Dutch prosecutors call for life terms for MH17 suspects

Soldiers identify their targets before pulling the trigger. This was horrendously irresponsible murder. Anyone trained enough to fire the missile should have been able to recognize a civilian flight in a well known international flight corridor. Ukrainian military craft would not have been nearly that high up or in that southeast direction.

The fact that Ukraine didn't close its airspace over the war zone at that time is a crime in itself, someone should be held responsible for that.

Is this right? @Asakaze says that it was Ukraine that shot down the plane. Is he wrong? Was it Russian armed separatists and "volunteer" troops from Russian armed forces after all?

I have tried to educate on this subject but some will just not believe the evidence no matter what.

The courts will continue their process and the accused will continue to be shielded in Russia from facing justice. A tragic byproduct of war is death of the innocent.

The fact that Ukraine didn't close its airspace over the war zone at that time is a crime in itself, someone should be held responsible for that.

No it isn't. The crew and the airline were responsible for flying in that area, and no country forced them to fly through Ukraine. They could have, indeed, should have, avoided the area, just like many other airlines were. but none of this really changes who is ultimately responsible for shooting down the plane, separatist fighters armed with Russian gear.

@Peter14

Asakaze says that it was Ukraine that shot down the plane

And I keep saying that. The Dutch court for all these years stubbornly refused to look into any evidence the Russians were eager to present, the Dutch just were cherry-picking facts that suited only their script. How you call a court where only one side is allowed to present its evidence? Farce, that it is. The most interested party, the Malaysians, do not trust this farcial show:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48702115

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-malaysia-idUSKCN1TL0OW

@Asakaze

The Dutch court for all these years stubbornly refused to look into any evidence the Russians were eager to present,

Not true, some "evidence" was studied early on in the investigation and determined by experts and even ordinary web users, to be manufactured and fake, thus tainting anything else offered as "evidence" by Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30064374

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/russia-claims-fresh-proof-ukraine-downed-flight-mh17/

Russian cowboys' handiwork.

So often do unnecessary conflicts get started by someone out of control.

@Peter14

and even ordinary web users

And even ordinary users were able to see all the discrepancies in the Dutch court "investigation". Anyway, try to tell it to the Malaysian prime minister, I think he is much better informed to make up his mind about the baloney the Dutch produce.

@Asakaze

Anyway, try to tell it to the Malaysian prime minister, I think he is much better informed to make up his mind about the baloney the Dutch produce.

He ignores the evidence to placate Russia. Malaysia understands that Russia will never admit it is responsible and as such will never pay damages. Rather than damage relations with Russia it keeps silent. What Malaysia also has not done is accuse Ukraine of shooting down MH17 and as you say, he would have accessed all the available evidence. Whatever Russia is saying is also not believed by Malaysia.

I put my faith in the Dutch and Australian investigators who do not care either way which nation did it, they only want to find those people who are guilty to face justice.

@Peter14

He ignores the evidence to placate Russia

Any proof of that speculation?

Malaysia understands that Russia will never admit it is responsible and as such will never pay damages

It rather Ukraine who will never admit any resposibility and will not pay damages. When they shot down a Russian passenger jet over the Black Sea in 2001 the Ukrainians simply refused to admit it and pay.

@Asakaze

He ignores the evidence to placate Russia

Any proof of that speculation?

By your own words you say the Malaysian Prime Minister will not blame Russia. Clearly he ignores evidence accepted by the courts and most nations. If you need his testimony perhaps you can ask him for it directly. Ignoring accepted evidence in the face of a militarily more powerful nation is not unheard of and fits Malaysian tactics of not rocking the boat in any sphere.

It rather Ukraine who will never admit any resposibility and will not pay damages. When they shot down a Russian passenger jet over the Black Sea in 2001 the Ukrainians simply refused to admit it and pay.

Compensation to Israeli citizens

On 20 November 2003, an ex gratia compensation agreement was signed between the governments of Ukraine and Israel.[5] It was later ratified by the relatives[clarification needed] of the victims. In addition to compensation issues, the agreement stated that "Ukraine is not legally responsible for the accident that occurred to the plane and free of any obligations regarding it."[24] Commenting on the agreement, Gen. Oleksandr Kuz'muk, the former minister of defense who lost his job after the accident,[25] told media that "the payments were a humane action, not the admission of guilt."[citation needed] Later as a deputy prime minister in the government of Viktor Yanukovych, Kuzmuk denied that the Ukrainian military was responsible for the shoot-down, although Ukraine agreed to pay damages.[26]

Compensation to Russian citizens

Ukraine agreed to pay the families of each of the 38 Russian victims the sum of $200,000, the same amount that it had paid to the families of the 40 Israeli victims. The settlement was ratified by the Russian parliament in May 2004 and President Vladimir Putin signed it into law in June 2004.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Do you bother doing any research at all or just make up lies to suit your arguments? America first reported it was downed by a S-200 from Ukraine, and Russia initially would not listen. They altered that thought after further investigations.

Russia should learn from Ukrainian behavior and own up to their "accident" in shooting down MH17, and pay compensation. It wont, it does not have the decency that Ukraine showed for their error.

Pity.

@Peter14

He ignores the evidence to placate Russia....Whatever Russia is saying is also not believed by Malaysia

Again, the same question you carefully avoid to answer: any facts to support your florid imagination?

By your own words you say the Malaysian Prime Minister will not blame Russia

Do not twist my words to your fantasies (or do not twist facts as the Dutch do). My words: he does not trust the farce of the Dutch "trial". You think you better then prime minister?

Compensation to Israeli citizens

Ukraine agreed to pay only after it was pressured by the Israeli government. Initially the Ukrainians flatly refused to admit anything, then when presented with facts the Ukrainian president at that time, Kuchma, said "So what, big deal, everybody makes mistakes, so forget it". And only when pressured by the Israelis the Ukrainians finally agreed to pay.

Russia should learn from Ukrainian behavior and own up to their "accident"

Do you bother doing any research at all or just make up lies to suit your arguments? Read carefully even your own post:

Gen. Oleksandr Kuz'muk, the former minister of defense who lost his job after the accident,[25] told media that "the payments were a humane action, not the admission of guilt."[citation needed] Later as a deputy prime minister in the government of Viktor Yanukovych, Kuzmuk denied that the Ukrainian military was responsible for the shoot-down

And you suggest to learn humanity from such attitude?? Pathetic.

The claims that Russia invaded Ukraine make Trump's claim that the hurricane was predicted to hit the state he said it would seem reasonable. Both the Russian and the precoup Ukrainian military shared weapons, ammunition, equipment and uniform suppliers. Russian troops shared bases with the Ukrainian forces, with the full agreement of the democratically elected government of Ukraine.

Of course people wearing uniforms that greatly resembled Russian uniforms left the shared bases in Ukraine, because they were members of the Ukrainian military heading out, some to support the democratically elected President, some to support the coup.

And the forensic evidence that points to the Ukrainian rebels (who, after all, enjoyed American support and the sense of impunity that entails) rather than the folks defending democracy has been as vigorously rejected as the forensic evidence (repeatedly certified by the IAEA inspectors) that points to the Iranian nuclear program being purely an energy and medical/industrial isotope program.

@Asakaze

the Ukrainians simply refused to admit it and pay.

You lied. They paid. You wanted to make them out as inhuman, uncaring and said they didnt pay.

There is nothing on the internet or anywhere that shows the Malaysian Prime Minister believes the Russian "evidence" against Ukraine or that he believes the Ukrainian forces were responsible.

Prove me wrong!

any facts to support your florid imagination?

I gave you a fact you want me to produce a signed document? The evidence has been provided and proven in court. He "chooses" not to accuse Russia. That is your proof.

Do not twist my words to your fantasies

Do not get angry when your words support my arguments.

Paying compensation to the victims family is an admission of guilt. But it is legal maouvering to state it is not an admission of guilt. It is exactly that, or you dont pay a cent. You know this but it will do nothing to support your position so you argue. They were training. There was an accident and people died. It was not a planned assault on a plane. They were aiming for a target drone.

Russian forces shot down MH17 thinking it was a Ukrainian plane. They did it by accident. It was not a planned assault on MH17. But they lack the courage to admit it. It is unfortunate they lack both courage and the humanity to admit their accidental shooting down of MH17. Your continued defense does not have the same excuse. It is frankly very poor taste and shows a complete lack of morality.

Accidents happen in war. When weapons of death and destruction are let loose, people die. This accident could have been avoided, but more, it could have been an event to settle down the violence that escalated. If Russia had simply told the truth and not tried to blame people not responsible it could have taken the lead in reducing the conflict. By trying to hide and deflect what it did, it made the situation worse.

You will not change your position. I will not change my position. Tell all the lies you feel you need to.

The court makes it's verdict. Charged in abstention the four charged can never leave Russia again.

In a few decades the truth will be revealed as happens with state secrets and events that occur during war. We will be long gone when Russia finally admits it's people were responsible and apologizes.

The court in neither Russian or Ukrainian. The court is conducted by the nation with the majority of casualties and does not side with one nation over another on this issue they want truth and justice.

Dismiss it if you wish. Many will not. Their findings come after careful scientific investigation into the wreckage and the evidence gathered and presented to it for consideration and years of study by numerous experts from many nations. You seem to judge the outcome based on it solely not being in Russia's favor. I dont care who you or I think did it. The court will decide, not us.

baloney the Dutch produce.

You show no interest in truth or judicial proceedure, you have already made up your mind that Russia could never be guilty, just because it is Russia. Not a good defense.

You show no interest in truth or judicial proceedure

Honest discussions have no place with rabid nationalists.

"No Russia troops in Crimea" - Asakaze circa 2014