Europe crafts debt deal as banks take Greek losses

Maybe the Chinese?? Indians?? Saudis?? Can rescue the Europeans from themselves IMHO.

Wow, the Germans must really be having "buyer's remorse" over hitching themselves to the whole EuroScheme. They are figuring out that, just because you live in the same neighbourhood with Greece, you don't necessarily want to share a checking account with them.

Time for a return to the DeutchMark.

Stop lending money. It is absolutely impossible for any country to borrow it's way out of debt. The interest payments are already killing every major (and minor) country in the entire world, so how does borrowing even more money help?

The 'Debt Money System' and 'Fractional Reserve Lending' have FAILED... If you do not know what this means (find out) it the cause of all our nations financial problems... The only winners are the Mega commercial banks (who are the lenders that governments borrow money from).

Countries like the USA should be named GSA 'Goldman Sachs of America' why? because they control everything, and the politicians love them because they always get their loans....

Just write off half of Geeks' debt.

I have had that sarkozy enough,was he out of his mind? Greece was sunk ,nobody could help that little nation of miserables who refused to help her own ! The EU can goes on without Greece, this is a political agenda to save the face of that arrogance 'EU'!

The fantasy of 'European Union' was over, you lost and you have to forgotton this chapter of history! Grow up a little bit, those arrogance europeans and look at what was real,the Chinese government shall never saves you!Never! Indeed China has huge reserves but not a single penny will spare to such a 'failed' political system! The death of EU was the faults of her own,her so called 'democratic' chairmanship was rotation instead of a powerful one party leadership to lead all the members ! They are subjected to doom!

just-a-guy:

" The fantasy of 'European Union' was over, "

Please don´t fall into the trap of confusing the "European Union" and the "Euro" currency. They are not the same, no matter how often the Eurocrats try to tell us that if one fails the other does.

The opposite is true. The smaller, less ambitious EU that we had before the Euro worked just fine. A European Union that restricts itself to clearly delineated co-operation in some areas (like trade, defense, harmonization of standards, etc.) is still a good idea.

What has to go is the megalomanic concept of a Brussels-ruled empire and the crowbar used to force it, called the Euro.

DS:

" Wow, the Germans must really be having "buyer's remorse" over hitching themselves to the whole EuroScheme. "

The German population, yes, and overwhelming so. But the politicians (both Merkels gang and the so-called opposition) are both still hell-bent on paying whatever is required to save the unsavlable Euro.

The politicians statements coming out of Berlin have a horrible sound of "Endsieg" rethoric, with a complete refusal to face reality or show responsibility. Have the the political elites learned nothing?

Maybe the EU should just adopt the Chinese Yuan??

ElbudoMexicano:

" Maybe the EU should just adopt the Chinese Yuan?? "

LOL, that would be the same problem, only a bigger scale. You think China is eager to bail out Greece and soon Italy?

Please have these banksters have a haircut. Let a few banks tumble. Weed out those who are too stupid to deal with money. And then have them focus on rebuilding the economy.

Neither the EU nor the Euro will be over soon. Greece will default and there will be a haircut. Greece will probably even leave the Eurozone. The Eurozone and the EU will be transformed in the hard way. It will hurt a lot. Countries will lose some more of their sovereignty. The EU needs a democratic structure, because its current structure isn't adequate. Larger countries will lose a lot of money.

But this money would be lost otherwise as well, because it would be obtained by criminal banks that lost plenty of assets with risky financial products. Wait until big money starts to assault the dollar sphere. Compared to this future, the current woes in Europe are like a picnic. Or maybe the Chinese real estate bubble bursts first. We are living in interesting times.

Johannes Weber:

" Greece will default and there will be a haircut. Greece will probably even leave the Eurozone. "

That would solve the Greek problem, but then there is Italy and Spain next. How much more of the same? A reduced Eurozone with a few compatible countries is possible, but what would be the point? Why not go back to the national currencies which worked before and which work everywhere.

" The Eurozone and the EU will be transformed in the hard way. "

Transformed into what? That is the basic question which the Euro promoters never answer. A United States of Europe? Fine, but then lay the proper groundwork. Complete political unification, with democratic elections for a European government. Common financial and fiscal policy, shared language, shared institutions. If you think that is workable, fine.

But the Brussels monstrosity with its uncontrolled backroom deal is not that.

You are german, right? Go back and read what e.g. Max Otte and Wilhelm Hankel said about the Euro project already before it started. Everything they said has turned out to be true.

@WilliB:

The politicians statements coming out of Berlin have a horrible sound of "Endsieg" rethoric, with a complete refusal to face reality or show responsibility. Have the the political elites learned nothing?

I do not find anything of an "Endsieg" rethoric in the speeches of my country recently. I see that many leaders don't want to face the unfaceable (that they have to take the fight back to BIG MONEY) and maybe cut down the European Union to a manageable size, which would be quite difficult.

That would solve the Greek problem, but then there is Italy and Spain next.

You cannot compare Italy and Greece. Italy has a healthy economy in the north only. But there, it is economically quite powerful. Italy has enough private assets to pay for their debts, if they try to. Greece is a different case.

Go back and read what e.g. Max Otte and Wilhelm Hankel said about the Euro project already before it started.

I know both of them and I agree in some points. However, they have their own interests in the game. By the way, since Otte publishes in "Junge Freiheit" which is a controversial, far-right newspaper, I have doubts about his intentions.

Many Euopean countries still have too much pride to give up enough sovereignty for a political union to be working. They are learning it the hard way. Either Europe as a whole shifts towards the economical model (stability and an efficient social system with reduced cost) of the European Union's core nations or the entire project will be a failure.

Thanks WilyC! Not too sure about the near future of the EU but my guess only the Chinese have $$$$$$$ so they will take over all those little countries that are up for sale. IMHO

Johannes Weber:

" I know both of them and I agree in some points. However, they have their own interests in the game. "

What "own interests"? Hankel is retired, and Otte is teaching economics. Neither are working for major banks --- unlike the most of the "advisors" who help Euro politicians craft their endless bailouts.

" By the way, since Otte publishes in "Junge Freiheit" which is a controversial, far-right newspaper, " Trying to smear him by attacking a publisher is irrelevant to the topic. Otte also appeares on German national TV by the way. Too rightist for you too? LOL

While we are it, here is another little known economist on the topic:

"At the outset of the creation of the euro in 1999, it was expected that the southern eurozone economies would behave like those in the north; the Italians would behave like Germans. They didn’t, Instead, northern Europe fell into subsidizing southern Europe’s excess consumption, that is, its current account deficits." Alan Greenspan

Stating the obvious

@WilliB:

"At the outset of the creation of the euro in 1999, it was expected that the southern eurozone economies would behave like those in the north; the Italians would behave like Germans. They didn’t, Instead, northern Europe fell into subsidising southern Europe’s excess consumption, that is, its current account deficits." Alan Greenspan

I must admit that Greespan is right on this one. Though he isn't such a big authority, since he failed completely in the US hypothecary crisis.

One of the main problems of Europe is that many countries don't want to dominated by outside powers. But they want the funds, which have to be paid by outside powers. The fear of German dominance (in Europe) is a notion from the first half of the last century. This mindset is one of the strongest hindrances for the Euro. You cannot have the benefits from being affiliated with Germany (and its economy) without accepting it as a model for building your own economy and administration.

Johannes Weber:

" The fear of German dominance (in Europe) is a notion from the first half of the last century. This mindset is one of the strongest hindrances for the Euro. You cannot have the benefits from being affiliated with Germany (and its economy) without accepting it as a model for building your own economy and administration. "

LOL, so you advocate a new Great German empire? Understandably, the Greeks and other PIIG countries disagree. And that is why you see now protesters in Greece calling Germans Nazis.

That is what the Euro project brought you.

As was predicted by clear-thinking economists.

@WilliB:

LOL, so you advocate a new Great German empire?

No, I do not advocate a German empire. But I think that the German way of fiscal austerity is better suited for financial stability than the oversized public administrations of PIIGS. They should take it as a model for creating an efficient state. I don't want that Europe loses its diversity. But it would do them good to copy the strengths of others.

As well as I advocate emulating the Netherlands for reducing drug crime. Or Scandinavia for a fair taxation system. Or Canada for immigration policy. Or Japan for... something...

Johannes Weber:

" I think that the German way of fiscal austerity is better suited for financial stability than the oversized public administrations of PIIGS. "

But that is the same arrogant thinking as before. Where do you get the idea from that all other cultures would imitate the German system, once they are in one currency? Because they all admire Germany so much? In that case, why didn´t try to become like Germany before the Euro?

Ask yourself why in a common currency area , the opposite would not happen. Greek style inflation, shady political backroom deals, and a central bank that is not like the Bundesbank, but totally run by politicians the way it has been done in the South European countries for ages.

Oops, thanks to Brussels and the Euro, we got all that now. Lets see how the German voters like the Kafkaeske system and double-digit inflation.

Your idea that everybody secretly wishes to be German.... mind-boggling.

Gosh! I want to be German too!! Yeah right! They have nice cars, good football and beer, but come on we all want to be German?? LOL!! Great comment WilliB!

They better send someone to Greece to count the money because if it is going to be anything like the service I get at National Bank of Greece, then....maybe some of the Bundesbank's staff should go. Alpha Bank is totally great, let them supervise everything.

WilliB is right, everybody should become German then there wouldn't be anymore problems and good Tatorts on TV worldwide.

Foxie:

" WilliB is right, everybody should become German then there wouldn't be anymore problems and good Tatorts on TV worldwide. "

No, that is Johannes Weber who stated that, once we have a common currency, all cultures will magically change to be like the Germanic one. Heureca! All you have to do is join the Eurozone.

Me, I was doubting that. Ahem.

Ok, OK, enough of the German jokes! LOL! But actually I do feel sorry for Germany, WEST Germany had to pay $$$$$ for that mess over in EAST Germany, and they made a new unified DEMOCRATIC country, but now they have to bail out Greece?? and the rest of the messed up countries in the EU?? Better to just let Greece become part of the Greater CHINA?? Can you imagine, poor sunny Greece all those lovely beaches invaded by a bunch of wild Chinese, yelling, throwing garbage every where but also with fists full of $$$$?? Maybe now, for the Greeks it may not sound too bad. IMHO.

Ok, OK, enough of the German jokes! Can you imagine, poor sunny Greece all those lovely beaches invaded by a bunch of wild Chinese, yelling, throwing garbage every where but also with fists full of $$$$?? Maybe now, for the Greeks it may not sound too bad. IMHO.

Your Greko-chinese jokes are not funny either.

Haircut of the Greek debt was inevitable. Fortunately for Greece, Germany and France were not willing to abandon her in a state of default and misery. I am not sure how these countries are going to react in the case of Italy though. Someone here said that Italy and Greece are totally different and that the Italian economy is much stronger than Greece's. This is 100% true, but financial crises don't strike only weak countries. In any case, the Greek debt is counted in billions while the Italian one in trillion. Thus, it is in a totally different scale and i hope that the Eurozone would never have to deal with it...

Any rational person would let the euro collapse and then the crux of the problem, fractional reserve banking, would disappear down the drain hole of history. Sure there would be an awful impact but keeping the system afloat via monetary inflation and war (it's how the bankers transfer wealth and escape the distorted boom-bust cycle to reset the system) is even worse. At least with a collapse the public would finally have a chance to rid ourselves of debt slavery and get the banksters off our backs.

The trouble for Europe's politicians and bankers is that they are constrained to how much money they can print and are having to fight every step of the way to obtain mere Billions of euros. They need much more to stop the euro from collapsing, if only temporarily, and fix the system in their favour. But more is never enough. That's the nature of the fiat-money beast.

Contrast the European situation with the Fed and the reserve currency dollar where they can pretty much print at will. They injected at least 16 Trillion dollars to save the system from 2008 - 2010. And now there is talk of QE3, if it hasn't started already. We also find out the other day that the Fed guaranteed 75 Trillion dollars of BoA's bad derivatives debt by transferring the risk to the taxpayer. Where does it end?

So like the Fed the Europeans have to find a way to print and print until the euro is either inflated away to nothing or a depression starts to at least salvage some of the banks. With the way the public are waking up and the Germans, Finns, Greeks etc resisting it seems likely they won't have the power to pull it off. We'll soon see I suppose.

Elbbuda mexicano:

" Ok, OK, enough of the German jokes! LOL! But actually I do feel sorry for Germany, WEST Germany had to pay $$$$$ for that mess over in EAST Germany, and they made a new unified DEMOCRATIC country, but now they have to bail out Greece?? "

That is an interesting point! Do you know that today, some 20 years after unification, West Germany is STILL subsidizing East Germany? 20 years counting, and the East German economy and society still has not aligned itself with the West. And in case of East Germany, the common currency of course makes sense.... complete unification, same legal framework, same culture etc etc.

But have the German politicians learned anything? Nooo... while they are still subsidizing East Germany, they now think that with a few regulations and admonishments from Angela, the PIIG countries would turn into little West Germanys. Insane!

Sarkozy, by the way, admitted yesterday that Greeks entry into the Eurozone was a "mistake". Well, duh! Now what does a sensible person do with a mistake? Sarkozos and Merkels answer is: Double down on it...

@WilliB:

But that is the same arrogant thinking as before. Where do you get the idea from that all other cultures would imitate the German system, once they are in one currency? Because they all admire Germany so much? In that case, why didn'many before the Euro? [...] Your idea that everybody secretly wishes to be German.... mind-boggling.

I do not know where You find this statement in my post. I'd be surprised if a lot of people in the world wanted to be German. It would mean taking up a share of the collective shame for the crimes of World War II by choice. Because whoever doesn't perceive it like this, hasn't understood the German identity at all.

There is a difference between administration and culture. Fiscal austerity and fight against corruption is part of the administration side. Language, festivals, food, music, details about voting, all that is culture. I hope that Greece bounces back. I am sure that it can maintain a Greek cultural identity, even though it might add a few new aspects. As all our European countries do.

If You want to live in a prospering country, then You need a stable and reliable administration. And there is currently no better European model available (for countries of large sizes) than the German one. I'd love to see a better one, but there is none yet.

Johannes Weber:

" There is a difference between administration and culture. Fiscal austerity and fight against corruption is part of the administration side. Language, festivals, food, music, details about voting, all that is culture. I hope that Greece bounces back. I am sure that it can maintain a Greek cultural identity, even though it might add a few new aspects. As all our European countries do. "

You can not separate the two, The way Greek unions function, the way the Greek political system works, the attitude towards taxes.... it is all part of the culture. It sheer lunacy to believe that you can simply transplant the German political system into Greece by demanding so.

" If You want to live in a prospering country, then You need a stable and reliable administration. And there is currentlno better European model available (for countries of large sizes) than the German one. "

It is great that you think so. Has it ever occurred that not everyone thinks so? "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen?" Good grief.

And by the way, the current Greek model works great.... live on borrowed money while German picks up the tab. Why would any Greek politician want to change that? And certainly not because Merkel gives a few stern speeches.

You can not separate the two, The way Greek unions function, the way the Greek political system works, the attitude towards taxes.... it is all part of the culture. It sheer lunacy to believe that you can simply transplant the German political system into Greece by demanding so.

Sorry, but i disagree. Irony aside, you can not expect to survive in the current competitive economic environment without adopting some of the successful policies of other countries. Look at China, for example. Who would have expected 35 years ago that the hardcore Communist China would have adopted hardcore Capitalist principles in order to survive? The answer: no one. Who would have expected back in the 1850s that the Feudal Japan would end up some few decades later to defeat the great Russian Empire by adopting policies for developing militarism and supporting industrialism, while at the same time westernizing its entire society? The answer is again: no one. Throughout history, the element of change is necessary in order to survive. Change is not an easy procedure but it is definitely necessary.

I am not going to comment about you considering the Greek culture as corrupt. This is absurd and definitely misleading. You can characterize the Labor Unions and the Public sector as corrupt, but when you label the entire culture as "corrupt", i can not take your comment as serious.

Iron-y reserves will not float the Euro-Zone. The E.U. will not be satisfied until: every last stitch of ideology, Cultural diversity and Economics is put together under one symbol.