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Giffords leaves hospital in Arizona

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Yes. I agree with this.

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Does it constitute a possible death threat? It seems so.

Once law enforecement is satisfied the owner of the picture did not intend any threat, the picture remains up. There are countries where such a picture would be considered a threat, but that is not America. And I hope that the USA never becomes like those countries.

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Does it constitute a possible threat? It seems it does. Does it constitute a possible death threat? It seems so. Enough to convince law enforcement to pay people a visit. That has been my point from the beginning. When I first responded to you, you were saying a picture is not a death threat. It does in fact seem there are plenty of cases were pictures, photos and blogs were enough for the authorities to consider possible death threats. Again, in the post I responded to, which you wrote, you were wrong.

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both the cases I sited it did. Enough for the people to be questioned.

I am a member of an organization that works with law enforcement on high tech crime. The questioning, whenever law enforcement decides to pay a visit, is done to determine whether a threat exists since the picture alone does not constitute a legal threat -- which has been my point from the beginning.

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You are still mistaken.

But a picture alone does not constitute a legal threat.

In both the cases I sited it did. Enough for the people to be questioned. In addition, the FBI has been questioning people who have criticized local congressman in their blogs amongst others. Again, take a shot yourself. Remember to include your name and contact info so they can get in touch with you.

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Try it and see. If nothing else, you will get to see what it is like to be interogated.

I thought the picture under discussion was of Palin. No law enforcement will interrogate for that. When the president, VP, or foreign leader is involved, the Secret Service will check things out. But a picture alone does not constitute a legal threat.

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Sorry, you are completely mistaken. If that is your answer, you do not know exactly what law enforcement will do. Try it and see. If nothing else, you will get to see what it is like to be interogated.

A Los Angeles Times cartoonist got a visit from the US Secret Service in 2003.

In 2005, a student got a visit from the Secret Service when photos developed at a Wal-mart revealed a photo of Bush with a red tack in the head and the student's thumbs down visible in the photo.

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What do you think the reaction of law inforcement will be?

I know exactly what law enforcement will do: They will carefully look at the forum or website for words that indicate the intent behind the picture. A picture displayed alone does not cross the legal line to be considered as a threat.

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Okay. Let me amend my suggestion to suggest you place such a picture in a public forum such as the internet where it can be seen and including your contact information. What do you think the reaction of law inforcement will be?

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Okay, then may I suggest you send such a picture to an elective official you dislike.

You make a very important distinction. An artist can draw a picture for any number of reasons, including for their own amusement. To send such a picture to someone has a purpose and intent that the picture, on its own, does not have.

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I genuinely feel embarrassed to inform you that a picture is not a death threat.

Okay, then may I suggest you send such a picture to an elective official you dislike. Make sure to put your name and address on it and see what kind of reaction you get from law inforcement officials.

On topic: Glad Gabby Giffords is improving. I hope she continues to get well and that her assailant at least gets life.

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picture that has a gun pointed at a persons head isn't a threat? Not even an implied one? Ok, I'll create a picture of a Obama, with a gun pointed at his head. Still not a threat?

The pictures you describe, while not threats themselves, could certainly contribute to someone acting upon their own interpretation of what the picture suggests. A person who frequently draws those kinds of pictures I would regard as someone to keep a watch on, and guns away from.

the main point is that the examples coming from Malkin, while reprehensible, do not represent anything near mainstream liberal/Democratic politics. We don't find Democrats talking about "second amendment remedies" and wanting their constituents "armed and dangerous." The overwhelming proportion of that violence-suggesting rhetoric comes right out of the Republican and Tea Parties.

So what you're saying is, that any example of anti homosexual behavior, is right wing?

The example given was of a person who went into a church because he read of its liberal leanings and started to blow away people for their political beliefs. The shooter hated gays and liberals. It was his hatred of liberals that made him a right-winger, and your overlooking what is clearly obvious in the story, and trying to distort it to being only "anti-homosexual behavior," makes for very low credibility. Upon seeing this, I seriously doubt your ability to look at any story and relate it accurately.

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I genuinely feel embarrassed to inform you that a picture is not a death threat.

A picture that has a gun pointed at a persons head isn't a threat? Not even an implied one? Ok, I'll create a picture of a Obama, with a gun pointed at his head. Still not a threat? I want you on record as saying that merely pictures of a person with guns pointed at their heads are not threats. Regardless of who they are. So that when some loon does do that, I will simply be able to state, that Yabits believes this is not a threat.

No signs. No posters. No non-political workplace killings. Real examples of right wing violence taken out on those they consider their political enemies.

So what you're saying is, that any example of anti homosexual behavior, is right wing? Hate to break it to you, but theres people on the left who oppose homosexual behavior as well. Look at Prop 8 in California, one of the most liberal states in the country. A whole hell of a lot of libs voted against the homosexual agenda. This isn't the only example of this. People tend to be all over the spectrum, and you can't simply say this is right wing, thats left wing. Being anti-homosexaul doesn't make you right wing. Being anti-abortion doesn't make you right wing either. Nor does being pro-choice make you a left winger. For that matter, to bring it back on topic a bit, being pro-gun doesn't make you either right or left. There are a hell of a lot of Dems who strongly support gun rights. Including one of your favorites, Dirty Harry himself!

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The very first picture on it. My gosh Yabits

I genuinely feel embarrassed to inform you that a picture is not a death threat.

No, thats all peaches and cream, no implied threats there.

It is neither peaches and cream NOR a threat.

are you by any chance referring to that nutcase professor who went and murdered her co-workers?

Workplace killings are all too common in the United States. None of them, however, including this one, can be considered political acts since the victims were not attacked for their political views.

please provide links to your so called list that shows evidence of right wing violence.

Unlike your lists with non-existent victims, the list I have is quite real. Search on "Cops say church shooting suspect hated gays and liberals" and you'll get a Fox news link to merely one of many examples over the past 3 years. Over 20 dead and over 40 seriously wounded in cases just like that one.

No signs. No posters. No non-political workplace killings. Real examples of right wing violence taken out on those they consider their political enemies.

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the list contains absolutely no evidende of death threats against Palin.

Did you even bother to look at the list? The very first picture on it. My gosh Yabits, how far are you willing to go to ignore the proof. I suppose making up posters with a gun pointed at Palins head just doesn't count in your book. Or abort Palin bumper stickers. No, thats all peaches and cream, no implied threats there. Then theres all the vile stuff pointed at Bush... You want to talk evidence. Sorry, but put it simply, you lose.

On the other hand, the list over the past 3 years shows over 20 people KILLED and over 40 seriously injured by right-wing extremists. Malkin has to play a clown act with her long list of phony issues.

Wait, are you by any chance referring to that nutcase professor who went and murdered her co-workers? You do realize she was just another left wing clown. Oh, and that idiot who flew a plane into a building in Florida, sure enough, just another left wing loon. Betcha he'd get along real well with Obama. Theres tons of examples of left wing violence, please provide links to your so called list that shows evidence of right wing violence. This, I can't wait to see!

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That list has tons of stuff. Everything from the vicious hatefilled lefts attacks on Palin, including death threats,

the list contains absolutely no evidende of death threats against Palin. Most importantly, the list indicates ZERO people killed and ZERO people seriously injured by these so-called left-wing haters. Yes, a cardboard cutout was damaged. (Oooooh, the humanity!) And salad dressing and a pie were thrown. (LOL!)

On the other hand, the list over the past 3 years shows over 20 people KILLED and over 40 seriously injured by right-wing extremists. Malkin has to play a clown act with her long list of phony issues.

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yabits - Malkin is only credible to the right-wing choir she preaches to. She relies only on tiny pieces of a whole picture that she carefully selects.

Rather than get my "facts" from a single source who happens to be a well-known, biased, supporter of the far right, I prefer to find out what the more complete picture is by collecting data from different viewpoints.

Wow. Apparently Malkin gets her "facts" from police reports, various DNC supporters campaign posters, T-shirts, buttons and bumper stickers, actual videos of Obama supporters attacking conservatives, actual videos of "progressive" Obama supporters calling for the death or injury of anyone who dares to disagree with Obama's version of hope and change.

It certainly looks like there is plenty of evidence of left-wing violence and hate-mongers.

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Malkin is only credible to the right-wing choir she preaches to. She relies only on tiny pieces of a whole picture that she carefully selects.

Carefully selecting articles of 'credible' media sources like CNN, FoxNews, and AP, and posting links to the stories described therin. Somehow thats presenting a biased view? No, she makes her own point of view very obvious, and is unapologetic for it. However her sources are almost always unimpeachable.

Besides, the list that you promised was supposed to contain a large number of people who have been injured or killed by left wing "hate-mongers" over the past three years. Malkin's list is definitely not that.

Sorry, you wanted the complete list? Sure thing. Happy to oblige.

michellemalkin dot com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

That list has tons of stuff. Everything from the vicious hatefilled lefts attacks on Palin, including death threats, and hope of rape, to actual assaults on individuals who are not in the public eye, by SEIU thugs, and other leftwing extremists with whom Obama is so closely associated with.

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Like anyone she is capable of looking at the facts, and pointing out what doesn't make sense.

Malkin is only credible to the right-wing choir she preaches to. She relies only on tiny pieces of a whole picture that she carefully selects.

Rather than get my "facts" from a single source who happens to be a well-known, biased, supporter of the far right, I prefer to find out what the more complete picture is by collecting data from different viewpoints. I do not dislike Malkin personally, but simply know that she's not a credible source for facts.

Besides, the list that you promised was supposed to contain a large number of people who have been injured or killed by left wing "hate-mongers" over the past three years. Malkin's list is definitely not that.

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hoserfella - except for the nutjobs who still cowardly suggest she deserved the bullet to the head for daring to improve the country

Who suggested that? I've never read, seen or heard any comments like that.

If you seriously don't know, you havent been reading or listening to those who say with faux concern; "Terrible thing that happenend, BUT..." Not a few on this thread as well.

Who "specifically" suggested that "she deserved the bullet to the head". You're the only one who has mentioned this.

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The person pushing the list, Michelle Malkin, is in no position to accuse bias. The examples on the Palin "blood libel" discussion comes from daily newspapers and police reports.

Actually, she is. Like anyone she is capable of looking at the facts, and pointing out what doesn't make sense. Sure she is partisan, but what she posted there was incontrovertible evidence of bias in the media. Her being biased herself does not change the facts at all. Your dislike of her as an intelligent, articulate, well reasoned woman, who has received repeated and numerous death threats from the left, for daring to speak her mind, is noted as well.

The apparent acceptance of making light of political violence has, unfortunately, permeated the culture of what used to pass for reasoned conservatism. As has the blindness and complete denial of the problem.

The culture of denial and blame your neighbor is alive and well. As is the culture of victimhood by those responsible for the crime.

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you seriously don't know, you havent been reading or listening to those who say with faux concern; "Terrible thing that happenend, BUT..."

As a well-known, right-wing pundit has written, referring to a very moderate Republican, Lincoln Chaffee, (who later had to leave his party): "They shot the wrong Lincoln..."

The apparent acceptance of making light of political violence has, unfortunatly, permeated the culture of what used to pass for reasoned conservatism. As has the blindness and complete denial of the problem.

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arrestpaul - hoserfella - yabits- except for the nutjobs who still cowardly suggest she deserved the bullet to the head for daring to improve the country

.

Who suggested that? I've never read, seen or heard any comments like that.

If you seriously don't know, you havent been reading or listening to those who say with faux concern; "Terrible thing that happenend, BUT..." Not a few on this thread as well.

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In point of fact, what it mostly contains, is a list of evidence demonstrating the obvious bias of the media

One more thing: the list that you promised was as follows...

I can give you a much greater list of those who have fallen victim to left wing hate mongers.

So, what the list actually contains is a list of victims from right-wingers that a right-winger tries to spin away as "media bias."

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You're saying the list contains proof of right wing violence?

Incontrovertably.

In point of fact, what it mostly contains, is a list of evidence demonstrating the obvious bias of the media.

The person pushing the list, Michelle Malkin, is in no position to accuse bias. The examples on the Palin "blood libel" discussion comes from daily newspapers and police reports.

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The "list" you provided actually contains more evidence of right-wing violence, not left-wing. Therefore, you have failed completely.

Really? You're saying the list contains proof of right wing violence? In point of fact, what it mostly contains, is a list of evidence demonstrating the obvious bias of the media. In spinning the story to suggest despite all evidence to the contrary, that the right is somehow to blame. Rather like you've been doing on this thread. In saying what you did, you actually proved you couldn't be bothered to follow the link and read whats written there. In doing so, you really are failing, at life, as well as in this thread. Truly I'm sorry you prefer to remain blind to the truth. Sorry, but you lose this round. Better luck on the next thread though.

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And what would describe the people who broadcast hatred and invective that certainly reaches the minds of many borderline mental cases?

Bad argument. You are starting to get into semantics. In that case you had better ban heavy metal music, violent video games, movies, and TV.

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I don't believe that many of my fellow Americans would agree that the luxury of demonizing opponents with violent rhetoric and demagoguery is worth the price of the harm done to people like Representative Giffords and the other victims of Tucson. Some Americans might feel it is worth it. The vast majority would not.

You are making some very far reaching assumptions about my previous post. Read my post again.

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Done and done.

The "list" you provided actually contains more evidence of right-wing violence, not left-wing. Therefore, you have failed completely.

My list is on one of the most recent posts on the "Palin-blood libel" thread. Why not go there and comment on it, since it pertains to THAT topic, rather than this one?

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Saying that you can and actually providing examples are two vastly different things. I won't hold my breath.

michellemalkin dot com/2011/01/14/blame-righty-a-condensed-history/

Done and done. This is just a condensed version of a much, much greater list. You want the full one? Happy to provide that link as well. So, I've provided a link proving the vile, despicable, and downright evil left are indeed violent hatemongers. Now you go. Wheres your list proving the right is as well?

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I do find it interesting that the party casting blame and asking for more civil discourse just this week equated those opposed to Obamacare to NAZIs.

Not quite. "The party" did not do that. A single individual, Democratic Representative, Steven Cohen, who is Jewish, made that claim that spreading lies and false information about the health care bill (and so many other issues) seems to tie all-too-many on the Republican side to the propaganda minister of that regime.

He soon apologized for the remarks and the analogy.

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Please, name some

I've got a long list, sadly. You will find some of the examples on the "blood libel" discussion since it pertains to that topic.

I can give you a much greater list of those who have fallen victim to left wing hate mongers

Saying that you can and actually providing examples are two vastly different things. I won't hold my breath.

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I agree the political rhetoric in the US is a bit over the top, but I don't blame incidents like the Gifford case on it. The shooter is a nut.

I do find it interesting that the party casting blame and asking for more civil discourse just this week equated those opposed to Obamacare to NAZIs.

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there are at least dozen other examples of Americans who have fallen victim to attackers whose politics were overtly tied to Tea-Party style right-wing politics.

Please, name some. I can give you a much greater list of those who have fallen victim to left wing hate mongers. Guess we should shut off all the news networks except fox to protect people from the vile despicable left wing hate thats constantly being spewed forth from these cesspits of left wing lunacy.

Hehe! Come on Yabits, why do you insist on pushing this silliness? Anyone with even a speck of impartiality can see that the vast majority of hatred and violence comes from the left. The right of course is not innocent. But the reality is, theres loons on both sides. It just seems that the left wing loons are more willing to engage in actual violence.

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hoserfella - yabits- except for the nutjobs who still cowardly suggest she deserved the bullet to the head for daring to improve the country.

Who suggested that? I've never read, seen or heard any comments like that.

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yabits - To honor Representative Giffords and support President Obama's call for greater civility, let all Americans make the following commitment:

Politics should not be viewed as a form of warfare.

Political opponents should not be treated as enemies.

Sez the losing side, hoping to gain a little time to regroup.

Politics ain't beanbag. Giffords knew how politics is a rough and tumble sport. Loughner's mental condition caused him to beleive that shooting Giffords would make the voices in his head stop. Loughner was and is crazy.

Giffords has a long recovery in front of her. I wish her well.

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yabits - And what would describe the people who broadcast hatred and invective that certainly reaches the minds of many borderline mental cases? While Loughner's mental condition makes it futile to pin any political philosophy on him......

Olbermann had no problems blaming everyone, especially those whos political speech disagreed with his, for the shooting of Giffords - except Loughner of course. No facts required, just pure hate-mongering. Which explains why Olbermann was finally fired.

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And only a loser would try to portray him as anything other than a mental case...

And what would describe the people who broadcast hatred and invective that certainly reaches the minds of many borderline mental cases? While Loughner's mental condition makes it futile to pin any political philosophy on him, there are at least dozen other examples of Americans who have fallen victim to attackers whose politics were overtly tied to Tea-Party style right-wing politics.

I believe we owe it to Representative Giffords and all these victims to stop trying to demonize political opponents.

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"I don't believe that many of my fellow Americans would agree that the luxury of demonizing opponents with violent rhetoric and demagoguery is worth the price of the harm done to people like Representative Giffords and the other victims of Tucson"

the shooter Jared loughner was a 9-11 Truther; he hated George Bush the same way most so called Liberals do; he did way too many drugs and he listed the Communist Mainifesto as some of his favorite reading. In short, he was a loser. And only a loser would try to portray him as anything other than a mental case who embraced conspiracy and sadly mainstream leftist nostrums as an excuses to shoot someone.

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They are more interested in raw emotional displays and demonizing people with opinions that differ from theirs.

I don't believe that many of my fellow Americans would agree that the luxury of demonizing opponents with violent rhetoric and demagoguery is worth the price of the harm done to people like Representative Giffords and the other victims of Tucson. Some Americans might feel it is worth it. The vast majority would not.

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Political opponents should not be treated as enemies.

Nice try Yabits. I wish it were so, but it isnt. But the politicians are not to blame. They are just a reflection of the American public. Americans are very willing consumers of all the negative ads and chest thumping...they love it. It is what sells. Politicians will do whatever is effective to get elected. Negative and attack campaigns work. Seems to me, Americans are not very interested in rational, civil debate. They are more interested in raw emotional displays and demonizing people with opinions that differ from theirs.

American politics has turned into a circus talk show. But then again, that's what Americans love.

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I am looking forward to President Obama mentioning Representative Giffords during his state of the union message on Tuesday, as part of an overall message for the need to tone down the violent, extremist rhetoric that has marked the American political scene since 2007.

There are several examples given of more than 20 Americans killed and 40+ wounded on the "blood libel" discussion.

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I'm happy she's recovered enough to leave the hospital, but is it just me thats getting a bit tired from this story? Maybe its because I'm a news junkie, and watch Fox, CNN, and occasionally my local news. But this story has been on every single day, multiple times a day, with updates, and discussions etc. Its been done to death. Please, lets move on to the next topic.

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To honor Representative Giffords and support President Obama's call for greater civility, let all Americans make the following commitment:

Politics should not be viewed as a form of warfare. Political opponents should not be treated as enemies.
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yabits- except for the nutjobs who still cowardly suggest she deserved the bullet to the head for daring to improve the country.

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All Americans join in wishing Representative Giffords continued progress to a full recovery.

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RomeoRamell, borscht - classy statements.

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To RR

Because much of the house made obama tone down the bill, Hence the hospital situation in the US borders on the criminal, where the poor and those with poor medical histories are regularily denied proper medical care.

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RR Under the current health care system she'd be dead. But she gets government health care available only to Congressional members (which the Republidopes will NOT repeal), so she might be okay.

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Under Obamacare, she'd probably still be awaiting admittance into the hospital.

RR

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Good news on a long road to recovery.

I hope and wonder though if the other victims of the shooting are receiving the same level of medical care?

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I am very happy to see this news.

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