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Furor grows over Arizona's new immigration law

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I'm all for this law. Can't just keep doing nothing.

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But being white,you know you won't be stopped either. <Waiting for now obligatory delete>

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"But being white,you know you won't be stopped either." In Arizona, probably not. But when immigration authorities sweep restaurants in Honolulu or New York "whites" get pegged.

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Any LEGAL immigrant, ie; documented immigrant will have NOTHING to fear from this law. Note how the liberals and hispanic organizations fail to distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants. It is their position and behavior that is racist, not the State of Arizona wjich is trying to protect all of it's residents which include legal immigrants. Oh and I really think Obama has his whatsiz know up his whatever on this one. What did he suddenly forget he's the President of the United States and thinks he's civil rights activist?

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cracaphat at 08:48 AM JST - 27th April But being white,you know you won't be stopped either.

Bet you could be white and standing in the group looking for a day job and still get checked.

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Yep, despite how they like to go around referring to anyone who disagrees with their pov as haters, and threatening violence, you'll note its those opposed to this legislation that are committing acts of violence and intimidation, lashing out exposing their hatred.

But being white,you know you won't be stopped either.

So dumb. So stupid. This is going to be required for all police to ask, anyone who is stopped. ANYONE! I know its hard to clue in on this, but its not about racial profiling, its not about race at all, despite what the haters want you to believe. Its about being in the country and more particularly the state, illegally. If you came in the front door, you've got nothing to worry about. If you tried sneaking in the back door, you'll pay for it in Arizona, if the law ever makes it into force.

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60 percent of Americans outside of Arizona support what the people there are doing in response to the flood of illegal aliens. Only 30 percent are with Obama and the radicals and grievance pimps like Sharpton.

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OssanAmerica at 08:57 AM JST - 27th April. Any LEGAL immigrant, ie; documented immigrant will have NOTHING to fear from this law.

Nothing to fear? Arizona will have problem of racial profiling. The concerns will intensify after incident of same U.S. citizen who is stopped numerous times for no other reason. There will be some level of intentional or unintentional intimidation on the part of the police even if you provide an identification card. What if this U.S. citizen that is of Mexican ancestory does not have ID card? Take him to Jail? Police cannot tell the difference.

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I read above that "Police cannot tell the difference." How does one know this? I suspect the writer believes every cop in Arizona, if not America, is "white," lives sheltered in the suburbs, and votes Republican. But that is not the real picture.

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"...immigrants unable to produce documents showing they are allowed to be in the U.S. could be arrested, jailed for up to six months and fined $2,500".

OK, so how do they know who is an immigrant, if a person doesn't happen to be carrying their papers?

Anyone remember a young woman being arrested in Nishi-Kawaguchi for not having her papers, a couple of years back? Luckily her mother eventually found her in jail. Turned out she was an autistic Japanese and not an immigrant, legal or otherwise.

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What if this U.S. citizen that is of Mexican ancestory does not have ID card? Take him to Jail?

Yup! Same as they would any American without an ID card, as it is against the law of the land.

Molenir, You are exactly right. The issue is not about race.

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any American without an ID card, as it is against the law of the land

Americans are required by law to carry ID with them at all times? Really? What happened to the Land of the Free?

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...and are you suppose to carry your ID when out in the gulf surfing or swimming?

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While it's generally a good idea to carry ID with you in America, I'm pretty sure it's not the law, unless driving or trying to buy something with an age restriction. And even in that case you don't necessarily get arrested. If the cops are feeling nice they'll look you up to make sure you've got a license and tell you to remember it next time. And if you're trying to buy beer, you just won't get your beer.

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Want the answer to the question "What happened to the Land of the Free?"

Read the article: "Arizona is home to an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants"

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Ossan: "Note how the liberals and hispanic organizations fail to distinguish between illegal and legal immigrants."

wow... using 'hispanic organizations' in the same pejorative sense you use 'liberal', and then you go on to call THEM racist?? Dude, this law will do PLENTY of harm, and it will increase racial profiling to levels beyond bush's Patriot Act at the airports. It's disgusting, and that's why it's rightfully going to be challenged. The legislation is indeed racist as such, my friend.

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To read attempted criticism like this "wow... using 'hispanic organizations' in the same pejorative sense you use 'liberal', and then you go on to call THEM racist??" is to wonder how some can be so clueless about a subject that gets them so worked up. It is the most powerful organizations "fighting" for the illegal immigrants who are racist.

The dominant Hispanic student organization in the region - - "MEChA" -- has as its guiding principle Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada ("For the Race, everything, outside the Race, nothing").

"MEChA" (which stands for Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán or "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlán") has a charter that explicitly calls for the overthrow of the United States government and its replacement with a racially pure "master race" ("we are Aztlán").

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"...and are you suppose to carry your ID when out in the gulf surfing or swimming?"

Perhaps they need to come up with a tatoo system ...

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Until they built a border fence that stops these folks, it isn't going to stop. But Arizona has their right and now law to attempt to rid their state of illegal aliens.

Everybody whines about the Liberal Democrats wanting to give amnesty, etc. The last time I saw amnesty given to illegals was the GOP god, Ronald Reagan. < :-)

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if you are a legal immigrant, being stopped and asked to show id is an inconvenience but it protects you against illegal immigrants taking your job cause they will work cheaper. if you are illegal, why should you be entitled to any protection from the law?

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Anyone remember a young woman being arrested in Nishi-Kawaguchi for not having her papers, a couple of years back? Luckily her mother eventually found her in jail. Turned out she was an autistic Japanese and not an immigrant, legal or otherwise.

There were a couple of similar cases in Australia as well. The fact of the matter is that having this law on the books and actually implementing it are two different issues. While I agree that the US (as with all countries) has a right to take a firm stand against illegal immigrants, I think it is just a matter of time before something goes wrong and they either jail a US citizen, or worse, deport some US citizen to climes south of the border.

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I knew a white, British nanny who didn't produce her ID when the police stopped her on a beach in America late at night. She didn't produce an ID and she was arrested. The only place in America where you don't need to produce an ID is at the ballot box.

This is a good law. Arizona is economically stressed and trying to raise its sales tax another 1%. One reason for their problems is they have 460,000 illegals sucking on social services. They also cause more than their fair share of trouble, especially the human smugglers and the drug smugglers. Once this law goes into effect, the illegals will move to California and people like the San Francisco City Attorney can lobby to have his state's sales tax raised to 10% to cover them.

At the end of the day, it is not fair to those who become U.S. citizens legally -jump through all the hoops, take the tests, pay the costs- for one group -Mexicans- to be shown special treatment and given defacto citizenship by not enforcing immigration laws.

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This is just another round of shit stirring. Citizens may refuse an officers unreasonable demand for proof of citizenship. Fourth amendments cool like that. All a person has to do is claim they're a citizen.

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used refried beans to smear swastikas on the state Capitol,

Oh no!! Nazi imagery in the protests! Are the left-wing going to demand their immediate imprisonment like they do with random nutcases who infiltrate the Tea Party?

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What a bunch of rabid, unhinged haters: "opponents used refried beans to smear swastikas on the state Capitol, civil rights leaders demanded a boycott of the state." Imagine if Tea Party participants resorted to such tactics...

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"The police who are now forced to stop and roust latinos or others do not know who is legal or illegal."

How much sillier and excitable can Democrats get?

" The law requires police to check with federal authorities on a person's immigration status, if officers have stopped that person for some legitimate reason and come to suspect that he or she might be in the U.S. illegally. The heart of the law is this provision: "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency…where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person…"

"...That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."

Source:http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Byron-York/A-carefully-crafted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html

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America should turn Mexico into the 52nd state. End of the problem.

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Mexico should get its house in order. End of problem.

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refried beans

Wa wa waaaaa... what a bunch of babies. If you are a legal immigrant, you got nothin to worry, but illegal is illegal. If you dont like the law, get the hell out and take your beans!

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America should turn Mexico into the 52nd state. End of the problem.

And that'll make Carlos Slim the richest main in the US. Make sense, really...

As for this AZ law, opponents are just overreacting from what they've been hearing from the media. The official name of this new immigration enforcement law should be marked "As seen on TV" to better reflect the current and emerging bias.

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Mods - Thank you for correcting the name of the article. Though not properly reflecting that its about illegal immigration and not just immigration, its a step up from being a "law against immigrants"

Back on topic now. As others have said, this is not, and never has been about race or for that matter, immigration. Its about illegal immigration. People who shortcut the immigration process. Thats why in reality so many Hispanics support this legislation. Because they came here legally. They are descended from legal residents, and those who jump the fence to come here illegally are taking away jobs from all of us.

Others have posted the statistics on crime, and welfare, I won't bother. Besides I personally think some of the statistics are suspect. However there can be no doubt, based on the size of the prison population that are illegals, just how large the problem is. How much it cost not only the citizens, but the legal immigrants as well. Those who regrettably get tarred with the same brush as those who broke the law to this country.

We don't mind people coming to the US. America was born via immigration. Almost all Americans support it, so long as its done in a controlled fashion. We just want those who broke the law to get here, to go back home, and properly stand in line in order to come to the country we all love.

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From an independent news source: "Three people were arrested during the immigration rally at the state capitol Friday afternoon.

"Two were arrested after they were seen throwing water bottles at police, according to a news release from the Arizona Department of Public Safety, the state police agency.

"A third suspect was arrested for stealing an ice cream cart from an ice cream vendor at the event. A fourth suspect was arrested for disorderly conduct after forcing his way past a police line."

[Source: http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=12370355 ]

And yet the state media, like NY Times, reports that these protests are "mostly peaceful." If cops had been attacked at Tea Party rallies it would be front page news...

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"Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri-Kansas City law professor who helped write the Arizona legislation, said . . . the state law is only prohibiting conduct already illegal under federal law."

Precisely. Most, if not all of the legalese in this new law are already codified in federal immigration law. So why bother?

Basically, the biggest thing this law does is deputized local police to act as immigration officials. I suspect this is the area where opponents will attack the legislation, namely in that it gives federal powers to local authorities.

As if Arizona police don't already have enough on their plates, now they have to act as immigration police as well? Janet Napolitano is correct. This law is not only going to piss off a lot of legitimate American citizens, but it's also going to hurt the general populace in terms of decreased service from police bodies.

I agree that something most definitely needs to be done about the illegal immigration problem plaguing the American Southwest. Molenir stated it well in that Americans don't mind people coming to the US, since we really are a nation of immigrants. But the immigration has to be regulated somehow. Willy-nilly influxes across a long border does little to help anyone, including illegal immigrants who relegate themselves to second-class citizenship by the very virtue of having to sneak around and stay beneath the radar of authorities. However, I just don't think this ham-fisted legislation is the best way to effect change.

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Heck, why doesn't Arizona just annex Mexixo as a state territory and be done with it?

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The measure ... would make it a crime under state law to be in the U.S. illegally.

Police going after criminals. How could anybody ever support such an unconstitutional idea?

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All kidding aside, are Americans legally required to show ID whenever asked? Are they therefore legally obliged to be carrying ID at all times?

In Japan, citizen's are NOT required to carry ID. Just the non-citizens.

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All kidding aside, are Americans legally required to show ID whenever asked?

Yes.

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Just like when Arizona refused Martin Luther King Day as a national holiday the rest of the Union will keep 'em into the kerb and make them do what's right.

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All kidding aside, are Americans legally required to show ID whenever asked? Are they therefore legally obliged to be carrying ID at all times?

Actually, everyone is required to identify themselves to police if asked. That is the law. I personally disagree with it, but its the law. So you could say technically, you are required to have some form of ID. But simply answering the questions a cop may ask, generally suffices if you don't.

More racist policies from the republicans . . .being latino and a republican is like a black joining the KKK.

Thank you for your typical racist, nonsensical response. Its what I've come to expect. Whats amusing is you completely ignore the fact that most Hispanics actually support this legislation. They're actually more likely to vote Republican because of it.

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zurc, I don't know if you think you are talking for us, but let me tell you as an Hispanic American, I do not support what has come over the border in recent years. If the Obama admin wants to cave into the Mexican gov claims while the have one of the worse immigration records, he's lost my vote. If he wants to side with illegal immigrants over those of us whose parents came to the US, worked hard and have become a model for all minorities - then he's lost a lot.

1/3 of the police in Arizona are Hispanic. While the crime in Arizona is mostly due to thugs coming over the border, they have hurt legal Hispanics most. If the police pull me over because I'm brown, in all honestly, I blame the idiots have have not only NOT appriciated what they got in the US, but have actually crapped on it. And I also blame the fed for not doing their job in not taking care of the border.

I am sure this law won't stand up but I do hope its a wake up and while you are at, don't try to tell me Obama or the white dems really care about us. They want the votes. Spend some time in a real hard working hispanic community, especially Puerto Rican or Cuban - again model minorities if not the most, and you'll be surprised how far off your views are. Many of us are very conservative, support gun ownership, believe in state's rights.

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Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

*Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

*Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

*Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

Bravo, Arizona. You are doing what the federal government refuses to do: Making America safe from invasion. It's time other states follow The Grand Canyon State's lead and pass simular laws to protect all of our southern or northern borders.

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More racist policies from the republicans

Pure nonsense, zee. nothing in Arizona's new law specifies any race or creed. It simply says that a police officer will check ID and if it shows they're illegal they will uphold federal immigration laws.

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"illegal immigrants"

Amazing how, even with the worst recession since the Great Depression, these illegal immigrants continue to move to the U.S.

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RomeoRamenII at 12:39 AM JST - 28th April. Pure nonsense, zee. nothing in Arizona's new law specifies any race or creed. It simply says that a police officer will check ID and if it shows they're illegal they will uphold federal immigration laws.

The Arizona legislation makes not having immigration documents a misdemeanor. It doesn't leave the police any discretion, requiring that they demand documentation from anyone they suspect is in Arizona illegally. That pretty much means that every Latino in the state will need to keep their papers with them 24/7. Even if you are a U.S. citizen or legal in the states, you can be arrested for racial profiling by not carry ID. Also, The Arizona law does not affect those businesses that hire illegal immigrants.

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sfjp330 at 09:17 AM JST - 27th April Nothing to fear? Arizona will have problem of racial profiling. The >concerns will intensify after incident of same U.S. citizen who is >stopped numerous times for no other reason.

Law Enforcement Officers don't have the time to repeatedy stop a given individual for no reason. Under this law people will be stopped for the same reasons they were stopped before, the only difference being that the immigration status will be checked as well.

There will be some level of intentional or unintentional intimidation on >the part of the police even if you provide an identification card.

If you produce an ID card why should there be any intimidation? Doesn't that occuir if you DON'T produce an ID card?

What if this U.S. citizen that is of Mexican ancestory does not have ID >card? Take him to Jail? Police cannot tell the difference.

Anyone here in the US after 911 who does not carry some form of ID on them is a moron. Or a minor.

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smithinjapan at 11:02 AM JST - 27th April wow... using 'hispanic organizations' in the same pejorative sense you >use 'liberal', and then you go on to call THEM racist??

Sure. What else would you call the act of deliberately blurring the line between LEGAL and ILLEGAL aliens on the grounds that they are racialy the same?

Dude, this law will do PLENTY of harm, and it will increase racial >profiling to levels beyond bush's Patriot Act at the airports. It's >disgusting, and that's why it's rightfully going to be challenged.

Yea it'll do somne terrible harm...like reducing illegal immigration, border crossings, the preying upon these illegals by coyotes, the drug flow and gang crimes that come with these illegals, reducing the workload on US Immigration by having local law enforecement establish status in advance, etc etc.

The legislation is indeed racist as such, my friend.

And you have no idea what you are talking about as usual my friend.

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cleo at 10:32 AM JST - 27th April any American without an ID card, as it is against the law of the land Americans are required by law to carry ID with them at all times? >Really? What happened to the Land of the Free?

That went out with the 911 terrorist attacks. People who take the law into their own hands and cause harm to innocent bystanders destroys the freedom we cherish. I thought you were a Brit cleo, you ought to be used to it the IRA and all over the years.

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The people that are whining about all of this are the illegals who are strongarming their legal latino brothers into voting against the politicians who support this new law. What is wrong with law enforcement officials enforcing the law? If a law is passed and it says that you need to show identification and that identification shows you are a legal resident in the United States, your fine. I think that the USA should go to a national identification card. If you combined social security cards, drivers licenses, resident alien cards, passports etceteras there would be a lot less bureaucracy (don't need all those government agencies just one to manage the information)and things would go a lot smoother for everyone.

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Well as I have no problem with a Japanese cop asking to see my gaijin card because I am here legally no one should have a problem with an American cop asking to see their id. If they obviously are not a native English speaking person with an American accent then they would be suspect of being a foreigner who should have either a passport or some other identification documentation to prove they are in the USA legally. Producing such documentation would send them on their way with a happy cop and happy foreigner. Mind you this may let the illegal Canadians in the US have too much freedom but this point is moot due to the extreme imbalance between the Canada and Mexico populations and the indirectly proportional amount of illegals from those countries. So in the logic of the laws opponents, if I have a problem with ants I technically would be profiling if I bought ant-killer but to be 'fair' I should opt for 'bug killer'. I mean I wouldn't want to profile. It could be a major weakness of mine. Imagine that!! me a profiler!!

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OssanAmerica at 02:01 AM JST - 28th April. Yea it'll do somne terrible harm...like reducing illegal immigration, border crossings, the preying upon these illegals by coyotes, the drug flow and gang crimes that come with these illegals, reducing the workload on US Immigration by having local law enforecement establish status in advance, etc etc.

Osssan.. No one is denying the esxtend of Arizona problem. However, have you ever spend extended time or anytime in south of Tucson, in such places as Nogales, Rio Rico, Douglas or Green Valley? Or how much of economic impact of the Maquiladoras in places like Nogales in Sonora have in Arizona for the U.S. companies? Sounds like you just look from the outside and haven't the foggist idea of what is actually going on there.

The Arizona's appalling law shouldn't serve as the model. Real reform should go beyond efforts to crack down on illegal immigrants. It must balance jobs and security, create a way for undocumented workers aleady here to earn citizenship and include a temporary visa program for the farm workers. The worst aspect of the Arizona law is that it's widening the political division.

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OssanAmerica at 01:55 AM JST - 28th April. Law Enforcement Officers don't have the time to repeatedy stop a given individual for no reason. Under this law people will be stopped for the same reasons they were stopped before, the only difference being that the immigration status will be checked as well.

How do you know? You haven't spend anytime in Nogales, Arizona have you? You really don't the situation there. Why don't you talk to the locals and they will tell you your wrong.

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This too will prove to be another failure. As long as Arizona companies do not want to pay real wages and hire illegals to do their work, illegals will continue to be in the state. All this law does is drive up the prices for labor. Its like the drug war, billions wasted on fighting a drug war and drugs still stream into the country and drug lords get richer.

If the republicans had not torpedoed the immigration bill grandpa mccain and bush tried to get passed years ago this new nazi like law would not be needed. Republicans are their own worse enemies for sure.

As for latinos supporting this law, that is crazy. Its targeting you.

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sfjp330 at 04:42 AM JST - 28th April How do you know? You haven't spend anytime in Nogales, Arizona have you? >You really don't the situation there. Why don't you talk to the locals >and they will tell you your wrong.

How do YOU Know? Are you an illegal alien in Arizona? Post your name and address so I can have to arrested.

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sfjp330 at 04:39 AM JST - 28th April Osssan.. No one is denying the esxtend of Arizona problem.

Good then accept the solutuion. Because no otherv solutoin has been suggested much less implemented.

The Arizona's appalling law shouldn't serve as the model.

I'm hoping every state in the union that is tired of the fedral govt doing nothing about this follows suit.

Real reform should go beyond efforts to crack down on illegal >immigrants. It must balance jobs and security, create a way for >undocumented workers aleady here to earn citizenship and include a >temporary visa program for the farm workers. The worst aspect of the >Arizona law is that it's widening the political division.

What garbage. You have no regard for the many DOCUMENTED immigrants, many hispanic, who waited on endless INS lines, paid multiple fees, sat through interviews and tests, who attained LAWFUL US Residency? You feel that the boarder crossers should jus be "given" what all the others have worked so hard for?

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Hats off to Arizona.

This is what happens when the Federal (central) government does absolutely nothing for border states such as Arizona.

In a statement Friday, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said the state’s new law would probably hinder law enforcement in dealing with more serious crimes. Napolitano vetoed similar proposals when she was Arizona governor

Look at it this way Janet. You got the entire Arizona law enforcement doing the work for you without raising your department's budget.

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OssanAmerica at 05:12 AM JST - 28th April. What garbage. You have no regard for the many DOCUMENTED immigrants, many hispanic, who waited on endless INS lines, paid multiple fees, sat through interviews and tests, who attained LAWFUL US Residency? You feel that the boarder crossers should jus be "given" what all the others have worked so hard for?

The immigration issue in the U.S. is way beyond control nothing will change, regardless of the passage of law because there is no way to effectively enforce this problem. Problem in U.S. Politics makes it difficult and the Lawyers get involved and continue to clog up the legal system . Just because Arizona made this into a law, nothing will change. Tell me in two year if anything changed. Most likely, nothing has change.

California depends on illegal farm workers from Mexico for all of the agricultural work in Central California. Everybody know this. Let's say Govenment deports all illegal farm workers, do you think these large farmers can maintain same output with domestic legal workers and still stay in business?

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The potential for this to run dangerously awry is astronomical.

Good luck Arizona. I think you're going to need it.

Taka

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And how could it go awry? Please enlighten us to you divine knowledge that whatever a US state decides is bad.

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sfjp330 at 05:54 AM JST - 28th April The immigration issue in the U.S. is way beyond control

Unless someone, some party, acts to regain control.

nothing will change, regardless of the passage of law because there is >no way to effectively enforce this problem.

Sure there is, you just read the article didn't you? We ended up in this situation because Federal Immigrations Laws havent been, and aren't being enforced. Time to enforce them.

Problem in U.S. Politics makes it difficult and the Lawyers get involved >and continue to clog up the legal system .

Yes, along with liberals, hispanic organizations, lawyers that support illegal immigration for some inane reason, as well as those like yourself who feel that nothing can or should be done about it.

Just because Arizona made this into a law, nothing will change. Tell me >in two year if anything changed. Most likely, nothing has change.

If other states follow Arizona's lead there will be change. Even if this does not pass in Arizona, the vast majority of Americans who want to see and end to thois uncontrolled illedgal immigration will be happy to make this Obama's next big headache.

California depends on illegal farm workers from Mexico for all of the >agricultural work in Central California. Everybody know this. Let's say >Govenment deports all illegal farm workers, do you think these large >farmers can maintain same output with domestic legal workers and still >stay in business?

If they can't they need to get out of business. But there are tons of documented workers who can fill the need amd unlike the undocumented workers won't be at the mercy of their employers and have rights that all Americans (and legal immigrants) have. If your argument is that we should continue to allow uncontrolled illegal immigration for the sake of cheap farm hands, sorry but that's a priority problem. You know the burden on our social services and system the enormous numbers of illegals are creating for the rest of us.

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OssanAmerica at 05:12 AM JST - 28th April. What garbage. You have no regard for the many DOCUMENTED immigrants, many hispanic, who waited on endless INS lines, paid multiple fees, sat through interviews and tests, who attained LAWFUL US Residency? You feel that the boarder crossers should jus be "given" what all the others have worked so hard for?

The real reason for Arizona law has very little to do with immigration whether documented or not. The objective of new law is to provide additonal law enforcement a tool to stop and seach suspected gang members from Mexico that has infiltrated the major cities in Arizona. The law enforcement wants to get a handle and control this problem before the problem gets too big. This is why they are not going after any businesses. Don't you get it?

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"the Obama administration weighed a possible legal challenge"

Doesn't the Obama administration already have its hands full battling states' legal challenges to ObamaCare?

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The real reason for Arizona law has very little to do with immigration whether documented or not. The objective of new law is to provide additonal law enforcement a tool to stop and seach suspected gang members from Mexico that has infiltrated the major cities in Arizona. The law enforcement wants to get a handle and control this problem before the problem gets too big. This is why they are not going after any businesses. Don't you get it?

Er, actually no. That might help a bit, but its got nothing to do with the issue. The issue is about illegal immigration, and the burdens it incurs. Nothing about race, nothing about racial profiling, which any way you read the law is illegal. Though of course facts like these don't really matter to friends like Zurc who see everything through a racial prism.

See what most people fail to understand is, that by having all these illegals here, the wages of normal people are depressed. This is good for business, which is part of the reason why you have Republican Senators like McCain and Gramham supporting amnesty. However, if the pool of workers shrinks, then wages will correspondingly go up, and people who previously were unwilling to do the more menial jobs, will if being adequately compensated, be willing to do them. Of course as wages increase, so do costs, so everything balances out eventually...

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sfjp330 at 01:33 AM JST - 28th April

in Arizona ... That pretty much means that every Latino in the state will need to keep their papers with them 24/7.

A ridiculous shriek. You do realize that if you migrated into the U.S., legally you are required to carry documention stating so, i.e., green card, passport w/visa, at all times.

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Molenir at 08:43 AM JST - 28th April. The issue is about illegal immigration, and the burdens it incurs. Nothing about race, nothing about racial profiling, which any way you read the law is illegal. See what most people fail to understand is, that by having all these illegals here, the wages of normal people are depressed.

The bottom line is that Mexico has not taken care of it's drug gang problems and it's becoming a national defense issue for the southern border states. Arizona's governor made a speech regarding this new bill, stating that Arizona is scared and will no longer stand for living in fear of their southern neighbor's crime problem. The Arizona law enforcements are dealing with major problems of deadly drug and gang related problems. They need to get the handle on this before they lose control.

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You do realize that if you migrated into the U.S., legally you are required to carry documention stating so, i.e., green card, passport w/visa, at all times."

My mom's family did for years. No complaints. I carry my gaijin card with me at all times, no complains and mind you that was back in the day when it was unheard of anyone coming to the US and getting public assistance. Oh, and don't you need to have some form of documentation to get such benefits???? I'm sure no one complains about having to show their id to receive something.

As I hear the Mexican president voicing concerns, you do realize what you need on you in Mexico should try to live or do business there?

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A ridiculous shriek. You do realize that if you migrated into the U.S., legally you are required to carry documention stating so, i.e., green card, passport w/visa, at all times.

And you do realize that plenty of people born in the US look just like our southern neighbors. They're going to have to start carrying around papers to prove that they aren't immigrants. Sounds like a wonderful way to be made to feel at home.

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And you do realize that plenty of people born in the US look just like our southern neighbors. They're going to have to start carrying around papers to prove that they aren't immigrants. Sounds like a wonderful way to be made to feel at home.

Truly thoughtless statement. Police already ask you to identify yourself. And no one is exempted from the requirement to identify who you are. No one. There was a case about this very issue a few years back. A guy was stopped by police for some reason, he had no ID, and refused to identify himself. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court which ruled that everyone is required to Identify themselves.

Is carrying your papers, something that all non citizens are already legally required to do, really that terrible of a burden? When I'm home, oddly enough in Arizona, I always carry my drivers license around. I'd guess I'm typical of most Americans. Those few of us who don't carry ID, can still prove who we are easily enough. Simply answering a few questions will usually suffice if you're a citizen. If you're an illegal, then you should be deported anyway, so no loss.

Others have pointed this out repeatedly. Most Hispanics actually support this law. Most Hispanics living in Arizona actually support this law. The only ones who don't, are unsurprisingly the illegals, and those who are directly related to people who might get deported. Oh, and some ultra fringe open borders groups. The law is very well written, based on the constitution. Unless and until the congress changes US law, this Arizona law will stand.

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And you do realize that plenty of people born in the US look just like our southern neighbors. They're going to have to start carrying around papers to prove that they aren't immigrants. Sounds like a wonderful way to be made to feel at home."

thundercat: I'm one of those. And yes, I won't like it, but I have to ask myself is this, do I put up with an enforcement such as this or do I accept the thousands of latinos who have to put up with the current crime wave coming over the boarder? Do I accept that Arizona is #2 in the world for kidnapping, human trafficking, and then having a police force that is NOT ALLOWED to do next to nothing about it as immigration was supposed to be a fed duty. Mind you, for every ten people coming into the US, at least 2 of them are not coming for jobs nor to seek a better life but to prey on the weak and scared. Now times that number by the thousands. I know its a hard pill to swallow, but is there a better alternative because we all know the status quo is not the way to go. As for hitting the employers of these illegals, if you look at the numbers, it is not as big part of the problem many are led to believe.

I hope the bill is changed, but not to what you and many white libs want.

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And you do realize that plenty of people born in the US look just like our southern neighbors. They're going to have to start carrying around papers to prove that they aren't immigrants. Sounds like a wonderful way to be made to feel at home.

More shrieking nonsense. You do realize that Americans already have a type of identification issued by the U.S. government to prove they aren't immigrants. It's called a Social Security number.

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OssanAmerica:

Even though the UK has been under terrorist attack for decades, there is no law that requires the carrying of any form of ID by either citizens or non-citizens. Even when driving a car.

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Americans are required by law to carry ID with them at all times? Really?

No, Cleo. Despite the blather you encountered above, carrying ID at all times isn’t “the law of the land”.

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Even when driving a car? No license needed? No wonder Britain is in a world of hurt these days. And the USA is not Britain by the way 'mate'. ID is a good idea and yes Social Security is a great way to id yourself. I see no problem with the police being able to ask for proof of citizenship when one was obviously not brought up in the US.

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from zucronium:

More racist policies from the republicans . . .being latino and a republican is like a black joining the KKK.

That's the most ridiculous thing posted in quite a while. Typical Democrat though, race-baiting, namecalling, and nazi references.

The Arizona law is fine.

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"obviously not brought up in the US"

So one could be arrested for not having the "right" accent? How quaint.

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gd job

I support this because the illegal people need to get OUT of america

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Have critics of Arizona's proposed law to deal with illegal immigration seen Mexico's de facto immigration laws?

Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)

Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

...

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116) [ Source:http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632 ]

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The American law of the land is simple:

Carry ID, or you can be detained in jail, until an positive identification of you is made by the police. End of story.

If you need to use a lie to defend your "truth" then you are WRONG. It's simple...

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The problem as I see it is that this law, in practice, basically will result in treatment of hispanic Americans being reduced to that of parolees. Parolees can generally be searched whenever, wherever, for any reason. Demanding ID counts as a "search" under the 4th Amendment. Until now it must be based on "reasonable suspicion" a crime has been committed. Granted, it is a crime to be illegal. But no matter how you slice it, the only basis you have in demanding an ID from a person who you "suspect" to be illegal is that they look hispanic.

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Even when driving a car? No license needed? No wonder Britain is in a world of hurt these days. And the USA is not Britain by the way 'mate'

What's with the "mate" stuff?

Of course you need to possess a driving licence, but there's no obligation to carry it.

And there seems to be some confusion among your compatriots as to whether ID needs to be carried in the USA or not.

As for this law, if it's enforced fairly I don't see a problem. However it's pretty likely that some officers will regard a foreign looking/sounding person carrying no ID as suspicious, when they could in fact be committing no offence at all.

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What a bunch of rabid, unhinged haters: "opponents used refried beans to smear swastikas on the state Capitol, civil rights leaders demanded a boycott of the state." Imagine if Tea Party participants resorted to such tactics...

Uh, they DO, and worse. Actually, they hold up signs with Nazi's symbols, and many have links with the Nazi party. And then hold up signs with racial slurs too.

and are you suppose to carry your ID when out in the gulf surfing or swimming?" Perhaps they need to come up with a tatoo system ...

Yeh, really! These right-wingers just love that there SOVIET-like system with police "checking papers" at every block. They love it I tell you! But good point, the tattoo is next--just like the ole Bible says. I mentioned this to one right-wing Christian, and I said, "Hey, it looks like you right-wingers are the ones that institute the tattoo gig. Ain't that hoot? His response was, well at least it will keep us safe from Al Qaida. Too damn funny for words! Hey, you right-wingers, if you love this fascist, paper checking system so much why don't you all like move to Russia! Oh, yeh. Because they found it too much of a pain in the ass and they gave that system up. Hmmm...where you all you go now? But really, not having a flippin ID on you as you jogging or swimming and ending up in jail until someone shows up with the papers--God help you if your house like burned down with all of your ID too.

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And maybe, just maybe, if these right-wingers like boycotted all of these corporations that hired them, these illegals would have no choice but to either starve or go home. But you never see them 'attacking' or going after these companies. This problem would go away in a few months if they like enforced the present laws about employee identification when a new hire is taken on. Just saying!

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Carry ID, or you can be detained in jail, until an positive identification of you is made by the police. End of story.

Nonsense. You cannot be detained simply for not showing an ID to police.

"I want to know who you are" isn't probable cause.

For someone claiming to be American, you sure don't know squat about our laws.

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rat: You're partly wrong. It would help, especially if they enforce the hiring of Americans, like 99% of all other countries in the world. Have you taken a stat on how many are working vice how many are not? Those working for "reduced" wages are becoming more and more of a minority. Much more are coming in for their own business reasons. Also, remember, once a child is born in the US, it is a US citizen (rightfully so) and they can then collect public assistance and thus don't need to work and that includes all siblings, both parents and senior citizen grandparents.. Believe it or not, that does start adding up.

What has pushed this and has received support from many Hispanic Americans, is simply the crime that come over. Or, and I do hope they do this in NYC and crack down on Russians and Eastern Europeans.

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Laws only work if they are enforced. Will the Arizona police hire several thousand new cops? If they don't, who's going to prioritize their tasks? If the state has hundreds of thousands of illegals who haven't committed other crimes, what jobs will the police be transferred from to take care of this?

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Hey, seems some of you guys may get your wish, hear NY, NJ, Vir are all thinking of using the same "fed" law now too.

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Laws only work if they are enforced. Will the Arizona police hire several thousand new cops?

Arizona probably wouldn't need extra cops for this. They would probably just add an additional task to their checklist.

Sorta like when the states enacted the seatbelt law, or mandatory proof of insurance. All they do is check for it additionally during a traffic stop.

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I'm with SiouxChef on that one. There is no need for an American citizen to carry an ID at all time. If someone is not driving, biking or such, they do not need to carry ID except in a few places like Chicago if memory serves. If they are asked for identification, the US Supreme Court as already ruled that states can ask for people's names when asked by a police officer, not ID cards. What if you, living in Japan legally, were asked several times a week for your Alien Registration Card? Would you all still be for the Arizona law? I wonder. Already, people complain that they are being targeted for being foreigner in Japan... what if Japan had the same law... I'm really feeling for all those poor people driving while Hispanic, they're really going to get it.

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Uh, they DO, and worse. Actually, they hold up signs with Nazi's symbols, and many have links with the Nazi party. And then hold up signs with racial slurs too.

Heh, TheRat got lost on the way to the tea party rally, and ended up apparently at a klan rally. Although its hard to see how a person can confuse the 2. Apart from some of the Crash the Tea Party nuts, you just don't see bedsheets at a Tea Party.

What has pushed this and has received support from many Hispanic Americans, is simply the crime that come over. Or, and I do hope they do this in NYC and crack down on Russians and Eastern Europeans.

If they're in the country illegally, they damn well should. Doesn't matter where you come from, come to the country legally, and obey the laws, or get out.

Sorta like when the states enacted the seatbelt law, or mandatory proof of insurance. All they do is check for it additionally during a traffic stop.

Yep, exactly. Not any real problem, no additional cops needed, just one more thing to look at.

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opponents used refried beans to smear swastikas on the state Capitol ... and the Obama administration weighed a possible legal challenge.

Just goes to show that a community organizer doesn't make a very good nation organizer.

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sfjp330 at 07:51 AM JST - 28th April The real reason for Arizona law has very little to do with immigration >whether documented or not. The objective of new law is to provide >additonal law enforcement a tool to stop and seach suspected gang >members from Mexico that has infiltrated the major cities in Arizona.

If that is true then I'm all the more in favor of this Arizona Law! Why in the world would anyone be against it?

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taiko666 at 12:24 PM JST - 28th April Even though the UK has been under terrorist attack for decades, there is >no law that requires the carrying of any form of ID by either citizens >or non-citizens. Even when driving a car.

True, in the UK you are permitted to drive without your D/L in your posession. However if stopped by the police you are required to provide your name, address and DOB. If you do not hae your D/L on you you are required to present it in person at a police station within 7 days and you will be issued a ticket to that effect so that if you fail to show up they can come after you. In practice because of the terrorism and security issue most people in the UK are now carrying the D/L with them if for no other reason than to skip the trip to the police station later.

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taiko666 at 04:57 PM JST - 28th April And there seems to be some confusion among your compatriots as to >whether ID needs to be carried in the USA or not.

In the U.S. D/L are issued by each State. I am unaware of any State that does not specifically require that the D/L be carried when driving.

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OssanAmerica at 01:25 AM JST - 29th April. If that is true then I'm all the more in favor of this Arizona Law! Why in the world would anyone be against it?

The kidnapping problem has spilled over to the U.S., especially to Arizona. The Phoenix area is the kidnapping capital of America. With its numbers right behind Mexico, Phoenix is the number two kidnapping capital of the world. The kidnapping problem in Phoenix involves victims who are either illegal aliens or connected to the drug trade. The situation has gotten so bad that the fear is anyone who looks like they have money is in danger of being kidnapped. That most every victim and suspect is connected to the drug smuggling world, usually tracing back to Mexico. This is why the law enforcement needs this new law to combat this cartel problem and minimize legal proceedings.

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I have to wonder why my conservative friends here aren't up in arms about more government in their lives.

Funny how their beliefs work, isn't it.

Taka

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Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous.

Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer.[9] However, many states have “stop and identify” laws that explicitly require a person detained under the conditions of Terry to identify himself to a police officer, and in some cases, provide additional information.

chef, your burned, stick to boiling water and leave the thinking to your bosses....

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Yes, it is racial profiling. What you should really be concerned about is that, now, police do not have to have cause to pull you over and mess with you. It doesn't matter if your Mexican, Black, White, or Asian. If a cop decides to pull you over....now he does not need "just cause". It's other way around now, it's the law enforcement that is protected by the law.

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Quest, here is when a stop is justified in the US. A stop is justified if the suspect is exhibiting any combination of the following behaviors:

Appears not to fit the time or place. Matches the description on a "Wanted" person. Acts strangely, or is emotional, angry, fearful, or intoxicated. Loitering, or looking for something. Running away or engaging in furtive movements. Present in a crime scene area. Present in a high-crime area (not sufficient by itself or with loitering). There is nothing here that says you can be stopped while Hispanic which is what the new AZ law does.

Japan's laws are: A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation, where the policeman sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has committed a crime, or else when it has been officially determined that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. They cannot just arbitrarily come up to a person and ask him who he is. There must be a "specific crime" or "suspicion of a crime" involved... Being a foreigner is not probable cause.

Quest, I am not blind. SiouxChef and I think alike in this matter and we are entitled to our opinions. What the Terry case did was, like I said earlier, to give police officers in a dangerous or uncertain situation another flexible tool so they can react appropriately. The appropriate response for a citizen is to give their names, not to show ID. I fail to see what's dangerous about being Hispanic (or any other non-Caucasian facial features). What people are mostly worried about is the clear possibility of an exaggerate racial profiling and the US has, historically, been prone to exaggeration in that department.

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I'll add something else too... I think this new immigration law is racist, arbitrary, oppressive, mean-spirited and unjust and it is a mandate for racial profiling on a massive scale.

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If they are asked for identification, the US Supreme Court as already ruled that states can ask for people's names when asked by a police officer, not ID cards.

I presume you're referring to the Hiibel case. What you say is true but the court ruled that you must identify yourself if there is "reasonable suspicion" of a crime. You cannot be stopped by police for no reason and asked to identify yourself, even if just by name.

"I want to know who you are" isn't probable cause.

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And talking about exaggeration: Here's a quote from Pat Bertroche, an Urbandale physician and a candidate for GOP nomination: "I think we should catch ’em, we should document ’em, make sure we know where they are and where they are going. I actually support micro-chipping them. I can micro-chip my dog so I can find it. Why can’t I micro-chip an illegal? And you honestly think that police officers will not do any racial profiling? I'll file this under things that make me go Hmmm!

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Sorta like when the states enacted the seatbelt law, or mandatory proof of insurance. All they do is check for it additionally during a traffic stop. Yep, exactly. Not any real problem, no additional cops needed, just one more thing to look at.

Yeh, it is just like a few more minutes of their time to detain the tens or hundreds of thousands of people. Then a few more minutes to ferry them down to the station, and then a few more minutes to process them, and a few more minutes to "unprocess them" when you learn that they are legal. Yeh, with you right-wingers it is all so EASY. If you want to put all of these illegals in jails, you will have to build THOUSANDS of more jails to do this, and then hire THOUSANDS of more prosecutors to oversee the cases and THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of jailers to do this, and THOUSANDS of drivers to drive them back to their country of origin, and then pay tens of MILLIONS for the transportation costs, especially if they live in Europe.

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guest,

briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

I see that you now admit that that your original statements

Yup! Same as they would any American without an ID card, as it is against the law of the land. Carry ID, or you can be detained in jail, until an positive identification of you is made by the police. End of story.

. . . were simply wrong. As I said before, you cannot be detained simply for not carrying an ID. Despite the fantastic notion you have that Americans are without Fourth Amendment protections, U.S. citizens are not required to carry ID at all times and cannot be stopped and asked for identification without sufficient reason. "I want to know who you are" isn't probable cause.

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PeaceWarrior at 09:23 AM JST - 29th April. I'll add something else too... I think this new immigration law is racist, arbitrary, oppressive, mean-spirited and unjust and it is a mandate for racial profiling on a massive scale.

Have you ever been there? I don't think you understand the situation in Arizona. In Phoenix, there’s an increase in kidnappings that I relate to this increase in the drug war in Mexico. This is a prime distribution point for illegal drugs in the U.S., is a hub of cartel related violence. This matters a great deal, since violence if left unchecked, breeds only more violence and lawlessness to the point where civilization ceases to exist and becomes more a matter of sheer survival.

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The Mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, calls the proponents of this law bitter, small-minded and full of hate. I guess he's been there and understands the situation in Arizona, being a Mayor and all (Washington Post).

To answer your personal question: No, I have never been there since I gave up on the US as a tourist destination when my car was taken apart at the border between Canada and the US by officers trying to find "dope" in it. Also was harassed several times while on business trips to the US, mostly by airlines refusing boarding and Customs/Immigration not liking the fact that I lived in Japan and thus was a terror threat. So, no... I don't travel to the US even to go back to Canada to see the family. I guess my name found itself on some insane list and I am now, forever, going to have problems going there. Not that I want to now but I still loved my spring breaks in Palm Springs and Fort Lauderdale... hah, the good old days!

You are making all Latino citizens and legal immigrants into second-class citizens and that doesn't even bother you. Strange and disgraceful.

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SiouxChef-

A cop can find a reason to detain anyone at anytime,Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Use your common sense. I stand by my words if you don't have ID you can be detained until you are positively identified.

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A cop can find a reason to detain anyone at anytime,

Wrong again. Reasonable suspicion doesn't include an officer's gut feeling (see Terry vs. Ohio) nor does probable cause.

If you're contending that an officer can make something up when probable cause/reasonable suspicion doesn't exist, then you're only suggesting that an officer might break the law. That isn't the "law of the land".

Being stopped and required to identify yourself without probable cause for arrest or reasonable suspicion of a crime is a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

If you think otherwise, sorry, but (thankfully) the Supreme Court disagrees with your interpretation of the Constitution.

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The Mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, calls the proponents of this law bitter, small-minded and full of hate. I guess he's been there and understands the situation in Arizona, being a Mayor and all (Washington Post).

Phil, also known as "Flash" Gordon, isn't exactly the most unbiased person. He's the guy pushing for guest worker employment centers, where the illegals can go and find work. He wanted to file a lawsuit against this bill, only to find out, that most of the city council is actually in favor of the law. Only 2 of the people were even willing to consider it.

You are making all Latino citizens and legal immigrants into second-class citizens and that doesn't even bother you. Strange and disgraceful.

Again, most Latino citizens actually support this measure. They're not second class citizens, they're citizens. Racial profiling is explicitly prohibited in this bill.

. . . were simply wrong. As I said before, you cannot be detained simply for not carrying an ID. Despite the fantastic notion you have that Americans are without Fourth Amendment protections, U.S. citizens are not required to carry ID at all times and cannot be stopped and asked for identification without sufficient reason. "I want to know who you are" isn't probable cause.

Of course not. People aren't stopped merely for walking down the street. However if the cops see you waving a gun around, they'll stop and ask you a few pertinent questions. If they see you weaving all over the road while driving, same thing. Then if you don't have a license, they're going to ask if you're in the country legally, if you have papers. If you don't, or aren't, then they'll arrest you, if previously you would have merely gotten a ticket for speeding, now you get arrested, charged with being in the country illegally, and deported.

Its a good change. It basically makes what is already a federal crime, a state crime. Arizona is simply saying, if the Federal Government can't be bothered to enforce the law, we will.

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Molenir, the law requires police to ask for immigration papers from anyone whom they have a "reasonable suspicion" might be in the country illegally. Law-enforcement officials are also empowered to detain anyone they hold in such suspicion.

It's also a state crime under the new law for immigrants to be found without immigration papers; individual citizens, meanwhile, can file suit against state agencies that fail to enforce the law. Police can detain and demand papers from anyone they have "lawful contact" with, but since the law defines illegal immigrants as trespassing when in any part of the United States, this gives the police the freedom to question people otherwise not breaking the law or engaging in suspicious activity.

Since roughly 30 percent of Arizona is Hispanic and about 80 percent of illegal immigrants are also Hispanic, the law basically mandates that police engage in racial profiling—i.e., apprehending people based on their appearance rather than on any evidence that they may be in violation of the law.

I sincerely doubt that "most Latino citizens actually support this measure" since they are going to be targeted along with everyone else.

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The real question is, for right-wingers, how much will your taxes go UP and UP to actually enforce the law. I mean, like I said before, you need to have tens of thousands of people to actually carry this all out, and to deport these, "hundreds of thousands" of illegals. Going to cost you. The issue is: are you willing to put your money where your nasty mouth is? Willing to really put out for this? I wonder, as you all sure as heck did not want to put out and pay for the Iraq war. It is always, I want draconian Soviet-like laws and punishments, but I don't want to pay for it.

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People aren't stopped merely for walking down the street. However if the cops see you waving a gun around, they'll stop and ask you a few pertinent questions. If they see you weaving all over the road while driving, same thing . . .

I never said otherwise; I'm saying people CANNOT legally be stopped just for walking down the street.

I was only addressing guest's woeful misunderstanding of Fourth Amendment rights (it's the "law of the land" to always carry ID, "cops can stop you for anything" and demand you identify yourself, etc.).

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Again, most Latino citizens actually support this measure - Molenir

Sorry that is not true a two new polls came out and one said 72% of legal Arizona Hispanics said they are against the law. Another said nationwide 67.7% of legal Hispanics said they are against the Arizona law.

Just wait until Arizona feels the pinch of the boycotts affecting the state. Trade and tourism will go down.

BOYCOTT BIGOTED ARIZONA!

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I sincerely doubt that "most Latino citizens actually support this measure" since they are going to be targeted along with everyone else." Well, unless you are hispanic yourself, you probably won't know and only assume. Now, for this hispanic, I support such a law momentarily. And, at least its no where near as bad of a law as the country of origin for most of these illegals - Mexico. And to think the Mexican government, who has one of the most draconian immigration laws in the western hemisphere, are up in arms about this proposal.

We also need to get some terms down. You keep yelling Hispanic. We are much more than just Mexico. Yesterday I said I hope this law gains power and hits places like Chicago and New York and I hope they hit two of the most disgusting nationalities to be high on the illegal immigrant radar and they are not Hispanic and I won't say European but I will instead name the nationalities at the appropriate time (but they are European).

As for carrying papers.. do you have a problem carrying your id when making a purchase with your credit card? Do you have a problem carrying an id trying to cash in that lottery you just won? Do you have a problem showing your medical records? Do you have a problem showing your id card to pick up your welfare check, get food stamps, oh and getting a home loan?

My mom and her entire family had no problems carrying such documents/ids, they had no problem obeying the laws.... You basically just spit in every Hispanic who has come to the US, worked hard, become part of the model citizenry. Why are illegals all of a sudden so much more valuable than those of us who are legal? Because you are putting a higher value on them. You must be thinking they are better than us and they should be able to cut the line. Oh, and when are you going to at least recognize the amount of Hispanics who have been killed by those illegally coming over the border. When are you going to wave a sign and say "hey, I feel sorry for you little kids who've been kidnapped, drugged up, killed for some cartel, but hey, its better for the overall outlook in forgetting the criminal past (no state has the right to check a police record in a foreign country) of these guys. No, let's just give them an amnesty because they are really only about x%. Its just a few bad apples.

Man, why are you spitting in my family's face?

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Man, why are you spitting in my family's face?

Get real dude; enough of the hyperbole.

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Man, why are you spitting in my family's face? Get real dude; enough of the hyperbole."

Yeah. Tell me why has every other Hispanic had to go through the legal route up until now? Yes, you are spitting all the other Hispanics who have become the perfect models' faces.

Would you like me to enter Mexico and demand what's being demanded by the opponents of this bill? No, you support Mexico's sovereign laws.

Sorry that is not true a two new polls came out and one said 72% of legal Arizona Hispanics said they are against the law. Another said nationwide 67.7% of legal Hispanics said they are against the Arizona law." Well, take a look at how many of us are in the US. That it is still a lot of us against it, and you probably got that from a ultra lib news source I bet.

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Molenir, the law requires police to ask for immigration papers from anyone whom they have a "reasonable suspicion" might be in the country illegally. Law-enforcement officials are also empowered to detain anyone they hold in such suspicion.

Umm, apparently you missed something here. Like how they must be being question for something else. As in, they've been pulled over... Or, cops are called for a domestic disturbance etc. Some other reason. Then if there is a "reasonable suspicion" they can arrest them. Cops make judgment calls like this all the time. From when to pull their weapon, to when to chase a suspect. This is a much less disturbing call to make. I think they can handle it.

Just wait until Arizona feels the pinch of the boycotts affecting the state. Trade and tourism will go down.

Not gonna happen. Oh, there might be a mini boycott with a few cities, and various people. But large numbers of corporations won't boycott Arizona, nor will states. It will cost them too much, and the threat of a reciprocal boycott is very real. San Francisco if they carry through is going to have a huge problem. Because it won't just be Arizona companies that start refusing to go there, but other companies will be pointed out as being in favor of Illegal immigration, if they hold their conventions, or do business with the city. And a company that boycotts Arizona, won't likely be able to do business with the state. And with most people in the country supporting this law, actually boycotting Arizona would cost them far more business then you might think, as people all over the country refuse to do business with them.

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you need there is a real good side to the oppenent stance on this. If amnesty is followed through, this law is torn down and the left will expect votes from such immigrants. Well, most of us are roman catholic. Most of us are against 90% of what the left stands for. The left might be cutting their own feet.

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Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɜrbəli/[1], from ancient Greek ὑπερβολή 'exaggeration') is a rhetorical device in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally."

You know, I honestly never knew what that word meant. So, the duuude man NoAmericanIdiot feels I am over exaggerating... I like to know where in my post is there any exaggerations.

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guest,

The words came from your keyboard. Specifically, in response to sfjp330's analogy about a Mexican American stopped without reason and not having ID, as to whether or not they could be detained, you said:

Yup! Same as they would any American without an ID card, as it is against the law of the land.

Wrong. That would be an illegal stop.

And your response to me when I answered cleo's question as to whether "Americans are required by law to carry ID with them at all times" (of course they are not) was:

American law of the land is simple: Carry ID, or you can be detained in jail, until an positive identification of you is made by the police. End of story.

Wrong again. And then this:

A cop can find a reason to detain anyone at anytime

Wrong yet again.

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American law of the land is simple: Carry ID, or you can be detained in jail, until an positive identification of you is made by the police. End of story.

Wrong again. And then this:

Without ID, you can be detained, it's simply the law of the land.

I'm it must be frustrating having your facts wrong but your personal attacks are just childish.

Classic Freudian slip.

Funny, you started it, but now claim to take the high road, too bad it's a slippery slope.

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Funny, you started it, but now claim to take the high road, too bad it's a slippery slope.

The only thing I started was the correction your misunderstanding of American law, Fourth Amendment protections in particular. And you apparently need to look up "slippery slope" because I certainly haven't presented one.

Repeating "Without ID, you can be detained, it's simply the law of the land" doesn't change what you said; I didn't misquote you nor did take anything out of context:

You claimed that a Mexican American can be stopped without cause and then detained for not showing ID. False.

When I corrected your misinformation about carrying ID being a requirement, you repeated that carrying ID (or be detained) is the "law of the land". False.

Finally, you asserted that "A cop can find a reason to detain anyone at anytime". False.

0 out of 3 ain't bad.

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--Well, unless you are hispanic yourself, you probably won't know and only assume. Now, for this hispanic.

Nope, not Hispanic, but I am part of the minority in my home country, not being of Anglophone descent!

--As for carrying papers.. do you have a problem carrying your id when making a purchase with your credit card? Do you have a problem carrying an id trying to cash in that lottery you just won? Do you have a problem showing your medical records? Do you have a problem showing your id card to pick up your welfare check, get food stamps, oh and getting a home loan?

No, not a problem whatsoever, although I have never been on welfare so I wouldn't know how I would feel honestly. I would, however, have a big problem being targeted because of the way I look. But, if you don't, there isn't much I can say to change your mind.

--Man, why are you spitting in my family's face?

You have to understand that I would never spit in your family's face. That's not done. I try to respect people I know, people I don't know and people I discuss topics with on the net. I will not get into a shouting match over how you and I perceive the world. I will not reciprocate.

My point was not to take the side of the illegal immigrants in Arizona, but rather how it would affect all people who do not look/sound like Caucasians. Read my post again, that's what I meant.

Cheers!

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--Umm, apparently you missed something here. Like how they must be being question for something else. As in, they've been pulled over... Or, cops are called for a domestic disturbance etc. Some other reason. Then if there is a "reasonable suspicion" they can arrest them. Cops make judgment calls like this all the time. From when to pull their weapon, to when to chase a suspect. This is a much less disturbing call to make. I think they can handle it.

No I didn't. Read the second and third paragraphs of my reply. It's in there.

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But, if you don't, there isn't much I can say to change your mind." If there were so many killing and pain to Hispanics, I probably wouldn't blink. Change my mind, stop the violence that is coming over the border that is hurting Hispanics just simply trying to work and live and I'll change my mind. You can not tell you me you support a visitor to your place without knowing who is who. Do you open your doors to every salesman coming to your door? Haven't you ever had a suspicious character knock on your door? Did you let him in?

That border, at the moment, needs to be regulated. I don't care what Janet says about it being safe as ever. The young guys coming over are not coming over to work on a farm. Again, I ask you to look more at the Cuban and Puerto Rican communities before you think 100% of this bill is simply anti-Hispanic.

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If there were so many killing" correction, if there weren't so many killings.

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does Mexico have a right to pass an even stricter immigration law?

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There is actually a 200,000 yen fine for not carrying and showing you foreign registration card whenever the police ask for it here in Japan. Now, if I remember, about 10 odd years ago, the police actually found some foreigner and actually imposed the fine. Oh my! The HELL the guy raised caused such embarrassment that the police have never ever imposed that fine again. Now, let's imagine, you can not proof your identity. Your house has been robbed, you lost the stuff in some recent moves you made, your house burned down. What are the cops supposed to do with you? This is actually a serious issue as I had to re-new my two sons passport and they needed the consulate given birth certificates which I had misplaced. Tore up the house and had to eventually get new ones. PAIN in the ASS! Three month procedure. Finally found the old ones a while back---sheesh, and so I have now framed the new ones and have the old ones in a safe. But really--the sheer inconvenience of having to PROVE your legality all the time, which they have to do now in Arizona. Welcome to SOVIET Arizona, I say.

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Molenir,

You're wrong about boycotts having little effect. The Cincinnati Reds pulled their minor league team from Arizona and other teams are doing the same.

Without the cactus league, the only thing to see in Arizona is the Grand Canyon and the world's most yellow teeth (john mccain).

Taka

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You're wrong about boycotts having little effect. The Cincinnati Reds pulled their minor league team from Arizona and other teams are doing the same.

They've been threatening to do this for years. And not just them. Its not this issue thats bringing this up, its economic ones. Reds want more dollars to hold their spring training in Az, theres a competitive offer in Florida. We go through this every single year. The Cubs have been talking about moving back to Florida again too.

Without the cactus league, the only thing to see in Arizona is the Grand Canyon and the world's most yellow teeth (john mccain).

Good one. I disagree obviously. McCain teeth aren't worth seeing. Particularly not in comparison with the Grand Canyon.

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I don't understand this phobia that so many people have towards carrying ID on them at all times outside of their homes. Or presenting it if needed. What are you all, criminals with multiple identities? Being able to identify yourself to anyone on the spot is an enormous benefit and advantage to yourself. As another poster correctly pointed out we show our IDs for various reasons without hesitation. What if you are in an accident or have a heart attack and collapse. Do you want to remain unidentified?

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Molenir,

The story I read actually quoted the Reds as saying something to the effect that they don't feel comfortable being in Arizona because of their Latino players.

It could be that's just a new and convenient excuse but they did put it out there.

Taka

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timorborder: wrote: "I think it is just a matter of time before something goes wrong and they either jail a US citizen, or worse, deport some US citizen to climes south of the border."

Ah yes that would make a great movie: Oh I forgot it already did "born in east LA" LOL

But it won't be so funny when people (US citizens and legal immigrants) start suing for civil rights abuse! And you all know it is going to happen and it will cost the tax payer of Arizona more than they think.

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this is gonna really screw up my "I am an illegal" line when I get on an airline = no show of an ID or nothing. Easiest way to get on a plane.

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Cops for the most in Arizona do not want this law as they know its stupid and unenforceable.

I know about a half dozen cops, 2 of whom are hispanic. Every single one of them is in favor of this. Admittedly, they're all Phoenix cops, so its not exactly a representative sample, but still, I haven't heard anything about 'most' cops not wanting this. In fact, the opposite is true. I've heard these guys complain repeatedly how there is nothing they can do. Now there is.

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I don't understand this phobia that so many people have towards carrying ID on them at all times outside of their homes. Or presenting it if needed. What are you all, criminals with multiple identities?

Geez, I just thought that the ole, "show your papers at every block" was so LAST century and so SOVIET. Amazing how you right-wingers hate freedom, like the freedom of NOT being harassed at any time. But, you are missing an important point--the flippin criminals will have multiple identities and they will have all of their "papers" multiple ones if needed, so having a "card" does not prove anything. You might catch some dumb criminals, but you can do that anyhow. Besides, Japan tried this stupid citizen ID card thing a while back and it FLOPPED big time. The city of Yokohama immediately refused. I mean, you have to have every citizen go down to city hall, be photographed, have all of their papers in order, and then take this time out from WORK! Employers were freaking out, as like "who was going to pay for this lost time?" And God help you if someone stole your birth certificate and had ID theft. Never mind the overall cost of city actually paying for the cards and then replacement cards and the endless series of cards for children. Stupid. If you right-wingers want a Soviet playground, why not just go out and make your own country!!!

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I haven't heard anything about 'most' cops not wanting this. In fact, the opposite is true.

Source for this fact?

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I know about a half dozen cops, 2 of whom are hispanic. Every single one of them is in favor of this.

Wow, miraculously Molenir always finds people around him or that he knows that agree with him; it must mean he is right. Between his personal attestation and anecdotal evidence he always has all the bases covered. Although his personal attestment should be all we require to understand that he must be right and cops must be looking forward to prosecuting every single illegal alien we are still left shaking our heads. Does he even know about logical fallacies? Does he not know that many of us know dozens of cops and refuse to believe that in Arizona they would rather be working on rounding up harmless families then doing the work of catching criminals?

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Wow, miraculously Molenir always finds people around him or that he knows that agree with him; it must mean he is right. Between his personal attestation and anecdotal evidence he always has all the bases covered.

Heh, well at least you admit I'm right. Still, personal attacks do not become you.

As far a source for this, like I said, I know about a half dozen cops. One of my neighbors is a cop, the security guards where I work are cops. (Rather cops moonlighting as security guards to make a few extra bucks.) If you're talkative, its not all that surprising you find out what people think. While the bill was being debated, and even after it was passed, I talked to these guys. One of the guys that moonlight as security is a guy name Jesus. Yeah as you might guess from his name, he's hispanic. And yes, he was in favor of the law. I admit I was a bit surprised, but he said a lot of the same things that skip has been saying.

With several thousand cops in the Phoenix area alone, I can't exactly claim to know how all of them think, but the guys I know, all are in favor of it. If you don't like that, tough. If you want to cite statistics, and articles proving me wrong, proving how non-representative my sample is, feel free, but keep the personal attacks to a minimum eh.

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Here's what happens if you are stopped by the police for some reason and do not have an ID on your person:

"Sir, may I see some ID?"

"Sorry officer, I left my wallet at home?"

"Are you a resident of Arizona?"

"Yes, officer"

"Do you have a driver's license?"

"Yes, officer"

"Can I have your name, address and SSN?"

"Sure It's.............."

Cop goes to his cruiser and punches in the info into his in car computer and gets a display of your DL including photo.

"Thank you Mr. ..... have a nice day."

This is just an example, they can still identify you even if you are from out of state or do not have a license. BUT, if you answer any of the questions with "No Comprende" prepare to be there a while.

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Nice try Molnir but there were no personal attacks in my post. It is obvious you have no idea what a personal attack is. Try visiting a website that would explain that and other logical fallacies. Just because you are exposed for your weak information does not make it personal. Even raising doubt as to the veracity of your sources and/or information does not make it personal.

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

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Poll: 51% favor Ariz. law

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36567.html

This law is right. If the cops have suspicion of other criminal activity, why not check if the suspect is an illegal entrant as well? This is perfectly reasonable.

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How many Caucasians will be stopped for an ID, I wonder...

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This is a great law, well overdue.

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How many Caucasians will be stopped for an ID, I wonder...

Read the law. They can't stop you for an ID. However, if they stop you for reasonable suspicion of committing another crime, then they can check your immigration status. Sounds fair enough.

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Nice try Molnir but there were no personal attacks in my post.

Perhaps you should go back and read your previous post. I don't know what you thought you were writing, but I read it as a direct personal attack. You accused me of being a liar. Not me citing some lying reference, but me lying. Sorry, but any way you slice it, that is a direct personal attack.

As I said, feel free to disagree, feel free to go and find some source showing my admittedly limited sample is not representative of the greater number of cops. I'm from Phoenix, living there now. I don't claim to know every cop, I don't claim to know how cops in Tuscon, Douglass, or Yuma think. I said I know a half dozen cops, they're all Phoenix Cops, and they're all in favor of it. Thats it. If you don't like that, tough. I really don't care.

You should let everyone know where you live. Based on your comments, I'm sure you won't have any problem with people you don't know coming over, and camping in your back yard.

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Apparently the Police Chief disagrees with your findings Molnir.

The Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris, chief of Arizona's largest city said on Friday the state's controversial new crackdown on illegal immigrants would likely create more problems than it solved for local law enforcement. Harris said asking officers to determine immigration status during an investigation would interfere with their primary job.

per Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63T5G220100430

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Right on NoAmericanIdiot! About to post the same article. And the chief adds, ""We have the tools that we need to enforce the laws in this state, to reduce property crime and reduce violent crime, to go after criminals that are responsible for human smuggling," and other border-related crimes." What I found was interesting, was that one right-wing politician, maybe a congressman from Arizona was also willing to deport Americans too! Yeh, the children of illegal alien parents. This is what you all are forgetting. There is an AGENDA here. First we go after the illegals and then we start really checking into the next lot to deport, and then deporting Americans that we simply don't like too!

What techall forgets is that the previous conversation that he mentions as so easy is actually so illegal! You don't have to answer the questions unless you are committing a crime. What techall is supporting is a mild form of fascism. That is how it all works. This is just a friendly and easy form of fascism, why object? Then the next step and the next easy step.

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This is great; just another boycott against Arizona. Soon there will be far too many to list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KivysSIuLdo&feature=player_embedded

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Yes there is an agenda by the democrats to increase their voting base in the form of illegal aliens. So when anyone tries to clamp down on illegal aliens the diversionary tactic of screaming racism always begin. They march out the same old group of clowns like the good old Rev Al Sharpton to make their case. The good news though is the more they use it the less effective it becomes.

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Legally issued ID cards are proof of identity. If you don't carry your ID you risk being detained by the police until you, or they, can make positive identification. Therefore, it follows that without ID, you can be detained for not having ID, even if the original cause for the police to interact with you was proven incorrect. Welcome to the real world."

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Arizona Sheriff shot by illegal aliens today. http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=121097&catid=14

Also, speaking of boycotts there are about 20 million illegal aliens who should probably consider boycotting Arizona.

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LouReed at 11:59 AM JST - 1st May

Arizona Sheriff shot by illegal aliens today.

Shame on you for misrepresentation. The article said nothing about illegal aliens.

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Legally issued ID cards are proof of identity. If you don't carry your ID you risk being detained by the police until you, or they, can make positive identification. Therefore, it follows that without ID, you can be detained for not having ID, even if the original cause for the police to interact with you was proven incorrect. Welcome to the real world."

You're a fascist, plain and simple. So, every block or so, I have to show an ID, or my Filipino (naturalized American wife) too? Stupid.

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Yes there is an agenda by the democrats to increase their voting base in the form of illegal aliens.

Hey Lou . . . keep this one the DL but . . . but illegal immigrants can't vote.

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So, every block or so, I have to show an ID, or my Filipino (naturalized American wife) too? Stupid.

Showing your wife to the police would not satisfy the police requirements for ID, NO.

I guess, if you, or, your wife is shady enough looking, and committing crimes... Then yes, I would hope that the police would question you.

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guest,

Legally issued ID cards are proof of identity. If you don't carry your ID you risk being detained by the police until you, or they, can make positive identification. Therefore, it follows that without ID, you can be detained for not having ID, even if the original cause for the police to interact with you was proven incorrect. Welcome to the real world."

I see you're coming around on this one.

However, in the real world, people have an avenue for recourse when their rights are violated.

AZ should be prepared for lawsuits they can't win if this law is approached that way.

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I see you're coming around on this one.

That's because we are going in circles.

No ID = possible detention = can be detained 4 no ID.

If you have ID, you can flip the cop the bird, right in his face. Its your Constitutional Right.

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You don't need an ID to flip the bird. It's not illegal.

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You don't need an ID to flip the bird. It's not illegal.

True, but, expect to be detained and possibly probed for information and, or, weapons.

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Shame on you for misrepresentation. The article said nothing about illegal aliens.

Umm, but he was shot by illegals. How is that misrepresenting anything?

http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/2010/04/30/20100430pinal-county-deputy-shot-immigrant30-ON.html

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Again,the ID thing was a disaster here in Japan. Too much of a pain to photograph some 130 million people, and then do it again, periodically, when they lose their ID. You right-wingers have to know that fascism is COSTLY. So, are you all willing to pay more taxes for this nonsense--to lock em up, to deport em, to photograph everyone? 20,000 yen says that you right-wingers are too cheap for that!!

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Illegals can't vote, really?? The fact is that you are not required to show your ID in most states when you go to vote. There have been several attempts in some states to do so because of the concern over illegals voting but of course the left screams racism. Plus in many states you can get a drivers license if you are not a citizen. Ever hear of the motor voter act = get a license and register to vote.

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Molenir, read your own damn article. It says nothing but "She added that the shooters are Hispanic men who "appear to be undocumented."" They have not caught them yet so how could the person who said that even know that?

Nice try Molenir, but you are just letting us know you are willing to be part of the deceit. It does not matter if they later turn out to be illegal aliens; the fact of the matter is that it is not now known and it is deceitful to represent it that way.

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Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes, lots and lots of legal residents, and citizens are drug smugglers. Sure, in fact everyone I know is a drug smuggler...

Yeah, sorry, nice try, but not buying it. The guys that shot him are almost certainly illegals who crossed the border smuggling drugs. If you're not from Arizona, you almost certainly haven't got a clue as to whats going on here.

Kidnapping, Murder, Rape, Drug Smuggling. Every single one of these things is being caused by illegals. No, not all rapes and murders are done by illegals. But you take out the crimes committed by illegals, and Arizona is actually a very peaceful state. Thats the impact. On hospitals, schools everything. Arizona, is being overwhelmed. This law is saying, since the Feds won't do their job, we'll take care of it, at least here in our state.

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This law is saying, since the Feds won't do their job, we'll take care of it, at least here in our state.

Yeh really Molenir? Are you willing to pay for it? I don't think so! Deportations do NOT come cheap and peope like you are cheapskates. So, where does like the money come from? Huh?

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Gee, Arizona wants to control its borders. What a scandalous concept!

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Yeh really Molenir? Are you willing to pay for it? I don't think so! Deportations do NOT come cheap and peope like you are cheapskates. So, where does like the money come from? Huh?

Let me think, deport them, or pay for their health insurance, their medical care, their welfare checks... Yeah, tough call. Hell of a lot cheaper to deport em.

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Gee, Arizona wants to control its borders. What a scandalous concept!

Of course, it's not a scandalous concept. I think AZ state is just being pragmatic when it comes to the issue of border protection. It's an election year after all and I doubt (and the AZ gov knows) that it'll be difficult for Mr OBAMA to come up with his own alternative soon.

(Are they opportunistic in AZ for getting around the issue first before the Fed Gov.? I don't think so)

And the new amnesty bill being studied is the same as the failed 1986 version. It's the same vague promises that in the end won't solve the problem of illegals in the US. The previous Amnesty bill covered roughly 3 mil people. If passed, the new Amnesty bill will cover an est. 10 mil people

Let me think, deport them, or pay for their health insurance, their medical care, their welfare checks... Yeah, tough call.

NO, not really. To be fair to opponents of the AZ bill, the new Amnesty bill being studied will actually prevent illegal aliens from taking gov. money/ benefits till a certain time and with imposed conditions. They'll be supervised and monitored by immigration officers as well (which is kinda like racial profiling by choice)

These measures will not, however, prevent future influx of illegal aliens into the US. Furthermore, proposes being floated does not answer questions like 'what if John Doe can't find work? Will we then reassess our provisions?' The details on a new Amnesty proposal are just too sketchy for any fair-minded person to support, let alone decide on it.

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If the U.S. govenment really want to put pressure on illegal immigrants who are taking job away from American workers who are living and working legally in Arizona, all they have to do is to put pressure on the employers. If the employers hires anybody in Arizona, they have to have verified proof of citizenship and permanent status ID card in their company file. At anytime, Feds can check randomly on any company and if they request, they have to show to the Feds copy of legal document of all of their employees. If an Employer cannot come up the proper document, the Feds can fine heavily on first and second offense, and on third offense, Feds have option to close the business. This will wake them up.

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If the employers hires anybody in Arizona, they have to have verified proof of citizenship and permanent status ID card in their company file. At anytime, Feds can check randomly on any company and if they request, they have to show to the Feds copy of legal document of all of their employees.

Things are not as simple as what the eye sees. If things run as plain and simplistic then undocumented workers would not have ballooned to its current state-- 10 million illegal aliens in the United States. Now that's a big number. And whether or not you choose to pay for their entitlements and basic benefits, the sheer size alone would stretch any country's resources and budget.

The AZ law's a pragmatic first step forward. Now if the Democrats want to counter it, then they have to be pragmatic and realistic as well.

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If an Employer cannot come up the proper document, the Feds can fine heavily on first and second offense, and on third offense, Feds have option to close the business. This will wake them up.

Police raids on aliens that you see on tv are just the tip of the iceberg. You can be confident that a large chunk of these people don't work in shoddy environments, and some may not even be your usual suspects. Think of construction sites, five-star hotels, multi-million dollar casino industries. Businesses that can buy their way around. And organized crime are not as daft as you think. So who exactly are you trying to wake up?!

And as for the fine, it depends on the gravity of how many illegals are working in the business. You want to close large enterprises that utilizes illegal aliens repeatedly, then sure go ahead :)

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Geez, with global warming coming on, and if there are tens of millions of refugees fleeing hot dry hellholes, what would you boys recommend? Shoot them at the border? This is just the beginning. But as one right-wing politician said, these measures are like that of the Gestapo. And then it is another step when this just doesn't solve the problem---which it won't!!!!

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Geez, with global warming coming on, and if there are tens of millions of refugees fleeing hot dry hellholes, what would you boys recommend? Shoot them at the border?

Shift the pop. burden to Western nations then? Perhaps you'd prefer that.

But to answer your question, people from areas affected by the so-called global warming may in fact be qualified for 'refugee' status. But as you see, to qualify as a genuine refugee you need to meet vigorous tests as well-- just like everything else. :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/global-warming-creates-worldrsquos-first-climate-change-refugees-1653863.html

For what it's worth, at least you can bank on AZ's new enforcement law

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ruaustralia at 12:38 PM JST - 4th Maj.Things are not as simple as what the eye sees. If things run as plain and simplistic then undocumented workers would not have ballooned to its current state-- 10 million illegal aliens in the United States. Now that's a big number. And whether or not you choose to pay for their entitlements and basic benefits, the sheer size alone would stretch any country's resources and budget.

From the way you write, you really don't understand the impact of illegal workers in the U.S. or how the agricultural industries are run in U.S. and the what the benefit of illegal workers provide for the citizens of U.S. Most of the agriculture industries are located in central valley, California and Texas are mostly of Mexican illegal migrant workers which accounts for 95 percent of workers and they supply produce products to the entire U.S. Up to now, and still, the U.S. immigration looks at otherway and not enforce the law. If they deport all these illegal farm workers, there will be a consequences on produce products in the U.S., such as shortage and possibly doubling the price overnight. Also, if the event might cause instability in Mexican economics and govenment.

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jruaustralia at 12:56 PM JST - 4th May. Police raids on aliens that you see on tv are just the tip of the iceberg. You can be confident that a large chunk of these people don't work in shoddy environments, and some may not even be your usual suspects. Think of construction sites, five-star hotels, multi-million dollar casino industries. Businesses that can buy their way around. And organized crime are not as daft as you think. So who exactly are you trying to wake up?! And as for the fine, it depends on the gravity of how many illegals are working in the business. You want to close large enterprises that utilizes illegal aliens repeatedly, then sure go ahead :)

The U.S. population in general is getting fed up with illegals. There is going to be a hardline approach to this problem. In fact majority of the population in the U.S. currently supports Arizona law. These businesses will have to make major adjustment in the future if the immigration laws become difficult for their business. It's only a matter of time.

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From the way you write, you really don't understand the impact of illegal workers in the U.S. or how the agricultural industries are run in U.S. and the what the benefit of illegal workers provide for the citizens of U.S.

Ah yes, I don't. I wasn't aware of course of the targeted amnesty for the agricultural sector during the late 80s. And I don't understand the difference between a targeted amnesty and the sketchy one signed by Mr. Reagan and the one they're trying to replicate now. Would you happen to know the consequences if a broad amnesty's enacted for 10 mil. people?

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Illegal immigrants are concentrated in construction, agriculture and cleaning jobs. They make up 36% of all insulation workers, 29% of agricultural workers and 29% of roofers.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-29-immigration-debate_x.htm

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jruaustralia at 03:39 PM JST - 5th May. Would you happen to know the consequences if a broad amnesty's enacted for 10 mil. people?

In a broader sense, the number of illegal immigrants can be reduced substantially over the course of 10 to 20 years. The longer term reduction approach might minimize economic impact on U.S. and minimize economic instability in Mexico. This is what concerns most politicians.

As you mentioned about construction, agriculture and cleaning jobs. They are concentrated mostly around the border states, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

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ruaustralia at 03:39 PM JST - 5th May. Would you happen to know the consequences if a broad amnesty's enacted for 10 mil. people?

This will not happen. The amnestry is no longer a viable option for most of the illegals. If they want to enter U.S., they have to wait like everybody else in their own country. The slow growth in the U.S. economy and high unemployement contribute to resentment by majority of U.S. population to amnesty. This is not a popular politics for the U.S. citizens. Also, with the rising health care cost, there is also additionl resentment toward illegal immigrants getting free health care at the expense of American taxpayers.

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In a broader sense, the number of illegal immigrants can be reduced substantially over the course of 10 to 20 years. The longer term reduction approach might minimize economic impact on U.S. and minimize economic instability in Mexico. This is what concerns most politicians.

Sigh.

Unfortunately, what you have in mind is not what liberal/ ethnic activists in the US want. Even the Democrats might think that the 10-20 years deadline would only make the bleeding heart constituents agitated.

The last attempt to resurrect an amnesty program was in 2006-07. It's sketchy, that even illegal immigrants won't be able to bank on it. Are they learning from past mistakes? A simple Google would answer that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/23/washington/23amnesty.html

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In a broader sense, the number of illegal immigrants can be reduced substantially over the course of 10 to 20 years.

And in a broader sense the people have been patient enough. And AZ's doing what's right.

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As an Arizona resident I understand that many foreign countries have plundering corrupt governments and deplorable living & working conditions, and on the one hand my heart goes out to those that feel they have no other choice but to flee and leave everything they own & love behind. But what has happened is that Arizona tax payers have been forced to absorb the cost of people fleeing into our state, sending their wages back to their families in other countries untaxed! Receiving medical, food & housing benifits that not even our own citizens are qualifying for. The illigal immigrants are unlawfully driving unlicensed and uninsuredfurther causing more cost to our taxpayers by hiking our insurance rates through the roof when the are involved in accidents. Our school classrooms have been teaching illegal children having to print literature in a foreign language at taxpayer cost. If you walk into a Social Security office or welfare office you will encounter almost nonexistent literature in english, mostly for the spanish speaking! I read a comment from a farmer stating Americans wouldn't accept the work that the illegals would accept. Perhaps if the farmers paid a "normal" wage, instead of the deflated wages they got away with paying illegals(for the mear fact that they were illegal) those jobs could be American filled! The cost of illegals has drained our economy dry. Those who would argue that our new immigration law is predjuditial law toward Mexicans, not in my eyes...just happens that that is the country they are coming from in extremely high numbers, other countries illegal must take care because this law applies to all colors, races & nationalities not just Mexicans!

Perhaps those of you that disagree with our law, will feel soon what we have been going through, because they WILL migrate your way bringing absorbing costs and problems to your taxpayers! Illegal is illegal is illegal! Go Arizona!!! You are a Strong beautiful state that I am proud to live in!

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