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European court: No crucifixes in Italian schools

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Why is that one person can change through government a tradition of something that has been around for a lot longer than that person was here and a lot longer than when they are gone?Instead of pushing their beliefs on the majority why don't they just not look at it?For example, I don't particualary care for rap music,I don't listen to it. I know there are people who do. But I am not going to try and stop it. This is the same way the US has gone. Seperation of church and state started alot of this in the 1970s when an atheist mother wanted to stop prayer in schools. She did and she was one person pushing her beliefs on others. I don't mind respecting someones beliefs of religion, sexuality, music, or what have you but don't try to convert me. Whatever happened to majority rules?

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I'm Catholic and also a teacher, religion has no place in public schools. If a parent feels that a religious aspect to education is so important, send them to a private school.

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"..government maintained the crucifix is a symbol of Italian...history and tradition.."

OK, then have a statue of Jupiter in each classroom, too.

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Must be vampires in Italy. Anyway, I respect this just as I respect schools from forcing students to remove head scarves. religion has no place in schools just as much as it has no place in hospitals.

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I'm going to go with thethudelh's comment. While not religious this sympbol has been there a lot longer. As long as the symbol isn't used to force people to be Catholic then there is no harm in it. For example while visiting friends in Canada I noticed that some places have a portrait of Queen Elizabeth 2nd up but when I ask do none of my Canadian friends feel anywhere near obliged to say they have any feelings that she is their Monarch. They merely see her as a traditional figure in that it was the British that originally fought and won the right to administer that land. And ask a native and they couldn't give a rat's butt either.

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Now stand by for the European Court to rule that islamic burkas are just A-OK!

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Why thank you bushlover

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European court: No crucifixes in Italian schools

Is the headline. But the article says:

But while it fined the government, the seven-judge panel stopped short of ordering Italy to remove the crucifixes,

Can you spot the conflict?

I would like to say that the crucifixes are not a problem. As far as forcing others to become Christian, well that is not it. Take off the crucifix and that person is still Christian. Neither has anything to do with the school or the courtroom, but with the individual. And if we remove the religious individuals there won't be many left. The problem is with people who will make something of it, and with Muslims emigrating to Europe, religious symbols are going to become a problem. They should not be, and there is no logic reason they are. Its just people acting like barbarians, and its much the same with so-called religious clothing arguments. Jacqueline Kennedy-Onassis was often seen with a head scarf and Russian women used to be too. But they were not Muslim!

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WilliB: "Now stand by for the European Court to rule that islamic burkas are just A-OK!" They're gonna have to or else!

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WilliB: "Now stand by for the European Court to rule that islamic burkas are just A-OK!" They're gonna have to or else!

Ahhh, but the burka is an item of individual religious expression, while the crucifixes in question were being displayed by the state. Not the same thing, really.

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Thank you Triumvere. Not being Italian, I did not realize. I took it all to mean individual displays. I cannot believe the schools and courtrooms were displaying the cross! What were they thinking?

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Does this mean that in Muslim countries all public schools will now be expected to remove all symbols of Islam, in case it makes non-Muslims or atheists uncomfortable?

The ruling must surely have considered this...

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This ruling is correct. Catholicism is another cult type religion like the Muslim and Judaistic religions and has no place in the modern world. Come on people, do all of you still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny too? Without all these religious cults, the world would be a lot further ahead in our evolution and probably with a greater peace as well.

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Oh Hawkeye, I think Hawkins would disagree. Big Bang 13.5 Billion years ago is a fact (pretty close to one). Kind of points to the logos. Anyway, I really think competition should be introduced in school systems. Testing into the better schools as in Japan. Vouchers might be considered. Then the parents can choose what school fits the culture/values of the family. I myself prefer a Catholic School that has a strong focus on philosophy. Religion and public schools do not mix, but it has nothing of depth to offer.

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If you allow the classroom to be non-exclusive, ie as many religious symbols as the students like, then everyone will be wanting to display a larger one. (eg "Size matters." "Mine is bigger than yours.")

Unless you have a series of cubby holes, one religion per box! hahahaha...

The alternative is to ban them all from a place of learning.

But then you get the Taliban saying that schools are ungodly...

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Come on people, do all of you still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny too?" Yes, I do believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, and I believe in Aliens and Ghosts too, which is why they should be taught in school. Religion however, can't do it to bring myself to believe in a god......

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I am not religious at all, but I think the EU is sticking it's nose right in where they have no business.

In an article I read earlier, one muslim student was interviewed and she said she takes no notice of the crosses and sees no point in having them removed. At no point has a muslim caused this problem, so please don't point the finger at them. It was one woman, non-muslim.

France is a prime example of a country which ignores EU directives unless they like them, so I recommend that Italy does the same. If the EU gets snotty, threaten to leave. Don't tell me it's impossible, if a country decides to leave the EU there's bog all anyone can do to stop them. It's time someone told the EU where to get off.

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You know, if I were Jesus, I'd probably want to put that whole crucifiction thing behind me. I don't think it would go down as one of my better days. And then having all those followers constantly bringing it up...

I don't know, call me a last supper type of guy.

Taka

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The crucifix is the main symbol for Christian religions. There is no need to display it in secular schools. Seeing a crucifix hanging on the wall certainly could bother students who are not Christian. It should have no part in education. Morals and ethics can be learned without religion of any kind.

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Same old story, attack the symbol merely to attack the symbol. It has nothing to do with Italian Mother fearing for the well being of her son, it's just a way to make money and cause a stir.

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Seeing a crucifix hanging on the wall certainly could bother students who are not Christian.

Wha? I worked at a deli in dearborn for a few months when I was in highschool and they had islamic stuff all over the place and it never bothered me, true it was a private work place, but arguing that a mere religious symbol could cause somebody sever discomfort is pure stupidity. If they can't accept the fact that somebody, somewhere in the world, has the audacity to believe diffently than them they probably don't have the social or mental capacity to be in a public school anyway.

Just as a point of fact to support my earlier belief that this was just for money and attention.

Lautsi, who is of Finnish origins, and her husband, Massimo Albertin, said they were satisfied.

Thats after the courts gave them money but refused to force the schools to remove the crucifixes. Apparently they don't care enough to force the matter, they're just happy to cut and run. It was never about seperation of church and state or even about their kid, just cash and a little limelight.

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Whatever happened to majority rules?

Majority rules has never been absoulte, that why most democracies have some clauses related to tyranny of the majority. Having religulous symbols in a secular school isn't right and as long as they're consistent in banning all religulous symbols, I don't see anything wrong with it. The state shouldn't be seen favouring any one religion. Besides the cross borderlines on idolatry.

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Italy's history is intertwined with the roman catholic church. I dont think this should even be an issue its part of their heritage and history. Europeans dont go to the middle east and demand they take allah out of their classrooms but thats a different story.

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Europeans dont go to the middle east and demand they take allah out of their classrooms but thats a different story.

Soile Lautsi isn't muslim, she is Finnish/Italian who wanted her children to have a secular education, so I fail to see why what Muslims do in thier countries is in any why relevant to this story. Unless of course Muslim countries are some sort of benchmark by which all countries should aspire to be like.

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This is a travesty of justice. How come an individual is allowed to force centuries of tradition and cultural identity away from Italian children because the symbol she attacks makes -her- uncomfortable? Tolerance is a two-way road. Unfortunately narrow-minded people cannot understand this basic principle of civilized existence and prefer to push their private ego above the cultural legacy of a whole country where millions disagree with her egotism.

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Gee should Rome just destroy all symbols of Religion because someone doesn't like it? It's up to those who choose no religion to still respect the culture and origin of the place that was there. In North America they could also teach more about Aboriginal cultures as well. I wouldn't have a problem with stuff like that. I could opt for or against it in the curriculum if I had a choice. No skin off my back. If I were in Italy going to school I wouldn't care about what symbols were displayed in class as long as I wasn't being forced to become like that. As I wouldn't expect the class to give me special treatment because I'm different.

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Good, the vatican is one more step removed from the government of Italy. A win for all people as Italy claims no national religeon.

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I don't know why people put these crosses up in religious buildings for Jesus. If Jesus does return to earth, the last thing he will want to see is another cross!

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