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Five killed, 44 shot in night of violence in Chicago

37 Comments
By JOSHUA LOTT

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@dzimmerm1956

Not sure where you're getting your info, but a typical gun on the street is not going to cost $500, more like $50. A better quality pistol (ie: not a hi-point) might cost you a couple hundred. These guns are usually stolen, so markup is not a thing for the average gangbanger.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Yes, America is higher than western Europe but there could be many environmental and genetic reasons for this. The people who came to settle America were probably much more restless and non-conformist than the average European, which is why they wanted to leave Europe. Many may have been escaping the stigma of a criminal past. You also had to be significantly more aggressive to succeed in colonial America than in sophisticated European cities. It's interesting to consider how all of this might affect crime rates today.

Agree with the environmental and genetic reasons you mentioned and in those cases even a stronger legislation might fail. Above all a change of mindset is needed which takes, understandable, a few generations.

In the second part of your comment you mention the 2.6 figure is inflated because more interracial murders are committed by blacks and hispanics.

I realise that you love to get close the European figures but with the already low European figures I showed above you could say that the white figure is inflated too with the homocides committed by non-white minorities among themselves and towards whites.

We don't have such sophisticated stats as in the US and we don't need them either.

Anyway it's a trend in the West that the figures are declining so something sinks in.

Take notice that in several EU countries like Belgium and Germany citizens own a lot of weapons for hunting and sport. They only don't brag about it and know the consequences of abuse.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Netgrump

But with 2.6 for whites it's not a bit higher but a lot higher.

Yes, America is higher than western Europe but there could be many environmental and genetic reasons for this. The people who came to settle America were probably much more restless and non-conformist than the average European, which is why they wanted to leave Europe. Many may have been escaping the stigma of a criminal past. You also had to be significantly more aggressive to succeed in colonial America than in sophisticated European cities. It's interesting to consider how all of this might affect crime rates today.

Also, one major problem with using homocide victimisation as a statistic needs some explaining. What it actually means is that 2.6 out of ever 100,000 whites are murdered ever year. It looks only at victims and not perpetrators of homicide because in some cases the perpetrator is never caught or acquitted on some technicality. However, because we know that homocide is a largely intra-racial phenomenon (blacks mostly kill other blacks, whites mostly kill other whites) we can use it as a rough proxy for perpetrators of homocide. Unfortunately, more inter-racial murders are committed by blacks and hispanics against whites than vice versa so that 2.6 figure is actually inflated. If you filtered out interracial homocide (something you could never do unless you solved every murder) it could be the case that the white homicide victimization rate in America would be closer to European levels, but I still still think it would be noticeably higher due to the historical factors I mentioned above.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The common claim is that countries with more guns have higher murder rates. https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Homicide-rates-across-all-countries.jpg Does seem to back that up. The USA has an extremely high rate of gun ownership when compared anywhere else, but the murder rates are in the lower half. How does correlation and causation work again? Eeeeent. Try again.

Compare Japan and Iceland and Germany ownsership and murder rates.

The arguments need to use real data or we're back to the whole climate change debate where at least the facts stand up to show what is happening regardless of what head-in-the-sand politicians and coal/oil companies want the world to think.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

What the world sees but does not recognize is that much of the rampant violence are rival gangs fighting over turf, (drug selling or prostitution areas in various parts of the city).

One way to lower this would be to remove the funding from the gangs by removing the laws that make drugs illegal. Laws against prostitution are also used as a way for gangs to make money by controlling territory and charging a protection tax on prostitutes.

The USA did a grand experiment many decades ago called Prohibition, in which all alcohol sales were made illegal. That experiment empowered organized crime and gave it the funding it needed to become embedded into the USA society. Did the USA learn from Prohibition? It would seem not, as we are prohibiting drugs and sex just like we tried to prohibit alcohol.

Guns, especially illegal ones, are not cheap. I could buy a cheap HiPoint pistol for around $100.00 from a licensed gun dealer. For someone on the street that same cheap gun might cost them $500.00. A high markup and the reason people are willing to risk prison to buy for others who are not allowed to purchase firearms themselves due to past felony convictions or domestic abuse misdemeanor convictions.

Due to the money being made via drug and sex sales buying an overpriced cheap gun is possible and even likely.

Remove the funding, legalize recreational drugs, legalize prostitution, and help stop the organizations that are racking up our gun deaths.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

 The overall homocide victimisation rate in America is 5.7 per 100,000 (CDC 2015). But when you break that down by race, it's 2.6 for whites (which is less than countries like Estonia and Latvia but still a bit higher than Western Europe) 

Well, I've the UN 2016 figures with 5.35 per 100.000 for the US. But with 2.6 for whites it's not a bit higher but a lot higher.

Italy [ mafia country, large number of immigrants, refugees] 0.67

UK [multicultural country/ religious problems] 1.2

France {multucultural country/ religious problems] 1.23

Germany [multicultural country, 1 million refugees] 0.88

My country [ 50% homocides narcotics/gang related] 0.73

So there's still a way to go in the US that you can have a chat about politics without being afraid to get shot or that an Indian guy can walk around without fear to get shot by some lunatic who thinks that he's muslim :)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Seeing as gun deaths are not replaced by different methods of killing in countries where guns are illegal, it seems it probably is true.

But we're talking about countries where they are legal.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Seeing as gun deaths are not replaced by different methods of killing in countries where guns are illegal, it seems it probably is true.

But 'Replaced' might be the wrong word here seeing as high rates of murder never existed in places like Idaho and Toronto. If you ran an experiment which effectively removed guns in places like Chicago, St. Louis or Baltimore and murders went down, that would be real evidence for this 'cool down theory'. Unfortunately it's probably impossible to run the experiment on such a large scale.

I think Wolfpack's comment on the breakdown of black families is far more plausible when you look at the numbers. Perhaps that combined with a toxic culture that glorifies violence, gangs, making easy money etc, which seems to have taken hold of young people in the black community. As uncomfortable and controversial as it might be for some to discuss, race is by far the most prominent thing which jumps out at you when looking at American gun and murder stats. The overall homocide victimisation rate in America is 5.7 per 100,000 (CDC 2015). But when you break that down by race, it's 2.6 for whites (which is less than countries like Estonia and Latvia but still a bit higher than Western Europe) but for blacks it jumps to an incredible 20.7. Missouri had a black homocide victimisation rate of 46.24 in 2015 (Violence Policy Center), meaning that if it were a separate country it would be in the top 10 of highest murder rates in the world. Perhaps banning all weapons would help solve the immediate problem, but there does seem to be a far deeper issue to solve over the longterm.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

If only this were true.

Seeing as gun deaths are not replaced by different methods of killing in countries where guns are illegal, it seems it probably is true.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

This culture developed under the progressive policies of democratic party leaders going back generations. There was a point in time in the early 1900’s when black family units were more intact than white families. Progressives and their socialist policies have destroyed the lives of millions of black Americans. Not to mention Margaret Sanger’s abortion policies, and her association with the KKK, meant to rid America of the unfit.

Interesting, so what's your forecast politically?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

In the absence of activist judges who simply ignore the words written in the Constitution and the settled law stating that citizens have the individual right to own a gun, the Constitution will need to be amended to ban them. If the Constitution is to be considered a “living document” it is only through the amendment process that makes it so.

But let us posit that the Left is able through either amendment or activist judges to ban legal gun ownership America would still have to wage a war on guns similar to the failed war on drugs. If America’s porous borders cannot stop all the illegal drugs coming through Mexico (and fentenol from China) how do you propose stopping cartels from making gun running into a huge new business opportunity? Drugs from Mexico are distributed to every city, town, and village in the whole country. Perhaps a wall might help but Dems don’t want that.

How hard would it be for the gangs in Chicago to buy guns along with the drugs in order to protect their territory and drug business? The vast majority of the killings that occurred early Saturday morning took place in 4 police districts by gang members. The facts are that these districts are composed of primarily minority citizens from single parent homes dominated by gangs and a dysfunctional community culture.

This culture developed under the progressive policies of democratic party leaders going back generations. There was a point in time in the early 1900’s when black family units were more intact than white families. Progressives and their socialist policies have destroyed the lives of millions of black Americans. Not to mention Margaret Sanger’s abortion policies, and her association with the KKK, meant to rid America of the unfit.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Or the lower numbers could mean that a significant proportion of people who 'want to murder' cool down and change their minds when they find getting hold of the most efficient tool is such a hassle?

If only this were true.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

What a VIOLENT country the USA is -- what is wrong with them??

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Most of Chicago's gun laws were found to be unconstitutional, so they don't exist. Surrounding states have some very weak gun laws because that what their citizens want. Big city problems don't matter too much to small town and rural peoples. Gun violence seems to be a city problem AND it is more common to lower-income parts of the city.

https://heyjackass.com/2018-race-of-victim-assailant/ shows some interesting charts.

https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/ has Chicago details for each victim.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/social-media-street-chicago-gang-culture-fueling-violence/ blames social media for much of the youth on youth violence. We should ban all social media, for the children.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Chicago Democrat: We need President Trump's help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XBVl23z0d8

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Can’t blame Trump for this. so instead of blaming the members of the groups doing it, the Dem leadership of the city or talking about the sanctuary city status, just blame the gun.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Logic is what's going on.

OK, like semi autos are the gun of choice for mass murders.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Japan should be number one in the world with murders then. What's going on?

Clearly, there is no reason to speculate that the lowest levels of gun ownership will lead to the highest rates of murder just because the highest levels of gun ownership do not lead to higher levels of murder. Logic is what's going on.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

the highest levels of gun ownership rates do not show the highest murder rates

Japan should be number one in the world with murders then. What's going on?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"I thought Trump was gonna fix it all?"

And Mayor Rahm Emanuel gets away scot-free? Jeez...

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Or the lower numbers could mean that a significant proportion of people who 'want to murder' cool down and change their minds when they find getting hold of the most efficient tool is such a hassle?

Maybe. But again, US states with the highest levels of gun ownership rates do not show the highest murder rates. For the cool down theory to be correct, you'd have to find some explanation for why people in Idaho are able too cool down without shooting anyone despite owning a gun, while Torontonians are just itching to shoot someone if only they could.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

The NRA is a cult

0 ( +1 / -1 )

the percentage suggests that the majority of those who want to murder will seek out the most efficient tools to do so even if they are illegal and difficult to obtain.

Or the lower numbers could mean that a significant proportion of people who 'want to murder' cool down and change their minds when they find getting hold of the most efficient tool is such a hassle?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

How is it possible for so many bad people to get hold of these filthy devices?

They're thug lives. They will get their hands on the weapons through robbery (peoples homes and businesses have been broken into because thug lives want guns), smuggling (there is still the organized crime element).

Chicago hasn't had the best track record when it comes to gang violence.

Availability is a problem, and we can thank the NRA and their backers both foreign and domestic for creating such a toxic gun-happy environment for criminals to take advantage of.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@M3 lol! That is what the raw data tells you? Lolol 66 murders vs. 571. You are right, gun control doesn't work. /sarcasm

The only claim I'm making is that the majority of people who choose to murder in Toronto also do so with a gun despite it being far harder to get an more strictly regulated. That is all.

What you seem to be suggesting is that if guns were just as prevalent in Toronto as they are in Chicago, the murder rate in Toronto would be just as high, but there is no real evidence for this. In fact, the inconvenient truth is that the statistics simply do not bear this out, both in America and in Europe. States with higher gun ownership do not have a higher homocide rate. The root problem clearly lies elsewhere (but that's not to say that once the root problem is identified, the most sensible solution might be to completely ban guns in America).

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The raw number of murders in Toronto is obviously far less (66 compared to 571 in Chicago) but the percentage suggests that the majority of those who want to murder will seek out the most efficient tools to do so even if they are illegal and difficult to obtain.

@M3 lol! That is what the raw data tells you? Lolol 66 murders vs. 571. You are right, gun control doesn't work. /sarcasm

And also, no one is claiming tightening gun control laws would get rid of all crime, but as your own example shows, it can significantly curb homicide rates.

Once again Democratic leadership

I thought Trump was gonna fix it all?!:D

failed another Black city

Chicago isn't a "black city." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago

and a city wth some of the strictest gun laws. Smh....

And no border. Gun control seems to work well in Japan and pretty much everywhere else. Despite thr Yankee gun but claims, guns clearly don't make people safer. Enjoy your violence, America.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Gangbangers don't obey the laws? What a shock.

Blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for fat people.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I'm no fan of America's gun laws, but is it really intellectually honest to place so much of the blame there?

In Chicago, 85% of murder victims are shot (Chicago Tribune). In Toronto where guns are far less prevalent and laws are far stricter, the rate only drops to 59%(wikipedia). The raw number of murders in Toronto is obviously far less (66 compared to 571 in Chicago) but the percentage suggests that the majority of those who want to murder will seek out the most efficient tools to do so even if they are illegal and difficult to obtain. Even if America were to completely bans guns, Mexico still has a constitutionally protected right to bear arms and the border is quite porous.

I think Chicago's problems run much deeper than just the availability of guns. The difference between the black and white homocide victimisation rates in America is jaw dropping.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Once again Democratic leadership failed another Black city and a city wth some of the strictest gun laws. Smh....

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Preserving gun regulations in the US is near impossible. Stats show that gun-related homicides in California counties bordering Vegas soar in the aftermath of each gunshow there.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

NRA, KKK, as an English speaker, I’m sick of these ABC words.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@Nishikat, thank goodness for marginal gun ownership, eh? Crazy to think that the floods and heat wave over the last month have probably harmed more people than all the shootings over the last however many decades. For us casual news skimmers, we should be able to estimate the two major sources of shootings in Japan this year: cop's service weapons (off the top of my head, the 19 year old officer slaying his supervisor and at least one other case involving a stolen service weapon) and rural hunters mistaking people for deer, boars, or bear. Even though there are some gun use issues in Japan, it's remarkable to have so few shootings that hunting accidents are major news every year (I don't think they are ever treated that way in the USA).

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Though I should commend Fizzbit for his point when he brings up "a lack of parenting." Take the perpetrator of the nation's worst mass shooting at the country music festival in Vegas a year ago. When he was 7, his father was arrested for bank robbery. As the son grew up with a crime-free record himself, and held jobs with the post office, the IRS, and later was worth millions from gambling, American gun laws paved the way to amass a ton of guns. Since "had a criminal parent" doesn't factor into US gun laws, there's no way to screen out people from problematic families. But this familial pattern comes up repeatedly--the teenage son of the guy who committed Alaska's only fatal newspaper shooting was able to acquire a gun and kill another kid. US lawmakers undoubtedly have the data (but maybe not the b@lls) to figure this problem out.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Jimizo--they can just pick them up on the black market or get acquaintances to be straw buyers, etc. It's a good thing that motorcars capable of transporting guns from outside Chicago don't exist yet (FizzBit level sarc).

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

How is it possible for so many bad people to get hold of these filthy devices?

8 ( +9 / -1 )

America's stupid gun laws.

Chicago is a gun free city so its not the laws, just a lack of parenting.

-2 ( +8 / -10 )

America's stupid gun laws.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

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