East European leaders in war of words as migrants pour across borders

“We left Turkey 10 days ago. The trip was very dangerous for the kids. I decided to leave Syria because I want my kids to have a comfortable life, to study,” she said.

As we have seen said before and as we have seen misconstrued and misrepresented statistics used in a false attempt to prove it, some people are about to accuse her of actually being from Albania and/or just wanting to live off welfare. How dare she not condemn her children to a listless life in a temporary tent city in Turkey where they will get no education save an education in crime, and then have to return to a gutted out Syria where they get no education?

“We need to get to the negotiation. That is what we’re looking for and we hope Russia and Iran, and any other countries with influence, will help to bring about that, because that’s what is preventing this crisis from ending,”

Now the US is talking about negotiations? Might this not have been a good idea before weaponizing various sides and inciting mass destruction and social disruption in the whole region? The US should own the refugee crisis it created and accept most of the people fleeing their homelands. Money to support them should come from the military industry.

The route they need to find is back where they came from. The people who live in failed and dysfunctional parts of the world have to either find the spine to fix themselves or learn to put up with it. I am glad Europe seems to have come to its senses. Germany and Sweden made it known that they will welcome refugees, but they did not do this by evaluating refugees where they are and were; instead, they motivated thousands and thousands to migrate to their countries creating not only hardship for those traveling but for those countries between them and the origination points.

Some Australian style enforcement may do it otherwise the floodgate is open.

@ Peace Out. Someone else gets to pay for the "comfortable life and education" she desires.

Someone else gets to pay for the "comfortable life and education" she desires.

@mazzda I bet she will work a job if she can find one. See, that is the thing about being a permanent resident in Germany or Sweden. You CAN work. You can't work as a refugee in Turkey. Yet, they get criticized for not staying in a place they won't be allowed to work?

The people who live in failed and dysfunctional parts of the world have to either find the spine to fix themselves or learn to put up with it.

@Crazyjoe Yeah. They should stay home and protect themselves from poison gas by wetting handkerchiefs and breathing through them, use their carving knives to attack ISIS militants armed with automatic rifles, and throw rocks at the Assad government jets dropping bombs on them. Perhaps they could use the doors of burned out cars as shields? Heck, why don't you do us all a favor, and go to Turkey and train them how to do these things as you live among them in their joyous and comfortable tent villages you were earlier suggesting they just stay in?

I bet she will work a job if she can find one. See, that is the thing about being a permanent resident in Germany or Sweden. You CAN work.

Sorry but there are so few jobs for migrants in these countries that they may as well not be allowed to work. The unemployment rate for refugees in Sweden is hovering around 80%.

I have no doubt that most of these people have sincere dreams of learning the local language, finding a great job, working hard and contributing to society but the statistics tell us that the odds are entirely stacked against them. I think people have a right to worry about who picks up the tab when the high paying dream jobs don't materilise and the children end up dropping out of school because the language barrier made education in Sweden or Germany too difficult.

The unemployment rate for refugees in Sweden is hovering around 80%.

@M3M3M3 And where do you get that information? I cannot find such information specific to refugees, but rather, immigrants and refugees are the same thing in Sweden. And among them, I could find no numbers near 80 percent.

I read that employment rates were 60 percent for non-European immigrants, which would put unemployment at 40 percent. I read that in an article called "Sweden’s ugly immigration problem" by Margaret Wente, and that was printed Sept. 11, 2015.

And I am going to say this clearly: I am getting pretty damned sick of seeing numbers with no citations, or going into the citations and find the numbers totally misused and misinterpreted. The lack of credibility and responsibility is going way beyond ridiculous.

Any Swedish person can tell you that immigration failed becoming the no 1 rape country in europe is quite a feat . The immigrants who came to sweden were even suprised there were no jobs or housing for them even though their goverment told them it was ok.

I also find it hilarious that these people want a safe haven but dash right trough safe countries in favor of the countries with the most generous wellfare system in europe AKA Germany and Sweden. Because lets face it they became Illigal Migrants the moment they forced their way into europe while leaving the real refugees to their fate in Turkey lebanon and others while the rich gulf states shirk their muslim brothers any saftey.

M3M3M3

Your brain will find information to support (if not quite validate) your own hypothesis. This is perfectly natural, and I thank you for your opinion and contribution to the discussion.

Could you share the Swedish unemployment data source, and why do we not have a link for Germany, if indeed there are:

so few jobs for migrants in these countries that they may as well not be allowed to work(?)

I would like to see the Croatian and Serbian armies tear that fence down. Lets how Hungary react then. They do not deserve to be in the EU.

@Peace Out

"I am getting pretty damned sick of seeing numbers with no citations, or going into the citations and find the numbers totally misused and misinterpreted"

Me too, But first some background: France and some other European countries prohibit the collection of demographic stats based on things like religion, which is pretty convenient for, ahem, certain groups. I daresay the immigration policymakers as well benefit by keeping the general public in a state of ignorance. NOn-disclosure tends to lead to misinterpretation.

Telling the truth on this matter also tends to destroy careers in Europe. That was the case with Danish psychologist NIcolai Sennels, when he published his findings after a stint working in Denmark's Muslim-filled prison system as a social worker. He was fired.

But independent people Stephen Caldwell and Robert S. Keiken have done some pretty compelling research, and the findings are quite shocking. Some of the stats I've cited have come from these people, in case you were wondering.

Read up and be informed!

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/christopher-caldwell-on-muslim-integration-it-s-much-better-if-things-are-discussed-openly-a-668750.html

Some Australian style enforcement may do it otherwise the floodgate is open. yep Australia has shown the only way is to turn them back early before the make the journey. I can remember many of these EU countries commenting that Australias policies were severe and they were taking the moral high ground on the issue (arms open) certainly didnt take long for the to have a change of heart did it.

I also find it hilarious

@Zodiac There is NOTHING hilarious about this crisis. Just for you saying that, I have already given you a label I doubt you will ever be able shake off in my mind.

that these people want a safe haven but dash right trough safe countries in favor of the countries with the most generous wellfare system in europe AKA Germany and Sweden.

Did you also notice that those "safe" countries only offer temporary asylum and no chance of employment, land ownership, a future, education or anything above minimal health care?

Yeah, they decided to try for Germany or Sweden where they can get permanent residency, maybe a job, one day a shop of their own and land, and meanwhile their kids can get an education and grow up in a place less crime ridden than the tent cities they would be in in those "safe" countries.

Any Swedish person can tell you that immigration failed becoming the no 1 rape country in europe is quite a feat .

Displace any group of people from any country in the world and stuff like that is going to happen. Stability takes time.

while leaving the real refugees to their fate in Turkey lebanon and others

You have zero basis to declare the refugees no longer refugees. There is no definition of refugee that requires them to stay in an unfavorable country that will ship them straight back to their war gutted country with nothing the minute the shooting stops.

while the rich gulf states shirk their muslim brothers any saftey.

Pretty freaking far from the only nations not stepping up to the plate. America is dithering while at least the Gulf states have decency to just say no when they mean no.

I cannot say I am surprised though that people like yourself will lay blame anywhere you can but America's destabilizing of the region with Gulf War II.

M3M3M3 concerns are valid, mass migration, an exodus of biblical proportions will only herald further tragic mass drowning of families struggling to reach the West is assorted death traps courtesy of ruthless people smugglers. All 27 countries must follow the UK government lead and focus on processing asylum seekers at source, within the UN designated refugee camps.

All current migrants encamped in Croatia, Greece, Hungary, Slovenia, Serbia for their own safety must be repatriated to 'third country' middle eastern refugee facilities to await processing. International support in respect to enhanced aid programmes must be upgraded in recognition to the tragic crisis at hand.

If M3M3M3 doesn't mind me butting in, I would like to provide, current reports and stats. Without doubt cultural integration in language skills and the acceptance of liberal western life style choices and values continues to present a challenge, ultimately responsible for extremist radicalization, as religion and culture collides having a direct impact on attainment to education and employment opportunities. Muslim Public Affairs Council and the Muslim Public Affairs Committee EU have been stressing these issues constantly and consistently since the 7/7 London Bombings.

Firstly Sweden, humbly please pay particular attention to Improving language training for immigrants, enhancing the skills, integration of disadvantaged groups....

http://www.oecd.org/eco/surveys/Sweden-2015-overview.pdf

Next Germany, again attendant in education, employment, and housing will be paramount in migrant integration.

I am afraid the German government and the EU commission, must take the lion's share of the blame for the reckless endangerment and inevitable death toll due to encouraging an 'open door' policy.

https://data.oecd.org/germany.htm

I will be in procession of the full infinitive OECD immigration and refugee report to be published on the 22nd September. I will post when thread topics allow. If poster and commentators would like analysis on Sweden or German stats or overbearing terminology and jargon I can assist.

I am afraid the German government and the EU commission, must take the lion's share of the blame for the reckless endangerment and inevitable death toll due to encouraging an 'open door' policy.

@itsonlyrocknroll As if all would be well if Germany had just shut its doors years ago. The hell of it is we are all damned if we do and damned if we don't.

I think if there is any sin here, its insufficient preparation for what was about to come as a result of the open door policy, not the policy itself.

But for all we know, the policy is averting a genocide of Syrians in countries adjacent to Syria.

I doubt there is anyone here, including myself, who could really tell us how things would be today if Germany had never had this open door policy, whether for better or worse. All I can say for sure is, regardless, there were going to be problems.

Hi Peace Out,

My 80% number comes from a specific Swedish government report looking at refugees and immigrants in the Somali community, of which only 21% were found to be in work. I'm making the assumption that the Somali numbers are likely to be mirrored in any new Syrian and Afghan populations since these groups will also find language and cultural integration to be difficult and may also face racial and religious discrimination from local people (unlike other immigrants from Eastern Europe for example).

Of course, meaningful unemployment numbers are somewhat hard to come by since much will depend on how many years a refugee has been in the country and how easily they integrate based on their ethnic and religious background. The numbers are also quite unreliable since government stops counting people if they haven't been actively looking for work. This Swedish study simply looked at who had a job and who didn't rather than whether they met the technical definition of being unemployed.

I'm personally interested in Sweden so I'll have to admit that I'm not familiar with the German data. Here is a link to the official report so you can see that I'm not just making it up (but of course it's only in Swedish, sorry).

http://www.regeringen.se/rapporter/2012/11/framtidskommissionen---underlagsrapport-somalier-pa-arbetsmarknaden---har-sverige-nagot-att-lara/

Here is a news story about the report (maybe you can translate with Google? The 21 percent number is in the box at the bottom):

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/bara-var-femte-somalier-har-jobb-i-sverige

.

@itsonlyrocknroll

Thanks very much for the info and links, I'll have a read through them today. I agree with what you said and I look forward to any new info you get in the report.

Hi, Peace Out, I applaud your humanitarian instinct to highlight the short comings of Western European governments failure to act sooner.

Immigration in respect to the acceptance of migrants within communities is dependent on cultural integration, there are successful examples in the UK, ties between Britain and India have produced a vibrant multicultural community, influencing Friday night cuisine irrevocably. Western liberal lifestyles, in relation to individual freedom of choice presents a huge challenges to cultural integration for Muslims within Western democracies.

An example is the disadvantages and plight of third and fourth generation descendants of Turkish immigrants in Germany.

Equality and access to higher education to aid socially mobility is paramount to prevent disillusionment and subsequently estrangement from society, the breeding ground for radical indoctrination. These waves of humanity fleeing the terror of war and atrocities committed on a daily basis need a long term solution that irradiates extremism at source and provides the foundations for these refugees to return to their homes and communities ravaged by war.

Proportioning blame for this tragedy needs to be subject of a international court or tribunal. In the mean time there will be more atrocities and bloodshed as the truth dawns on the global community that a international force considerable greater than before returns to Iraq and Syria to irradiate ISIL. Be prepared for internment and more death and destruction in obtaining this goal.

Hi M3M3M3, many thanks there probably worse to come. it is heart wrenching to watch children and families drowning. There is no direct solution to this crisis, the longer the door stays open the more bodies will be washed up.

@Peace Out There is an element of 'give me that for free and forever" in all this. The Western world can solve all my problems it only you let me get at the stuff.

@PeaceOut

Speaking of sources, care to provide a citation for your repeated claim that Turkey plans to ship all of their Syrian refugees back into Syria while the war is still going on? Secondly I'm quite sure that the 'first safe country' concept is a part of international refugee law. Regardless, even if they're economically disadvantaged in Turkey or these Baltic countries, you do realize that by that criteria literally hundreds of millions, potentially even billions of people could qualify for asylum in Germany and Scandinavia? After all, I'm quite sure failed states like Somalia create far more economically disadvantageous conditions than living in a refugee camp without work but with food and water.

My 80% number comes from a specific Swedish government report looking at refugees and immigrants in the Somali community

Somalia was a failed state with the third highest infant mortality rate in the world (Syria was 103rd). There's no educational data for the country, but a 2006 estimate shows 49% of children Somali working, compared to Syria's 4%, with the population going to school for an average (both male and female) of 12 years.

Somalia's 2010 GDP per capita (PPP) was estimated at USD600, while Syria's was USD5,200, higher than China, Jamaica, Jordan or Thailand.

So, the comparison with Swedish Somalis is weak (I've only ever met one in the 35,000 there, driving my taxi, and have enjoyed wonderful interactions with Somalis elsewhere).

How about suggesting to David Cameron, @M3M3M3, that (Mohammed) Mo Farah be returned to Mogadishu, now that he can obviously support himself?

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/so.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sy.html http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?order=wbapi_data_value_2010+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-first&sort=asc

I often give children three or four pieces of candy after I finish teaching English at a kindergarten. Sometimes my students want an extra piece for their brother or sister or friend. Sometimes I can spare the extra sweets and sometimes I can't. On the rare instances when I cannot, I tell the children that they have three or four pieces and to give one of them to their friends. Suddenly the compassion vanishes. This is cute when dealing with three year olds but irritating when reading comments by some posters who seem to have no problem giving away other peoples' resources.

Speaking of sources, care to provide a citation for your repeated claim that Turkey plans to ship all of their Syrian refugees back into Syria while the war is still going on?

@Illyas Can you first quote me making the claim? Cause what I said was, and quite clearly, was that asylum in Turkey was temporary and would end as soon as the civil war did. So not during the war, but after. You read much? And guess what? The ruin in Syria won't be reversed the instant the war ends. There will be empty shops, likely no power, no water, food etc.

If you had anything else to say, sorry. After that false and utterly ridiculous allegation I already had enough of your post and stopped reading. If you want more out of me you might start your next reply to me owning your mistake.

German and Swedish women birth rate are lower than immigrants. Due to hand outs from social welfare, many immigrants will be encouraged to have more kids. Within a few decades, Europe demographic factor will be changed favor to the immigrants.

New generation of Scandinavian nations and Germany will be speaking Arabic. New generation will demand the Halal certified Beef. Inter marriage have forced Christian spouses to convert to their spouses religion.

Native Europeans will become minority and surrendering their lands to the immigrants. EU will change the name as United Islamic Federation of Continent..

Europe has been culturally and radically transformed. Angela Merkel have not learnt the Trojan horses of gifts which have destroyed the city of Troy. Native Europeans will be gradually extinct as Dinosaurs.

Within a few decades, Europe demographic factor will be changed favor to the immigrants.

@Nathaw I am guessing math is not your strong point. For the balance to tip it will take several decades, not just a few, so nearly 100 years, for the balance to tip. By that time, I bet a huge chunk of the third generation will have had enough of that sky god manure and won't even speak but two words of their grand parents' native tongue.

@Peace Out

Except once you actually do the math and note the following: (1) it won't just be a hundred thousand or a million - with Merkel's open invitation, tens of millions of Africans and Middle Easterners (including people from Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Eritrea, etc) will now want to come, NOT just Syrians, (2) these people won't just bring themselves but will be allowed to bring their entire extended families under EU asylum rules, and (3) these people have far higher birth rates than native Europeans, ensuring that Christian Europe will inevitably die as it averages ~1.5 (below replacement rate) compared to the Middle East and Africa's 4-6.

@Peace Out: Very Well you can tell the rape victims that is just a matter of time that they will not get raped.

But you seem hellbent on telling people what they should think and feel they have a label for that too and I blame America for that plenty for this mess they created but Russia is stepping up to the plate to do what the US is too dumb to do.

The present and the future of Europe:

"A shocking report from the British government has concluded that a borough council in the city of Rotherham was “not fit for purpose” because it apparently covered up years of assaults by Muslim Pakistani gangs on hundreds of children, mostly young white females. Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/02/muslim-rape-gang-cover-up-exposed/#2tiWyWllSJtTGBsp.99"

Sweden the rape capital of the West: "In 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants."

In Denmark:" In Denmark, the state's official statistical office, Statistics Denmark, revealed that in 2010 more than half of convicted rapists had an immigrant background.

In Norway: "In 2010, a spokesperson for the Oslo Police Department stated that every case of assault rapes in Oslo in the years 2007, 2008 and 2009 was committed by a non-Western immigrant".

Denmark A study of crime statistics published in 2014 found that among males between the age of 20 and 24 descendants of non-Western immigrants had a crime rate 2.6 times greater than those of Danish origin.

Finland According to official statistics, 21.0% of rapes have been committed by foreigners in Finland.[13] Foreigners comprise 2.2% of the population

France A 2006 study found that the share of immigrants has a positive and significant impact on the crime rate, confirming that a larger share of immigrants is associated with a higher crime rate

Germany Immigrants in Germany are overrepresented in crime statistics. In Berlin, young male immigrants are three times more likely to commit violent crimes than their German peers.

Greece Official statistics show that immigrants are responsible for about half of the criminal activity in Greece.

Netherlands Non-"white Dutch" youths are more likely to have contact with the police and be convicted of a serious crime than their "white Dutch" compatriots. More than half of Moroccan-Dutch youths aged 18 to 24 years in Rotterdam have been in trouble with the police for the suspicion of a crime.

Norway According to a 2011 report by Statistics Norway in 2009 first generation immigrants from Africa were three times more likely than a Norwegian without immigrant parents to be convicted of a felony, while Somali immigrants in particular were 4.4 times more likely to be convicted of a felony than a Norwegian without immigrant parents. Similarly, Iraqi and Pakistanis were found to have rates of conviction for felonies greater than Norwegian without immigrant parents by a factor of 3 and 2.6 respectively.

Spain The rates of crimes committed by immigrants are substantially higher than nationals.

Switzerland In Switzerland, 69.7% of prison population had no Swiss citizenship, compared to 22.1% of total resident population (as of 2008). ".....while immigrants from Angola, Nigeria and Algeria had a crime rate of above 600% of that of Swiss population"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime.

I could keep posting but I guess most of you do get the picture and understand what these million "refugees" going to Germany will mean for Europe.

@SenseNotSoCommon

Somalia was a failed state with the third highest infant mortality rate in the world (Syria was 103rd). There's no educational data for the country, but a 2006 estimate shows 49% of children Somali working, compared to Syria's 4%, with the population going to school for an average (both male and female) of 12 years.

I agree that there are some big differences between Syria and Somalia but I disagree that education alone will make much of a difference in reducing unemployment in this latest wave of refugees, at least for the first few years. No matter how brilliant or educated a refugee is, it's unlikely to help them find a job if they can't even communicate the most basic ideas in the local language.

The first step to employment and self sufficiency is obviously language and integration, so in that sense the most educated Syrian is in the exact same position as the most uneducated Somali. The concern is the sheer numbers arriving within such a short time span, where you have thousands of additional refugees but no additional language teachers or social workers to help them.

(1) it won't just be a hundred thousand or a million - with Merkel's open invitation, tens of millions of Africans and Middle Easterners (including people from Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Eritrea, etc) will now want to come, NOT just Syrians

@Illyas You seem to have a gift for misrepresentation. Nobody said it would be ONLY Syrians And as there are only about 18 million Syrians in the world and 742 million Europeans, obviously it would take hundreds of years for the Syrians to do it alone.

As for your tens of millions (in what time frame?), you need to give up your xenophobic panic attack. Its not going to happen. It took four years of brutal civil war to get this wave of Syrian refugees started. And they are not arriving via jet plane with first class seats. People are literally dying on the way. Even in the darkest, dung holes of Africa, most inhabitants are not willing to take that risk. They have a home, food, friends and family right where they are. Plus, the human is generally too lazy for such a trek.

Plus, no European country consists of completely blind people. They will close the doors before it could possibly come to that.

@Zodiac

But you seem hellbent on telling people what they should think and feel

No, mostly I lay down facts and reason and point out flaws in people's wildest statements. Nice attempt to turn the tables though as you continue your biased diatribes. NOT.

you can tell the rape victims that is just a matter of time that they will not get raped.

Tell you what. How about you tell me why the rape rates in Sweden are so high. You seem to think its all or mostly the results of immigrants/refugees. I got that right?

@Peace Out you have it indeed right one google search and your there but since you are awe struck by my awesomeness resorted to ad hominem attacks let me google that for you http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sweden+rape+statistics+ And you havent posted one source or facts other than wild trolling and acusations,one piece of advice sparky do back up facts with sources.

@Zodiac Your link took me nowhere. But yes, I have put Sweden, rape, and statistics into a search engine. And what I found is well, something you will find out as soon as you answer a simple question.

And you havent posted one source or facts

Scroll up. Peace Out Sep. 20, 2015 - 10:26AM JST

There I posted the exact name of an article, plus the author and the date, which works better than a link. Then I posted the employment rate for non-European immigrants. Feeling busted?

And look, I asked you a simple question. A very simple question. Where is your answer? Here it is again:

How about you tell me why the rape rates in Sweden are so high. You seem to think its all or mostly the results of immigrants/refugees. I got that right?

Well, yes or no? Are you not answering because you know perfectly well you are going to get busted again? As I said at the beginning of this post, you answer that and you will hear about what I found.

@Everyone MikeRowave posted a source for his long post that was from WND which is the World Net Daily, a far, far and I mean FAR right White Nationalist website which would be more aptly named the White Nationalist Daily and I don't think that alliteration is a coincidence. Yes, its even worse than Faux News. His post has 2 thumbs up. Its time to wake up.

Its not the mainstream media that is lying to us this time. Well, at least they are not the worst offender.

So many American right wing and Japanese Nationalist folk on this forum. Seems u both get along really well.