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Fellow Americans' suspicions frustrate U.S. Muslims

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Now, Muslims are asking why their efforts to be accepted in the United States have been so easily thwarted.

Blame the targeting of Americans by extremists and quoting your holy book.

Images of violence overseas in the name of Islam have come to define the faith for many non-Muslims at home.

As this is what we see in the media. We never see the muslim world contributing to the rest of the world only trying to take it over.

Muslim leaders often respond when terrorists strike by saying Islam is a “religion of peace” that has no role in the violence instead of confronting the legitimate concerns of other Americans.

This is called burying your head in the sand.

but they have also complained bitterly about the use of informants, worried the innocent will be caught up in the net police have set for criminals.

If you want to be seen as helping to oust the radical element you have to participate actively to do it and not bury your heads in the sand. Thanks to the informants that we can keep track on the radicals.

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A few years ago, someone decided that Japanese Americans were enough of a threat to the American way of life that they should be thrown into concentration camps.

I am so happy to see that fear and bigotry are not moving Americans to do the same thing to Mexican Americans and Islamic people today. America has really come a long way.

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mikehuntez:

As this is what we see in the media. We never see the muslim world contributing to the rest of the world only trying to take it over.

Your watching the wrong channels or/and reading the wrong magazines.

This is called burying your head in the sand.

When Muslims say that terrorism is not Islam, people ignore the message and tell everybody, also on JT, that Muslims don't distance themselves with radicals and all want to take over the world.

If you want to be seen as helping to oust the radical element you have to participate actively to do it and not bury your heads in the sand. Thanks to the informants that we can keep track on the radicals.

Agree.

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http://thechronicleherald.ca/toon.php

This cartoon speaks volumes about the complexity that is 'Islamic religion'

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Heh, they're playing the victim card. How sweet. Yet, none of those who whine think 09/11 was really that bad.

On Saturday, where was the GZ Victory Mosque Imam's statement to the world condemming the violent tendencies of those who practice Islam?

RR

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I've never understood why people discriminate against all muslims just because a few claiming to be muslims have done bad things? I claim to be human, and the terrorists were human too, so does that make me a killer by association?

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Romeo, do you really believe what you wrote?

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Take a leaf out of the UK book on reacting to terrorism. We were terrorised for many a year by Irish Fanatics funded by America. We ditinguished the fanatics from the normal populace. There were some horrible people from Ireland at that time just as there was from the Britain and Northern Ireland but we didnt classify it as them and us. It was simply a bad minority doing bad things. Something Americans as a majority cant seem to grasp. Christian fanatics Vs Islam fanatics = not a match made in heaven!

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HermioneG, people like RR would. What is also ridiculous is that RR is still using the term 'GZ Victory Mosque.' Ignorance at its finest.

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Articles like this epitomize the ostrich with the head in the sand syndrome. Muslims are in a constant state of conflict with their non-Muslim neighbors all over the world. It is not only in places like the Netherlands where film director Theo Van Gogh was brutally murderered over his art or the UK where Salman Rushie continues to live under threat of death. It is in places like Thailand where Buddhist schoolchildren have been hacked to death by militant Islamists, the Phillipines where a bloody insurgency continues to go on, and Sudan where Islamic forces enslave and slaughter innocents in Darfur. It occurs in Russia where Islamic terrorists bomb apartment buildings and slaughter theater goers. Islamic terror threats tie up the intelligence agencies of Australia, Canada, Germany and virtually every modern country. Meanwhile the organized Islamic organizations only come out after attacks to call for more tolerance for themselves - despite the lack of any real backlash.

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RR, on 9-11, where was your statement to all on JT that the attacks were due to Islamic extremists only and that moderate Muslims - including those behind the NY mospue - had nothing to do with it?

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RR, NY mosque Iman Rauf has been travelling the world - on the payroll of the State Dept. under Obama and bush - preaching moderate Islam. He has been doing this for years. Please do us all a favor and keep up.

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Try as I might to be objective, the delays, indignities and inconvenience to which I am subjected every time I board an aircraft since 9/11 have badly bruised any feelings of magnanimity I may have once harboured toward practitioners of Islam. Now when one bends down to tie his shoestring, I discreetly confirm he's not applying a cigarette lighter to the end.

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Honestly, we've come a long way from the Internment Camps of WWII. There have been no rounds of Muslims, or rash of hate crimes.

CNN had this really nice blog project called "30 mosques in 30 days" or something like that, where these two young muslim americans went around visiting a different Islamic community in a different state for every day of Ramadan; the guys had been a little hesitant about what they might find along the way, what with the "Ground Zero Mosque" controversy and 9/11 comming up. They were pleasantly surprised to find that non-muslims were welcoming and accepting of them where ever they went, and the trip really made them feel "American" in a way they hadn't before.

Still, sometimes if feels like we need something like those old WWII British Air Raid posters: "Keep Calm and Carry On."

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A very timely and well-written article!

Thank you for putting it on JT.

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Triumvere: watch out. CNN is a neo-leftisto-communist, pro-sharia propaganda network [/sarcasm]

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Fear is the real enemy. Fear gave us the Patriot Act, eight years of George W. Bush, two long futile wars and endless violations of our constitutional values.

911 was a victory not only for extremists, it was for the conservatives who wanted to restrain and control our society. These opportunists have largely contributed to the ongoing fears, as it is in the interests of those in power to keep everyone afraid.

Islam is like any other faith, it has a majority of peaceful followers and, like any organization, a fringe that are off the rails. It is abasurd to blame all Muslims for the problems in their world. Just as it would be insane to blame the Christian world for the nuts and criminals in our world.

We must learn to be tolerant and to work for better understanding. The alternative is more fear, continued loss of freedom and an invitation to the creation of more extremists.

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It's hardly rational for these Muslims to expect better treatment from a country that feels the nuking of Japan was just.

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It's hardly rational for these Muslims to expect better treatment from a country that feels the nuking of Japan was just. Just look at the Enola Gay exhibit at the Smithsonian (a US government funded and administered museum) and there's your answer for why they are treated so 'paranoid suspicion'

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It's hardly rational for these Muslims to expect better treatment from a country that feels the nuking of Japan was just. Just look at the Enola Gay exhibit at the Smithsonian (a US government funded and administered museum) and there's your answer for why they are treated with such 'paranoid suspicion'

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NtionalistRE; America is less tolerant these days of many different. The A bombs though were good and have ensured global stability since 1945.

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The A bombs though were good and have ensured global stability since 1945.

Looks at War in Iraq

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I've never understood why people discriminate against all muslims just because a few claiming to be muslims have done bad things?

Yup, I know what you are saying. But, I'll be the first to say, and not proud of it, but when a Middle Eastern person walked by me on the airplane, I did have a feeling of uncertainy run up and down my spine. I'm not a person to descriminate others, but it was a feeling that I could not help. Don't get me wrong, I have friends that are Muslim and I can talk to anybody with ease...It was just that airplane incident that is stuck in my mind. Weird.

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9/11 attacks were good. If it weren't for those few Islamic fundamentalists, Afghanistan and Iraq would've never been liberated.

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There's something seriously wrong wth a religion that forbids beer.

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Read the three books of Islam. The Koran, the Hadith and the Sunna. There are muslims who are terrorists, and muslims who are not terrorists, YET.

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"We have nothing to apologize for...," said Imam Mohammed Ibn Faqih in a sermon at the Islamic Institute of Orange County in Anaheim, Calif.

And non-Muslim Americans also have nothing to apologize for. Afterall, it was/is followers of his religion who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 and continue to attempt attacks on U.S. soil.

RR

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NeoJamal: Afghanistan will return a semi-Taliban run state and Iraq will continue to be in trouble for quite a long time. Not saying that Sadam was any better.

Sarge: Saudi-Arabia was my most boring business-trip ever...

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NationalistRE Every chance you get you try to make Japan look like the victim. Why are you not angry at Tojo and the Emperor for their role in taking Japan into an unwinnable war of national suicide?

There is no comparission between 911 and 1945. But you get a gold star for effort.

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RomeoRamenII.

When a terrorist kills an American for the actions of his or her country do we think that is fair? Afterall American policy led to the anger that motivated the terrorist. So should the victim apologize?

It is absurd and backwards thinking to blame all Mulsims for the actions of a tiny few. If you really think that you should blame all Muslims collectively for the actions of a few, then you must equally sanction that all westerners are to blame for the actions of their associations.

Can you see how stupid and unreasonable such thinking is?

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America is hardly the only democracy where Muslims are feeling 'frustrated.'

"While an American preacher placed himself at the centre of an international storm by threatening to burn copies of the Koran over the weekend, a University of Queensland academic has posted an internet video of himself using a page from the Muslim holy book to roll and smoke what appears to be a joint."

Interesting times we live in...

http://www.australianews.com.au/

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Muslims are asking why their efforts to be accepted in the United States have been so easily thwarted.

Its because of the anti-Muslim propaganda from the controlled media. The moment the people realize they are being lied to by their media and governments, they will understand that Muslims are not the problem.

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"Honestly, we've come a long way from the Internment Camps of WWII. There have been no rounds of Muslims, or rash of hate crimes."

The difference is not even a matter of degree. It is only a matter of time.

@TimRussert. Yes, but to be fair, it IS the University of QL. My understanding was that he was an athiest who did that to the Bible too. Is this the guy?

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"they will understand that Muslims are not the problem"

Or rather that Muslims are the "problem of the moment." It will always be somebody. It will be Mexicans, Iranians, Chinese, Nigerians... just spin the wheel long enough and it will be YOU eventually.

It is just as put forth in 1984. Orwell had it all figured out. WHO is the enemy is not important, just so long as there is someone to point a finger at. It is the most disfunctional way of looking at life imaginable because it distracts people from the real problem. America has been at the game pretty solidly since the very early 1900s. My great grandmother had to change her name because of the Spanish American war. See how that goes? She changed it to something that sounded vaguely German, so it did not help much a few years later.

Beelz is blaming all airline security on Islam. Did you read that? And budget shortfalls in Arizona are being blamed on Mexicans. If all else fails, blaming Jews is the old fall back. They get blamed for everything. Even Palin and Limbaugh aren't the crux of America's blame game. They are just taking advantage of the people who want to play.

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"Yes, but to be fair, it IS the University of QL."

Fair to whom - - all the Americans people like you so casually slander as racist and bigoted?

Does it matter what university employs this "hater" ? - as the authoritarian Left instantly labeled the nutty Florida pastor.

I thought the secular Left held university profs to much higher standards than the clergy...

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Muslims are not the problem. Their holy book is. And the few that interpret it as a call to war. A few of what was that number? A billion is still quite a lot.

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" How many more times will they have to condemn violent extremism before non-Muslim Americans believe them? "

Well, how about really condemn it without buts and ifs? You don´t see much of that. Typical the "condemnation" from muslim leaders is coached in terms of "the US/Israel made them do it" or the like.

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"Yes, but to be fair, it IS the University of QL."

I think that is just an Australia related inside joke, not referring to Americans or any left wing/right wing attitudes. I got it, and look forward to angry posts from sensitive Queenslanders.

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I don't think I have heard any condemnation of islamic extremism from any muslims. They will earn my trust when I can eat my hot pork rinds in one of their "community centers".

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I think that is just an Australia related inside joke, not referring to Americans or any left wing/right wing attitudes. I got it, and look forward to angry posts from sensitive Queenslanders.

Again - - why the different standards? If an American burns the Koran it can only mean one thing and one thing only. When an Australian does the same it is proof of what - - how flippant, how irreverent and cool Aussie academics can be?

Apparently it is no joke to the uni where the lawyer teaches part-time. He is now on leave and expects to lose his job there.

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mikehuntez: "Muslims are not the problem. Their holy book is. And the few that interpret it as a call to war."

Likewise the people who interpret that it is an evil book are the problem. I agree 100% that HOW people interpret it is critical, and as such my above comment, and my next.

TimRussert: "Again - - why the different standards? If an American burns the Koran it can only mean one thing and one thing only. When an Australian does the same it is proof of what - - how flippant, how irreverent and cool Aussie academics can be?"

Different standards according to whom? I don't think what the person did was good at all, whether he's smoked a page instead of burning hundreds of copies of the book, or whether he was doing it as a 'joke'. Relax, man. You are on here LOOKING for double standards, and so you're going to see them in the slightest of comments that don't hold the sire ire as with the moronic pastor. There are obvious differences in the case, but that doesn't make either acceptable.

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TimRussert "- as the authoritarian Left instantly labeled the nutty Florida pastor. I thought the secular Left held university profs to much higher standards than the clergy..."

A. What authoritarian left are you referring to? No such thing exists, are you in some alternate reality?

B. I think most left leaning people would say that the level of esteem they hold someone in is directly related to what that person's character. I know many clergy who are well worthy of a great deal of respect. Such a weird generalization must also be a part of your alternative reality.

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People will always be stupid.

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goddog: amen

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I cant wait until an atheist majority discriminates against the religious minority.

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The difference is not even a matter of degree. It is only a matter of time.

A remark like this makes me wonder if you've ever even set foot in this country.

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space_monkey

I cant wait until an atheist majority discriminates against the religious minority

There is no aetheist majority , anywhere, anytime.

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There have been many great Muslims in US such as Malcolm X, Muhammed Ali. US should pride itself of cultural diversity and cultural tolerance. That's what makes US a great country for many people around the world.

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semperfi: "There is no aetheist majority , anywhere, anytime."

Spelled 'aetheist', you're right, there's not. But as for ATHEIST, I think it depends, really. I mean, according to statistics more than 50% of Japanese are Buddhist, but they don't practice, marry at Shinto Shrines or gawdy fake chapels (or both), but it's hard to seriously claim a lot of them are 'religious' as opposed to Atheist. Likewise there are a lot of people baptized as Christian that you cannot claim are religious.

Anyway.

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The article doesn't mention the media's role in the portrayal of Muslims. Muslims in the US just don't really have any kind of exposure unless it's something negative.

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"I cant wait until an atheist majority discriminates against the religious minority."

Have a comfy seat friend, you will be waiting a very long time. People are superstitious, afraid and looking for someone to tell them what to do. As long as these factors remain a part of human nature, there will be some kind of religion in the world and the mainstream masses will be following it.

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Have a comfy seat friend, you will be waiting a very long time. People are superstitious, afraid and looking for someone to tell them what to do. As long as these factors remain a part of human nature, there will be some kind of religion in the world and the mainstream masses will be following it.

In Sweden the majority of the people are non believers. Do not believe in god. We are talking about close to 90% of the people do not believe in Jesus Christ.

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I think that the QL slight got twisted around. I was not saying it was ok to burn religious books, even though I am ok with that, reluctantly. No, I was making the point that QL is, in many ways, the Florida of Australia. You can expect things to happen in FL and QL that just don't happen in the real world. Am I right? I think that recent events kind of bear that out. If there is anyone from QL sensitive to that, please chime in. Every country apparently has places like this. I am beginning to think that Fukuoka is Japan's Florida, but I am still researching that.

And Triumvere, oh that you were right. Ethnic, racial and religious persecution in the US goes so far back. To quote TimRussert "a real American would know that." Malcolm X? M. Ali? Are they symbols of American tolerance, or symbols of institutional persecution and personal defiance? Camps for Japanese Americans? What about camps for native Americans? Malcolm and Martin did not see a few incidents marring an otherwise benevolent society. They saw institutionalized and deep seated prejudices continuing from the 3/5ths compromise through slavery, through discriminatory voting laws, to segregation.

What has Arpaio in Arizona made for hispanic people if it is not a concentration camp? If you cannot look at the US from that perspective, then setting foot on US soil is not going to make a bit of difference. Rodney King did not live in a gated community, so his perspective is likely to differ from yours too.

Triumvere, we will see how it turns out. Read the article again. I see a lot of the same frustrations that other minorities have felt in the US in the past. Do you? If this is not a pattern, then it must be a phase. But if it is just a phase, then why does it keep repeating? If Muslims have nothing to fear from the enlightened US populace, then why are they fearful?

You would not believe how opposite this view is to one that I recorded in about 2000. I am on record saying at that time that I thought that the US was a beacon of hope for nations with many ethnic groups wanting to live together in peace. I certainly do not feel that way now. I am shocked at the ugliness that has come out against black people and people of other religions in recent years. Did all the hate come from somewhere, or was it always there? Looking at where it is coming from, I think it was always there, and it is gathering steam.

I will say it again: it is only a matter of time before it gets worse.

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Many Americans are suspicious of non white Americans.That is nothing new in itself.

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Watched a cool doco called 'the third jihad' made by an American Muslim of arab descent.He rallies against Islamic extremism and the doco outlines how so many of the so-called moderate muslims around the worl and in the US say they are pro-peace and yet secretly send money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad and are blatant in their aim to convert the world to Shariah Islam. Most are Wahabbi freaks but the Quran makes no secret of the infidel status of non-muslims and what should be done with them. Religious freedom? Non-muslims cannot enter Mecca and yet Muslims complain when they see Christmas decorations and pictures of pigs in our societies. In Australia a great many of these pious muslims have no problem with murder,selling drugs and guns and sexually intimidating women and yet the minute they are apprehended they grow a beard and call for Allah the merciful and they are the victims.

Western Society (non-muslim society) continues to give Muslims the freedom of religion and speech they clamour for but where do you see that mirrored in Islamic countries? Nowhere. The burqa bans and the like that are happening now in Europe indicate that finally after hundreds of years the Europeans have woken up to the truth regarding 'peaceful' Islam and what hides behind the facade.

I am not religious but I don't trust Islam and I don't want Shariah forced on any society I live in.Others are free to choose what they want.

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I am on record saying at that time that I thought that the US was a beacon of hope for nations with many ethnic groups wanting to live together in peace.

Most Tolerant nation and greatest nation on the planet. She just asks a very simple question......Why at ground zero? All she asks, proud of her tolerance and wants peace just asks 'Why at ground zero?'.... Proud of country and proud of her city, proud of the great muslim moderates that our her her neighbors, and just asks that simple question to him..'Why at ground zero?'...He can't answer because he doesn't peace he wants his political agenda more, just like so many others here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS5eMK7dOEE

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Now, Muslims are asking why their efforts to be accepted in the United States have been so easily thwarted.

Blame the targeting of Americans by extremists and quoting your holy book.

Substitute the word 'Americans' for 'anyone who offends Islam' and you are bang on the money.

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What does Kareem Abdul-Jabbar have to say about this?

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mikehuntez: "Blame the targeting of Americans by extremists and quoting your holy book."

No, blame those who target anyone else, bottom line, including radical Christian nutbags from the US who target all of Islam for the actions of a percentile that starts with 0.00 and then goes a few more zeroes before even being close to accurate.

"As this is what we see in the media. We never see the muslim world contributing to the rest of the world only trying to take it over."

I find it funny you follow this comment with "heads in the sand", since the Muslim world has contributed plenty. But we always see this from bigots; they demand to know where the condemnation is from Muslims for terrorists acts, and then when it comes they say, and I literally quote many of you from this site (for example with the terrorist shooting attacks in the Indian incident in 2008, for example, "Actions speak louder than words". And when they acted, you turned around and said, "Too little too late". Basically, you NEED someone to point a finger at, and being that Muslims are currently the world's 'whipping boy' (to borrow another poster's words) they make an easy target. When your ridiculous and hypocritical demands are met you claim to be unsatisfied and claim it's the 'end of story'.

"This is called burying your head in the sand."

Couldn't have said it better; what you guys do is EXACTLY that.

"If you want to be seen as helping to oust the radical element you have to participate actively to do it and not bury your heads in the sand. Thanks to the informants that we can keep track on the radicals."

They have done plenty, you just refuse to see it. What's more, you talk on and on and on about heads in the sand like yours is, and about radicals like a bunch of Christians that have cropped up as late (and it's a shame you didn't learn from the lesson of the pastor). The ironic part is that you thank the informants in your last comment but deride those who lash out against having suspicion against said informants based solely on their appearance. In other words, you stand up for people who spit on people who are exactly the same as the informants while you purport to support them (the informants).

Now... would you like to talk about heads and sand again, Mike?

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Sailwind, for the umpteenth time, the mosque is not at ground zero. It is 2 blocks away. Stop propagating ideas you know are false.

You think the U.S. is the most tolerant nation on Earth? Really? You clearly don't live there. The socio-religious divide has been growing ever since you helped vote bush in. As usual with Americans these days, it is the ones who complain the loudest who helped create the very problems they are complaining about whether it be debt, a collapsing economy, unfounded religious persecution, you name it.

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Sailwind. If America stands for anything, then that Islamic community center should just be built, period. That discussion took place on another thread. It is done as far as I am concerned.

My point is that it is always going to be something or someone getting run down by some hillbilly mob in the US. Whether it is a gay guy in Wyoming dragged behind a truck, or people in robes in Chicago being roughed up or a synagogue in Bel Air getting swastikas all over it. It is thuggery. There are places in the world without that, so call the US the greatest country in the world, but it is slipping on all measures, isn't it? And its principles appear to be going first and fastest.

Somebody flipped a switch on 9/11 and the US just went dark. Somebody decided early on that force had to be met with force. Nobody thought about taking the high road. And here is where the low road leads. If you believe the worst about Islamic people, you know you will have to kill them all. Look at your rhetoric and motives and where it leads and you will see the abyss that any Muslim moderate must confront when they try to hope for a better future.

It is not just Manhattan. These days they can't build a mosque anywhere. They will have to leave the country just to worship. What do you think about that?

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Klein2 - "Somebody flipped a switch on 9/11 and the US just went dark."

That is arguably the most insightful, all-encompassing and accurate quote that has been posted on JT for many a year.

Thank you for posting it.

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That is arguably the most insightful, all-encompassing and accurate quote that has been posted on JT for many a year.

The entire post was terrific.

Of course there are those who will claim that anyone who professes that the United States is not the most tolerant and greatest nation must "hate America." Providing examples of intolerance really angers them.

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Ethnic, racial and religious persecution in the US goes so far back.

You could say the same of any other country; slavery, segregation and immigration make racism give racism a more prominent place in American history, but that does not necessarily make American racism more intense that that in other parts of the globe. And to assert that nothing has changed in this country since the civil rights era (let alone the Indian Wars) strikes me as either ignorant or disingenuous.

Undoubtably Muslim immigrants in the US will have to go through some of the same difficult integration process that an new immigrant community must before gaining full acceptance (or as near to it as current predjudice will allow). But I'll wager the experience of most new Muslim immigrants is far better than that of the first waves of Irish or Chinese to come to these shores. Race relations do not stay frozen in some sort of temporal stasis.

As for Aprio's brand of facist thuggery, I see it as an outlier. Indeed it stands in stark contrast to the common experience of most Americans. We are undoubtably seeing some push-back on racial issues as of current, but I think that this is pretty much an inevitable reaction to the shattering of one of the last major civil rights barriers with the election of a black president. This too will pass; the pendulum swing slightly back after every major advance, but will never return to the days of segregation. The over all narrative is one of forward progress.

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And budget shortfalls in Arizona are being blamed on Mexicans.

Some of the budget shortfall is not all of it.

Lebanon and Palestine were countries where different peoples and religions

Palestine is not a country/independent country, it has never been historically an independent country.

It is not just Manhattan. These days they can't build a mosque anywhere. They will have to leave the country just to worship. What do you think about that?

That is not true at all, in fact several mosques have opened all over the US since this issue began, in fact one just recently opened right next a baptist church and synagogue in Pennsylvania I believe just outside of Philadelphia. In fact the number of mosques from 2001 has increased from 1200 to 1900. So I completely disagree and am insulted by you saying mosques can't be built anywhere in the USA when in fact mosques have been opening all over the US just this past week.

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That is not true at all, in fact several mosques have opened all over the US since this issue began, in fact one just recently opened right next a baptist church and synagogue in Pennsylvania I believe just outside of Philadelphia. In fact the number of mosques from 2001 has increased from 1200 to 1900. So I completely disagree and am insulted by you saying mosques can't be built anywhere in the USA when in fact mosques have been opening all over the US just this past week.

Keeping things in perspective is critically important; unless one continually strives to see the big picture, it is extemely easy to have one's view skewed by "noisy" outliers.

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All that 9/11 stuff about a Muslim mosque in NY near WTC sounds like Nero fiddling while Rome burned. Americans have much more serious problems to worry about than this. It is a tempest in a teapot (or really a tempest in a thimble). Nobody should care.

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Doubt this article changed many minds back in the states. People respond to actions not words. Most Americans view the followers of the "religion of peace" as hostile because of the non-stop violence between the different flavors of muslims and non-believers that they see overseas where the majority of muslims live.

RR

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djuice: They will earn my trust when I can eat my hot pork rinds in one of their "community centers".

If your goal is to be able to do something that you believe to be offensive to them, why should they be concerned about "earning" your trust? You might as well say that they will not earn your trust unless they allow you to burn the Qur'an.

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Join the club. Discrimination is everywhere in the world. Especially the middle east. Oh zing!

So don't feel bad, every country is screwing over every other country's people sooner or later.

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sailwind: She just asks a very simple question......Why at ground zero?

Here's my very simple question....Why misrepresent the truth?

Ground Zero is defined by the point of the attack and by the area which has been set aside to commemorate the events. It is not defined ad hoc by the furthest reaches of recognizable parts from the planes, or of dust from the buildings destroyed or of recombined molecules of people who died there.

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suzu, and what of the american armed forces, why not list all the places they have been to and lives they have taken overseas, not to mention being the only country to ever drop a bomb, oh no wait, my mistake, TWO bombs.

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Here's my very simple question....Why misrepresent the truth?

Sezwho,

Okay, I’ll rephrase her question to make it more palatable to you to continue to avoid answering it anyway. ‘How come so close to Ground Zero’?

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Sailwind.

I would assume that property close to Ground Zero is rather cheap right now.

Why, many of the remaining buildings I would assume are condemned and need to be torn down and rebuild.

Also they wanted a community centre close to their existing mosque to take the growing number of muslims in that area.

So I think it is more of an economical decision than a faith based one or trying to rub one in on Nyers.

My guess is you will see quiet a few buildings being torn down and rebuild and the character of the area will change.

Similar to what is happening in Akihabara, many of the buildings got condemned years ago and the area been changing for the last 10+yrs. Not just in buildings but also in shops, businesses, clientele, etc as people take advantage of cheaper property and rental prices.

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smithinjapan: Now... would you like to talk about heads and sand again, Mike?

Yes Mr. Smith I would. You are here telling me that people say "too little too late." and the like because well it is exactly that. Don't say silly things like "Islam is a religion of peace" when we keep hearing radicals quote it from it's holy book. They obviously get their ideas from somewhere.

I am thankful to the informants because they are being responsible. Maybe it's better that they are less visible for their own safety. But they should not wonder why Americans look on them with suspicion. They'll have to accept that because of the ones they are keeping their eye on in the mosque is one of them which is making all the group look bad. Most radicals hide in the group and then when something happens the group gets looked on suspiciously. That's just human nature. Now I don't advocate violence against them based on suspicion. I'm sure some rednecks would though. But they are also not representative of the greater whole. However it is you who says that Americans are wrong in their suspicion and that they are all bigots but you seem to give carte blanche to anyone that is muslim without a second doubt about their real intentions. This to me is a head in the sand approach. Thanks for participating in it.

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Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand. Ignorance and prejudice, and fear walk hand in hand...

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"Somebody flipped a switch on 9/11 and the US just went dark."

Wow. I guess some people have a problem with Obama's middle name and his ethnic background...

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Not all muslims are jihadists, but all jihadists are muslims. Trying separate islam from jihadism is, by definition, keeping the head firmly planted in the sand.

And to the degree that the non-jihadist muslims asking us to do that, they are enablers.

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sailwind: Okay, I’ll rephrase her question to make it more palatable to you to continue to avoid answering it anyway. ‘How come so close to Ground Zero’?

I don't know for sure. Do you? What's the answer and why does it matter? It's an area zoned for churches, among other types of structures.

You don't have to make your questions more palatable. You should, however, resist the temptation to make things up. One thing that you have made up is that the person who asks "why at ground zero" is asking a legitimate question. Questions that have false predicates are not legitimate. Another thing you have made up is that I have avoided answering that question. I have already said that I think the site was chosen, among other reasons, for its proximity. When you claim that it is indecent for Muslims to build there, you have made that up. There is no inherent indecency in the location. And if you think that it was chosen to declare an Islamic victory, that's something else you have made up.

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I'll be the first to admit that I've wrongly fallen into the regrettable thinking of the non-Islamic masses in the US that Islam is a religion of intolerance, repression and violence due to its laws and ideas that there should be 'no others'. Of course ignoring the old Christian "Do not have any other gods before me" which states basically the same thing. And admittedly I haven't read enough about Islam to know exactly what it teaches and if it truly dictates that the 'infidel' - us non-Muslims - should be expunged.

Much of this is media hype. The same media that constantly makes us think the world is on the edge of mass destruction and chaos. Chaos and destruction sell 'newspapers' or the electronic media that have replaced them. But I think it's fair to say that some of the critical eye cast upon Islam is defend-able. Look at the Christian wackos - the Waco crowd, this idiot in Florida, McVeigh and other fringe groups. Usually they live in groups in armed compounds, or plot one-off crazy schemes. Not so for the Islamic wackos. They go to terrorist training camps based in the ME and have access to a network of funding, intelligence and resources. And they come from the unexpected; people knew the folks living on the compound at Waco were nuts. The 9/11 hijackers were sort of 'the guy next door' types who lived in communities amongst us, then coldly planned the murder of thousands. I'm not saying there aren't killers among us that are Christians, Jews - whatever that can snap and do something horrible. But most of these terror attacks on the West have been well-planned and funded which is a polar opposite of your average other crazy type.

Also, you have to take into account that while it's easy to say that 'Muslims have lived in America and the west for a long time with no problems until 9/11, look more at the actual demographics and you'll discover that it wasn't really until post-9/11 that the Muslim populations in the US and other Western countries such as Britain and France really started to explode (pun not intended). When any religious minority floods into a country and suddenly becomes a measurable part of the general population - and brings in a system of religious beliefs and even a culture vastly different to the indigenous - there is bound to be a cultural clash. With the terrorist attacks carried out by admittedly a minute extremist branch of that group, multiply the problems by a thousand.

It's a tough and unfair road for the honest, normal Muslim to travel, but not surprising to see the reasons why.

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The fact is, there is no precedent for a large muslim population to peacefully integrate into non-muslim societ. Nowhere on the planet, never in history. Neither does this concept exist in current islamic dogma.

By believing the this will happen now for the first time, and simply by the virtue of being "tolerant", Western politicians are dreaming a foolish dream.

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Quite right WilliB. People seem to forget that America is still a young nation by most standards, and this idealistic blending of cultures is only successful in altruistic tv shows from the 1960's. Religion by historical precedence teaches intolerance, despite the 'love thy brother' programs usually written in. Conversely it seems to be kill any who don't believe, or convert them as Christianity tried to do to the detriment of so many throughout the world. And Islam seems to be much more stringent than Christianity, and far less forgiving of shortcomings. And being so inherently different than what those in the west are culturally used to, it begs the question whether peaceful co-existence is even possible. The US 'experiment' always seemed to be based upon the notion of 'fitting in' and becoming American first and whatever second. Not in some scary nationalistic fashion, but rather as an insular means of becoming a 'nation of one' united under a sense of freedom. You can worship an do what you want (within the law) but that is outside of your duty as an American (as corny as that might sound) and fellow citizen. With a religion that is meant to come first and encompass all, how will this work?

That will be labeled as intolerance by many here no doubt, but it is a legitimate question, and a realistic one rather than an idealistic one. I would totally agree that it would be fantastic if all mankind was a joined and coexistent entity. But we're not, nowhere even close. And while perhaps we should strive for the intangible, we have to deal with reality.

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A great conversation between two American Muslims about acceptance of Muslims in the US, Park51, and other related issues:

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/30835?in=00:00:01

For those of you who were wondering, this is what moderate, American Islam looks like.

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Talk about lack of self confidence. Honestly, the problem with muslims like this is that they think its ALL about themselves. I've said it until I'm blue in the face. I hate Islam, the religion. The people are a seperate matter in the fact that how a person acts is what determines my attitude towards them, not what they believe. I didn't dislike my uncle when I met him at first, but after spending time with him and seeing how he acted and his mindset from the way he spoke, I grew to dislike him.

Its the same as a person saying "I hate Christianity, but not christians". As for the people that attack muslims, they're the same people who would most likely attack me because my skin is dark, or they'd attack or assault an east Indian person because they "look" like they're middle eastern.

Quick note Triumvere, while the moderate American muslim does exist, there are also the polar opposite American Islamic fundamentalist (either immagrant or home-grown) that also exist. The question is, how can you tell the difference until the fundamentalist either says or does something to show their stripes (usually at the end). Wonderful rule taqiya, especially for those that like to believe everything thats told to them.

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Quick note Triumvere, while the moderate American muslim does exist, there are also the polar opposite American Islamic fundamentalist (either immagrant or home-grown) that also exist. The question is, how can you tell the difference until the fundamentalist either says or does something to show their stripes (usually at the end). Wonderful rule taqiya, especially for those that like to believe everything thats told to them.

You could say that about anyone, though, couldn't you? Not even talking about religion; how do you tell a con-man from an honest person? A sincere lover from a cheater or golddigger? A true friend from a false one? You can be assured that people were asking the same thing durring WWII about Japanese Americans (as well as German Americans, though they were harder to pick out and isolate). The answer they came up with was the internment camps. That's not the road I'd prefer to go down.

I think the best retort is to note the realatively low rate of American Muslims being radicalized to join terrorist or terrorist-supporting organizations, as compared to Muslims in Europe. If we take this is a result of superior integration, then the logical conclusion is marginalizing the American Muslims will not make us safer, but verily the opposite.

Bonus: Cordoba Initiative Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf in his own words:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/12/rauf.islam.compassion/index.html?hpt=C2

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relatively low rate? Wow I didn't know there were actually people that could read peoples minds to be able to determine what is going on in other peoples heads to determine whether they'd become a radical or not. As I said before, you can't tell what anyone thinks until they act upon their thoughts or plans.

In the case of a radicalized muslim its usually after they've either succeeded (Texas shootings) or failed (NY truck bomb). From what evidence has been recorded, it is quite easy for an Imam or any other radical muslim to give the appearance of a "moderate" peaceful one until they decide its time for them to act. Surely you must know that Mr.Rauf practices taqiya.

Islam started going wonky a long time ago, and as more recent events have been happening on an international scale, it still hasn't improved in a way that makes the rest of civilisation around the world feel safe. Sure there are different sects, and some sects may teach a different ideal of Islam than another, but even you can't refute the fact that what kind of peaceful religion eminates from a "prophet" that was a warlord until the very end and created "holy" laws that he himself broke if they weren't convenient. Jesus and his military of 12 disciples went around pillaging and conquering nations with the sword? And Bhudda with his followers invaded and fought wars whilst spouting his philosophy as well? Ghandi must have been quite the genocidal maniac with his ideas.

Islam is a religion created by a bandit warlord that did not embrace peace when he got enough military power to conquer those who either rejected his ideals, or had something he wanted. If Mohammed had never commited the atrocities or even gave them up before he started his philosphical delusions, Islam more than likely would have become quite a wonderful religion, but one can not embrace Islamic ideals without embracing the mindset of a very deluded and warped man such as Mohammed.

As was mentioned before, some Imams know this and have asked for Islam to be reformed completely, and they get their lives threatened for entertaining such ideas. This leaves the only option of judging people by their actions and not their religious beliefs. Mr. Rauf refuses to try to remove the mosque, even though he KNOWs it is agitating a LOT of people. His actions are speaking louder than his taqiya.

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The "rate of radicalization" is indeed linked to action - including self-affiliation with "radical" groups as determined by the FBI, rather than an attempt to read the minds of American Muslims. So far we've seen very few American Muslims participating in domestic terror attacks or going oversees to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan. (There was a rash of Somali teens going to fight in Somalia, but I am not sure of the extent.)

Saying Islam is X because Mohammed or the Koran says X doesn't really track. It's like saying that Christianity is Y because Christ or the Bible said Y. We all know that Christians do not follow every proscription their holy books and that many of them should probably spend a good deal more time reflecting on their savior's teachings. I may have my own theological disputes with Islam, but the fundamental truth remains that religion is naught but interpretation; it is a critical mistake to make inferences based on theology that are unconnected to the way a religion is practiced in real life.

Finally, the whole "taqiya" thing is a rhetorical catch 22. Imam Rauf (or any other Muslim for that matter) cannot possibly "prove" that he is a moderate as any "moderate" activity or comment he exhibits will be declared to be "taqiya" by critics. The mosque is a bit of a red herring, as refusing to change the mosque location doesn't "prove" anything as far as his being a radical or not is concerned (there are plenty of "legitimate" reasons to stand by the mosque location, even if you personally do not agree with them). And, even if he were to move the mosque, his critics could still declare this as an instance of "taqiya".

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Because you know christians follow the teachings of Jesus, not the old testament. As I said, if Jesus was walking around murdering people like Mohmammed then christians wouldn't be who they are today and I'd be just as rabid against christianity as I am against Islam. Islam is the teachings of Mohammed and his followers, check out the hilarious propaganda posters in NY that start with, "Mohammed believed in Human Rights, so do I" fiasco. As for the "Arabization" seems you forget that Mohammed was an arab, and Islam orignated from Arabia. So its not that Islam is being "Arabized", its being what it was in the first place. And taqiya isn't a catch 22, its a RULE in the qur'an to help decieve the enemy who doesn't believe in Islam. Triumvere you need to listen to apostates, they obviously don't assume what Islam is as you do, the know what Islam is. You only listen to muslims that are still close to protecting their religion and will do practically anything to avoid criticism of it. There are organizations full of apostates from Islam that left of their own free will. Many of them from Iran, Arabia, Indonesia, Africa, India, and even the US, UK, and EU and many many other countries. Why on earth would a large group of people from a specific religion turn around and start their own vocal resistance against the worlds 2nd largest religion that they came from? Do you assume they are just like disgruntled workers that didn't like how low the pay was and decided to hold a strike? Even people that leave religions like buddism christianity, hindi etc, don't go off and start forming anti-buddist, christian, hindi organizations that focus on eliminating their former religious beliefs.

As much as you want to believe Islam is white where its actually black or blue when its actually red, one cannot makes something into something that it is not just by believing it. Good old christian saying, "You can not get bad fruit from a good tree and you can not get good fruit from a bad tree. Only a good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree only bears bad fruit." Islam has bad roots, and nothing good has come of it so far.

You're also once again avoiding the fact the the majority of Americans and some American muslims that desire to avoid conflict of interests and emotions on the location. If Rauf moved the mosque thanks to the agitation it caused it would show he is more willing to avoid conflict, and try to resolve the issue in a peaceful manner, instead of butting heads with the majority of American society. He could not be called out for taqiya, as he did with that idiot pastor in FL that said he'd stop his plan to burn qur'ans if Rauf moved the mosque, which Rauf reneged on that, as well as the "meeting" he was supposed to have with the idiot pastor, but reneged on that too.

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Because you know christians follow the teachings of Jesus, not the old testament.

Do I know this? There are a lot-of-fire and brimstone types that put the old testiment first and Jesus' teachings a distant second. You see plenty of "christians" who decry homosexuality, but have no problem with divorce, even though Jesus had nothing to say about the former and explictly prohibited the latter.

Good old christian saying, "You can not get bad fruit from a good tree and you can not get good fruit from a bad tree. Only a good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree only bears bad fruit." Islam has bad roots, and nothing good has come of it so far.

If you are so utterly convinced that Islam, by it's very nature, is corrupt and invariably corrupts everything it touches, then there is no point in discussing it with you. I would think you'd only have to read Rumi to disabuse yourself of that notion, but I suppose you'd just tell me that Sufism is "taqiya".

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I want to see how Saudis would react to say, some non Muslim building being built in their country?? They would have a revolution and start cutting off the heads of all the non Muslims, so I think it is time for a boycott of all Saudi oil, until they understand how pissed off the entire world really is, then, and only then can we take them seriously. Until then, sure, everyone will think they are spies and terrorists.

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I want to see how Saudis would react to say, some non Muslim building being built in their country?? They would have a revolution and start cutting off the heads of all the non Muslims, so I think it is time for a boycott of all Saudi oil

good luck with the oil boycott hahahaha, comedy gold. keep it up!

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...because clearly Saudi Arabia is the benchmark for all Muslim behavior.

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Triumvere at 01:30 AM JST - 17th September ...because clearly Saudi Arabia is the benchmark for all Muslim behavior.

No, but if you look at this map (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Countries_with_Sharia_rule.png) the countries that are under Sharia law... well, cross-reference it to Amnesty International and you have a pretty clear correlation between Sharia Law and Human Rights violations. Now of course correlation doesn't mean causation, but it's a pretty good start in terms of where to look for a problem.

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Then the muslims can leave the USA if they don't feel comfortable.

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As I said Triumvere, I'm not the one decieving myself about Islam, you apparantly are. Talk and listen to muslim apostates, if you believe that they're lying(considering they've had much more exposure to Islam and it's different aspects as former believers) than you or I have had then I also have nothing more to say to you.

I find it quite interesting that no muslim can effectively debate or sidetrack an ex-muslim about Islam. Not a SINGLE ONE out of all the debates out there.

Council of ex Muslims, and faithfreedom org (a very good forum you should read), as well as apostates of Islam, and on the other side of the fence the muslims that think Islam needs to be reformed at reformislam org. Please tell me (and them) how they have got Islam all wrong and are "mis-informed". That would be quite a laugh.

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How ironic that while in this article the audience is yet again asked to treat islam as just another religion, on the same page we read about yet another person (Molly Norris) having to go into hiding because of of serious death treats from muslims. For the crime of.... drum roll... inventing a "draw Mohammed day".

But don´t count on any condemnation of the death fatwah from the moderate muslim mainstream. They are too busy complaining about how they are unfairly treated with suspicion.

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WilliB.

How are her actions different from lets says asking for "cartoons" against african-americans, Gays, etc.

She would have gotten as many death-threats.

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It is indeed sad that in the first nation founded on religious freedom (the U.S.A.), we find a religion (Islam) that is totally unwilling to recognize/respect the rights and views of others (non-Muslims).

The hardcore Muslim is not the exception - rather, he is the rule, and the watered-down practitioners (moderates) are the exceptions. Islam, as Muslims freely declare, is based on the word of God - so how can any human question the word of God? Based on this one sentence, all non-Muslims are just wrong.

It is hard to be understanding toward the practitioners of a religion that do not believe any other religion has the right to exist.

Accepting the unacceptable is not acceptable to me.

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