world

France seeks European support after submarine deal surprise

17 Comments
By ANGELA CHARLTON

The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.

© Copyright 2021 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.

©2021 GPlusMedia Inc.


17 Comments
Login to comment

The French were already in breach of their contract, five years in, half a billion spent and not even a final design ready to cut steel too. And the Chinese already had over 21,000 pages of detailed specifications, capabilities and operating parameters for the Scorpien class in hand courtesy of a big data breach at DCNS.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

France has been pitching an EU controlled military force for many years, undermining NATO in the process. To their credit the other NATO allies have mostly turned their backs on the French effort seeing it for what it is, a French attempt to create its own power center outside of NATO. The French have also been busy helping the Chinese military and aerospace industries. Look at how much of China's military and civil rotorcraft are French designs. Their WZ-10 gunship uses a French rotor and drive system. China could not have a modern attack helicopter without considerable French help (to be fair Israel provides perhaps even higher technologies to China in terms of electronics, countermeasures, sensors and systems integration along with operational arts learned in combat).

5 ( +5 / -0 )

EU politicians behaving in their usual fashion, aggrandising power to themselves while seeking to undermine NATO, which is the only credible defence structure in Europe in the face of a progressively more aggressive Russia.

The EU is not an alternative, it’s decision making structure is so sclerotic it is incapable of reacting to a threat.

Macron is behaving like a spoiled brat who has had his sweets taken away from him.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Marcon's desire for more European sovereignty has been part and parcel underway for a year or two now, to mixed European results. It will be most interesting to see if this changes -or firms up - any continental opinions, especially among the Germans.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

A sub-optimal design, late, over budget that the Chinese already knew how to sink.

What’s not to cancel?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

This is brutal:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1492633/eu-news-france-Australia-submarine-deal-Germany-Sweden-aukus-latest

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Moderator Please substitute this version for my 10:01 am JST post. Thank you.

englisc aspyrgend and Desert Tortoise are correct. France has made no mystery of its desire to lower the financial burden of NATO, and subsequently its overall effectiveness, while advocating that NATO is still important enough to have on the fringe as insurance for when the hurting really starts ('in-case-of-fire-break-glass" kind of friends).

Otherwise its Macron's vision for “strategic autonomy,” or “E.U. sovereignty,” arguing the bloc should operate independently on the world stage, in both defense and industry. Translated: let's use much more of the money and force commitment that is now required for NATO and spend it on our own weapons industry, while having greater say over how force is used, where, when, and how.

Understandably, other EU countries are not necessarily on board. Much to French teeth-grinding, they have announced, rather publically, that they still see value in NATO just the way it is, to guarantee security, stability and prosperity in Europe.

EU sans France, though, is openly being seduced by France over the thought of Europe growing more independent; particularly from the UK and the US, and their influence that is coming from those camps over the importance of particular Eastern European countries (we all know who they are, don't we?), that EU right now is busy spanking over their continued resistance to accept Cultural Euro Vision, and to take on all refugees / migrants / immigrants / new Europeans into their happy acres: as many as they are told, when they are told. After all, Micron and his government are always the first to point out that Europe must not totally rely on SOME allies that do not share the warmth and glow that comes from centuries of culture, sophistication, and refinement.

By the way, Macron's overt flirtations to the Russians - for many more business joint ventures and "strategic cooperation" - over the time he has been in office has not gone unnoticed in other parts of the EU. The covert message to a COVID-stressed-out Europe, is "hey, Europe, look what I negotiated! Oh là là! Do you want some of this, or be left out," kind of makes some uneasy.

Ahh! Europe! Complicated!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

A sub-optimal design

Bad pun!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

englisc aspyrgend and Desert Tortoise are correct. France has made no mystery of its desire to lower the financial burden of NATO, and its overall effectiveness, while advocating that NATO is still important enough to have on the fringe as insurance for when the hurting really starts ('in-case-of-fire-break-glass" kind of friends).

Oherwise its Macron's vision for “strategic autonomy,” or “E.U. sovereignty,” arguing the bloc should operate independently on the world stage, in both defense and industry. Translated: let's use much more of the money and force commitment that is now required for NATO and spend it on our own weapons industry, while having greater say over how force is used, where, when, and how.

Understandbly, other EU countries are not necessarily on board. Much to French teeth-grinding, they have announced, rather publically, that they still see value in NATO just the way it is, to guarantee security, stability and prosperity in Europe.

EU sans France, though, is openly being seduced by France over the thought of Europe growing more independent; particularly from the UK and the US, and influence coming at EU from those camps over the importance of particuar Eastern European countries (we all know who they are, don't we?), that EU right now is spanking over their continued resistance to accept Cultural Euro Vision, and to take on all refugees / migrants / immigrants / new Europeans into their happy acres as they are told and when they are told. After all, Micron is the first to point out that Europe must not totally rely on allies that do not share the warmth and glow that comes from centuries of culture, sophistication, and refinement.

By the way, Macron's overt flirtations to the Russians for many more business joint ventures and "strategic cooperation" over in term in office has not gone unnoticed in other parts of the EU. The covert message to a COVID-stressed-out Europe, "hey, Europe, look what I negotiated! Oh là là! Do you want some of this, or be left out," makes some uneasy.

Ahh! Europe! Complicated!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

If I live in a dangerous neighborhood, I want the best weapon my money can buy.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The French were already in breach of their contract, five years in, half a billion spent and not even a final design ready to cut steel too. 

The first of the French-designed submarines was to have been delivered in 2027.

Morrison said he expects the first of the nuclear subs, which are to be constructed in the Australian city of Adelaide, will be built by 2040.

2040 versus 2027. Even if the French are late ten years at least you'd have them before the U.S. The need for these subs are so urgent due to rising aggression that we are going to wait nearly 20 years to protect ourselves?

$90 billion to be delivered in 2040. You wouldn't buy a house and wait 20 years later to live in it. I need get a shot gun for there are prowlers in our neighborhood recently, but the order I made will arrive in two years. If the danger is real, why wait until 2040?

If you have to wait two weeks for the new car you purchased with the options you chose to be delivered, the dealer might allow you to use a courtesy car of theirs until your car arrives. If the US would provide subs of a lesser class until 2040, that would be make some sense.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Australia can rent American nuclear subs while they wait for delivery of their own.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

“It’s not just a Franco-Australian affair, but a rupture of trust in alliances,” the French foreign minister was quoted 

I read that when the Australian prime minister visited France, he assured the French the agreement was good but this was while he was negotiating the nuclear subs with the US. While not the first to stab, he creates distrust among the allies without the enemy having to lift a finger.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Not half billion and it was 2.5 billion dollars mate. The French Naval Group was wasted 2.5 billion dollars for absolutely nothing. 5 year late and even Sub design wasn't finished yet and cost blew out from 40 billions to 90 billions but asked another 2 year delay. Why should we have to pay compensation for wasting 2.5 billion for nothing?

If the French Naval Group Sub builder want compensation and then they will only get this xxxxxxxx from Australian peoples.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Desert TortoiseToday 06:53 am JST

The French were already in breach of their contract, five years in, half a billion spent and not even a final design ready to cut steel too. And the Chinese already had over 21,000 pages of detailed specifications, capabilities and operating parameters for the Scorpien class in hand courtesy of a big data breach at DCNS.

It would hardly have been the first Western project since the end of the Cold War to be badly late and overbudget, nor is the US immune from data leaks.

Further, it's not even completely clear why the French were late. We hear Australian complaints, but that's only one side of the tale. For example, the reason for the final design not being finalized may well be Australian intransigence (constant changes to the detailed requirements ... etc).

The fact is that it was the Aussies that said they want diesels rather than nukes. The French have considered selling Canada SSNs back in the 80s (considering what happened to those Upholder/Victoria class SSKs, that might have been the better choice for Canada), so it can probably be arranged, if the French want it.

Further, if one argues it was political reasons that prevented the Aussies from buying a SSN in the first place, then the French are also cheated. Suppose you've been selling Plan Bs in a country because that country regulates the sale of Plan As. Then all of a sudden, that country says Plan As are OK after all, and without giving you an opportunity to react immediately gives the job to one of its own, who of course has Plan A ready to go...

I think you'll be miffed. I appreciate that nuclear subs are a good idea for Australia, and national security, but a bit more procedural justice here would have at least mitigated this entire row. At least make the Americans and the Brits compete a little bit for the nuke sub sale.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Australia should pay a breach of contract reparation and pay for services and materials already rendered

But that's the best the French are gonna get

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

If I live in a dangerous neighborhood, I want the best weapon my money can buy.

If you live in a country under an oligarchy or an authoritarian party that controls the media, there is always some conflict or crisis that takes priority over boring topics like healthcare or pollution. If your neighborhood is facing an invasion or diabolical subversion, who has time to worry about overcrowded hospitals, inadequate health care, global warming and pollution.

The people are led to believe they live in danger and need more nuclear subs, jet fighters and missiles. The never-ending manufacturing of crises prolong and subsidize their rule. In China, it’s the US. In the US it’s Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and China. In Japan it’s North Korea and China. Smokescreens exists in many countries.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Login to leave a comment

Facebook users

Use your Facebook account to login or register with JapanToday. By doing so, you will also receive an email inviting you to receive our news alerts.

Facebook Connect

Login with your JapanToday account

User registration

Articles, Offers & Useful Resources

A mix of what's trending on our other sites