Europe's COVID crisis pits vaccinated against unvaccinated

If the vaccines are so effective, why do articles like this continue to claim that the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated?

So the protected needs protection from the unprotected by requiring the unprotected to get the protection that does not protect the protected.... Seems legit!

Not that they actually do carry a virus, just that they might.

Same thing with seatbelts in cars. You have to wear one not because you’re going to crash, but because you might.

If the vaccines are so effective, why do articles like this continue to claim that the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated?

This here in the third paragraph is the answer.

*Governments desperate to shield overburdened healthcare systems** are imposing rules that limit choices for the unvaccinated in the hope that doing so will drive up rates of vaccinations.*

*Because there are many reasons both vaccinated and unvaccinated might utilize healthcare, not just this virus.

“There’s almost a sort of hate speech being whipped up against the unvaccinated,” she said.

The pandemic deniers threw the first stones, and using their media have kept up a non-stop litany of attacks as millions have died, health care systems have been overwhelmed and economies further weakened. The anti-vaxxers are not people I feel much sympathy for, many of them have shown they are me-centric anarchists, just misanthropic parasites with no regard for anything beyond their nose. Many anti-waxxers seem to be narcissists, just like their leader who continues riling them up, which is worrying because so many of them are heavily armed and have shown a willingness to attempt a violent revolution, see Jan 6th.

@Haa Nemui.... Govern Me Harder!

The problem is a segment of society that feels no obligation to anything other than their immediate personal wants. They could care less if asserting their claimed rights harms anyone else. There is no sense of duty or obligation to any higher cause. The idea that rights come with obligations is alien to them. They do not realize that unless everybody pulls their weight and does all the things, every single one, to stop the spread of this virus it will keep mutating and killing people. This is one of those situations where everybody has to pull together for everyone's sake. Rugged individualism only guarantees a lot of people die a rugged miserable death. I had this stuff early in the pandemic. Think hard about whether you want to make somebody else suffer like I did, a long hauler, or worse die while on a ventilator, all because you stubbornly refused to wear a mask, keep your distance from others and be vaccinated. Three simple things we all have to do. All of us. Every single one of us. If we all do not then this misery doesn't end.

Govern Me Harder!

Tell me please why I and others among us who have done all the right things must continue to suffer as this pandemic is prolonged by people who won't do the right things? Why should I suffer on account of someone else's irresponsibility? Do I not have a right to be free from this virus? Do you not have some obligations to your neighbors, co-workers and your country as a whole?

The question of why do I need to get vaccinated if almost everyone else is is just moronic. First the vaccines are not 100% effective and if you are not vaccinated, you are putting everyone around you at risk, including children. Has anyone ever had complications from the MMR vaccines as a child? You anti vaxers probably don't even remember getting it. Talk about hypocrisy.

I get that people around the world have a mistrust of government. Governments can lie, withhold information, etc. But this is just common sense and the science is sound and clear. Get vaccinated! Governments are not lying about this why would they? Covid is ruining economies and stretching healthcare systems to the brink.

The best solution would be to give the anti vaccers a month deadline and then simply refuse any treatment for Covid-19 unless paid for in advance.

It is well known by many from many reports from overseas ( but not here ) that the hospitals are filling up with vaccinated people who are injured and dying from the jabs. Israel confirms it. Videos of athletes and sports players dropping like flies after vax. Can't be hidden because all televised sports events. It's all out there if you care to search.

No.

It’s only well known on dodgy Facebook shares. If it can’t be hidden then you’ll be able to post a link to athletes dropping like flies after being vaccinated.

But I suspect you won’t because of “the man”, so you have to do your own research, it’s all out there and can’t be hidden, but I can’t tell you about it, etc etc.

cla68

If the vaccines are so effective, why do articles like this continue to claim that the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated?

This article doesn't claim that the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated.

They are a threat to all of society. They are a threat to those who cannot get vaccinated and also to their fellow unvaccinated brethren. But most importantly, they keep the virus alive and spreading.

I have an obligation to take care of my family, work for my customers and be a productive member of society

And that means you need to wear a face mask at all times when out in the public in case you have Covid and are asymptomatic. The mask prevents you from spreading it to someone else who might not end up as asymptomatic as you. You might put someone on a ventilator or kill them outright without knowing you even have Covid

It means for the sake of others you keep your distance so the chance of you inadvertently giving it to someone else is minimized

It means you get vaccinated so your chances of getting the virus and potentially spreading to to others is minimized.

You can't be a productive member of society if you are sick with Covid-19 and especially if like me you end up being a long hauler.

How hard is this to understand. Three simple things all of us have to do. The excuse about inflamed hearts is just a weak excuse. The frequency of it occurring is infinitesimally small, far smaller than the risk of getting really sick from Covid-19 and also spreading it because you are not vaccinated.

I have an obligation to take care of my family,

A very important point, and one that you ignore yourself by not getting vaccinated.

work for my customers and be a productive member of society.

Less important than public safety and your obligations in a civilized society.

Therefore, I refrain from taking a substance that could give me debilitating heart conditions which will then burden the health care system.

Odds of death from covid are 10,000 per million or higher. Chance of long haul covid even higher.

Odds of death by vaccine are about 1 in a million. Issues from vaccines are far less than from covid itself. Your false equivalency is blatantly obvious.

Currently, I'm healthy, working, paying taxes and not using the health care system.

Good for you, I hope it stays that way for your sake. Chances are that you will get covid at some point and being unvaccinated is like trapeze without a net. At that point you will not be serving your customers, protecting your family or community and you may well be a long term drain on medical resources.

Your continued arguments against the vaccine are erroneous and misleading. I hope you never have to pay the price for such ignorance of the facts.

I don't agree with the mandatory shots, but this COVID thing is getting out of control. I think things will improve once there are more medications that can better help those that catch it.

This is effectively a restraining order on millions of people, based on the assumption that they might carry a virus.

A measurable increase of the risk is a perfectly valid reason to impose measures, drunk drivers are detained and punished based on the assumption they can cause accidents, even if they have not done it yet.

If the vaccines are so effective, why do articles like this continue to claim that the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated?

Because vaccination do lower the risk for everybody, vaccines have never claimed to be absolutely effective for everybody. They do help to contain spreading and eventually stop outbreaks but not if people willingly choose to increase the risk for everybody.

So the protected needs protection from the unprotected by requiring the unprotected to get the protection that does not protect the protected.... Seems legit!

Misrepresentation is too obvious, the community is protected by vaccinating, unvaccinated people reduce this protection by irrational choices.

It is well known by many from many reports from overseas ( but not here ) that the hospitals are filling up with vaccinated people who are injured and dying from the jabs. Israel confirms it

The opposite, which is why you don't produce those supposed reports. Unvaccinated people conform an undeniable majority of the people that get complications and die when comparing between equivalent populations (in terms of age and other factors of risk).

Therefore, I refrain from taking a substance that could give me debilitating heart conditions which will then burden the health care system.

You are doing the opposite, because COVID is a much more likely source of debilitating hearth conditions than any of the available vaccines, you just want to live in denial of this fact.

It’s really very simple. But even that is a hurdle for some to understand.

The vaccines are not 100% effective. Nobody has claimed they were.

You can still get Covid after being vaccinated. Unlikely but possible.

If you are vaccinated and get Covid your chances of serious illness or death are much smaller than if you are unvaccinated.

Vaccinated currently being hospitalised are still a far smaller group than the unvaccinated and are mostly elderly. Claims of hospitals being clogged up by vaccinated patients are untrue.

Any claims contrary to these facts should be dismissed.

Austria on Friday went a step further, making vaccinations mandatory as of Feb. 1.

Nice!

Slovakia is banning people who haven't been vaccinated from all nonessential stores and shopping malls. They also will not be allowed to attend any public event or gathering and will be required to test twice a week just to go to work.

Music to my ears!

Greece, too, is targeting the unvaccinated. new restrictions late Thursday for the unvaccinated, keeping them out of venues including bars, restaurants, cinemas, theaters, museums and gyms, even if they have tested negative.

I'm lovin' It!

“a lockdown for the unvaccinated.”

Just as I predicted! Loving it!

This is effectively a restraining order on millions of people, based on the assumption that they might carry a virus. Not that they actually do carry a virus, just that they might.

I love the way you sum up your victimization! You do it so perfectly it gives me the chills sometimes!

Enjoy!

It is interesting Israel keeps popping up. I’m not a fan politically, but there is no question they are advanced in fields of science, medicine, technology and they are extremely innovative. I do have a question however. Considering their expertise in the aforementioned fields, and considering the supposed results of studies on the vaccines showing the low levels of effectiveness… why on earth do they continue to push the vaccines for their citizens?

In the UK, vaccinated English adults are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age.

Since the vaccinated in the UK outnumber the unvaccinated by about 5 to 1, I would say that is proof positive that vaccines are working to save lives.

In terms of Vaccines and public health, the west is a developing country. Take a look at Japan, this is how its done.

Healthy, uninfected people should not be arrested merely for being alive.

No kidding. That’s why they aren’t.

Seems pretty clear if you're into scientific facts, if you're vaccinated you live, if you're not you die....

In fact 11 times more likely to die....

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely

On the other hand, if your preferred medical source is a Fox News talking head or a pillow salesman, then you may prefer horse dewormer... That will certainly cure your worms, but won't protect you from COVID...

Perhaps that's some solace to the unvaccinated - going to their graves free of worms....

@cla68

You are correct. If you’re vaxxed, you shouldn’t care whether someone else is.

Governments have not been honest, claiming only Unvaccinated were transmitting COVID and only vaccines can help with hospital capacity.

We are witnessing first hand how the vaccine mandates will backfire in a big way. Power to the people, stand your ground, and never acquiesce (accept something reluctantly but without protest) to the few that are trying to control the many. Just how far they go to take our freedoms away is up to us.

Just how far they go to take our freedoms away is up to us.

Yes, and once it is taken away, we will never get it back!

Take a look at Japan, this is how its done.

Lies and manipulation are not the cure.

It’s really very simple. But even that is a hurdle for some to understand.

The vaccines are not 100% effective. Nobody has claimed they were.

You can still get Covid after being vaccinated. Unlikely but possible.

If you are vaccinated and get Covid your chances of serious illness or death are much smaller than if you are unvaccinated.

Vaccinated currently being hospitalised are still a far smaller group than the unvaccinated and are mostly elderly. Claims of hospitals being clogged up by vaccinated patients are untrue.

Any claims contrary to these facts should be dismissed.

Certainly simple for those able to reason....for those that have been manipulated and bamboozled by the far-right media for cash, and their complicit far-right politicians for votes, it obviously more complicated...

Complicated, as in all those symptoms they get before they die from COVID by being unvaccinated...

What many vaccinated people ignore is the fact that they also can catch the virus and can spread it to everyone.

Many vaccinated people think they are safe, throw away their masks and forgot all preventions.

Then they catch the virus and spread it.

If an unvaccinated person catch the virus, the possibility to Know it and to get sick is higher than a vaccinated person.

If an unvaccinated person catch the virus and got sick, he or she will stay home until he or she is recovered.

If a vaccinated person catch the virus, he will not feel it because he will probably get not sick.

So what is he doing? Going out, without mask, without any prevention...and spread the virus.

And another fact that the vaccinated people ignore is, that the protection from the vaccine goes down each single day after you got the vaccine.

My second shot was about 5 months ago. What is my protection by today? 40%? 50%?

So the vaccinated people should not give all the blame to the unvaccinated people for the spread of the virus.

Because the vaccinated people are sitting in the same boat.

Always remember the fact, that we as vaccinated people can also spread the virus to everyone around us and make them sick, especially because the effectiffness of the vaccine is going down by each single day.

We are witnessing first hand how the vaccine mandates will backfire in a big way. Power to the people, stand your ground, and never acquiesce (accept something reluctantly but without protest) to the few that are trying to control the many. Just how far they go to take our freedoms away is up to us.

Obscure shadowy waffle is just that. Witnessing what? What is backfiring?

The few controlling the many is how governments have worked your entire life and thousands of years before. Are you advocating socialism? That’s a different matter entirely.

The few here are the anti-vaccine group. The many are the rest of us. But paint your face blue and cry ‘freedom for Tooting’ if it makes you feel better.

Lots of Americans reading this are probably saying to themselves, “We’re not alone. There are indeed the same kind of selfish ignoramuses in other countries.”

Going from the comments from a sizeable portion of European governments, a big chunk of their populations, and the usual suspects on this forum, it's not surprising that Europe is making the same mistakes as those nearly a century ago. The Austrians do have a short collective memory.

@8T

Just how far they go to take our freedoms away is up to us.

Yes, and once it is taken away, we will never get it back!

Tell that to all the people in Eastern Europe who were under Russia's thumb and are now members of the EU. Tell it to the Western European countries occupied by the Nazis the Asian countries occupied by Japan. Tell it to the descendants of slaves throughout the Americas.

What many vaccinated people ignore is the fact that they also can catch the virus and can spread it to everyone.

That has been clearly stated and understood by vaccinated posters on this site. Again and again.

In Japan almost everyone is still wearing a mask. And most adults are fully vaccinated. They also understand this.

Unless you have a legitimate health reason that prevents you from getting vaccinated, or you can prove that you have tried to get vaccinated but couldn’t for whatever reason, there should be no ICU beds for the unvaccinated.

In Japan almost everyone is still wearing a mask. And most adults are fully vaccinated.

I know that!

But This article is about Europe.

So I talk about the people in Europe.

They also understand this.

And if the vaccinated people understand this, why do they give all the blame to the unvaccinated people?

How many of the hospitalised people were infected by a vaccinated person?

But paint your face blue and cry ‘freedom for Tooting’ if it makes you feel better.

I would imagine it makes alot of people feel better, it called a discussion.

Just wait until the definition of “vaccinated” is changed again to make it mandatory for a booster.

then another booster and another.

if the vaccine works, vaccinated people have nothing to fear from unvaccinated people.

I used to think about arguing with the anti-vax movement, but honestly, I say let Darwinism take effect. Keep the dumb inside, let their immune systems fend for themselves, reserve hospital beds for people who need them, and the problem will take care of itself in due time.

if the vaccine works, vaccinated people have nothing to fear from unvaccinated people.

A simplistic notion that ignores the science.

The unvaccinated get infected more easily than the vaccinated.

The more people infected the more chances for mutation of the virus.

Vaccinations lesson the risk from both catching the virus and dying from it but it does not eliminate the possibility.

The more close contact vaccinated people have with the unvaccinated, the higher the chances of getting infected and of passing it on.

The less easy it is for the virus to spread the sooner the pandemic will end. Unvaccinated people do NOTHING to assist in ending this pandemic, but they do provide more easy mutaion avenues for covid. That puts everyone at risk, vaccinated or not.

The pandemic deniers threw the first stones,

Yup! Why do they have to take something they don’t want or could potentially harm or even kill them?

Hmmmm.....so the vaccine could "potentially harm" and even "kill".....

What does that make someone who has clearly stated that the vaccine "is safe, and it works".....

https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-urges-all-americans-to-get-covid-vaccine-its-a-safe-vaccine

According to you, I guess that makes him a liar...

Unvaccinated people do NOTHING to assist in ending this pandemic, but they do provide more easy mutaion avenues for covid. 

Not if unvaccinated people don’t catch COVID. All of these narratives assume that everyone who is unvaccinated gets COVID. They don’t.

Not if unvaccinated people don’t catch COVID. All of these narratives assume that everyone who is unvaccinated gets COVID. They don’t.

Where is your data that proves unvaccinated people suddenly become completely immune to infection? This may be hard for you to accept but unvaccinated people do get COVID, and more easily than vaccinated people.

Bass: The media throughout all of this has been appalling and turned out to be less trustworthy than ever before and has made itself the enemy of the people. 

I'm lovin' what they did to you! Now get off my plane and get out of my movie theatre!

You can live at home alone in the dark with your victimization. Perfectly fine with me!

nice deflection try.

where is your data far everyone who isn’t vaccinated got or will get COVID?

many unvaccinated never get it. And I said nothing about immune. They simply don’t get it. So they aren’t involved in any of this “mutation” or spread whatsoever.

Why on earth are we still talking about data? Is the anti-vaxxers plan of no vaccines and no lockdowns still up for debate or something?

You lost. We won. Now the segregation will begin, just as I predicted. You were warned and ignored it. Your choice.

Lock the unvaccinated out of normal society. They don't have to take it, we don't have to live with their consequences.

It was always going to end this way.

You lost. We won. Now the segregation will begin, just as I predicted. You were warned and ignored it. Your choice.

Europe can do what it wants, but that won’t fly in certain US States so…..

This how sad the world has become. Family Guy felt obliged to do a vaccination PSA. Peter Griffin is as dumb as they get and he's convinced into getting the vaccine.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zDQuwkJIBaY&feature=share

What many vaccinated people ignore is the fact that they also can catch the virus and can spread it to everyone.

No, that is a false point from people that refuse to accept they are in the wrong

So are you saying, that vaccinated people do NOT catch and can NOT spread the virus?

Or are you saying they do NOT ignore and DO know the fact that CAN catch and spread the virus

Sorry, but I don't understand what you are talking about?

What exactly do that mean, vaccinated people should still have other precautions (and are more likely to do it,

Which other precautions are you talking about?

bass4funkToday  11:16 am JST

What? Anyway, I’m just glad that I’m my State and now Florida freedom still reigns supreme.

Your state? So you are not in Japan as you have said? Please clarify this.

I think it’s good that people are resisting. I think it’s good for the species that we burn through the unvaccinated.

What is the point of these endless below the line “debates” anyway?

The pro-vaccination people won’t change their viewpoints.

The anti-vaccination people won’t change their viewpoints.

It all seems rather pointless to me.

Simple questions?

Why oh why do Austria need to reconfine everybody?

Why not sticking to the initial plan of reconfining the unvaccinated?

Why mass ordering the Covid pill?

Does the vaccine really work for people under 40?

Why not promoting healthier lifestyle so immunity gets better? How would that fit with Pfizer profits?

Thanks

This cannot be any simple.

Some vaccinated (A) can still get extremely sick or die because of underlying conditions.

Most vaccinated (B) will be able to fight of the virus and not spread them.

Unvaccinated (C) will always spread the virus to (C), (B) and vulnerables (A).

(A) is always in danger whether (C) is don’t get sick or not.

The All-Cause Death data keeps getting worse for the vaccinated population, as vaccinated individuals are now nearly 3x more likely to die than the unvaccinated.

“Weekly figures for the week ending November 5 showed that there were 1,659 more deaths than would normally be expected at this time of year. Of those, 700 were not caused by Covid.

The excess is likely to grow as more deaths are registered in the coming weeks.

Data from the UK Health Security Agency show there have been thousands more deaths than the five-year average in heart failure, heart disease, circulatory conditions and diabetes since the summer.

The number of deaths in private homes is also 40.9 per cent above the five-year average, with 964 excess deaths recorded in the most recent week, which runs up to November 5.” (“Alarm grows as mortuaries fill with thousands of extra non-Covid deaths“, UK Telegraph)

The sudden surge in mortality is not a meaningless blip on the radar. It’s a red flag indicating a significant break in the five-year trend. Something has gone terribly wrong. Mass vaccination was supposed to reduce the number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths. Instead, the fatalities continue to rise.

Why?

The answer to that question can be found in the data itself. As the author admits, there has been a sharp uptick in heart failure, heart disease, circulatory conditions and strokes. (Diabetes is the outlier) These are precisely the ailments one would expect to see if one had just injected millions of people with a clot-generating biologic that triggers a violent immune response that attacks the inner lining of the blood vessels inflicting severe damage to the body’s critical infrastructure. So, yes, all-cause mortality is up, and it is certain to climb even higher as more people are vaccinated and gradually succumb to the (frequently) delayed effects of a hybrid concoction that is the cornerstone of a malign plan to dramatically reduce global population.

The cumulative numbers are bad and steadily growing worse for the vaccine narrative, even if one accepts that all of the deaths attributed to Covid were actually caused by the virus, which is not correct. Notice, in particular, that the number of Covid deaths were SMALLER than the number of excess deaths in 2020; the “deadly pandemic” actually reduced the number of people dying in 2020.

In fact, based on the all-cause data, a vaccinated individual is now already more than twice as likely to die as an unvaccinated individual. And there are no signs that those odds are going to improve any time soon; to the contrary, that ratio is almost certainly going to climb, and climb significantly. If your friends and family can’t understand either the math or the logic, perhaps they can understand that they are now nearly three times as likely to die than if they hadn’t taken the shots.

where is your data far everyone who isn’t vaccinated got or will get COVID?

Where did I say vaccinated people can't get infected like you did? using false arguments that are easily proven so completely disproves your point.

So are you saying, that vaccinated people do NOT catch and can NOT spread the virus?

Or are you saying they do NOT ignore and DO know the fact that CAN catch and spread the virus

Read again my reply, your whole point depends on people ignoring something that is common knowledge, that is not believable, specially because vaccinated people still commonly follow scientific recommendations.

Which other precautions are you talking about?

Almost two years since the beginning of the pandemic and you still ignore what other precautions are there? that is extremely sad.

Recent studies show same viral load in vaccinated and unvaccinated. So your 3rd point is not valid.

No they dont, studies show that vaccinated people that get infected (less than unvaccinated) and that develop symptoms (again less than unvaccinated infected people) reach the same viral loads, but not even for the same amount of time. That is completely different from all vaccinated people being equivalent to all unvaccinated people. It is like saying that people that get antibiotics for an infection but still end up in intensive care die as much as people that never got any antibiotics, it may be true but completely misleading because it hides the fact getting antibiotics for an infection makes it much less likely to end up in the ICU than people that did not get any.

The All-Cause Death data keeps getting worse for the vaccinated population, as vaccinated individuals are now nearly 3x more likely to die than the unvaccinated.

How about a link to that data? To keep mentioning some supposedly available data (and "authors") but then not linking to that data indicates very strongly the actual data do not say what the comment is. If it were the only natural thing to do would be to link to it.

I see lots of people unmasked in that picture. Maybe they just got their 2d, 3rd or 4th booster?

So you got all these vaccinated people running around in the world without masks, the potency of their vaccinations severely diminished, and they are gathering in large groups, and infecting the heck out of everyone.

The All-Cause Death data keeps getting worse for the vaccinated population, as vaccinated individuals are now nearly 3x more likely to die than the unvaccinated.

Now you people are just getting silly.

You know, with a vaccine you believe will kill them

You are Entitled to believe into dream about Trump as much as you want, that is your right, I have nothing to do with that

What? You submit? Such an easy question - what do you call someone that recommends a vaccine that you say kills? And says this on Fox News where all his supporters will hear him?

Almost two years since the beginning of the pandemic and you still ignore what other precautions are there? that is extremely sad.

You didn't answer my question!

What Other precautions for the vaccinated people?

Other means NOT the same like the usual ones. (Masks, hand sanitizers, social distance...)

And you said other precautions for the vaccinated people. (so not for the unvaccianted people, right?)

So where is your answer?

What are these other precautions for the vaccinated people???

I guess you don't answer, because you by yourself have no idea what you are talking about and what your comment means.