French parliament debates ban on burqa-style veils

grafton, you are dragging all sorts of unrelated crap into this. Its your making this about Islam that is the source of all your trouble, and nothing else. I already clearly stated I am not in this to defend Islam, so lay off.

I assume you are also aware that married Muslim men wear beards as a sign of piety. Are you also going to ban all beards on the off chance that a man only has one because he is married and Muslim? In the same way, a veil is a sign of piety for some, but for others it has other reasons and functions. It is NOT a relious symbol. It is cloth worn by SOME for religious reasons. If you can't see that, then we have to ditch Kippah and enforce cutting of payot too.

In short, its all fashion, and its irrelevant whether the fashion has its roots in religion or not. Its too intermingled with culture to separate. And if you trying to define and separate culture is as pointless as trying to define art and its fascist to boot.

MistWizard at 06:18 PM JST - 8th July

“Mistwizard is half right, for many this is a negative reaction to Islam and because of legal safeguards in Europe Muslims have protections in place that mean the only way that a country can defend it’s own culture against Islam is by legal trickery like this. Many people in Europe want an end to this creeping Islamic “culture” that is spreading through many European cites. But because of race laws they are gagged and cannot say what they really feel,”

“you are proving my assertion that this not about headscarves but rather about worry over Islam”

I think you will find that is what I originally wrote. But I will simplify it and say that European law makes it extremely difficult to be critical of Islam, so the only way around this is to undermine what can be attacked without being accused of being “racist” or being anti Muslim. Where did my human right to free speech go when Islam highjacked European law to defend what I see as the indefensible?

For me a right to free speech is far more important that a right to believe in and practice a religion that is backward and oppressive and is encroaching on values that should never be encroached on. You fail to defend my right to free speech while defending the rights Muslims to deny me my rights. Your posts prove that you are not a foolish person so I am left with the feeling that you would argue with yourself if nobody else posted on a thread. You know what is happening in Europe and yet look for ways to defend those that are instigating that. In an ideal world none of what we are talking about would matter, but this is not an ideal world and many of the people you defend are a million times more “anti” me (and you) than I could ever be. No, not all Muslims fall into category but let me ask you why a woman is about to be stoned to death in Iran for adultery and not a single moderate Muslim voice has been raised against this while the out cry among none Muslims is coming from all corners of the globe? There is a quote that I only half remember about while good men remain silent evil wins. I am sure you know it better than I. Now tell me why I should feel anything positive for such a silent and or barbaric religion?

" "I don't like it!" is not a valid reason to block them"

Of course it is. It's not welcome in our culture. Especially not the most intolerant sect known to man.

I've seen what bending over backwards to fundie muslims has done to my country of origin.

I am all for doing things to make sure no one is forced into a burqua. But forcing women NOT to wear a burqa is also a problem. "I don't like it!" is not a valid reason to block them, not any more than Japan's recent beard ban among postal workers. And "I don't like it!" is basically how I interpret a statement like saying it has no place in our society.

France.

Madverts said: The general consensus here is that it has no place in our society.

Where is here? And I don't think this is a majority rules deal. Its a rights issue.

Religious symbols, I wasn't clear enough. Crucifix, yarmukle et al. And only in public institutions.

Through the course of doing business here I've met a lot of muslim arabs thought these days I avoid doing deals with them, it's too much like hard work. They all, without exception treat their ladies from simple servants, to downright nasty.

It figures that they would be scared when asked by a stranger/pollster if they liked or were forced to wear it.

The general consensus here is that it has no place in our society. If you absolutely want it, like dressing in a latex gimp suit with a ball gag, please do it in the privacy of your own home. There are plenty of muslim lands were they can live out these domination fantasies without insisting we accept them in our culture.

Madverts said: The issue isn't head-scarves, it's the Burkha and the Niquab, garments that cover the entore body and face, leaving these poor women looking somewhat like a letter-box.

You may be correct. But I don't think they are all "poor" women. Some are, but some want to wear it I believe.

it was a ban an all visible religious paraphanalia

Maybe, but its hard to distinguish between what is religious and what is just clothes. It could be said all clothing is religious. Some would say we started from fig leaves and worked our way up. Otherwise, why should I have to cover my junk?

Maybe my notions are like the hodge podge cities and towns of Star Wars, but if you want to go naked or wear an astronaut suit, that is fine up until a real problem happens. Have not seen that real problem yet.

Grafton,

"Like you I may also be voting with my feet if things don’t get better, though selling property in Spain and the UK at this time might not be either that easy or that profitable, we will see."

France is prettty similar, especially for all these strange ex-pats that want to go back to what's left of the UK! But they aren't leaving because of the muslims that's for sure, the exchange rate is a misery!

"you are proving my assertion that this not about headscarves but rather about worry over Islam."

The issue isn't head-scarves, it's the Burkha and the Niquab, garments that cover the entore body and face, leaving these poor women looking somewhat like a letter-box.

The media somewhile back made strabge assertions about a "headscarf ban" in France, which was not a ban on headscarves, it was a ban an all visible religious paraphanalia.....(though there's no doubt in my mind that it was a veiled (no-pun) legislation on French muslims!)

Oh, and I am not defending Islam with this. I am defending the right of women to wear headscarves and veils if they want, I don't care what faith they are. If some Christian woman wants to wear a Victorian era style black veil for a year after her husband dies, or heck, as a fashion foible, I will defend her too.

Europe is facing an abyss and pretending that Islam isn’t the fuse that will ignite the fire here is childish

Well aside from grossly oversimplifying a complicated matter, you are proving my assertion that this not about headscarves but rather about worry over Islam. Let the scarves go.

Below is a quote from the above article that you obviously didn’t read very well.

Obviously? Fact of the matter is I got my population estimate from Wiki and I chose it over a larger estimate from yet another source. What is obvious here is that my attempt to be fair and unbiased and even deferential is being used against me as you lot try to negotiate me from a fair position that leans more toward your position on the extreme right and still proves you over-reactive. Nope, sorry, I am not budging and this is not a negotiating table. I give it to you straight and fair first time and you can take it or leave it. The percentage I gave to you was the maximum allowable and as in your favor as it could have ever been. I even divided the population in half to account for female Muslims rather than all Muslims. And what do I get for my fairness and detail? I can only conclude that you and the other Muslim bashers just don't care for the truth. Its inconvenient to your agendas. Makes me wish I could clone my grandma and have her raise your kids, because the world really does not need any more of you ignorers of the truth doing it so you can oppress an extreme minority of scarf wearers or any one else. My grandma clone would not have it. Neither will I.

The real difficulty that is faced here is that Islam as a religion is bonded to a culture, no other religion is so closely linked to a culture that it feels the need to carry that culture with it where ever it settles in the world.

A point for another thread. However, the Jews have certainly been giving the Muslims a run for their money. Certainly headscarves are the least of our worries.

Your words about your travels was indeed refreshing. But it also adds to the mystery of how you can travel so much and maintain your narrow minded bigotry over something as harmless as a damned head scarf.

Some of the post we read here are from people who left their home land to work in Japan and believe that makes them seasoned travellers when in fact they have no idea.

Not only have I never claimed to be or acted like a seasonsed traveller, its beside the point. Kant is one of the greatest philosphers ever, but never traveled very far outside of his hometown. And you are proving that traveling can only expand a mind so far and only make it accepting of so much tolerance. Headscarf! Hello?

I suggest having a look at make-up and hats and sunglasses and fake beards like I mentioned. You can put toupees and dyed hair in there as well. The only real difference with a headscarf is that it is just not part of our culture that we grew up with, ie its the stupid bigoted animal side of the brain that has such a problem. I don't know if pointing to the base and low animal psychology reason for so much of the bigotry and intolerance here will do any good. But what else is there?

Madverts at 08:45 AM JST - 8th July

Sorry for the rant, though it does say what I think. Not at all interested in football but had been “enjoying” a night out with Spanish friends so wasn’t perhaps as sober as I maybe should have been. It was a good night…….. I do think that things are changing in Europe in respect to how much the Muslim radicals are getting away with, Britain’s Labour government gave them a near free hand and in itself that has created an amazing backlash in the UK alone, but a stand does seem to be being made, sadly maybe too little too late. Like you I may also be voting with my feet if things don’t get better, though selling property in Spain and the UK at this time might not be either that easy or that profitable, we will see. Thank you for you comments.

Thanks for that Grafton. Most refreshing, and naturally my comments regarding football shirts mean especially the Brits on the Costa del Crime.

The way things are going in France, coupled with the national arrogance will more than likely end up with me voting sooner rather than later with my feet. That said, I fully respect their insistence in refusing to cave in to the whims of the muslims. And besides, to the angry muslim youth here, being muslim doesn't involve going to the mosque or following the scriptures. It means avoiding eating pork and pretending to do ramadan, but drugs, alcohol or prostitutes is strangely acceptable. Go figure!

Eiter way thanks for your post.

Madverts at 01:46 AM JST - 8th July

“And football....sorry, "soccer" shirts on every Brit abroad?”

Yes, please a law that is really hard and cruel and in Spain as well as France. Perhaps especially in Spain.

“Either you live in Europe or you're well read, Grafton.”

Yes, no, both. Well read? Perhaps, I hope. I come to Spain every July and August if it is at all possible and have just come up from the bar downstairs (it’s nice having a bar in your apartment block) where I have been watching Spain beat Germany, I hate football but the Spanish are beautifully mad, especially tonight.

Over the years we use being in Spain as a means of travelling around Europe, London for a few weeks, Prague, Paris, Barcelona, even Madrid if there is a good enough reason. Coming back to visit places we have known over the years we see changes that maybe the locals don’t see because the changes have been gradual, be that here or in England. Add to that friends telling us how things have gone bad and some of those friends are Muslims. I am not the monster that I sometimes make myself out to be, that’s done to “entertain” Mistwizard and Sabi the resident Islamic apologists. Europe is changing, Switzerland took a stand, then Belgium, now France. The Nederland’s is simply a place not to go to any more (well I am older and married so …..).

When it was simply skinheaded yobs it was possible to ignore what was happening, but now real intelligent people are taking up strong hard line positions and even to small degree governments are making a stand, albeit little stands. Some of the post we read here are from people who left their home land to work in Japan and believe that makes them seasoned travellers when in fact they have no idea. Europe is facing an abyss and pretending that Islam isn’t the fuse that will ignite the fire here is childish. Idealism is simply not going to stop the fanatics pushing and pushing. London was my home, but it has changed into a place I don’t want to go back to.

Exactly Grafton. The behaviour of an immigrated community in their host country shows how well they integrate with the society and laws they're introduced to. Most of it has been pretty bad.

@Mist, nothing says they have to stop wearing burqas if they choose, I just don't see it as being respectable to the host country to cover ones face due to religious aspects when it conflicts with a law enforcement aspect. The face is the first thing anyone looks at to identify a person. If it was in some Islamic governed country and that was their law then np. But its not, its France and they can do what they feel safe with especially in this case.

"There is a resentment growing in Europe against Muslims because of their own behaviour"

And that, is the best point on this thread. Either you live in Europe or you're well read, Grafton.

"If we're going to make stupid laws regarding fashion, can we also get a ban on spandex for anyone with a body fat percentage over 25. Just sayin'."

And football....sorry, "soccer" shirts on every Brit abroad?

If we're going to make stupid laws regarding fashion, can we also get a ban on spandex for anyone with a body fat percentage over 25. Just sayin'.

Taka

Mistwizard, as you know I always try my best to help wherever I can. Below is a quote from the above article that you obviously didn’t read very well. Now you will have to recalculate and it will be to your advantage. Don’t you just hate getting it wrong? By the way the subject here is about Muslims so that is what I wrote about, but had it been the Catholics I would have been just as negative and treated them as a monolithic group as well, I am not a bigot, I detest all religions.

“Yet the planned law would be a turning point for Islam in a country with a Muslim population of at least 5 million people, the largest in western Europe.”

The real difficulty that is faced here is that Islam as a religion is bonded to a culture, no other religion is so closely linked to a culture that it feels the need to carry that culture with it where ever it settles in the world. This is the reason that Muslims find it so hard to integrate into the counties they settle in. They bring with them both barriers and hostilities that make it impossible for them to integrate while demanding protections that no Muslim country would reciprocate. If I live in another country then I accept the laws of that country I do not try to demand exceptions because things are done differently in my country. There is a resentment growing in Europe against Muslims because of their own behaviour. It can only lead to violence and it will. That is not my paranoia, that is just how Europe is today. And Mistwizard I do know that there different types of Muslim, the same way Muslims know that there are different types of American and British and…….

Ha - my youngest son saw a woman in the supermarket wearing a full burqa - black in color - and said 'look dad, a ninja!'

I think it's a horrible tradition that is perpetrated upon women by the misogynist males in Islamic cultures. How would they like to wear this hot crap in sweltering weather? Witness a recent scene at a local lake here in NY. The Muslim man in swim trunks and no shirt frolicking in the water while his poor wife is nearly passing out wrapped up from head to toe in this nonsensical garment. BUT - passing legislation to tell people what they cannot wear, particularly when it is based upon their culture or personal beliefs, is bad business.

But anther problem is that they (Muslims) can only see it from one side. Typically for most of us we are taught that when we go to a foreign country we must comply with traditions there. Yes, there is the 'ugly American' syndrome. But for folks that would move to different parts of the world, they typically assimilate with the society they are entering rather than trying to change laws and social acceptances by expecting their new host nation to cater to their wants. For example, if I move to France, I don't expect them to conduct business with me in English just because I don't speak French; I should learn the language.

The problem is with the huge influx of Muslims to western nations like Britain, France and the US is that the assumption has become that we should adjust to the cultural differences promulgated by this influx, rather than them adjusting to a more western lifestyle, which has typically been the norm. And there is no reversal of this, i.e. Westerners moving into primarily Muslim regions and insinuating their cultures because no westerners want to live in these third world hovels (unless we're unfortunately invading them).

So then the unfortunate question of a 'cultural tainting' if you will is raised. Go to London these days and rather than Britons in banker suits and bowler hats it looks more like downtown Pakistan. You can't blame the indigenous inhabitants for being angered by this. No more so than you can blame a different culture for being force-fed a more western way of life. When they pass laws against things, or don't accept our ways in other countries, they are protecting their cultures. When we try to do the same we are horrible racists.

mist,

"There are about 2,000,000 Muslims in France, and only 1,900 of them are even wearing headscarves let alone full veils"

Despite the laws regarding lacism in France which more or less forbids collecting data on people's relligious freedoms, the ministry of inerior estimated the number of Muslims to 4.1 million plus about 40,000 converts back in the year 2000. And they do like to breed.

I'm not sure how they'll implement this law should it pass, but I like the general idea of not taking any crap from people that refuse by and large to integrate, the majority of them that live of the French lefts' gift of a giant social tit for anyone that can't be bothered to get a job to suck on.

If anyone followed the case of the woman in La Rochelle recently stopped and verbalised by the police for driving wearing a veil then refusing to show her face on a roadside check can see how the French are prepared to deal with it. Heh, I bet her husband regrets taking on the system....

I work with quite a few Saudis and from what I've been told, the full face covering comes and goes based pretty much on fashion trends. From what I've been led to believe, the current trend is to wear the headscarf, but not the face covering. In this respect, the full face covering is not an integral part of the Islamic faith, but just one way of many to show it.

But, in saying that, I've found that many of the Saudi women I've met switch to the full face covering when in a Western country, as they are out of their comfort zone and resort to a more conservative approach to life when in that situation. They will live with the full face covering here, then switch to just the headscarf when they return home.

As HonestDictator says, they should just concentrate the law on not covering one's face in public for identification purposes and move the argument completely out of the religious area. The next question would be if we really need to legislate to stop people covering their face. Is it really an existing problem in society? Do we really need such a law? If not, then this whole thing is just religious bigotry. If we do need the law, then it should be passed based on the good outweighing any negative effects.

"They ( Muslims ) actually disagree among themselves"

We see that virtually every day.

grafton, you seriously need to stop seeing Muslims has being a monolithic group like uniform bricks in a wall. They actually disagree among themselves, even about this issue. And a random Muslim in France has nothing to do with the situation in Iran.

There are about 2,000,000 Muslims in France, and only 1,900 of them are even wearing headscarves let alone full veils. If half of the 2 million are women, that means 00.19 percent are wearing them, so please give your paranoia about the spread of veils a rest. You are going to do your heart damage for no good reason.

Despite the things that drive me crazy about France, at least they have the common sense to stand up to the muslims, a sect I remind you all best known for its intolerance....

....well, after the hideous acts of terror they vomit up on a regular basis of course.

Intergrate, or leave.

The only veils that need banning are these veiled attacks on this Islamic tradition.

It is a tradition that deserves to be attacked, not because it is Islamic, but because it is misogynic.

The burka is just another example of ridiculous apparel designed by men to make women look ridiculous. The French fashion industry has been doing it for centuries. Are they afraid of the competition?

If people want to walk around dressed in tents, good luck to them. No government, especially the French government, has any business telling people what to wear.

Mistwizard is half right, for many this is a negative reaction to Islam and because of legal safeguards in Europe Muslims have protections in place that mean the only way that a country can defend it’s own culture against Islam is by legal trickery like this. Many people in Europe want an end to this creeping Islamic “culture” that is spreading through many European cites. But because of race laws they are gagged and cannot say what they really feel, what they should have a right to be able to say.

Islamic counties have retained the right to rule as they wish without accusations of being racist while Western counties have hamstrung themselves with laws that protect the freedoms of people that do not themselves believe in freedom. One of the extreme contradictions that show up in this is the European Left’s defence of Islam, a religion that abhors almost everything that the Left stands for. Muslim women are chattels not people, everything the feminists have fought against. Current European laws are protecting Islamic oppression and there can’t be anything more contradictory than that.

If Islam wishes to maintain and protect both it’s religion and it’s culture then it must realise that the same is true of other religions and cultures. They cannot demand rights for themselves that they are not willing to see others have. But that is what they do. My own view is that any belief in mythical beings is a mental aberration that human kind simply doesn’t need and the idea that a religious ideology can demand rights in a society that put them outside that society is insanity. Islam is an alien religion to Europe and as such its growth is a cancer that is harmful and will eventually lead to social unrest and violence. The majority do not want it but cannot say that openly because of laws that protect it. Remove those laws and Mistwizard would see what people really believe said openly. Though it would not be what he wants to see.

Actually, its your exclusive society idea that means you should be the one going to live in Iran. Can't you see that?

Why don't you join them in Iran? We'll have our no veil society, and you can have your muslim wonderland.

The only veils that need banning are these veiled attacks on this Islamic tradition. I think at least half of the supporters are just desperately searching for a way to oppress Muslims, any Muslims. Yet even among Muslims its not so common for women to wear a full veil.

I could accept a law against parents and others forcing women to wear them against their will, but will that also apply to the father who takes one look at his daughter and says "You are NOT leaving this house dressed like THAT young lady!" It cuts both ways. If parents can't force girls to wear veils, then what about longer skirts and slacks?

You would have to be half-retarded to not be able to see the relationship between a woman's face and sexual interest. Some women wear veils to avoid sexual harrassment and approaches. Other women wear make-up to invite approaches. Others wear make-up and complain about approaches. They would do better with a veil.

HonestDictator said: a person that can't be identified by looking at their face alone is a serious issue.

No, its not. There is no need to identify random people on the street. A law requiring removal of the veil for identification purposes by police when necessary would be acceptable though.

However, a new hairstyle, a pair of glasses and some make-up can also make a person unidentifiable. Yet you are not all hot to ban them. A fake beard can do the same. Where is the fear of them.

I am telling you, at least half of this is just anti-Islam sentiments. The rest is stupidity.

Just make it illegal to cover one's face. I mean seriously, a person that can't be identified by looking at their face alone is a serious issue. I like how one Arabic woman working as a reporter for Al Jazeera if I'm correct stated she will not have her face (as she put it, her identity) stolen away from her.

Religion is supposed to be a belief system, not the Mardi Gras. People who think they are being devout because they dress up in peculiar garments don't really understand what it's all about.

Go France!! Take your country back. Don't be like the British whimps who are giving their country away.

Good. It's about time we start to respect our own cultures again and not be afraid to stand up for ourselves from fear of being 'racist'.