Dubai wanted list for Hamas slaying faces snags

But Dubai’s wanted list appears to have major holes.

No it doesn't. It's straightforward in the extreme. The passports were faked. That's that. No holes so far as I can see. Plus some of those photos surely break all the rules? The Mildiner one shows a man smiling. Wrong. The woman is smiling too. A couple of them show men with spectacles, at least one of them partially obscuring the eyes. Again, wrong. Those photos would never have been used for legitimate passports, and I'm surprised it wasn't picked up during their travels.

Was it Mossad? I don't know, but I'd be surprised if it was anyone else. I'm sure they're capable of having done their homework about the security, and paying off or killing anyone necessary to get the job done. They've done it before. Certainly the European governments concerned are checking to see if the other real people passed through Israel in the not-so-distant past, so they're thinking Mossad might be responsible too.

However, he said it “doesn’t look like an Israeli operation” because of the apparent sloppiness, including allowing members to be videotaped by security cameras.

Rubbish. Ever heard of cosmetic surgery? We have. And they'll never fool us by pretending that they haven't.

-so they are saying all 11 of these photos and passports don't show up anywhere. -No wonder airplanes are still having trouble with terrorist threats.

-I don't believe it and there is no way these terrorists should be allowed on any plane.

=they know exactly who these people are.

I have a hard time believing its Mossad. It could be. Certainly they have sufficient motivation for killing him. But based on how sloppy this op was, how easily tracked these people were, I just don't believe it.

Could be Mossad. but I'm putting money on an organized crime group. Who does Hamas buy their weapons from and how? Or, before Sabi grills me, when I say organized crime, it could also be an Israeli group too. Nothing surprises me.

I agree with Molenir. I had doubts from the beginning that it was Mossad. I now highly doubt Mossad had anything to do with this. First, it was the overall sloppiness. Second, the fact that so many people were used so obviously. Third, that after all is said and done, Israel would get very little in return for such an investment of time, manpower, and resources, not to mention the obvious security risks. However, now it is ridiculous to think Mossad would use faked passports with names of Israeli duel citizens on them. Way to sloppy.

Sorry, second time for this mistake! 'too sloppy'. (Speaking of sloppy!;-)

It reads like a plot for Borat's next movie.

“No one wanted to assassinate him but Israel,” said al-Mabhouh’s brother, Fayek, in Gaza’s Jabaliya refugee camp.

Oh heavens no, Israel would never steep so low as to kill anybody, ever.

Sloopy? I've been enjoying the MSM tell how sophisticated this assassination was conducted. How professional. < :-)

From The Guardian:

Mossad agents have been caught with foreign passports before, triggering diplomatic rows. In 1997, two Mossad agents using forged Canadian passports were arrested in Amman after trying to assassinate Khalid Meshal, a Hamas official who is now the movement's leader, by spraying poison into his ear.

The operation nearly succeeded but then the agents were quickly captured and their mission backfired spectacularly.... That operation was carried out while Binyamin Netanyahu was prime minister. He is now in the job for a second time. ...Israel promised Canadian passports would never again be used for such missions.

But within a few years, another dispute surfaced. Two suspected Mossad agents were jailed for six months in 2004 in New Zealand for trying to falsely obtain a New Zealand passport . They were caught when an immigration official noticed a passport applicant was speaking with an American or Canadian accent.

Helen Clark, the then New Zealand prime minister, criticised Israel for behaving in a way "unacceptable internationally by any country".

"The breach of New Zealand laws and sovereignty by agents of the Israeli government has seriously strained our relationship with Israel," she said at the time. "It is a sorry indictment of Israel that it has again taken such actions against a country with which it has friendly relations."

So it seems this Dubai murder is typical Israel, typical sloppy Mossad, and typical Netanyahu

So it seems this Dubai murder is typical Israel, typical sloppy Mossad, and typical Netanyahu" Well, then there you have it then, no?

Besides, didn't this guy pose a threat to Israel- regardless of which side you are rooting for?

The more publicity the better. Make the murderous Hamas scum think nowhere is safe for them.

Of course, spies sometimes get caught during their operations. Of course, this also goes for Mossad agents. I would never suggest Mossad agents (or any other intelligence agents) are perfect or that they never make mistakes. I also would never suggest Mossad agents (or any other intelligence agents) would never used forged or fake passports. Quite the opposite, I have suggested from the beginning that the passports would probably be fakes.

The examples you gave do not show any lack of intelligence (IQ wise) on the part of Mossad or its agents. Spies sometimes get caught. In fact, in the New Zealand example, there seems to be no specific proof of Mossad involvement, leading to the word 'suspected' being used.

However, it is unrealistic for anyone to think that it is an uncommon practice of members of intelligence agencies to hold doctored passports. Of course they would. What I am referring to is the way this operation was performed. Again, it does not look like a Mossad type of operation. The latest news saying the suspects used passports with names of Israeli duel citizens confirms that it is unlikely that Mossad is involved.

Again, it really does not seem as if Mossad or Israel is involved.

Make the murderous Hamas scum think nowhere is safe for them.

In case you haven't been paying attention:

A little over one year ago, the Israeli military murdered about 1400 Palestinians who were fenced-in in Gaza. Up to 80% of them were civilians, including 350 children. During that time 13 Israelis died, 3 of which were civilians and almost half the military deaths were from friendly fire (i.e., sloppiness).

So if there is any murderous scum deserving to be murdered, it ain't Hamas officials, but rather members of the Israeli government and military. If there

Besides, didn't this guy pose a threat to Israel- regardless of which side you are rooting for?

Certainly, al-Mabhouh was not a peace worker. Considering al-Mabhouh was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and that he had never been involved with anything resembling charity work or help for the needy in his positions with Hamas, it is highly unlikely his work in Dubai had anything to do with importing much needed medicines. It is more likely he was working to get weapons smuggled into Gaza as he had done in the past.

Make the murderous Hamas scum think nowhere is safe for them.

It's Israel that's doing the murdering here. No different then any other Israeli killing spree.

Murdering bastards. < :-)

Oh heavens no, Israel would never steep so low as to kill anybody, ever.

I have to confess that I do not understand the reasoning behind such protestations. I can't recall anyone every suggesting Israel/Mossad have never killed anyone or had anyone killed. Intelligence agencies do this kind of thing and have done this kind of thing all the time. What is being suggested, by myself and others, is that looking at the entire operation leads to the conclusion that it is not likely Mossad is involved. No one is saying 'Mossad would never kill anyone.' or 'Israel would never kill anyone.'

The Gaza War has nothing to do with this discussion. In my humble opinion, neither does Israel this time.

adaydream,

We have no idea that Israel is even involved. What makes you specifically think they are?

In fact, in the New Zealand example, there seems to be no specific proof of Mossad involvement, leading to the word 'suspected' being used.

Indeed, the article about the New Zealand case uses the word "suspected". But the New Zealand prime minister specifically accused "agents of the Israeli government", so whether it was Mossad or some other Israeli government agency that was committing this crime is not very important.

It's Israel that's doing the murdering here.

Like your unfounded claim that Cheney lied to Congress (and as the vice president led America into war?) you have no proof. You just have a very active imagination and your silly emoticons.

Accusing someone and it being true are not the same thing. This is true with this case as well. Lots of people are guessing that lots of other people could be the killers. That does not mean that they were the killers.

Mossad or some other Israeli government agency that was committing this crime is not very important.

It is if you choose to blame Mossad.

Just an opinion. A strong opinion. < :-)

Of course, you have every right to your opinion. I was just curious if it is based on something factual or not.

so whether it was Mossad or some other Israeli government agency that was committing this crime is not very important.

Actually, to take off from this angle, does this also mean that it is not important if Israel and Mossad had nothing to do with this?

Just an opinion, just like those who think that they don't think it's Israel or Mossad. An opinion. < :-)

However, those, like myself, offering the opinion that it might not have been Mossad have suggested reasons why this might be so. I was hoping you might have suggesting that have lead to your opinion that Israel is involved.

Sorry: 'suggestions that have lead you'

No different then any other Israeli killing spree.

Since when is one person a 'spree'?

The Gaza War has nothing to do with this discussion. In my humble opinion, neither does Israel this time.

Well the words Mossad and Israel do show in the article, and Hamas has accused Israel, so Israel is definitely relevant.

Considering that the Gaza carnage (not war) was basically Israel slaughtering a crowded, defenseless, fenced-in population, I do not consider a Hamas official trying to arrange a modest defense for his people (if that is indeed what he was doing) as a murderous scum. Such a title is infinitely more fitting for the other side. I realize that the Israeli IDF is only brave enough to fight against young stone throwers, but to consider that murdering this guy is OK because he allegedly posed a threat to Israel is ridiculous.

kinniku,

About the New Zealand casae, if not the Mossad, what other Israeli government agency would try to falsely obtain passports from a friendly country?

I am not 100% sure the Mossad was behind the Dubai murder, but they certainly have a motive, its certainly their style, and it appears to be at their level of competence. I suspect the killers will gradually be eliminated (they’ll go swimming with the fishes) so they don’t talk.

sabiwabi,

Well the words Mossad and Israel do show in the article, and Hamas has accused Israel, so Israel is definitely relevant.

Obviously, Israel has been brought up by Hamas and that is mentioned in the article as it should be. It is news because of that. However, that does not mean that Israel is actually relevant to this incident. If that is the end of the relevance, it does indeed seem there is little relevance. Just because someone mentions the name of a person or country does not neccessarily mean that person is guilty or involved in anything.

The Gazan War is completely irrelevant to this discussion. As to al-Mabhouh, he was not a peace worker. Considering al-Mabhouh was a senior Hamas military commander and one of the founders of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and that he had never been involved with anything resembling charity work or help for the needy in his positions with Hamas, it is highly unlikely his work in Dubai had anything to do with importing much needed medicines. It is more likely he was working to get weapons smuggled into Gaza as he had done in the past. As you yourself have admitted, Israel did have motive to want him dead, whether they actually were involved or not is a different story.

I realize that the Israeli IDF is only brave enough to fight against young stone throwers,

With rockets, bombs and automatic weapons, actually, if we are being accurate.

but to consider that murdering this guy is OK because he allegedly posed a threat to Israel is ridiculous.

Personally, I don't see the point in killing this person. In the end, it changes nothing. However, you have admitted that the potential dangerous this individual caused over the years certainly was more than enough motive. Again, sad as it is, this kind of thing goes on amongst not only intelligence agencies, but also weapons dealers and members of organized crime. It is hardly unusual in the Middle East or around the world and it is hardly limited to Israel or Mossad.

About the New Zealand casae, if not the Mossad, what other Israeli government agency would try to falsely obtain passports from a friendly country?

Well, we do not even know if Mossad or any Israeli agency was involved in that incident or not. They also could have been members of a crime organization. Israel, like any society, has them. Just because that was what was accused does not make it neccessarily so. The US and Britain accused Iraq of having tons of WMDs, and it seems that that was not so.

I am not 100% sure the Mossad was behind the Dubai murder,

Agreed.

but they certainly have a motive,

Agreed.

its certainly their style, and it appears to be at their level of competence.

Again, I disagree. Having a history of using false passports along does not make it 'their style' it is very common for members of intelligence agencies in general to have 'alternate' passports and it is quite well known that Mossad is quite competent at doing the job they do.

I suspect the killers will gradually be eliminated (they’ll go swimming with the fishes) so they don’t talk.

Since it seems that the names of most of the people Dubai named either, don't exist or claim they are not the people mentioned, I doubt there will be any killings of that sort of the people who have already spoken up.

What I dont get is the Dubai cops breaking the case, their about as efficient as Jcops finding a stolen bike.

DXXJP,

That's is kind of why I am not quite sure they have actually broken the case. Maybe they got lucky.

Well, they got the killers on film. In some cases we can see them quite clearly and I think some of them will be identified despite their Village People-type mustache.

I have a feeling the video is going to be about as useful as the passport pictures and names the Dubai officials have made public have been, ie, not very at all.

Mossad has a long history of competence. This does not fit their style, and it certainly doesn't fit their capabilities. Not saying it wasn't them, it just doesn't seem likely. There are plenty of other guys out there who could have wanted him dead. Including people in Hamas even.

Mossad has a long history of competence.

Yes, I do agree that they've certainly murdered many people that we do not know about. But they have their fair share of blunders.

I guess they save their best guys for really important targets (e.g., important world leaders).

kinniku: This does not fit their style

After reading more about this story, I would have to agree. It doesn't appear to be a Mossad operation, even though sabi assured us it was. I certainly wouldn't have minded them getting the credit though.

sabi: Considering that the Gaza carnage (not war)...

No, it was Israel going after Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists who have been firing thousands of rockets into Israel. Then, when Israel finally retaliates, the terrorists shield themselves with civilians in order to incur the highest number of civilian deaths. It's an old game, yet people are still duped by the "Palestinian" lie.

So far, only one known incident of Mossad's that was unsuccessful in Canada 13 years ago has been mentioned. It is certainly a stretch to think that this alone supports the notion that Mossad is not very competent or that they are sloppy and make blunders. I am not quite sure of the reasoning behind such sentiments as one thing that is certain is that Mossad has always had a very competent reputation. As far as 'saving there best guys' for the most important missions goes, that only makes sense and would certainly be true for every other countries intelligence agencies as well and, again causes one to pause at such reasoning being brought up into this conversation. Then again, I am not quite sure how some people can know about people who have been killed that 'we don't know about'. In short, it is rather strange to spend years bringing up Mossad and Israel and blaming them for everything that happens from a hang nail on an ant to lunar eclipes and also at the same time say they are routinely sloppy, blunder and are incompentent.

The reasoning in this thread so far from people who are suggesting it is Mossad seems flawed at this point in that there does not seem to be any particularly specific reasons behind it aside from blaming Israel.

I agree with both Molenir and Helter Skelter that it does not fit Mossad's style.

kinniku, Mossad has for the last 5 decades been attributed to assasinations worldwide. It is common knowledge, they ignore international laws that Israel have signed to and because America support them 100% , think they can act with impunity.

stevecpfc,

I have never written anything to suggest Mossad never had anything to do with someone being killed. In addition, it is common knowledge that intelligence agents from many countries have killed people worldwide over the last 5 decades. International laws or not, thinking they can act with impunity or not, this is a reality that is not only related to Israel's intelligence agency, but to most, if not all, countries' intelligence agencies in the world.

kinniku, yeah and the alleged killers took the identeties of join t Israeli citizens to kill a Hamas man. Now , let`s think clearly, oh yes, the Israeli govhad the passport deals and do not like Hamas. The puzzle is not too hard to find , unless ones brain has been manipulated by a different agenda.

Finally, passports of people in Israel = government knowledge, Hamas = Israeli enemy, 5 decades of Mossad killings = Israel. Think the puzzle is easy to solve here.

stevecpcf,

I think the 'puzzle' is missing a lot of pieces if you think it makes sense for an intelligence agency to knowingly use passports that are easily traceable to citizens of their own country when they could have chosen people, names and passports from anywhere in the world.

I do not think this is about having an agenda as much as common sense. Is it at all possible that Mossad acted was involved in this incident and acted in a way that seems as if they threw common sense out the window using an operating style they never seem to have before? Sure. Is it likely? I don't think so.

kinniku, the Isareli gov is made up of fanatics who believe in a book of fairy tales thousands of years old. Hardly intellectuals are they?

I’m not going to go over all that has been gone over above and Sabi at me with more of his half truths that don’t in fact prove anything except Sabi’s single line thinking. Dubai is an international centre for the shadowy dealers of every kind and it’s police are British trained and they know who committed this murder and having thought more about it I would have to reason that it was paid for by organised crime. The team really didn’t do as badly as might be supposed, they got in, killed their target and got out again. And it would seem they have totally vanished from the counties they went to. Where they did really badly was on the job itself. How could they not know that there were so many CCTV cameras? Sabi’s idea that they will all end with the fishes is a little too TV movie for me. They were well trained enough and coordinated enough to suggest that they were trained together and have worked together before and that makes them too expensive to just get rid of them.

Mossad? No, quite simply they would not have gone into Dubai, they have far too much to lose and far too little to gain. And if they had we wouldn’t now be reading about it. No, they are not good guys, they have killed and will kill again and they are like any other intelligence group in this respect. Though they do tend to be very good at what they do. I doubt we know a fraction of what they do and I doubt anybody ever will.

The only people who have been caught are two Hamas operatives that Jordan handed over to Dubai, sorry Sabi but I must have missed where you found an excuse for this. So the only really hard evidence that anybody has got is two Hamas men. Hamas men working with Mossad? Strange how the elephant in the room is being ignored while Mossad, of whom there is no trace figures so highly. al-Mabhouh was an arms buyer for Hamas and who is to say that he hasn’t been scimming a little off the top, Hamas finds out but given the fragmented nature of that group and it’s never ending infighting maybe they couldn’t just remove him. How much better to kill him and have Israel take the heat for it and a good way to do that would be to use British passports of people living in Israel, not something that Mossad (or any other intelligence agency) would ever have been so stupid to do. My money is on Hamas with Iranian help.

Given what we do know, hard facts, my guess fits better that the emotive Israel must be guilty guessing team. But then I am doing no more than they are doing, guessing.

Grafton,

Exactly. We are all making suppositons. However, I think the supposition that you, others and I have raised about it being unlikely Mossad was involved do indeed make more sense than suppositions suggesting they were involved.

stevecpfc,

I may be incorrect here. However, it seems to me that you are more interested in taking aim at Israel in general, and using sweeping generalizations to do it, instead of actually understanding that it really does not make much sense for Mossad to have been involved in this incident.

It seems Hamas is blaming the Palestinian Authority and the PA is blaming Hamas. Although the next day Hamas said they did not want to accuse anyone except Israel.

From the Telegraph:

Palestinian Authority police spokesman, General Adnan al-Dameeri, told AFP in Ramallah that Palestinian security authorities "confirmed information that two Hamas officers ... were involved in the killing of Mabhuh."

On Monday Hamas official Ayman Taha told Al-Arabiya television that the pair, who were arrested in Jordan and handed over to Dubai, worked for the Palestinian Authority and took part in Mabhuh's assassination.

On Tuesday Taha told Al-Arabiya Hamas "did not want to accuse anyone" apart from Israel.

grafton and kinniku, the British and German governments are now demanding answers from Israel and Israel itself says it believes its securitys ervices are to blame.

kinniku, watch the breakingn ews on either BBC, CNN or FOX and see the latest news where Israeli politicians are admitting it must be their own Mossad services.

stevecpfc,

I checked BBC where it says Israel denies involvement. In the same article a former Mossad officer suggests he thinks it looks like a Mossad operation. Although the officers opinion certainly is interesting. That is hardly an official admission of anything so far.

kinniku, watch it mate. The online site is always delayed especially in UK night time.

Them what done it may get done this time due to their inept disguises.

stevecpfc,

I just checked Fox and CNN as well. I cannot seem to find the story to which you referred. While Mossad is certainly being accused. I have found nothing on any site so far, including looking at a UK Times article updated a few minutes ago, to indicate Israeli officials have admitted anything.

Kinniku, you shall see it unfold before your eyes my friend, though of course the denials of Mossad wil be accepted as fact by you and your friends regrdless of the evidence.

How do you think peoples passport numbers could be found without official gov help? This type of killings happened before when a certain gentlman had high office in Israel.

stevecpfc,

So, in other words, you were mistaken when you said above 'Israeli politicians are admitting it must be their own Mossad services'? I accept your admission of your mistake.

Again, we have a situation involving the passports of dual citizens of Israel, which would be more likely to be known in advance by Israel more than by other countries. If we are talking about identity theft, then it is certainly possible that the theives had no idea that the passports they lifted would belong to people who also had Israeli citizenship. More importantly, it seems unlikely Mossad would take the obvious chance that such passports would be easily linked to Israel. Again, it just doesn't make much sense when looking at past operations of the Mossad.

However, I do appreciate your admitting you made a mistake.

kinniku, i didn`t admit amistake. The British and German governments are pressing Israel for information why its citizens names were used by the Israeli escurity services. France is yet to ask.

The only governemnt that wants Hamas figures "taken out" is Israel and what a surprise these peole were using fake passports of dual nationality Israelis. Now, how could someone garner these peoples details unless through official channels. It doesn`t take much common sense to realise this is Mossad killing where they left behind evidence.

stevecpfc,

Well, maybe you should consider admitting you made a mistake since your suggestion that 'Israeli politicians are admitting it must be their own Mossad services' was incorrect.

I am well aware of and it has already been discussed that Mossad has been brought up as a suspected source of the killing. However, you suggested that Israeli officials have admitted that that is the case and you went so far as to suggest that this was broadcast on various news outlets. They have not admitted any such thing and no admissions have been broadcasted anywhere as of yet. As such, you are mistaken.

I have admitted Israel certainly had motive. However, they are not the only ones to have motive. Hamas is also in conflict with the Palestinian Authority. It is also possible that organized crime was involved. However, you seem to be ignoring that fact that two Palestinians were arrested in Jordan in connection with the assassination and are said to be members of Hamas. Although Hamas claims they are members of the Palestinian Authority.

As to who else could get these people's details, identity theft happens all the time and, I would guess that most of the time Mossad is not involved.

Just a few thoughts about those who believe it takes government help to find passport numbers.

I can think of so many different types of people that can do it, from the airline counter employee to the travel agency, immigration proxy company, duty free sales booth.

Not to mention the places all around the visited country where you let people have a copy of your official ID, be it passport or alien card (hint: check out your "gaijin card", you might find your passport number on it).

With the latest IT advances like e-ticket, I would bet that half the people working at the airport can know your passport number.

But is it sufficient to forge another one ? That french guy seems to suggest it might be, although clumsily. Scary. To all the paranoids out there, think about it next time you get asked 'May I have a copy ?'. Seen a man trying to do that in the US while renting a car. He might still be at the counter, arguing.

Back to the rest of the discussion, I wont put my money on anyone here, but this all looks so much like a cheap movie. Maybe the newest Ocean scenario ? How interesting they were 11 of them. Add those other two and here's your ocean'13.

Honestly, if Mossad did it, they made it in a 3-tier way. The current headlines people being the bait to draw the crowd's attention to Mossad in a very conspicuous way, discrediting the Mossad theory entirely. Which will lead to other people being blamed, while the real perpetrators are never to be caught. Reminds me of Agatha Christie's Towards Zero, great novel.

A spy novel-worthy police narrative

I'll wait for the movie~

The video the police put together is pretty neat. It's over 27 minutes, but worth a watch if you like this stuff. The issue isn't that the team was sloppy per se, I think they simply underestimated the Dubai authorities.

They were wearing disguises and obstructing their faces at the target hotel. The issue is they were able to track them to other hotels where they changed appearance. From there they could cross reference them to the airport. The amount of CCTV footage they would have had to go through would be staggering. It's quite likely they've invested in some western technology to assist.

If you look at package you'll also notice that at least four members of the surveillance team were never identified. They consisted of two man/woman teams. Wired has the video and quotes from former Mossad Operative Victor Ostrovsky in the Threatlevel blog.

As far as the Mossad? It's Occum's Razor. Who else is going to have a fairly large western assassination team hit this guy?

The only governemnt that wants Hamas figures "taken out" is Israel

I wouldn't be so sure. The United States, Saudi Arabia (Sunni vs Shia Iran), Lebanon, Russia (arms, drug deal gone wrong) even Argentina (retaliation for Iranian proxy bombing of Jewish cultural center there) could be players here...