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French ban on Islamic veils put into force

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This is the most stupid law I've ever heard of. If women or men want to cover their faces, who cares? It is their choice. Maybe they could wear surgical masks like here in Japan. I see a business opportunity for mask makers.

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For most of those women, the veil is a godsend...

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I don't remember reading in the Q'uran that women must hide their faces.

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This is good, because now terrorist men cannot hide behind the veil.

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Interesting article...right below is an ad for quran dot com showing a veiled woman. I wonder if the ads are being aimed at the stories here.

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If France has problems with people wearing burqas its Frances decision to pass a law stating so. If the French people don't want it then the people will vote it down. As it stands it seems the French majority want this inacted.

@shinjuku surgical masks are worn for much more reasonable means (prevent the spread of sickness or harmful bacteria) than a burqa where in Islam "A woman must not be seen by men or she will not be able to turn away mens lust and lead men into temptation". Even gangmembers and riot protesters cover their faces because they don't want to be identified. The burqa is required in certain groups of Islam in order to prevent muslim men from the temptation of raping a woman... not that it helps, if you know how many women are raped in islamic countries (even with a burqa on) and to add insult to injury are arrested and persecuted for "commiting adultry" for being raped... so in many cases the women will not come forward because either way they get screwed over.

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Shinjukuboy:

" This is the most stupid law I've ever heard of. If women or men want to cover their faces, who cares? "

Ah. That must be why moderate islamic societies ban the tenting of women. But what do they know, right?

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Kudos to Japan, not so long ago I saw a report on TV about some Indonesian nurses. They were wearing the veil at work and nobody said anything. I am really proud to live in such a country where people are still respected for their beliefs.

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France invaded many North African Muslim countries long ago, now the French are paying for their follies, when their economy was better they opened up the immigration gates to allow all the cheap laborers in, now that they have to many Arabs and Black Africans in France, whom many practice Islam, it must scare the native white French and make them feel that they are being "invaded" by all of these Muslims, but all of these Muslims are not in France just by accident. We must look back at how France invaded Northern Africa etc..kind of like the UK with having "too many people from Pakistan and India" the UK invaded those countries and then was happy to get cheap labor etc..so this Islamic veil ban is more complicated than the Western news wants us to believe.

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oddly I support this. If you don't want to live in a secular country then don't live there. I applaud the French for this declaration that to live there is to be a part of society, not just pick and choose convenience. It ensures a future of at least trying for equality, rather than accepting divisions. Who knows if they will be successful, but it reflects their country, and if that's how they want to run it then that's their decision to do so.

May be it will give pause for those moving there to reconsider it, if this doesn't jive with their way of life. After all, you want some connection, not zero connection.

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@shinjuku surgical masks are worn for much more reasonable means (prevent the spread of sickness or harmful bacteria

No that's just biological ignorance. Yet another facade in need of a bubble burst since so few wash their hands and think the all magical surgical mask heals all.

Masks are single use, limited time. Not daily use, all the time.

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If that's what France wants, then all those that want to keep wearing the veil can leave. Simple as that.

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is France not a modern country where there is freedom to follow ones own religion, wearing a veil in public is not hurting anyone who looks at it should they make a law that all people only bathe once a week too, so they can be truly French I mean we are not forced to eat natto when we come to Japan or to become Buddhists,,,

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Actually terrorists with known "faces" do run around hiding in those full body outfits. I mean people actually want to be able to have their photos on their ID's taken wearing a face mask.

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I love it how we become selective in adopting certain things and rebel against other things when we are in a host country. We only want to take, take and take. Not give. Yes, the forefathers of the French colonized etc etc. In what way does that justifiable that the other French people pay for it with their health and everything. There should have been a better more balanced way to compensate.

Was pretty amazed how the young immigrants from many parts of the world have adopted well to the French way of doing things. But then what put me off is that they litter the public places because there is someone to clean it. It was such an ugly sight to see a young beautiful well dressed immigrant woman eating gum and throwing it in the train floor right in front of many nationalities. So she adopted the fashion and dressing habits of the French and refuses the "be clean" habit of the French?

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WilliB has had a little change of tune. April 10 he says:

That is also the reason why the veil is banned in moderate islamic countries.

April 12 he says:

That must be why moderate islamic societies ban the tenting of women.

He went from veil being banned to the burqua. But I am sure his own realization that he has been spreading misinformation won't change his mind one bit.

But hey, most of us know there is no good faith among the ban supporters anyway. What this is is a vessel in which the anti-Muslim crowd can place their larger anti-Muslim sentiment. They think (maybe correctly) that they can get away with lashing out at this small minority of Muslim women without clearly exposing their simple hate to us all or causing a major meltdown with the majority of Muslims.

Its sad really to read all this excuse making and misinformation and realize they just don't have the courage to come out and say that they are getting off on picking on these poor 2000 or so women because it feeds the beast of hate within them.

But if they miscalculated the outcome, this could become a flashpoint for something much bigger. And all to revel in needless hate over something no more dangerous than the bird flu masks they were passing out a few years ago.

But of course the fact that France just took a crap on all her values does not have an immediate physical effect, so the more shallow among us don't even care about that.

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I noticed in the other threat that that the anti-veil crowd were trying to make this all about burkhas when its about veils. I can only imagine they tried to steer the conversation hard to that extreme because they knew they were already lost.

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From the article;

"meaning that women may bare their breasts in Cannes but not cover their faces on the Champs-Elysees."

May I commend the writer of the article for the most stupid comparison ever seen.

Having a small business in France, and also being a foreigner living here, I often am frustrated - nay utterly pissed with the system. But, I do admire their position with religious nuts wanting to challenge lacisim in France.

The official line?

If you 'aint happy, then get on the next plane back to where you came from et adieu.

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Mangaman: Its sad really to read all this excuse making and misinformation and realize they just don't have the courage to come out and say that they are getting off on picking on these poor 2000 or so women because it feeds the beast of hate within them.

Someone get this man a tissue...

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In the US the Ku Klux Klan is banned and walking around in your white robes could get you arrested. In Germany wearing anything resembling Nazi attire will land you in jail. I was told by a friend from Belgium, who was in shock over seeing a guy with a swastika tattoo in the US, that such a tattoo would be considered illegal in Belgium. Even societies that are considered supporters of liberties and the right to expression limit those rights and liberties when the public display of something is offensive to a free society.

France has decided that wearing a burqua or nijab is offensive to the liberal state and signifies a declaration that women are chattel. To that end they have decided that religious freedom does not trump the desire of the French to hold equality of all over the practice of religion. I think this is perfectly reasonable.

Or, consider this: both Islam and at least one sect of Mormons believe in polygamy. It is considered a religious practice and some women enter into such an arrangement as "sister-wives." But polygamy is illegal in the US and the husbands are arrested. Not much of a stretch from that to outlawing a dress code that relagates women to virtual slavery.

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ca1ic0cat, comparing Nazi symbols and KKK garb to a veil? Comparing polygamy to a veil? Seems a little extreme, don't you think? The veil does not represent Islam, and even if it did, how can you compare Islam to the Nazis or the KKK? Seems what you and others are trying to do in a roundabout way.

signifies a declaration that women are chattel.

Nonsense. When women are chattel you beat them where they stand and sell them to the highest bidder. Even if all those 2000 veil wearers in France were forced (and they are not) it still would not declare women as chattel because the overwhelming majority of Muslim women are NOT wearing them!

If there is worry that women are being treated like chattel, I should think even France has far bigger fish to fry.

To that end they have decided that religious freedom does not trump the desire of the French to hold equality of all over the practice of religion.

You seem to think equality is the same thing as sameness. I guess you won't be happy until we are all clones in the same clothes?

And as a religious practice, this one barely qualifies. Its not dictated by the religion and many if not most Muslim women don't do it. This is more of a middle eastern culture thing.

outlawing a dress code that relagates women to virtual slavery.

I dont think I have enough LSD in my system to see how a veil makes a slave. Victorian women used to wear them when in mourning.

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Superlib is right.

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Its kind of funny when people think western men never force western women to dress a certain way. How many fathers tell their daughters "You are not going outside this house wearing that young lady!". And how many of our veil ban defenders would not bat an eye?

That said, if women in France are being forced to wear veils, they need one heck of a lot more help than a veil ban. Surely the veil is the least of their greivances if such were the case? Don't even try to pretend this is a start to helping them. Even if one ounce of this measure is for that purpose, this amounts to a meaningless feel good measure, like a band-aid on one bullet hole of many. If that is where the care starts, that is where it will end. It would be like a journey of a thousand miles starting with a single fart. I don't think so.

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"How many fathers tell their daughters "You are not going outside this house wearing that young lady!". And how many of our veil ban defenders would not bat an eye?"

Boobs and ass hanging out on a 15 year old girl are nothing to do with the cultural clashes of radical Islam vs. the modern world.

Surely even the radical left can grasp this.

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Libersman,

"Superlib is right."

Don't tell me you finally learned Catholisism is not "alien" to France? That would be progress, Old Friend.

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@mangaman a burqa is a full bodied veil so it is included in the veil ban. And as others have said, its FRANCES decision to ban it, and if the FRENCH PEOPLE don't want this ban enforced they will take it down. As I've said before, why should the religious ideology of a few win out against the safety and security of the majority? Another thing, why are you so bent on "protecting" a religious doctrine (yes the veil in Islam is a religious doctrine some adhere to strict interpretation and others don't) so badly? Islam has no issues protecting itself (even to the point where they don't want anybody criticising the religion in speech or text and thus stifling freedom of speech and expression of others). As I said talk to the apostates of Islam before you keep trying to support an ideology that will easily take your freedom and ideals away from you when it has the chance. The French don't want veils in their society, its obviously their choice as the people in a democratic society.

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@mangaman - you seem to think that the veil/najib/burqua is just a fashion accessory. In Islam, especially the parts of Islam that preach death to infidels, the veil is a way to relagate a woman to virtual slavery to her husband. She can't leave the house unless a male relation is with her. She can't drive a car. Heaven help her if her husband gets upset because the "prophet" won't.

This type of thing is in complete opposition to the tenents of French, or any other country, that espouses liberty and equality. From this perspective it is perfectly reasonable to ban the veil in much the same way that other countries have banned the garb of other groups that have been opposed to liberty and equality.

The fact that there are many "modern Muslim" (to use a term an Indonesian friend uses to describe herself) who will not wear the veil is a hopeful sign that the Muslim religion can reform itself to value equality. But that doen't change the fact that there are a fair number of radical Islamists who would be happy to force us all into dihimmitude. But I'm no dihimmi.

And yes, I do view radical Islam as similar to the Nazis or the KKK. This stuff must be opposed the same way the Inquesition was.

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Mangaman: Its kind of funny when people think western men never force western women to dress a certain way. How many fathers tell their daughters "You are not going outside this house wearing that young lady!". And how many of our veil ban defenders would not bat an eye?

Hehe OK, OK. Enough already. If you need attention I'm sure there are quite a few bars in your area where you can get it.

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ca1ic0cat thinks Islam is on the same level as the Nazis and the veil is a symbol of the extremists only. As if those were not bad enough, she thinks removal of the veil will free about 2000 veil wearers in France from slavery!

HonestDictator is scared of the veil and thinks it a security threat, despite it not being behind a real national security problem, such as a bombing or something. (not talking about burkhas but veils here). All he has is what ifs and maybes and he is so scared he thinks the French national legistlature ought to spend valuable time on this!

What we have here is the majority trampling the rights of a small minority, pure and simple. You want Muslim women to be equal? Well the veil is not stopping them any more than bras are. You are just fishing in the wrong place. You are worried for your safety? Well motocycle helmets and Halloween masks are still allowed, so you better wear your blast shield and helmet to the supermarket in France. Yeah right. These opinions are so far out irrational I am not even inclined to think you yourselves believe them.

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Madverts said: Boobs and ass hanging out on a 15 year old girl are nothing to do with the cultural clashes of radical Islam vs. the modern world.

Not to me. I think you are radical in your own way, especially when you claim to represent the "modern world". The degree of dress you insist upon and the degree you reject is just a matter of bias. You think reputation is lost and danger inevitable when a young girl dresses skimpy, while for some Muslims not wearing a veil is dressing skimpy. In Middle Age Europe, ankles were so lust inspiring they religiously covered table legs! Its all about time and place, and your appeal of "modern world" hardly sways me. We could well embrace the veil as a symbol of modesty ourselves one day, or even as form of protection for young females, especially as the pedo hysteria continues to unfold in the "modern world". I am afraid that technological capability has not necessarily made the "modern world" socially forward in all aspects. In fact, in some ways its gone backward. But few see anything in their own society as backward no matter how backward it is. Funny that.

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Mangaman,

"Well motocycle helmets and Halloween masks are still allowed" where l am from it is not allowed to wear balaclava's or motor bike helmets into stores, or even to get petrol. Yet you can were a burqa or veil. You walk into a store with a hooded jacket on and you are guarenteed to have security behind you in a flash. So what is the difference, l will tell you people are to PC and scared to ask the Muslims to remove there face coverings. I say good on France for growing a pair and doing this

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AdamB, this is exactly the opposite of growing a pair. Instead of asking the women directly to remove their veils or deny entry as they would with a motorcycle helmet, they have left it to Big Brother.

But while I bet you could find instances of crime committed with motorcycle helmet on, and will continue to read about them, how about with a veil? Maybe the French should ban hats, wigs, make-up and cotton in the cheeks too, because I bet there are more instances of those being used for crime as well.

Sorry, but all the fearmongering over 2000 women in France just falls completely flat. All these arguments are so lame that that is why I say this is nothing but anti-Muslim sentiment, misguided as it is.

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Mangaman,

"But while I bet you could find instances of crime committed with motorcycle helmet on, and will continue to read about them, how about with a veil?" you are correct there are crimes commited using disguises, whether they be hats, motorcycle helmets, balaclava's etc. Many places now use facial recognition systems to catch undesirables and criminals. How do they work with a Veil or Burqa. In my home country there was recently a court case where a muslim woman was caught breaking the law while driving, she had a burqa on and refused to remove it. She later claimed it wasnt her as the officer could not identify her. And for the record there are crimes committed by people using this as a way of hiding their identity. Try looking it up.

This is all besides the point, l believe people who move to a foreign country to live need to try as much as possible to assimulate with their new home not alienate themselves from it.

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Okay. One woman driving in a burkah (not a veil again), speeding. So glad we got the national legislature on the case! Sure they got nothing better to do!

A guy did the same thing in the U.S. several times in a Halloween mask. Surprised Congress was not wringing their hands for weeks! Surprised it did not bring the country to its knees!

Hiding their identity? In France? Tell you what, why don't you name names instead of demanding I go on a wild goose chase for this general concept you have floated?

You do that and maybe I will fish out some names of people wearing wigs and make-up to hide their identity. You know, if I don't have a panic attack first just knowing they are out there.

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Tiresome to see some try and play Devil's Advocate for no reasoon other than it makes them feel special.

There is nothing left for Mangaman to "argue" save that French cops,judges and juries should be allowed to perform their various civic duties masked.

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Manga,

"Not to me. I think you are radical in your own way, especially when you claim to represent the "modern world"."

Interperet "modern world" how you will. Radical Islam uses every possible means to exploit the texts, whether it be to justify mass-murder on innocents or simply keeping women in their "place", denying them an education or forcing them to cover themselves from the wandering eyes of other men.

You comparison of the incredulous father seeing his 15 yo "girl" with goods on display was as ridiculous yesterday as it is today. As simple as that. If this makes me speak for the "modern world" then so be it.

"Its all about time and place, and your appeal of "modern world" hardly sways me."

The don't come to France. Please, go find the modern world in Saudi Arabia and check out the religious cops whilst you're there.

Here, if you refuse to fit in then either keep quiet, or go back to where you came from. France can be at least be applauded for that....

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Tiresome to see some try and play Devil's Advocate for no reasoon other than it makes them feel special.

When the majority tramples the rights of the minority just for the sport of it, you will find me fighting. I don't play Devil's Advocate. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't even get excited because I "got my way" like "some" people do. This veil ban is a sick and twisted violation of the rights of an extreme minority by the extreme majority. And one reason I have not mentioned why it may exist is because, since the majority support it, despite the waste of time the whole debate is for the government, for some politicians it ensures future support. But for France it also ensures more sloppy governance as it reinforces the idea of doing what is popular rather than what is right or even important.

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Radical Islam uses every possible means to exploit the texts

Suicide belts worry me a bit. Veils don't, not even if some radicals wear them along with some moderates. Its a piece of cloth. It generally does not even have any writing or symbols on it. I can see right through this melodrama and I know its nothing to do with the piece of cloth.

And why would I go to Saudi Arabia? I like their ways even less. I never held them up as a fine example of anything at all. I have held up France in the past though, so seeing France trample her principles in this meaningless way is vexing. I generally have no interest in wearing a veil besides, which of course explains why others find it so easy to attack those who do, as they have since forever and just for the fun of it, like a class of Japanese kid bullies with their one selected victim.

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While mangaman continues to insist that France (and the west) have to support the "rights" of women to wear a veil and claims that the western majority is trampling the rights of a minorty he continues to ignore what radical Islam would do to the rights of a minority. Look no farther than Iran or Pakistan to understand just how Islam treats minorities. There is no place for such behaviour in a free society. Banning the veil is the first step in standing up to radical Islam. This has to be done if we are to keep our freedom. It's no different than banning other offensive dress.

But, since mangaman keeps missing the point my conclusion is that he's just baiting us. Time to iggy the troll.

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he continues to ignore what radical Islam would do to the rights of a minority.

More like "have done" in other countries. In a sense not even a "what if" that time. But it is in another since we are not talking about other countries and since allowing the veil will not and has not brought about Islamic rule in France or anywhere else, so I am going to write that off as more asinine wallowing in anti-Muslim sentiment and trampling a mere 2000 Muslim women for the fun of it. I have not ignored your "point". Its totally irrelevant. You keep trying to change the subject from a piece of cloth few Muslims use into a discussion about radical Islam. Its pretty whacky. Tin-foil hat whacky.

If I am a troll its for spoiling your fun by exposing you to the truth about the ban and your own so-called "reasoning".

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About 66,000,000 people in France. 2000 wear a veil. For every 33,000 people, one is wearing a veil. That is .003 percent of the population, and no signs of it even spreading in popularity. The overwhelming majority of people in France have not even seen a women in France wearing a veil in real life.

This is like people in California voting to ban Amish straw hats in Pennsylvania.

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Mangaman: When the majority tramples the rights of the minority just for the sport of it, you will find me fighting. I don't play Devil's Advocate. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I don't even get excited because I "got my way" like "some" people do.

Need any extra nails for that cross of yours? Must be heavy to have to carry around on your back all the time. Especially for 0.003 percent of the population of France.

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Mangaman.

Followers of Islam aren't really that small a group in France compared to other minority groups. Within the Islamic followers there is a very small group that refused to follow an existing law that forbids all religious apparel of ANY creed.

That also forbids the openly wearing of a cross, etc and the conflict is not new.

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Zenny, I was speaking of veil wearers, not all Muslims in France. 2000 is a small minority and most Muslims in France don't wear veils and were not planning to.

The law you are speaking of is only for schools, not in public. That difference is massive.

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"2000 is a small minority and most Muslims in France don't wear veils and were not planning to."

And a lot more than 2000 (a lot) refuse to integrate into the French way of life, having come here for one reason only, to sponge from the Glorious Nanny State that years of socialst ruin have given us.

Integrate or bugger off is the issue you're failing to comprehend!

Vive la République. Heh.

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Integrate or bugger off is the issue you're failing to comprehend!

So when do the Hasidic Jews of Le Marais get their come uppance? Have the Vietnamese in the Chinatown at the 13th arrondissement integrated enough? Any special reason so many posters here approve of cracking down on the 2000 veil wearing women, but don't mention the others? Oh. Maybe I did not fail to comprehend at all! Anti-Muslim sentiments.

Keep in mind it was the anti-veil posters here I was talking about specifically. I do imagine those sentiments are also common enough among the French. For the posters here, integration is not the concern though. For the French you would have a good point. I remember the expulsion of the Gypsies.

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" I remember the expulsion of the Gypsies."

What, Roma immigrants with no papers to actually be in France and caught comitting crimes?

Heh, I dare say the French were far too lenient, especially giving them all cash to appease you left-wing do-gooders screaming about their "rights".

When I came to France, did I refuse to learn the language? Did I use loopholes in EU laws to have an English company rather than a French company to avoid being shafted by the French governement? Did I employ Brits in the local community rather then Frenchmen?

I can answer "no" to all those. I intergrated. Anyone refusing should, and will, be shown the door.

I'm not sure which from which uber-tolerant socialist utopia you hail, but please take all the radical muslims. You can have 'em.

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"So when do the Hasidic Jews of Le Marais get their come uppance?"

Oh, please let me know when these people are rioting, stealing and burning cars. Likewise for the Chinese, Japanese, Americans, Germans, Italians, Spanish, Greek, obviously the Martians......

All these people bar the aliens work for a living and speak French as a first language.

Give me a heads-up when you've noticed a patern here.

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I simply wish Islamic women in the West would just cease wearing that appallingly ugly political and religious statement headgear. In relations to Western Moslem women, it seems to me it is a form of appalling insensitivity, and traitorism to all those tens of millions of oppressed women in strident Middle Eastern Islamic countries that have no choice at all on so many restrictive lifestyle factors. Something the strident western headgear wearers are free not to suffer. Ironically it is mainly non-moslems that won and guarantee that freedom and gender equality, that attracts them to the West.

I also wish that anti-social recent creation, "the hoodie" would be banned in my Country, Australia, as it seems to be always present with street crime and anti-social behavior and causes public fear when people cannot see who is under it. Hoodies makes it difficult for the Police to identify offenders from security cameras.

Many Moslems are about thirty to forty years behind us in the west in their ways but are catching up, advancing like we did. The young will not put up with the State and religious oppression their parents sadly suffered throughout the petty dictatorships of the Middle East which in twenty years will be just a memory. There is a lot of very good Moslem people in all countries and I wish them all a fair go as long as they extend the same to me.

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While I,m against a lot of the Moslems for seeking residence out of their initial country, I can see the point that making a piece of clothing against the law is rather ridiculous. State governing your dressware is not a good thing. This law in France indicated to me in a lot of ways, that the Moslems have gone too far with their asylum seeking ways, and France has had no choice but to make this silly rule. Australians talking about hoods are just snobs and that sort of thinking is probably where a lot of the problem started in the first place eh

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I have many good Muslim friends both in Europe and outside.

After WWII many Muslims(Turkish, etc) came to Europe and helped us rebuild, this meant that many settled with their families and been living there now for 60 or so years.

Of course Europeans can be rather intolerant so they faced discriminations, etc as many simply came to work and to send money home to their families.

Also didn't help that many Foreigners wanted them gone again after they had done their bid.

Said that after WWII there was less radical Islam than there is now and I think the mindset of many immigrants have changed compared to the ones after WWII and thus they feel differently about the need for integration.

So many europeans on one hand see well integrated Muslims(actually any foreigner, we have millenia of them incoming) and a small radical group that seems to thumb their noses at us.

Add in problems with radical Islam (bombings, terrorist attacks, etc) so we want, might even need, to make sure that they will integrate well into our societies.

Europeans are less and slower inclined to accept influences from other cultures(may they be american, Islamic, etc) as we value our histories, cultures, traditions.

Also the wording of the law is very important.

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No Zenny snobs are everywhere. My grandmother reminded me recently when arriving in Australia from Germany how the term kraut was always used. The migrating can be understood to be necessary at times, but imo it has gone too far of recent, and integration is also necessary too,which doesnt happen a lot, nor is it easy. And this issue is one of gender too. Somebody said that it is to suffer to wear a veil. Obviously that is a personal choice-when there is demos there is obviously some who dont deign it as suffering. Resolving this with the correct words will not happen. It is beyond that.

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Seems like Mangaman is a muslim apologist. The clear difference between the face veil, a surgical mask, a helmet, a halloween mask is this. If a police officer or law enforcement official stops a person wearing any one of these in order to identify them, only ONE will refuse to be identified due to RELIGOUS reasons. Still haven't talked to any apostates I see Mangaman. My uncle is muslim but his wife doesn't wear a face veil but only a head covering, one can identify her easily. As much as you keep trying to press this its pointless, the FRENCH have made THEIR decision to require a certain group to abide by THEIR LAWS and the ability for them to easily IDENTIFY someone requires that face veils be banned.

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Give me a heads-up when you've noticed a patern here.

Okay. I noticed a consistent pattern of complete non-sequitors as well as a pattern of refusing to them, admit them, or apologize for them.

Oh, please let me know when these people are rioting, stealing and burning cars.

How about you please let me know when 2,000 veiled women do those things? You do realize we are talking about veiled women right? Probably not.

All these people bar the aliens work for a living and speak French as a first language.

What is the first language of veil wearers? Prove it. And I guess you have no respect for those who are mothers since they don't "work for a living". Maybe France should just throw all the women out? Especially the school age ones.

And hey, Archie Bunker called. He wants his "reasoning" back!

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the ability for them to easily IDENTIFY someone requires that face veils be banned.

Only if one has a pea brain. There is also the option of making a law to remove the veil for police for purposes of identification or face arrest. It really was not difficult for me to think of that, and it acheives the "stated" goal while preserving freedom. This is why I concluded that all the stated goals are lies. That and this:

Seems like Mangaman is a muslim apologist.

Only from the perspective of an extreme bigot could I be labeled a Muslim apologist on this issue. If I were anything, I would be a veil apologist since this is not actually about Islam since it wont affect most Muslims. To declare me a Muslim apologist indicates where your own position is, which is anti-Islam, trying to apply your anti-Islam sentiments to this. To do it, you view the veiled women as a proxy and take your hate out on them.

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Nurse Olfa Belmanaa is opposed. “We are in France, we are in a democratic country where everyone has the right to do what they want. If they want to wear a veil or go completely nude that’s their right.”

Uh... no. That's not what democracy means. Democracy means that the majority rules, and if the majority says no burkas... then guess what... no burkas.

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Mangaman,

You are aware that a muslim veiled woman can ONLY remove the veil on the sole presence of another woman or at home.

So they CANNOT remove it for a male police-officer that stops her car and asks for identification, he would have to call in a female officer just for the identification.

Thus a male paramedic also could not give her assistance, as it has to be a female.

Looks like you are not well up on the islamic rules. This goes way deeper than just a face covering.

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HonestDictator: Seems like Mangaman is a muslim apologist.

Nah. Muslim women are just a means to an end for him, mostly a tool. He thinks he's found a way to debate from the "I support women's right and you can't disagree with me" point of view and he's using it as a club to hit as many people as possible. It's mostly about him.

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Managa,

"Okay. I noticed a consistent pattern of complete non-sequitors as well as a pattern of refusing to them, admit them, or apologize for them."

So you deny to acknowledge that practically every other immigrant other than the muslim (arab) immigrants integrate, speak the language and even respect their adopted country, on the contrary to many of the afore-mentioned.

What a surprise.

You fail to defend your earlier shrill and politically correct-esque comments about the Roma's that were deported from la Hexagone, having now learned that they were living illegaly, and committing crimes, as gypsies tend to do.

What a surprise.

"How about you please let me know when 2,000 veiled women do those things? You do realize we are talking about veiled women right? Probably not."

I'm talking about a large portion of 6 million individuals that refuse to even have respect for their adopted country, that by and large pays them not to work, coupled with a sytem that can only be seen as lucrative for them to reproduce like rabbits.

To see you so opinionated on an issue you clearly know nothing about is highly amusing. Earlier you were berating the French police for having the audacity to demand that a woman wearing a veil caught speeding in her automobiole was "forced" to remove the veil in an identity check!

Heh, how more ridiculous do you want to look?

If I wear a veil and drive my fire-breathing monster as fast as I possibly can and then refuse to remove it when finally stopped by John Law, do you think a similar reaction from me will hold the road? Do you think the judge will accept that I don't want to be identified because I'm a Jedi and hiding my face and driving fast is my religion?

There is no organized invasion along the lines of a hopped-up willib conspiracy. But these people live here, profit from the sytem, mock the adopted countries traditions and whine along with crazed uber-liberals when people have clearly had enough of them and their, let's face it, highly intolerant religion.

Just watch the up-coming 2012 election to gain insight. Marine Le Pen will be a sure secound rounder with Sarkozy, because people are fed-up. Finding someone that actually voted for Sarko last time is somewhere between finding a republican that voted W Bush, and a fart in a jaccuzi, but they'll all come to their senses to keep the extreme right from power, like in 2002 when people balloted with pegs on their noses for Chirac.

"And hey, Archie Bunker called. He wants his "reasoning" back!"

You're gonna have to explain thataone....

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Honest,

" My uncle is muslim but his wife doesn't wear a face veil but only a head covering, one can identify her easily. As much as you keep trying to press this its pointless, the FRENCH have made THEIR decision to require a certain group to abide by THEIR LAWS and the ability for them to easily IDENTIFY someone requires that face veils be banned."

Amen. Heh, and my girlfriend is a non-practicing muslim born in Algeria!

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@mangaman you have proven that you know squat about the veil or are intentionally turning a blind eye saying the sky is green when it is obviously blue. As Madverts has stated, only one religion that requires women to have their faces hidden every time they go outside. You're debate is meaningless in the fact you refuse to accept the fact that only in Islam do women wear veils as a requirement (depending on how they adhere to it) with penalties for not doing so. You can't keep trying to play the veil and burqa as issues seperate from Islam as much as you keep trying to.

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"Kenza Drider calls the decision racist." I find it funny that some muslims still can not understand that Islam is a "religious" ideology and not an ethnicity. Islam has nothing to do with the genetics one is born with.

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Looks like you are not well up on the islamic rules. This goes way deeper than just a face covering.

No Zenny, what it looks like is that you are not well up on logic. If that is the way it is and it cannot be changed, then the ban won't work either, will it? Either way, 2000 women in France must go to jail or be fined or whatever the punishment is. If my way won't work then neither will the ban.

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I find it funny that some muslims still can not understand that Islam is a "religious" ideology and not an ethnicity.

I find it funny that some people cannot understand that most Muslims in France are darker skinned and racially easy to recognize compared to the average Frenchman and that race is part of the hate.

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While Im not that familiar with France or Moslem rules etc. I think the idea that breed like rabbits is rather a personal opinion. How do rabbits reproduce, and how is that in anyway related to this topic here now? I cant see why a law stating that veils ought to be removed when ordered by an official isnt a lot more democratic than a total ban. I do sympathize with a land where their system can be abused by what you would term gypsies, but that isnt the sole definition of gypsie either now is it. And nor are we talking about Rome.

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Better watch it illsayit. You used the word "democracy" in the same sense as Olfa Belmanaa did and im3ngs is liable to take you task for it. Of course many people use the word to mean a country of freedom where rights are respected, like you did, but technically, that is wrong.

Funny part is though that im3ngs really does not know what democracy means even when he got technical. France is not a democracy. Its a representative democracy. There was no vote among the French people about this ban on veils. Apparently there were polls, but that is just not the same as people actually voting for the laws that govern them, which is technically what it means to live in a democracy.

But France has proven it is not a democracy even in the popular use of the word, as the rights of the minority have been trampled for no good reason, but only spite.

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As much as you keep trying to press this its pointless, the FRENCH have made THEIR decision to require a certain group to abide by THEIR LAWS and the ability for them to easily IDENTIFY someone requires that face veils be banned.

If this debate is pointless then most here are. I never expected to change the laws of France. I am not sure exactly why any of us debate this stuff. But one thing I would like to promote is the fact that I don't need to rejoice in the plight of an extreme minority in France to imagine pain in a larger minority over there to live a happy life. I don't need hate to be happy, and so, I hope some of you may learn to let go of yours one day. Logic and fairness suit me just fine.

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Who is racially biased? Most muslims in France are not "darker skinned" Sure some muslims come from africa but many also come from arab/persian descent as well (the religion itself was founding in the middle east). You're the one making the statement and assumption that the French expect dark skinned people to be usually muslim. Hilarious.

"But one thing I would like to promote is the fact that I don't need to rejoice in the plight of an extreme minority in France to imagine pain in a larger minority over there to live a happy life. I don't need hate to be happy, and so, I hope some of you may learn to let go of yours one day. Logic and fairness suit me just fine."

I find it interesting you assume that I and many others have hate for muslims in general. Wrong, I have a strong distaste for ISLAM and its ideology that encourage people who adhere to such a religion to do harm to those that don't believe in Islam (and even those that are muslim and not muslim enough in others eyes).

So I will say yes I'm happy when I see when a country wakes up to the aspects of social/political religion that is pushing situations that abuse the "Logic and Fairness" of democratic "free" societies in order to oppress others into dhimmitude when it has the chance. If Islam didn't have hundreds of terrorist organizations (you don't have an organization with just a "small group" of malcontents), and didn't encourage the descrimination and persecution of others that do not believe in Islam at its core and still required women to wear face veils, I seriously doubt any of use would care.

With the hundreds of examples of how harmful this "religous" ideology is (definitely too long a list for me to put here) I'm surprised you can't figure it out (the germans had the same issue with nazism when it first started).

Some of the men who are muslim have moved to other countries will not allow even a native woman of that country to walk down the street without harrassing her because she is in a muslim community without a headscarf let alone a veil (a requirement in most Islamic countries even for visitors). I could go on but you're set in your ways and won't figure it out until you find yourself in a situation that wakes you up.

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Countries around the world have different "acceptable dress codes", especially Islamic countries. There are other countries where legs or arms cannot be shown, it is considered disrespectful. I don't really see any issue with asking people in a western country to follow our "acceptable dress codes" either.

I'm torn with this French law, since my biased upbringing makes me distrust people whose faces I can't see, but religious freedom is important. Where I live, there are some religions that cannot perform their entire sacrament due to other laws. Those restrictions are part of coming to our country. I suspect that happens when visiting or moving to any country.

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The problem with these laws and rules regarding veils and headscarves is:

If the option is to go out in public with no veil/scarf or remain home ... a lot of women will be forced to remain home. Being in a western country does not spare women from things like FGM or honor killings. Some women probably make a free religious choice to cover themselves. And some might not. For those who do not, it isn't so simple as just not wearing it. These laws turn those women into prisoners.

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Monkeyz.

Problem is why should a few million people have to adjust for 2000?

This whole PC and having to accept others beliefs, etc has already gone way to far.

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Monkeyz:

" a lot of women will be forced to remain home. "

Forced by whom? The Taliban enforce the burkha in Afghanistan; do you think the womenfolks are grateful for this kind of freedom?

To present the radical islamic tenting of women as some kind of women`s rights is so upside down, it is unbelievable.

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Respect to the French and their government. I don't really care about what these types of people want to wear - but there is NO WAY they should be allowed to wear full coverage, head-to-toe, in public buildings, supermarkets, banks, trains or buses etc. Can I stroll into my local bank and conduct business in a balaclava or a full-face helmet? Of course not, that would be absurd. Let them stay at home if they insist on wearing this stuff.

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Forced by whom?

Back at you. If women are forced to wear veils by someone, then they could well be forced to stay home by someone. I am not the one who keeps insisting these women are forced to do anything despite the many who wear veils because they darn well want to.

If women are forced to do anything, then crack down on the forcer. Cracking down on the cloth is not much help, even counter productive to some, meanwhile it tramples the rights of women who want to cover themselves.

For some women, a bare face in public is the same as bare breasts in public for other women. And before you apply your cultural biases to that too, remember there are cultures where women walk around with breasts hanging out. Societies and even individuals have their own ideas of female modesty, and it should be society respecting the individual idea and not the other way around.

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Zenny11 said: Problem is why should a few million people have to adjust for 2000?

What a bizarre sentence to throw out there! The rest of France was not being forced to wear veils!

You could just as well ask why should the majority have to see subcultures like Goths with their black funeral attire or punk rockers with their mohawks and odd piecings! To equate individual choice in clothes as an inconvenience society just cannot bear is probably the most anti-freedom thing you have ever said Zenny11. Why not just make everyone wear they same plain style unisex gray robe so as to not offend anyone's eyes?

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Societies and even individuals have their own ideas of female modesty, and it should be society respecting the individual idea and not the other way around.

Sorry - individuals and cultures MUST adapt to the social norms accepted in the society. Are you saying that it is acceptable for women who come from a culture where bare breasts in public is acceptable, to walk around freely in Tokyo for example? Should we all just accept their decision to go topless? (Not that I'd complain mind you - but others possibly would!)

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You simply don't get it, sounds more and more you are only here to argue and don't care about the issue on hand.

Are you even European or of the muslim faith? If not what is your stake/experience in this discussion.

And to cut you short I am european by birth and my home-town has a large muslim, jewish, etc population.

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Mangaman,

Here is a different way to look at your point. In my home country we have rules and laws that say you cannot wear motorbike helmets, balaclava's etc into government buildings, petrol stations, banks shops etc for security reasons. Yet you can wear a veil or burka. Now as a person who as a lifestyle choice chooses to ride a motorbike l must obey these laws and rules no matter how much of a pain it is. Now take a person wearing a burqa or veil, that too is a personal choice, but they can walk into any of those above mentioned locations without removing there head covers. Why? Why am l being discrimitated against for my personal choice yet someone else who is equally covered can get away with it. Why can a small group of people do one thing because of personal choice yet others in the population are forced to do another?

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sounds more and more you are only here to argue and don't care about the issue on hand.

Not true but it would still trump arguing facetiously out of pure spite, which is what I think most of the pro ban people are doing.

If not what is your stake/experience in this discussion.

Getting people to see sense and reason so that they may have a mind to preserve freedom, rather than take it for granted over such a small minority.

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Their country, their laws. If you're dumb enough to not follow their laws, you deserve to be thrown in prison.

Now onto whether the law is right or not: I think it is, but more of a security reason than anything else. I don't have a problem with Islam or any other religious people wearing their religious clothing, but the problem I see with the burka is that they pose a huge security risk. If people are allowed to just wander about totally concealed, then how are guards/police etc. supposed to identify possible threats?

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AdamB said: In my home country we have rules and laws that say you cannot wear motorbike helmets, balaclava's etc into government buildings, petrol stations, banks shops etc for security reasons.

Well that is in government buildings and I would certainly complain less if that included veils not being allowed. But this is in public, IN PUBLIC. Surely motorcycle helmets with dark visors are a bigger problem! How many purse snatchings by motorbike are facilitated by such motorcycle helmets in France? Now, how many crimes commited by veil wearers in France?

Why can a small group of people do one thing because of personal choice yet others in the population are forced to do another?

It might have something to do with being able to tie baclavas and helmets to crime and terror attacks.

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Are you saying that it is acceptable for women who come from a culture where bare breasts in public is acceptable, to walk around freely in Tokyo for example?

Absolutely. It is truly such a minor thing to fret about.

Sorry - individuals and cultures MUST adapt to the social norms accepted in the society.

Within reason yes. We are not talking about people immigrants walking around with swords on their hips such as is their custom back home. This is just a stupid veil. A piece of cloth.

What if it was the Hare Krishnas? They don't exactly blend do they? Certainly there is more of them just about anywhere in the west?

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Mangaman:

" It is truly such a minor thing to fret about. "

Shariah is not a "minor thing to fret about".

" This is just a stupid veil. A piece of cloth. "

It is a a piece of cloth that turns the wearer into a faceless object.

By the same token, would you also be OK with the face covering if they were white and pointy?

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Adam- you gentleman. You missed the point on freedom of religion. Thank goodness you are not my gentle-man; you couldnt handle me!

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Illsayit.

Not sure what you are rambling about.

I have moved countries a few times myself, my family is very international covering multiple faiths and nations.

Your point being I cannot fathom.

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Mangaman,

"It might have something to do with being able to tie baclavas and helmets to crime and terror attacks." So you are saying no one has ever committed a crime wearing a burqa or veil. I think you need to do some research as there are several cases of this occuring.

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illsayit,

"You missed the point on freedom of religion" no actually l didnt miss the point. I understand that people would like to wear their clothing in line with their religious beliefs. However l think you and others miss the point that a country should have the right to ban something that they do not agree with whether it be for security reasons or whatever. My point is as a non muslim what would happen to me if l went to Saudi Arabia or similar country and my wife wore a bikini, or we kissed in public etc. We would get arrested because that is their laws so you dont do it. Now France has set a law that requires something and you are claiming religious freedom, would you protest the same for the laws imposed by muslim countries? I doubt it.

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