate in any way, and I've read quite a bit about it."

Heh, who cares about that, be damned. Both sides of the radical elements here just make it up as needs be or bring up another emotive subject totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Latest report from BBC: 629 Plaestinians massacred, mostly innocents. Most young and old and unable to be Hamas fighters.

Gawd, does you Pro Israel "good guys" still fink it is justifiable and even make jokes abaht all the dead.

BBC says from other arab countries support for Hamas is increasing because of the genocide. Israel is shooting itself in the foot, by this evil invasion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

40 killed in a Israeli attack on a UN school. Strewth, everyone of them was an innocent like. They was taking shelterfrom the genocide.

What is you pro Isarel people gonna say abaht that.

The Israeli Army captain, who looked about 16 years old and who was clearly British Jewish, told the BBC that they had received similar reports before that turned out to be untrue therefore at this moment they had no information to prove that it was true. Nasty little killers. Now they can't even stand up and admit what they are fighting for. They are just lying to themselves. The United Nations should kick the USA out for vetoing the ceasefire and for aiding the attack on the United Nations school. Kick them out of the UN.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I agree wiv northlondon: Them USA should get booted out of UN and Israel should suffer for the genocide and all the broken UN resolutions.

The BRitish Foreign office is noe condemning Israel. Only the US has to tell them to stop and a ceasefire can happen. Strewth!!! Does America and ISrael want more kiddies and ganny and grandads dead?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

635 Palestinains dead now. Israel are you monsters? Where is the bleeding ceasefire you are getting hated badly you fools.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I just turned BBC World off. I can no longer bear to see the limp bodies of tiny children being rushed into hospitals. Israel are barbaric and they no longer get any sympathy from me when the inevitable terrorism occurs in the future. Fight the enemy army man to man, instead of blowing up little kids. Genocide is the only word for it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Fight the enemy army man to man, instead of blowing up little kids."

A shame Hamas reject that philosophy and hide underneath schools, hospitals and any other available civilian facilities during bombardments, kinda making your argument a tad weak....

"Genocide is the only word for it."

Don't be ridiculous. War is the only word for it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

northlondon: Put Fox News on mate. They is only talking about US politics. No wonder our American "Buddies" on this site, don'T fink it is a big deal.

I felt physically sick watchinmg the pictures shown on BBC. Strewth, if anyone still supports Israel after that they are either mad or sadistic.

Israel ceasefire now, becuase this will come back and hit you hard, mark my words. The world is watching innit!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts- You don't know what is is talking about sonny!! I've experienced war, and that is fighting and trying not to kill womenjand children, and it means a ceasefire to allow innocents to leave.

Israel a facist and democratic state rolled into one.

Start the bloody ceasefire now you swines, you've killed enough!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Don't be ridiculous. War is the only word for it.

I have served in the British Army. It's a professional voluntary-only Army. And in our rules of engagement we do not target little kids or UN schools when we have to go to war. Maybe in your book though eh Madverts ? By the way, how come every time somebody here get upset with the slaughter of little children, all the pro-Israeli Americans on this site start ranting on about Hamas ? That's not the answer to what we are stating, as we are also against Hamas terrorism.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

SuperLib I was just reading a link about Hamas' attacks on Isreal and Isreal's attacks into Gaza. I'm looking for one that shows dates when the border crossings were open through both Isreal and Egypt.

It's not all Gaza's/Hamas' fought. There are terrorists on both sides, inside the government and outside.

There is all the crying and moaning from both sides. This is not going to get settled with this incursion in Gaza. It's going to make things worse in the long run and only succeed in killing a lot of innocent people. Hamas will come out stronger and there will never be an end to it.

Yes I know that the gates were opened from time to time. Several times they were opened only to allow some fuel through and nothing else.

SuperLib, no different then you, ever now and then I make general statements of an opinion that are squewed at times.

Isreal isn't going to win in this attack and murder campaign. It's going to cause continued fighting forever. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

When i was a nipper, America would have called a country doing waht Israel is doing war criminals.

What the heck has happened over the years. Why do we allow this cobblers to go on fron Israel?

Them Israeli troops act like the SS, and i mean everythink i sayt.

Why should Hamas stop defending itself against the invaders?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

north london,

Mate, first off you used the word "genocide". Clearly you've either put your emotion on stand-by or you've picked up a dictionary to learn what the word actually means and have subsequently decided to swerve responding to your outrageous mis-use of the word.

Good move. Next;

"And in our rules of engagement we do not target little kids or UN schools when we have to go to war"

Are you suggesting that the Israeli Army's rules of engagement actually say this, or where you just adding a bit of fresh emotion in the absence of anything credible to say?

But what you are actually saying, if I'm correct, is that it's fine for Hamas to use the rules of engagement you speak of, notably not giving a shit who they kill, be it man woman or child, when they send rockets indiscriminately into Israeli territory....

This is the exact reason I sit mostly on the fence on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, less I find myself in your position, defending one monster over another.

And unless you're going to be backing it up anytime soon, I doubt the Israeli's intentionally targetted the UN school, unless of course the arseholes you're defending were using their favourite trick (like the Taliban) of intentionally hididng amongst innocents...

Get down from your horse their fella and just think about who you're defending....heh, there is plenty of room on the fence here and I have no splinters in my back-side :D

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"madverts support war crimes"

Perhaps you could highlight these war crimes I allegedly support. If not, kindly desist. Your posts of today have made you look intellectualy dishonest enough as it is.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel clearly do not care what the world thinks about what it is doing in Gaza - if they wanted to commit genocide or holocaust or whatever emotionally charged word the radical left want to use, please be informed that they could do it overnight.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It is a little rich for Israel to be comparing Hamas as an extreme militant organization when Israel is more extreme. These rockets which Palestinians fire into Israel and state of the art technology which Israel fires into Gaza is not the same. You can argue and say that Palestinians should not have fired the rockets but Israel should not have closed it´s already occupied borders and starving the entire people of Gaza. If israel open up the borders and then the Palestinians would stop firing rockets and that is the better than the situation than now but US and Israel does not want that. They want to exterminate the native Palestinians like all colonist nations have a tendency to do. Besides Israel is killing deliberately. civilians, including entire families.killing knowingly is killing deliberately and terrorism.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Almost 700 Palestinains have died, most nothing to do with Hamas, and you think it is a normal argument, your points are as shallow as a worms grave mate.

Sod Israel, hope someone gives them a bloody nose, bully boy, murderous thugs!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts and AlfGarnett I enjoy reading posts and I actually learn something once in a while. And emotions are cool.

But the personal attacks. Not cool.

I'm just hoping that cooler heads and bright minds on both sides can get together. Somewhere there has to be a peace plan that works. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I only wants killing to stop.

The British Govt is well cheesed off with this, i hope sanctions are forthcoming and naughty Israel suffers and learns its bleeding lesson for once!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I doubt the Israeli's intentionally targetted the UN school, unless of course the arseholes you're defending were using their favourite trick (like the Taliban) of intentionally hididng amongst innocents...

And even if that were true, then that would totally justify blowing up a UN school with children inside then would it ? And I work out from your meaning that an accidental hit is also justified because it is accidental ? I guess that would make you the arsehole then. And what is it with you idiots claiming that we are supporters of Hamas ? You (the US and Israel) just take it so personally when someone stands up to the bullies in the global playground. Typical delusions of world-orderism. You throw the insult 'Hamas supporter' at anyone who is not scared one little bit of your disgraceful and barbaric violations of human rights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Don't be ridiculous. War is the only word for it.

1.38am Madverts defends the killing of little kids as a consequence of war. (Sounds so romantic doesn't it ?)

Are you suggesting that the Israeli Army's rules of engagement actually say this, or where you just adding a bit of fresh emotion in the absence of anything credible to say?

2.29am Madverts challenges the assumption that the Israeli army would risk harming children in their line of fire

Stay tuned for the next episode. (Confused ? You will be)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I heard people spout out that 700 civilians were slain. What no militants died? Question: How did Israel cause this current strife? That is what I am hearing from certain people.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Israel , leave Gaza alone. Maybe 1 day, an American president will take a stand against you, but i doubt it with the type of fella just elected.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Maybe 1 day, an American president will take a stand against you, but i doubt it with the type of fella just elected.

Ah. You would mean the great saviour, Barack 'no comment on Gaza' Obama ? Yeah, he looks pretty and he sounds pretty. But he's too scared to stand against protocol and say anything over Bush. The chicken.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Do you realize when you claim Israel is committing "genocide" and a "holocaust" (and let's ignore you're now at 8000rpm in reverse gear regarding these claims) you are giving Islamic terrorists a free hand to slaughter Israeli's in a similar cowardly manner. On one hand you say that the Israeli Army is purposely attacking poor little babies and purposely targetting schools, but you have not one word of condemnation in regards to Hamas, who do exactly the same thing.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You (the US and Israel) just take it so personally when someone stands up to the bullies in the global playground.

Former bullies trying to tell others not to bully never goes over well.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts-: Cause if Hams does it is wrong, butblook how many Israelis have died, how much property has been destroyed compared wiv in Gaza.

Israel is going nuts, they don't have to go in all guns blazing like its a bleeding war film. They must've been playing too many video games and lost reality.

The geezer on BBC said the Israeli army had the GPS setting for all UN property, yet the Israelis are so divvy that they hit bang on target a UN school filled with innocent. Oh it was an accident, either they is blatent liars or don't give a toss abaht whgo they kill.

More people died in that 1 Israeli attack than the last few years of Hamas "firework" rocket attacks. That is why i condemn the Isrealis, and it is bleeding genocide in my book!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Can Obama please stand up and denounce this Israeli action, or is he yet another American puppet. Strewth, they is so two faced, and stop killing Israel, you've done enough of that!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Latest news, palestinian casuaties is 640 people.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Latest news, palestinian casuaties is 640 people.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Can OBama please stand up and denounce this Israeli action, or is he yet another American puppet. Strewth, they is so two faced, and stop killing Israel, you've done enough of that!

Whatever appearance of being two faced America has was inherited from the predecessors, a nation guilty of much worse atrocities then either Isreal or Palistine have commited. A nation with absolutely no moral authority.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think every country in the world including Japan and colonist countries such as Canada would have voted in favor of a cease fire in the UNSC. not sure why US doesn´t.think they´ve lost it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Canada would have voted in favor of a cease fire in the UNSC.

I would hope as a Canadian, that Canada would abstain from voting.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Canada would have voted in favor of a cease fire in the UNSC.

I would hope as a Canadian, that Canada would abstain from voting.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

canada could vote in the UN in favor of a cease fire or not. US has no choice but to vote in the UNSC and they vote against is odd. uk, china, russia, france vote in favor but us doesnt so there is no resolution while more people are getting killed

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Kinda goes to show you're only as strong as your allies are. How interesting that Hamas doesn't seem to have any allies coming to their aid. Any have a good explanatin for that? Egypt? Syria? Iran??? etc???

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Madverts :

« This is the exact reason I sit mostly on the fence on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, less I find myself in your position, defending one monster over another. »

It’s like you are watching a fight, a huge muscled wicked adults beating a naughty small children until all their bones are broken in blood.

It’s not the question of “Who is right and who is wrong”. It’s a question of humanity. Even if both of them should be blamed, someone must stop the fight, instead of watching it sitting on the fence. Especially the strong adults beat even the children who are not concerned in the fight.

I don’t really blame you, as we individually can’t do anything. Big power like Russia, China and EU should intervene by force just to stop the fight. Political solution may come later, but just stop the fight. (Forget about the USA, they are always with Israel, even under Obama I guess. And we all know that UN is just useless.)

The problem is that in this issue, everybody is watching on the fence and no one tries to move a small finger a bit. (What Sarkozy is doing is useless as well. It’s his stage performance.)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Because as soon as they do, george bush and the United States will retaliate. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

moonbeams - "Israel's aggression"

That's Israel's taking the necessary action to prevent its territory and people from being pounded by rockets and mortars.

Sarge, unless you kill EVERYONE, this "aggression" will only insure that more people turn to militism.

Hamas wins in two ways here:

one, Israel looks like a murderous bully in the international media

two, Israel is creating the next generation of fighters for Hamas

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They want to exterminate the native Palestinians like all colonist nations have a tendency to do. Besides Israel is killing deliberately. civilians, including entire families.killing knowingly is killing deliberately and terrorism.

You are wrong.

If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could easily do that by wiping out the area.

I think Israel's actions are foolish attempts to desperately protect their people.

Anyway, as someone from the "in crowd," I can assure you that there is never talk about wiping out any people. People want to feel safe. Israel has been pushed to the brink of insanity.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This invasion and killings of innocent men, women and children by Israel goes well beyond the borders of Gaza. The images are being broadcast throughout the world. It will increase the level of terroism throughout the world. Many cannot understand why Israel did not target the sites where the actual rockets were coming from. In this day and age, surely the technology is out there to carry out surgical strikes against an enemy. Could it be that the actions of George Bush's preemptive strike against Iraq has set the stage for Israel to use indiscriminate attacks in Gaza, which result in many, many innocent civillians being slaughtered?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

moonbeams: Shame is ,they are wiping out the area in a very effective manner. TStrewth, te invasion was simply to demonstrate power to Israels neighbours, and as they all know Israel posesses illegal nukes, they will be terrified to help those in Gaza.

The Israeli govt has proved as crafty, and callous , maybe ecven more so than under the evil Sharon.

I remember Israel coming round Wapping cap in hand for mnoey and blood to help during the 6 day war. They don't need none of that now, not wiv 3 BIllion + free from UNcle bleeding Sam, their partner in crime.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

AT LEAST 14 more Palestinian children were killed in the Gaza Strip yesterday, 5th, as the misery and terror of civilians trapped by the Israeli bombardment intensified.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If Hamas can use mortars and rockets why is Israel not allowed to use them? Israeli rockets only come in response to what land on their doorstep. That's life in the ME. But we shouldn't expect idiots to understand that now shall we?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Alf: "Can Obama please stand up and denounce this Israeli action, or is he yet another American puppet"

Nah, he's just another American puppet.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

That's $3Billion per years for 10 years, military aid from the US. < :-)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Palestinians are pushed to collective punishment because Israel wants to punish resistance movements and national liberation movements. Israel is not a normal country, it is an occupying, racist colonial country and the native people of Gaza are under siege. . When colonial nations occupy other people´s country, siege has been used as a weapon to collective punnish an entire people. Siege is a military action at the beginning of war. Now the Palestinians are being killed by bombs in refugee camps by the oppressing land stealing colonists who caged them there.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why am I so confident that if North Korea started lobbing rockets into Japan the "Israel hits back too hard" crowd here would be singing a different tune?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Shiuu, thats because you're in touch with reality, and not an idiot. Think about it, if France started lobbing rockets into England, or vice versa, what do you think the response would be? But of course everyone would blame the victims like they're doing here with Israel.

Oh, and that school that got hit, those kids that got killed. Interesting how there was mortar team set up right next to it, firing on Israeli positions. Yes, no doubt the terrorists didn't even think about the possibility that Israel might return fire. They certainly didn't try to evacuate the school they were firing from.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

All those bodies I see on TV, truly make me sad. But what really infuriates me, is that none of them would have died had Hamas not been shooting off rockets. None of them would have died had their parents not supported Hamas, and none of them would have died had their families made honest attempts to flee from the war zone. Yeah, tried to cross into Egypt to get away from the fighting. Oh wait, Egypt isn't opening its borders to refugees. Hmm, wonder why not?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No kidding Molenir, the armchair pacifists rarely comprehend that you can't get peace if just one side stops the shooting. Heres looking at you Hamas...

Considering how easy it is to make things worse for the other is good old propaganda. Oh a school was hit with a rocket from Israel! Totally ignoring the fact there was a hostile militant group using it as a position for launching their own artillary. Why not ask why Hamas didn't evacuate the area if they were going to use it for warfare? Because they know that super simple soft hearted people will make things harder for their enemy if you make it appear the enemy is the one constantly in the wrong.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Now they have opted for action, and it looks like the Israeli regime really has finally snapped over this constant showering of hit and miss rockets, then I submit they must go all the way and eradicate Hamas completely from Gaza. If not, simply bombarding them was an utter waste of time as it will only bolster the fundie cause. I now brace myself with a flak-jacket and ultra-resistant ear protection for the comments that are sure to follow this post.

Not from me, Adverts. You are certainly right from a strategic point of view. The question comes, then what? I've been reminded repeatedly, "The Israelis want peace while the Palestinians want to pick a fight."

The thing is, when you have everything else of course you want peace to formalize the status quo. The "peace dividend" is a lot less meaningful to those with little or nothing else.

Curiously, the American public is not strongly supportive of Israel (in contrast to the leadership of both parties) on this. I can only conclude it's because the same voices who claimed we needed to invade Iraq for our own safety are insisting this assault on Gaza will bring security to Israel. Bill Kristol claims Israel will be successful here when it failed miserably in Lebanon, an assault he supported at the time incidentally. He also predicted Iraq would be a cake walk. Well, what if he's wrong again?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I really don't see any solution to this morass. Hamas and the people of Gaza are brought up to hate Israel and the Jews. They are taught that the best thing they can do is to die as martyrs. So even if Israel succeeds in stopping Hamas this time around, you know the cease fire will only last until they can make, or smuggle in more weapons. But then you can't blame Israel for wanting to stop the rockets.

As far as I could see, there are really only a few ways forward, and only a few of them are acceptable in any way.

1 Israel drives the people of Gaza into Egypt. This leads to war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria again, but would eventually lead to peace. Though the casualties on both sides would be horrendous.

Israel is destroyed. If the US pulled its support from Israel, eventually the surrounding countries would unite and destroy Israel. Again, the casualties would be horrendous.

Hamas is forced, somehow, to accept peace. Rather like Abbas has done. This would doubtless include a Palestinian state, and eventually open borders.

There are probably other solutions as well, though the third option is obviously the best for all parties. Unfortunately, Hamas is not inclined towards peace. They obviously don't care about their people at all, and since their reason for existence is the destruction of Israel, it doesn't seem likely that option 3 will ever happen.

The only way I can see out of this, is if there is significant and continuous loss of life on the part of the Palestinians. Forcing them to rethink their support for terrorism.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

kkoobcam, obviously you've never read the Hamas Charter. THEY call for the elimination of all Jews...

It's NOT us making this up... it is in their organizational charter.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

When will they stop killing each other? Never! Blood shed promote hatred. Hatered promote revenges. It is a never ending cycles of tragic story.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Betzee,

The IDF are attempting the peace through superior fire-power thing. Right or worng they must go all the way now and remove Hamas from Gaza, or risk further bolstering the fundie cause - not only through all the horrific images we're getting 24/7 on the telly, but because if they stop now Hamas will claim a "win" like Hezbolla did back in '06, and the rockets and broken cease-fires wil continue.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I posted this on another page but it's all relevant:

They're all mental. Someone drops a bomb, someone retaliates, someone retaliates, someone retaliates.... It's a never-ending cycle. I know I'm MASSIVELY generalising but so many atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years that it's impossible to place the blame on either.

Palestinians have done horrific, immoral, murderous things to innocents. Israelis have done horrific, immoral, murderous things to innocents. They're both as bad as each other. It's a conflict that's been going on for 1500 years.

I don't think this is a situation that will be resolved by fighting or talking. If they stop the fighting for a generation or two the hatred between them would be eventually neutralised.

Every post argues one way or the other. I'm sat here thinking "Palestinian sympathy, must be a Muslim/ Isreali sympathy, must be a Jew". This whole conflict is the only proof you need of the damaging power of religion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The 3 hour a day ceasefire and opening up of a route for aid by Israel is a good start innit. Hopefully the genocide will also end shortly, it bledding should do.

The BRitish government has warned prominent Jews to beware of attack in retatliation of Israels attack. That is summink i predicted would happen, and someone called me a bigot amongst other fings!

I reckon it shows i use me loaf proper, and don't pick sides. I am entirley neutral in this dispute, so my posts can be read without anyone fearing bias. Strewthy, not like most from a certain country, on here like.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

AlfGarnett - You obviously have no concept of what Genocide is. Maybe its because you are too young to remember Serbia and Kosovo. Now that was Genocide. The systematic slaughter of everyone, that is Genocide. This doing their best to minimize civilian casualties, this is so far removed from genocide, you would have to be either an idiot, or a uncaring partisan to call it such.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The person who claims 600 people dead, most of whom were Hamas, is genocide, mate.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Zenpun:

" When will they stop killing each other? Never! Blood shed promote hatred. Hatered promote revenges. It is a never ending cycles of tragic story. "

You suggest equality here. There is no such thing. Hamas is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state -- Israel only wants its citizens to go about their lives without being attacked with rockets every day. Unreasonable?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Login to leave a comment

Facebook users

Use your Facebook account to login or register with JapanToday. By doing so, you will also receive an email inviting you to receive our news alerts.

Facebook Connect

Login with your JapanToday account

User registration

Articles, Offers & Useful Resources

A mix of what's trending on our other sites