French Senate passes ban on full Muslim veils

All that to crack down on an extreme minority that was not hurting anyone. So much for "liberte egalite fraternite". Those ideas have been stabbed in the back to make political hay.

No its specifically for face covering and full body coverings. Think about it Mist. If someone wanted to sneak in a weapon, explosive, hazerdous chemical (even basic smuggling) into any public area, its the easiest way to conceal it as the politically correct law would say "go ahead we trust you" while those who wish to do harm think, "This is so easy!". Face veil = inability to identify a person. Full body veil = ability to conceal something harmful.

I don't mind political correctness, but there are some times when you really have to balance what is safe for EVERYONE, and what is only catering to a few.

Good for France and common sense.

"If someone wanted to sneak in a weapon, explosive, hazerdous (sic) chemical (even basic smuggling) into any public area, its the easiest way to conceal it "

Or just put it under your coat, in bag, backpack and on and on.

Think you have seen to many movies where the wide eyed bomber open her "burqa-style Islamic veil" and chants just before she hits the switch on the dynamite vest.

Here is a little bit of info for many who think this is just a Muslim bashing law, France and other nations that are not Islamic have "requested" many time that people who cover their faces at least follow the laws of the country.

Some of those basic laws that apply to you and me are that we cannot enter a public building with our faces covered and the same when flying, driving a car and many other situations.

Unfortunately a certain minority of hard line Muslims that interpret Islam in an incorrect way refused to follow those basic rules stating their "religious rights" trump civil laws.

When you are faced with those who think they are not subject to the same rules as the rest, then you breed resentment and the result is a more draconian response.

The general publics reaction is that of: Why do I face fines for driving my car with my face covered or why must I remove my helmet when entering a government facility few just a few seconds to drop a package off but these people do not!

Think about it folks had these hard line groups just followed standard rules that all the rest of us must adhere to then none of this would have happened.

Watch for another Fatwa coming from the religion of peace.

RR

Eiffel Tower evacuated after a bomb threat made the same day that the vote to ban the burkha passed.

Pure coincidence, you can be sure.

Unfortunately a certain minority of hard line Muslims that interpret Islam in an incorrect way refused to follow those basic rules stating their "religious rights" trump civil laws.

There seem to be hundreds of thousands of muslim apostates that tend to disagree with the bit about an "incorrect" interpretation of Islam. I'm sure they just happened to misunderstand the religion they were born into and raised under.

"Unfortunately a certain minority...refuse(s) to follow those basic rules stating their "religious rights" trump civil laws." This is one of the most intelligent statements I have read in a long time. Maybe if people keeps saying it, people of all religions will one day understand; civil laws first, susperstitions second.

"Under your coat, in bag, backpack and on and on" Coats, backpacks, etc. are checked for such things. Trying to check under a burka or veil would get you hurt.

HonestDictator:"There seem to be hundreds of thousands of muslim apostates that tend to disagree with the bit about an "incorrect" interpretation of Islam."

Yes "incorrect interpretation" Muslims in west Africa and much of the north west Africa have never worn full body Burqas or veiled there faces they do cover their heads and the same in places like Indonesia and Malaysia.

Recently through so-called aid groups veils and full body covering is being pushed on the people in those areas, this is locally called "Arabization" and it is precisely the thing France is trying to avoid.

I can't think of anything more shallow than people with the conviction they will somehow please god by draping themselves in ridiculous attire.

This ban is far, far more draconian and provocative than denying Moslems one more mosque in New York city - - where they already have over 100. This affects the daily lives of millions of Moslem women all over France.

Why can't the French be as tolerant as we in America?

I worry this will just encourage the historical racism and xenophobia that - - let's face it - - is not that far below the surface among European peoples.

It is a sad day for women's rights, for human rights, for freedom of religion in France.

And to think - American progressives spent the last few decades scolding the rest of us for not being more like the Europeans.

I heartly wellcome this ban. Think wisely if we go to middle east countries we are supposed to follow their customs, outsider womens have to give up skirts and jeans. So when they enter others country they must also respect and follow their customs. Just cool.

So much for Frances motto of 'Equality'. Forcing someone to do what they do not wish to do, for whatever reason, is not equality or freedom in any sense of the words.

Big step back for France.

Forcing someone to do what they do not wish to do,

Sorry, goverments restrict stuff and always have. Live with it or leave, no-one is forcing you to stay.

The bill is worded to trip safely through legal minefields. For instance, the words “women,” “Muslim” and “veil” are not even mentioned in any of its seven articles.

That's because the bill is about public security.

Forcing someone to do what they do not wish to do, for whatever reason, is not equality or freedom

If u want freedom go live in the jungle... there are no laws

Forcing someone to do what they do not wish to do, for whatever reason, is not equality or freedom in any sense of the words.

I agree wholeheartedly. From now on, let's all just do what we want, where we want and when we want. We don't need no stickin' rules or laws.

Forcing someone to do what they do not wish to do, for whatever reason, is not equality or freedom in any sense of the words.

Ah, I'm glad we agree. I've always wanted to visit Mecca. Oh, but I have no intention of converting to Islam. I'm sure you agree that I ought to be allowed right? I mean, you're all about freedom and equality right? What, its ok for Muslim countries to require non muslims to conform to their rules, but not for a non Muslim countries to do the same? Hows that work?

Vive la France!

Molenir said: What, its ok for Muslim countries to require non muslims to conform to their rules, but not for a non Muslim countries to do the same?

If France is going to be as stupid as Saudi Arabia, that is about the only sanction I can enforce, saying they are as stupid as Saudi Arabia. I should hope they would do better. Especially given the principles France claims to have. Saudi does not make the claim, so while they may be equally stupid, only France is being hypocritical.

betterdays said: If u want freedom go live in the jungle... there are no laws

I think you are missing the point. Yes, we need laws, but we don't need them for every single fricken thing particularly when we are talking about 1,900 women not hurting anyone.

HonestDictator said: No its specifically for face covering and full body coverings. Think about it Mist. If someone wanted to sneak in a weapon, explosive, hazerdous chemical (even basic smuggling) into any public area, its the easiest way to conceal it as the politically correct law would say "go ahead we trust you" while those who wish to do harm think, "This is so easy!". Face veil = inability to identify a person. Full body veil = ability to conceal something harmful.

What you need to do is stop imagining worst case scenarios and find some related incidents that really happened. Fact is, those so dressed draw massive attention to themselves by security personel, and that might explain why you won't be able to come up with any real examples of the veils and burkhas being a problem. Women's stockings have been used for decades by bank robbers though. Where is the ban?

No, I think it is a bad to idea to legislate based on your darkest imaginings. We do that, and pretty soon we will have to get special government permission to leave the house, as any one of us might suddenly do something wrong. No way. That is why we solve problems AFTER they come, not before.

I've never known any European country to set forth such restrictive measures, but France has proven itself time and time again. Sorry to say, they are not the friendliest nation. As a result, I'm sure tourism will drop tremendously as a result of this measure. Yes, we are all moving backwards in life. Now we are all picking on the Muslims and telling them what they can't wear? Next we will be telling Muslim women where they can and can't sit on a bus (does Rosa Parks sound familiar). By the way, I'm a Caucasian American.

MistWizard: "I think you are missing the point. Yes, we need laws, but we don't need them for every single fricken thing particularly when we are talking about 1,900 women not hurting anyone."

I think perhaps you are missing the point, France has requested on many occasions that these people remove their veils during certain activities and in certain sensitive place only to be given the middle finger salute.

Then they looked at places like West Africa, North Africa and place like Nigeria, were there Muslim have always be tolerant but as Hard line Arabization has entered these places women's rights and freedoms have been going the way of the Dodo.

In Nigeria where it is around 50/50 Muslim, non-Muslim in many places it has become un-livable as the Sharia police stop anyone they feel is violating Sharia law even if they are not Muslim ( contrary to the National laws and civil laws) but by the time non-Musilms get their say in real court it is often months later and after the Sharia punishment has been carried out.

France tried and tried and tried but the hardliners on the Muslim side refused to even talk until it was to late and even then only to say that their religion trumps French law.

I think many here think this is something new, well folks this has been debated and debated for more than 25 years in France, That is how patient the French have been on this subject.

If France is going to be as stupid as Saudi Arabia, that is about the only sanction I can enforce, saying they are as stupid as Saudi Arabia. I should hope they would do better. Especially given the principles France claims to have. Saudi does not make the claim, so while they may be equally stupid, only France is being hypocritical.

Hmm, so Saudi Arabia is being stupid by not allowing non Muslims to actively participate and visit their country, and non Muslim countries are being smart, by allowing Muslims to enter their countries, and not conform, or fit into their societies? Thats an interesting take on things. Allow me to simply disagree. If Muslims wish to have freedom, then they should meet the standards in the society that offers such. If they cannot, or will not, then they should seek out the country which feels most comfortable for them. In the case of these people who feel only wearing veils is acceptable, I'd like to suggest Saudi Arabia or Iran. Depending on the flavor of their sect.

The bill is aimed at ensuring gender equality, women’s dignity and security, as well as upholding France’s secular values—and its way of life.

There seems to be an assumption that those who wear the veils are being forced to do so. Are they all forced to do so. How about other religions; for example, are male babies from a certain other religion forced to undergo a circumcision, or is it their choice?

As for upholding France's secular values, are they banning the use of religious symbols from all religions or only Muslim ones?

Has a serious crime ever been committed in France where such a veil was used to prevent identification?

246 to 1 in favor of the bill

This is about much, much more than the veil.

sabiwabi:"As for upholding France's secular values, are they banning the use of religious symbols from all religions or only Muslim ones?"

No religious symbols have been band here (except in public schools and government offices were YES all religious symbols are band).

The Veil and Burka are not part of the Muslim religion Just ask those in Malaysia, Indonesia, West Africa, etc...

It is an Middle east leftover from even before Islam and as I have mentioned before it is being spread by hardliners in many places and often through coercion and threats.

Head veils are not covered by this only full body covering and face veils, so basically any women from west Africa, Asia will have no problem going of living in France.

I will ask this question to all, Why should it be illegal form me to drive my car with a full face helmet ( maybe I'm ultra safety conscious) but these people feel they have the right due to religion to drive their cars with their face covered, same goes for boarding a plane or entering a government facility.

Molenir: "Ah, I'm glad we agree. I've always wanted to visit Mecca. Oh, but I have no intention of converting to Islam. I'm sure you agree that I ought to be allowed right?"

I'm surprised your showing up after the savage beating you took on here yesterday, but hey, if you really can't see that France promotes a system of equality and 'fraternity', and freedom for all, whereas Saudi Arabia purports nothing of the sort, then you you deserve the verbal thrashing you get (and again, this from a guy who claims the Bush years were the 'boom' years!).

betterdays: "If u want freedom go live in the jungle... there are no laws"

You guys crack me up, especially since a number of you come from the US are would shoot someone dead if they tried to take 'your gawd-given right' to own a gun and refuse to have it registered if such gun-control measures were put into effect. Yet when a country like France claims to be tolerant, takes pride in its multi-culturalism, freedoms, and what not this goes FLAT against it. It's not arguing that someone should be able to do 'whatever they want' against currently existing laws that HELP maintain the freedoms and liberties, what's wrong with this system is that it's denying ONE GROUP its right to exercise religious practices based on the actions of paranoid morons in politics. And again, one of the worst parts is that they are defending by saying they are not 'targeting Muslims' (which they clearly are), but they are making it so that 'all women are equal', which is a ridiculous claim because these Muslim women are not free to do what others are. It's not an issue of security either, as there are all SORTS of baggy clothes people wear that could hide weapons. It's an issue of intolerance, and like I said France has taken a leap back in terms of their motto.

France, I believe, is still the number one tourist destination in the world. As countries like France express more and more intolerance towards Muslims, I hope that the rich Muslims and visitors pull out investments and stop visiting about this issue. I'm sure the government will beg some, and make 'exceptions' to the daughters/wives of rich Muslims, but I hope all the same people change their travel destinations and put their business in cultures that will actually tolerate differences instead of just differences 'they like'.

Molenir said: Hmm, so Saudi Arabia is being stupid by not allowing non Muslims to actively participate and visit their country, and non Muslim countries are being smart, by allowing Muslims to enter their countries, and not conform, or fit into their societies?

Do we have go from less than 2,000 women and tie this bill to all Muslim immigrants to France? Is it possible for you to lay your anti-Muslim sentiments aside for just one thread? Because man, burquas and veils are the least of your worries even within the scope of your irrational intolerant ideas.

limboinjapan said: but these people feel they have the right due to religion to drive their cars with their face covered, same goes for boarding a plane or entering a government facility.

It takes a childish mind to chose a total ban rather than a ban in specific places in circumstance where it is warranted. Driving, boarding a plane and entering government facilites are instances that could be specifically legislated, with a ban on the first and required checks for the latter two. Instead, the children of the French legislature choose ban them on the sidewalk, in parks, in shopping centers, EVERYWHERE but at home, and children posting here support that.

Again, I ask what is going to happen with virus masks, prosthetic faces, ski masks in winter and on ski slopes, veils of mourning, helmets on motorcycles (yeah, driving), costume parties, etc. etc. ad naseum. Words like Muslim, veil, and woman may not be featured in the bill, but it is still patently obvious the source of it is bigotry and intolerance.

Forgive my atrocious grammar in the last post -- the computer I'm working on is absolute garbage, and the keyboard buffer can't keep up with my typing and the changes I make. In fact, I'm going to turn it off now.

MistWizard: Read what I wrote again and you will see that France HAS TRIED over and over again to get these people to obey the laws and over and over again they have refused.

There have been countless confrontations in front of schools, government building and so on over the past years and every time it is this small vocal group that then insights other to cause more trouble.

I would suggest that you look at what have been brewing for quite some time now before you wholly condemn France.

smithinjapan: "France promotes a system of equality and 'fraternity"

Yes it does and that is the problem these people don't want equality they want special treatment, they have over and over refused to be "equal" and demanded exceptions to the laws and rules and often in a violent manor.

Several year ago the French government in an attempt to ease tensions broke from tradition and funded an Islamic friendship centre in Marseille only to have it usurped by fundamentalist who promptly barded any women from the certre that did not cover up as they demanded, This is what France has had to contend with.

I still can't get over the near unanimity among French politicians on this matter - 246 for the ban, 1 against.

It's like they have a 1 party system or something.

Since I really don't know much about the place (but I have some French friends, and I like French cinema, sort of) I will just chalk up the bigotry and the hatred to right wing cable TV, and out of control religiosity on behalf of the native Christian populace. Better throw in what must be a horrible school system as well.

limboinjapan said: There have been countless confrontations in front of schools, government building and so on over the past years and every time it is this small vocal group that then insights other to cause more trouble.

Are you playing with a stacked deck? The only such problems I ever read about occurred after schools and government buildings starting banning the things! And while the government buildings I can understand the ban, in the schools, I cannot, except to understand it as intolerance, xenophobia, or the error of calling it religious clothing. Because if its religious clothing then so is that which covers the genitals. That is right out of Genesis about Adam and Eve with fig leaves. Veils are traditional, worn for religious purpose, same as a Muslim man's beard.

Several year ago the French government in an attempt to ease tensions broke from tradition and funded an Islamic friendship centre in Marseille only to have it usurped by fundamentalist who promptly barded any women from the certre that did not cover up as they demanded, This is what France has had to contend with.

What a complete bummer! Maybe they should have withdrawn funding? Would that be so hard?

MistWizard: 1-)"The only such problems I ever read about occurred after schools and government buildings starting banning the things!" & 2-)"What a complete bummer! Maybe they should have withdrawn funding? Would that be so hard?"

1-) You again should check your information. The ban on religious symbols and clothing have been in effect since at least the 1950's and were adhered to by all until this group started to refuse to follow the rules and made a very big stink about it Jewish boys removed their kippahs (wamaka) before entering public schools for years and there were no problems.

2-) And yes they did remove funding and requested that they vacate the government owned building and that only lead to more screaming of "intolerance" by these groups and their sympathizer.

France ( and I venture other places in the future ) were/are in a no win situation, if they try enforcing previously existing laws that apply to everyone else they will have protest and accusations or religious interference and intolerance. If they try to do things like cultural centres and promote understanding then the hardliners move in and try using this to promote their agenda, If they pass this new law to end everything they are accused of intolerance and xenophobia.

FYI I had a French female friend in the 1980's that was told to remove a Crucifix at school in France ( she was not wearing it for religious reasons but because this was the time of Madona and all the girls dressed that way) but it still had to go.

France is making a statement that it expects people who desire to live there not to engage in extreme behaviour that clashes with French values. In other words, even if Muslims (or others) choose not to assimilate, at least they should not stand out. A full veil signals a rejection of encounters with others. That's about as rude as it gets. If such a female addressed me on the street for directions (for example), why should I acknowledge her existence or show her courtesy in return? To those who insist on their right to exhibit this kind of feudalistic and backward behaviour: do it to your heart's content in your own country, but not when you come to mine.

Good, when you choose to move to another country you need to asimilate into the society. Wearing a burka is not compatible with modern French society.

I cringe when it comes to banning articles of traditional clothing, but I can't see that I disagree with France's point of view. Put it this way, sunbathing in bikinis is popular and the norm on many beaches in the US, but if you went to a beach an in Islamic country and did the same, you would be insane and likely killed. There is a degree of assimilation without losing total regard to ethnic and religious custom. Wear a headscarf that modestly covers the hair and neck. Sometimes you have to bend a little when you decide to move to another life in another culture and enjoy the benefits of your adopted country.

Do we have go from less than 2,000 women and tie this bill to all Muslim immigrants to France? Is it possible for you to lay your anti-Muslim sentiments aside for just one thread? Because man, burquas and veils are the least of your worries even within the scope of your irrational intolerant ideas.

You think I care about Muslim immigrants? You would be incorrect. I have no problem at all with most Muslims. The issue I have, is with people who have no interest in fitting into society. Thats what this is about. It wouldn't matter to me if they were Jews, Christians, Buddhists, or Martians. These people must either fit into the society of their host country, or find a country that more closely aligns with their way of life. The country should not have to conform to them.

I'm sure this debate will come to the US soon enough. It is illegal in the US to wear masks in public in some states (VA and West VA come to mind). So it begs the question that if a Muslim woman wearing a full bur qua goes out in public, is it illegal? I'm talking one of those Ninja type things (for lack of a better term). Is that considered a mask, and if so would they be ticketed in a state where it is illegal to wear masks, or do we make exceptions for religious/cultural considerations - and where do you draw the line? If I'm a snake handler can I bring a snake on the subway with me?

Molenir: The issue I have, is with people who have no interest in fitting into society.

This is on the level of Muslim men wearing beards when it falls out of fashion in the rest of society. Or not allowing turbans. Or the traditional robes of many cultures. Its all VERY subjective of what fits and what doesn't. But what actually caused a problem is very much less subjective which is why I make it the determining factor.

Anyway, society changes. Immigrants bringing new ideas is one of the ways it does. And sometimes they don't "fit in" right away. Maybe you prefer a static society stuck in the past? Maybe you think there need not be any Chinatowns? So much for vive la difference, eh?

Some women say they wear the veil to avoid sexual harrassment and advances from men. I bet it works. But you advocate having this extreme minority banned from the protection. And you have bigger fish to fry in the scope of this idea of yours too. (but I know from previous threads that you are mostly just anti-muslim, so stop trying to bull-crap me).

limboinjapan said: You again should check your information.

You, again, should provide some. I am not here to make your case for you.

Jewish boys removed their kippahs (wamaka) before entering public schools for years and there were no problems.

A tiny skull cap the size of a bald spot? Why would there be a problem? How does a man's crown compare with a woman's face? You may as well compare a ban on socks with a ban on bras! Did you even read my fig leaf point?

I don't agree with the religious symbol ban, but I can let that go. But a veil is not a religious symbol. Designating religious clothing is a can of worms. Its not worth opening and it will hit certain people harder than others and this is known. And I say again that veils are traditional clothing worn for religious reasons, just like Christians wear pants to cover their privates.

a veil is not a religious symbol

It is to people like Kenza Drider.

Some women say they wear the veil to avoid sexual harrassment and advances from men. I bet it works. But you advocate having this extreme minority banned from the protection. And you have bigger fish to fry in the scope of this idea of yours too. (but I know from previous threads that you are mostly just anti-muslim, so stop trying to bull-crap me).

No, I'm saying lose the veil. Dress like every single other woman out there. You don't have to wear tight mini skirts, you don't have to wear form fitting clothing, but covering up completely from head to toe, is not fitting in. There are plenty of clothes out there designed to hide a womans figure. Clothes that are designed for modesty. The girls could wear that, and fit in fine. And thats what this is all about. Creating Ghettos.

Your comment about my being anti-muslim is of course nonsense. Being opposed to burkhas, and being opposed to building a mosque at ground zero, suddenly makes me anti-muslim. But I've come to expect those kinds of cracks from you. You're only about tolerance, if its for people you agree with, otherwise everyone is a racist, a hater, or a phobe of some sort.

And I say again that veils are traditional clothing worn for religious reasons, just like Christians wear pants to cover their privates.

Is that why Christians wear pants. Out of curiosity then, why do all the non-Christians wear em then?

And I say again that veils are traditional clothing worn for religious reasons, just like Christians wear pants to cover their privates.

Hey that's pretty amusing. But stop there? Why not try and tell yourself that people wear shoes not because it is cleaner, safer and more comfortable than going barefoot but because it is first and foremost a religious thing.

Yeah! People, like, don't want their dirty feet to soil God's green earth so they like, invented shoes. Reduces guilt. Some people, mostly women young and fit enough to do so, wear shoes of an elevated height, for to show their piety, their compliance with this near universal religious feeling, and of course to display their modesty.

MistWizard: "A tiny skull cap the size of a bald spot? Why would there be a problem? How does a man's crown compare with a woman's face? You may as well compare a ban on socks with a ban on bras! Did you even read my fig leaf point?" & 2-) " just like Christians wear pants to cover their privates." & 3-) "Or not allowing turbans" 4-) "But a veil is not a religious symbol"

1-) Do I sense a little anti-Jewish here or Just ignorance? The Kippa (wamaka) in theory for Jewish men by some groups MUST be worn all the time and by most groups MUST be worn during certain religious periods.

2-) Find me one place where it is written or even one sane Christian group that says pant are a must, Pants became part of many cultures way way after the Christian era noted by the fact the most monks and preist were wearing habits well into the 20 th century. FYI Pants did not become common until the 19th century and if you wish to argue that breeches and sailor work trousers are pants then that would still only bring us back as far as the 16th at the most.

3-) get your religions strait Muslims do not wear turbans Sikhs do and Turbans for Sikhs are not a religious symbol or necessary they are just the most practical way of keeping their hair (that they do not cut), Sikh boys in France do not wear turban but wear hair nets if in public school in order to keep their hair tied up.

4-) If the veil is not a religious symbol then there should be no problem removing it in schools and public places in accordance to the laws as I have written before, I or even you would not be allowed to run around with or face fully covered in school, driving a car, in government facilities and so on, so why should they be exempt?

Now to put things in perspective.

I live in Japan and in my family it is tradition that at a certain age all male member get a form of Tattoo marking a change of status within our clan and during this period we also grow a braid, my son is reaching that age and wishes to do the same as his cousin back home and myself, BUT the Japanese school system will not allow it and therefore this part of my family tradition must be postponed until he is out of Japanese public Junior and even High school, those are the realities of living in a place that has different values and customs.

@MistWizard:

Here is an example of how horribly intolerant the French are and how misunderstood and victimized the Muslims are:

In Normandy France during public festivals it was TRADITION for decades if not centuries to serve (free) Normandy style French pea soup which contains pork, the Jewish population understood this was tradition and avoided eating it.

But Several years back Muslim groups complained that this was unfair and challenged it it court, as the French laws state "equality" it was deemed by the courts as unfair, so now the Norman TRADITION is BAND.

Is this what you call being tolerant and not affecting the rest of the population?

Why is it OK for the Muslim population in France to stop traditional French culture?

The real facts are that it has been a one way street up to now where the Muslim groups have demanded that France change its cultural ways but accept their Muslim ways.

This is just one such incident but there have been many more.

limboinjapan said: Is this what you call being tolerant and not affecting the rest of the population?

No, but thank you so much for dragging that strawman out of left field. Could we just talk about headscarves? Were there problems with headscarves first, or were the bans first? And do you have something to tell us about how bad those countless protests were or no? Cause your strawman is poor CYA.

@MistWizard:

It was you and the others that brought up France being intolerant and xenophobic, all I did was point out what has really been going on, you can also look up Pork soup banned, you might not find it to your liking.

I noticed that you ignored my reply to your Christian pants comments among others, no leg to stand on? (pun intended)

1-) Do I sense a little anti-Jewish here or Just ignorance? The Kippa (wamaka) in theory for Jewish men by some groups MUST be worn

False. The head must be covered. A baseball cap will do it. It need not be a tiny skullcap. The tiny skullcap is not specified. It too is TRADITIONAL and worn for religious reasons. Whether Jews or Muslims they are being punished for being creative with their religious requirements. And I pooh-poohed the kippah because it has no real world effect except to identify a Jew. A veil though. Men are as attracted to faces as they are to breasts and hips. I can totally understand why a woman would want to avoid that attraction. Its beyond a simple religious reason. But whether kippah or veil, I don't see the problem. The problem is with the people who see it and make an issue.

2) the point was not pants, obviously. It was covering the genitals.

3) get your facts straight. I mentioned turbans as I mentioned kippah and bras. These things are traditional and not necessarily religious.

I or even you would not be allowed to run around with or face fully covered in school, driving a car, in government facilities and so on, so why should they be exempt?

The only one I took issue with was schools. Try to keep up. The reason is because the veil is on the level of traditional and religious hair styles and beards. They are NOT religious symbols. They are there for relgious REASONS. Why should a Jew be allowed to wear a ballcap to cover his head, but not a kippah? Why should a woman be allowed to wear a SARS mask but not a veil? Discrimination or stupidity is why. All else is CYA for those and as such, bullcrap.

As for you son, you should petition those bullcrap rules. Form over content is not the way to go.

limboinjapan said: It was you and the others that brought up France being intolerant and xenophobic,

All of France? No. This decision shows intolerance within France. Trying to accuse all of France of being intolerant or not would be an exercise in stupidity and its not for me. Fact is some in France are intolerant, and those ones seem to be making their voices heard more. But that does not make the tolerant in France intolerant. Just quieter and with less power.

I noticed that you ignored my reply to your Christian pants comments among others, no leg to stand on?

And I noticed that you lack patience.

MistWizard: "As for you son, you should petition those bullcrap rules. Form over content is not the way to go."

Yes and have all the Japanophile and the rest of Japan say rightfully this time "if you don's like it our way you can always leave, this is Japan and we do things, the Japanese way!"

MistWizard: 1-)" Why should a Jew be allowed to wear a ballcap to cover his head, but not a kippah?" & 2-)" the point was not pants, obviously. It was covering the genitals."

1-) First school regulations do not allow any "hats" wile in school so that means not Kippah, cap, etc... and just to let you know, no the Kippah is not just a head covering and any thing will do, that is why many Jews wear the Kippah even under their hats, ( I guess you don't know many Jews.)

2-) So are you saying that covering our genitals is due to Christians? That is interesting I guess prior to Christianity everyone ran around naked.

Burkas and face veils were around prior to Islam and were a particular habit or custom of some tribes of the Arab peninsula they have no religious meaning and are a local custom that is being pushed down the throats of many Muslims in countries that have never practiced that custom.

When some one move to a new place or country they must agree to follow that places rules some of their old customs can be continued but others must be left behind because they do not fit into the rules and or customs of their new home that has been the way since time began.

I come from a country of basically immigrants and on my mother's side they are the original people and they have dropped many customs because they are just no long appropriate in modern society, on my father's side many customs had to be dropped because they clashed with the norms of the society and sometimes even the health regulations and the law.

That is how the world is they brought with them new ideas and customs but some things were just not acceptable and they had to let them go.

**The French have succeeded in making a tiny little negligible minority women reveal (cover less) more of the physique Let us go a step forward. The same majority French women, assuming that, one day, start a successful campaign demanding that they want freedom to reveal much wider cleavage of their breasts, cleavage of upper buttocks and upper thighs thus bringing an obligatory law making the women cover less and less. The French Govt agrees to conduct a referendum whether such a law has to be passed ( after all France is a democracy and so why not respect the wishes of the majority in a democracy) enforcing all women to dress as they women liberation movement demands on greater exposure of their bodies.

The referendum goes ahead and 85% of the population vote for the law on greater exposure. In fact more men cast their yes vote, their sexually motivated reason being obvious. And French citizens ( the 15% NO VOTERS, the minority belonging to alien cultures) oppose this law and feel that it infringes on their personal rights on what they wish to cover and how much they wish to reveal . What will be the decision of the French Parliament? Will the Parliament and Judiciary force this law on all French women including the alien minority to reveal by law a wider cleavage of their breasts, buttocks and upper thighs. Will the French ban Muslim minority women covering their chest cleavage, upper buttocks, upper thighs, their bellybuttons and so on? Hypocrisy and wanton double standard due to clash of civilization and racial superiority--that is what it amounts to **

*“I won’t go out. I’ll send people to shop for me. I’ll stay home, very simply,” said Oum Al Khyr, who wears a “niqab” that hides all but the eyes.

“I’ll spend my time praying,” said the single woman “over age 45” who lives in Montreuil on Paris’ eastern edge. “I’ll exclude myself from society when I wanted to live in it.” The comments of these women are very, very SCARY!! I can not believe how BRAINWASHED they must be! Stay home and pray?? Yeah right! These women must be so scared of the other male Muslims there in France and around the world that they feel they must stay indoors rather than show their FACE?? Showing a woman's face is the same as walking around NAKED??? What a bunch of BS! I think the French are trying very hard to make their multicultural country, a democracy stay with the times, but as we know we have countries like Saudi that want to keep their people living back in the stone ages.

The regural French feel very, very threatened by too many Muslims in their country, so this is just a stop-gap measure.

@kodimirpal,

Nice very nice.

No one is telling these women that they cannot dress modestly, what the are saying is "this is France and in France you cannot walk around with your face covered" if they wish to cover their heads with a scarf and wear a long baggy dress they can do so but we must be able to see your face just like everyone else.

Why is that such a hard concept for people to get?

But taking a page from your book here is another scenario:

The Muslim population of France grows to the point where is certain prefecture they now become the Majority by far and decide to implement Sharia law in those prefectures on all outlawing things like a woman and a man that are not related or married can not travel in the same car or on the same motorbike and if caught doing this they will have their vehicle seized and be find or another punishment.

Sounds crazy well that is precisely what has happened in Nigeria (now 50% Muslim 50% non-Muslim ) in the Muslim dominated zones of that country.

Which scenario sound more possible yours or mine?

limboinjapan said: 1-) First school regulations do not allow any "hats" wile in school so that means not Kippah, cap, etc.

As far as I know the kippah was ok until what, 2004? I don't know about hats in schools in France. Oh well. I guess you can still have wigs over your kippah! And I wonder what other headgear for girls is going to be acceptable? A bandana is OK, just so long as you aren't Muslim? Won't that be fun?

Next in line will be Jewish braids and circumcision, because we would not want to see religious symbols in the shower room.

And another thing: The French WILL NOT become more tolerant for lack of exposure to these things. In fact, they will become LESS tolerant.

When some one move to a new place or country they must agree to follow that places rules

But that conflicts with the promise of religious freedom. For some, these things are not options, but rather religious duties, and they are being forced to shirk them despite the things not actually causing a problem.

MistWizard: " I don't know about hats in schools in France. Oh well. I guess you can still have wigs over your kippah!"

Oh you are desperate and grasping at straws here aren't you!

I guess you have no idea about French schools and dress codes so forget it, it's just to much trouble to write, look it up yourself, it would help if you can read French.

Second the no religious symbols in French schools has been in place since the 1950s look that up to, and what happened during WW2 is one reason (look it up yourself) and also to circumvent the power of the Catholic church at the time ( priest where bard from wearing there Habit in Schools and other public places ) (again look it up yourself).

MistWizard: "But that conflicts with the promise of religious freedom. For some, these things are not options, but rather religious duties, and they are being forced to shirk them despite the things not actually causing a problem"

In my home country as well as France and many other places Orthodox Jews (large population in my home city) cannot conform to the norms of the local population due to their belief and that goes for school regulation.

So they made their own schools (government approved and certified) on the occasion you hear them make some unacceptable request (like road closures in their areas on Saturday or that the public pool near their homes erect high fences so you can't see the people in bathing suits) and they are usually told no and that's the end of it.

They understand ( I know personally because I worked for many year with them) that they live in a secular society and that their way are not ours so they must adapt and accept some things they are not happy with.

Why can these people not do the same? Why must everyone else change to suit them?

I also think many here confuse Anglo/American version of individual rights and those of other countries.

The French view or freedom and individual rights are different the those of the Anglo/USA view, in their view an individual's rights are paramount up to the point were what the individual does is not viewed as good for the whole of the group this has always been and always will be the French view of things.

Not that different from Japan where it is viewed that it is better that one person be inconvenienced by the action of the many as oppose to the many being inconvenienced by the actions of one.

Many here have quoted the French,Liberté, égalité, French for "Liberty, equality, what most have left out is: fraternité, fraternity some translate it as brotherhood but what it really means is "the Group as one whole".

limboinjapan　said: Why must everyone else change to suit them?

No one is being asked to change with the masks and headscarves but the wearers!!! Why must they change to please everybody else???

MistWizard: "Why must they change to please everybody else???"

Because those are the rules in France!

Just like my taking my shoes of when I have to go into my children's schools, I am not comfortable I cannot fit it the tiny slippers and my socks get all dirty BUT THOSE ARE THE RULES in Japan.

Plain and simple!

limbo, you cannot compare a religious requirement that has no real effect on none but the requiree with a custom done for a practical purpose!

You take your shoes off to prevent wear and tear on the floor and also to keep the floor clean. That is to the benefit of all.

Removing the veil or headscarf does not benefit society except to alay some petty emotion in some self-righteous individuals.

Besides, with the shoes, EVERYONE is inconvenienced for a greater benefit. With the headscarves etc. society inconveniences an unlucky few with no greater benefit. In fact its a detriment. If the French don't grow up with these things around, they will never learn tolerance for them.

MistWizard:

" Removing the veil or headscarf does not benefit society except to alay some petty emotion in some self-righteous individuals. "

Would you say the same if you are talking about white hoods? For better or worse, we live in world of symbols, and the tenting women is a powerful symbol of extreme fundamentalist islam.

kodimirpal:

" Will the French ban Muslim minority women covering their chest cleavage, upper buttocks, upper thighs, their bellybuttons and so on? Hypocrisy and wanton double standard due to clash of civilization and racial superiority--that is what it amounts to * "

Don´t be ridiculous. They are only talking about faces. And only the most radical islamists are not able to see the difference between a face and a sexual organ.