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France considers a ban on full Islamic veils

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I wonder if the French will also ban wearing surgical masks during flu pandemics.

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Or if they will ban ski-masks on cold winter days even on ski slopes.

It seems to me that people who would support this ban just give in to gut reactions of xenophobia and aversion to sights they are not used to. The idea is extremely inconsistent with logic, and citing other similar face coverings it does not even match up with the security concerns.

And how about those black veils of mourning that widows wear? I am sure these ladies could wear what they want over their face so long as it was sufficiently Victorian.

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Or if they will ban ski-masks on cold winter days even on ski slopes.

One would think masks on a ski slope serve the purpose of keeping one warm. As long as they are not going into banks, stores etc wearing the mask, why would there be a problem? If muslim countries are so great and wonderful, why do so many come to France? I think it is good that France is defending it's christian heriage just as muslim nations defend their islamic heritage.

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"her clothes - a head-to-toe robe and filmy tissue covering her face"

"They say I'm too attached to my religion"

They're right.

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neverknow2: I think it is good that France is defending it's christian heriage just as muslim nations defend their islamic heritage.

I think Islamic oppression is just as disgusting.

If muslim countries are so great and wonderful, why do so many come to France?

Who said muslim countries were great and wonderful? Muslims say Islam is great and wonderful. None of them say Islam puts bread on the table! Muslims residing in countries that suck know perfectly well their countries suck. But they cannot see a connection with that and Islam. For the most part, neither can I. Europe is not green for Christianity. Its a matter of geography. Its former state of mineral richness was also a matter of geography.

And there was a time when the Muslim world was the advanced one over everybody else. So no, I am not going to blame Islam for a lack of prosperity and I am not going to blame Muslims for going where the jobs are. Or even following their husbands as this woman did.

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neverknow2: As long as they are not going into banks, stores etc wearing the mask, why would there be a problem?

What if someone has bandages on their face from an operation? What is the difference? How about if the Phantom of the Opera decides to take a stroll?

Surely we can come up with a solution to all this? These women could be required to have a license that they have to show to security personnel when asked for example. That way you get better than a face; you get a name. Or if that is too intrusive, how about just a number? Then if there is any trouble the police could match the number to a name.

Or we could just admit that a handful of Muslim women with covered faces is not going to lead to a total collapse of security.

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the Moroccan woman seeking French citizenship, began veiling herself completely only after coming to France in 2000.

Why would she still choose to live in France, which has a completely different culture than her own? She should return to Morocco where she can wear her head-to-toe robe 24/7.

And there was a time when the Muslim world was the advanced one over everybody else.

Yeah, a millennium ago.

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Helter_Skelter: Yeah, a millennium ago.

What is your point? Do you even understand the point I was making? What value does your comment have to the discussion at all? Do you imagine it lends your words any creedence?

Yes, even a millenium ago, when the Islamic world was the world leader, it does not seem that veils brought them down.

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The rapid spread of islamization is a phenomenon that makes many people in the west uncomfortable. I have no objection to peace loving muslims who practice their religion in mosques or at home, but when the suspicion arises that mosques and imams teach radical political views, that disturbs me. Through the media most people know what radical muslims have done the last decades and are still doing. They are actual ticking time bombs that pose a real threat. Tolerating open signs of the muslim faith in a non-islamic country reinforces the belief in that threat, whether it is real or not. Restricting the use of the burka therefore I find justified. Muslims coming to the west in search of a better life should conform to accepted traditions in their host countries. If their priority is following the principles of their religion they should stay at home. You can't have it both ways - a mistaken belief that 'freedom in the west' means you can do anything you like, anywhere you like. Well, you certainly can't in islamic territories.

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Agree with presto345. If she is not comfortable with French law and French culture - why not simply return to Morocco? Covering the entire body head to foot in western culture makes us nervous. As nervous as I am sure it would make an arab if one of us were to prance down the street in hot pants and a bikini top in their country. Most of us wouldnt dream of doing something so disrepsectful - so why shouldnt it work both ways.

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kirakira25: If she is not comfortable with French law and French culture - why not simply return to Morocco?

Excuse me, but did you just say that moving to another country was "simple"? She has built a life in France, and she probably has kids too, and I think if it were an expat in Japan you might be a little more sympathetic.

Moreover, she is not currently laboring under a ban. She is free to wear her veil at present according to the law. What she is doing is speaking out against a proposition for a ban that may or may not happen and complaining that her perfectly legal activity may have been used to deny her citizenship.

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I may have been used to deny here citizenship because she obviously can't conform to French tradition. I don't think the French should have to put up with muslims going around concealing their identity when it's a known fact that they riot because a criminal of their own religion was shot by police, people of their own religion conceal explosives under clothing like that to take out as many as possible in crowded shopping districts and want photos of their concealed faces to appear on their drivers licenses. These people really want their cake and eat it too. Sorry but I can't blame the French for being paranoid about an entire culture that is secretive and potentially dangerous to their society. She'll have to live with the decision or move to where she may be more comfortable in that clothing.

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This is a last gasp attempt by the French government to stave off the fast increasing Muslim influence. To keep a society the same you need a birthrate of 1.8 per couple even before taking into account immigrants. The French non Muslim birthrate is around 1.3 as parents favour clubbing, world travel, careers etc. Muslim French however are having around 4 kids and often as many as 8. Many Muslim immigrants are also entering France from Morrocco, Algeria and elsewhere. Pretty soon (say 12-18 years time)France will be a Muslim country

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michaelgtodd:

Exactly right. Demograpic is destiny, and France`s destiny is islam. And it is not a secret, either. Remember, already in 1974, former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne said in a speech at the U.N.:

“One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere to go to the northern hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

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Let's not forget what Libyan Leader Mu'ammar Al-Qadhafi said:

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe - without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

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The dude who tried to blow up the plane in Detroit on Christmas Day was recruited and indoctrinated not in Nigeria or Saudia Arabia or Yemen (although sent there later for training)but while he was studying at one of the most expensive and exclusive Universities in London. England appear to be adopting a less confrontational approach and letting Muslim women wear what they like but they do not yet have as big a Muslim popultion.

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Maybe they cover their toes because they are super cute and drive guys wild. Maybe the same with the lips and eyes, and legs and tummy and hands and elbows....all those things us guys just hate

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Europe is slowly and quietly becoming Muslimified. A few hundred years from now Europe will be completly changed and the free world as we know it today will be gone with everyone carrying around prayer mats or renting them at a "rent a rug" shop in Picadilly Circle or along the Champs Elysee five times a day, hey what a business opportunity. The world needs to not be so complacent to the threat of Islamification.

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Funny how I can hear paranoid mutterings about demographics, dhimitude and dummytude when some European countries are going out of their way to refusing to accept Islam's more radical brand....

I guess you can't win with some people.

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Yes the dummytude is what France in resisting. Can't blame them.

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I think they should consider a ban on clothes. Darn, the emperor did.

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bushlover: when it's a known fact that they riot because a criminal of their own religion was shot by police,

How many Muslim rioters wore the veils of women? If any wore masks or ski masks was there really anything that could be done about it?

people of their own religion conceal explosives under clothing like that to take out as many as possible in crowded shopping districts

Under veils? Or do you really imagine a suicide bomber needs a veil? Please!

and want photos of their concealed faces to appear on their drivers licenses

A different matter all together.

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bushlover: it's a known fact that they riot because a criminal of their own religion was shot by police

The above is in fact a complete fabrication. There never was a riot in France caused by a criminal being shot by police. Moderator please remove the original post and both my posts referring to this. There is enough misinformation around without that around. If not, bushlover, get your facts straight.

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Oh my. I do believe something has radicalized the French. Whatever could it be? The veil is a harmless, completely apolitical accoutrement, one which any modest Muslim woman would want to wear. President Obama needs to inform the French that they are acting stupidly here.

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"To no a vale be a veil of concealment, but when you got ur pict taken at Narita, smile and give em your finger prints and show pearly whites, as no Jp national ever does in a photo cause they are not allowed, and when they take the photo hold your hands properly as there are rules... God, what is wrong with you people. Just follow the rules.. Muah"

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America always laughs at France.

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wear a garment or an accessory that has the effect of hiding the face

Where does that leave motorcycle helmets?

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When in Rome, do as the Romans. Asa foreigner living in Japan I try and respect their culture, rules and way of life. Why on earth can't others do the same? It is rich that a muslim women is making comments about her country accepting others when so many other muslim countries do not. When traveling to such place I cover up like the locals - only natural. If you are an immigrant expect to leave certain thinga "home".

I don't 100% agree with France on this but I get sick of immigrants complaining about such things. It reminds me of the issues Canadians have had with turbans and daggers with certain groups of Indians. You can't expect to live the same as you did in your country. The faster Muslims (and all folks really) understand this, the better they'll get along in their adopted country.

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Rather paranoid, I think. Besides, a ban on wearing garments that cover the face is not the same as a ban on full Islamic veils. So which is it? Of course a certain amount of assimilation can be expected of foreigners, but it's ridiculous to make a law that says what people can or cannot wear. Wouldn't this also upset French people who want to have the freedom to dress as they please?

The argument that these full-body robes is a gateway to radical Islam is pretty lame. And so is the statement that it is an attack on gender equality or French values. If the women want to wear these veils, let them. It's not infringing on anyone else's rights. Laws should be based on logic and reason not fear. At least these women won't have to worry about up-skirt photo takers!!

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tmarie: Why on earth can't others do the same? It is rich that a muslim women is making comments about her country accepting others when so many other muslim countries do not.

She is not from "most" Muslim countries. She is from Morocco. And if Morocco is setting a good example, then Morocco is setting a good example. I do not know about you, but I don't think its a good idea to just blindly react to the other guy. But good examples should be followed.

Asa foreigner living in Japan I try and respect their culture, rules and way of life.

Respecting your own culture is not the same as disrespecting another.

When in Rome, do as the Romans.

A good rule of thumb, but this is about freedom of religion. If that cannot even extend to mere clothing then what good is it?

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full Islamic veils

Is that like a full automatic weapon?

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dontknockit at 12:28 PM JST - 17th January

You seem a little confused about this “Muslim” world of yours. When those areas of the world that are now Muslim were leading the world they were not Muslim. They became Muslim and ground to a halt and if anything they have moved backward rather than forward with the rest of the world. If you really must blindly defend the practice of female subjection to a male religion then just do so, try to avoid excuses that have no foundation in fact. Bringing up the pointless points about ski masks and bandages really isn’t helpful to your argument or this topic in general. For those of us who have lived and do live in Europe it matters, Islam is welcome, but it is not welcome when it sets out to undermine the cultures that it moves into. Go and try to build a church in Saudi Arabia and see what happens to you. Even if the government allowed you to build your church (which they wont) you are very unlikely to live very long. No, I do not dispute their right to run their country any way they please, but I do dispute their right to force other counties to accept what they do not accept.

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Muslim leaders of all tendencies have warned that a ban risks stigmatizing all Muslims

Too late. Muslims have already done this to themselves.

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[If not, bushlover, get your facts straight.] --- Oh yes a teen was not shot. Some ran away from the police because they thought the police were after them and 2 hid in an electrical generating station and got electrocuted. How smart of their Darwinism. So the other smart muslim youth decided to riot because of their friend's stupidity in killing themselves. They could only blame others for their own stupidity. This is a common theme in muslim interpretations of the modern world.

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