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Ariz shooting suspect appears in court; Giffords responds to verbal commands

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A military official in Washington said the Army rejected Loughner in 2008 because he failed a drug test. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because privacy laws prevent the military from disclosing such information about an individual’s application.

Total hypocrisy from the persecutors of Wikileaks.

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A skinhead with a copy of Mein Kampf killed a Jewish congressman and a judge.

Giffords is Jewish. You got that part correct. She is alive. Let us not bury her just yet please. And she is a Congress woman. The judge that Lougnher shot and killed was a Republican. He had come from a church service to speak to Giffords about Arizona's illegal immigration problem.

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Imagine how it must have felt to be Giffords during this past campaign season: guns showing up at her rallies, her offices vandalized, death threats and Palin's map as the finishing touch. Imagine how her family must felt. It will be interesting to see how long the Republican Party can go without addressing the Palin problem.

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Since this is a clear cut case, why waste money on trials, appeals and a $20,000 a pop electric chair? Just $1 worth of bullets to the head should do the trick.

See how he likes it.

May his victims R.I.P and their families comforted

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A skinhead with a copy of Mein Kampf killed a Jewish congressman and a judge. And Palin today used a term that has been used historically as a call for pogrom.

That is the story that everyone is missing.

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Anyway, a man, a right-wing kook, was arrested for phoning death threats to Senator Bennett and his staff. He was arrested the day BEFORE Giffords was shot.

I read several articles after doing a search, and found nothing to indicate that Davis is "right-wing", other than Bennett is a Democrat. All I saw on Davis was that he described himself as a schizophrenic, and that he complained about his social security benefits. As with Loughner, I think you're too eager to consider him as "right-wing" with so little to go on, and I think it would be interesting to find out why you do that.

But I'm glad you brought it up, because it highlights the difference in how authorities in Colorado handled Davis, and how Sheriff Dupnik handled Loughner. Reportedly, Dupnik has been talking victims of Loughner's threats out of filing charges, telling them he was getting mental health attention when he was not. Had Dupnik done his job as proscribed by Arizona law, Loughner would not have been able to legally buy a gun, and might have even been in jail or a mental institution where he couldn't shoot anyone.

But this is where it gets weird.

For your benefit (and the benefit of the moderators), I want you to know know that what I'm about to write, I write with no malice in my heart, and no intention of ridicule at your expense:

I sincerely think you're searching for answers that aren't there as a means of coping with this atrocity. This is a horrible event, and it's difficult to keep ourselves from visualizing it in our mind's eye. The tragic and senseless loss of life, which could have been prevented, hits anyone with a conscience very hard. For me, the worst part is the death of that innocent 9-year-old girl. It makes me angry and sick, and brings me to tears just thinking about it.

The way you're reacting to this is nothing new. It's just how some people cope. We (as a society) have seen this after the deaths of JFK, RFK, MLK Jr., Lady Diana, as well as the Oklahoma City bombing, the 9/11 attacks, and many other tragic events. Some people try in vain to find sense in the senseless, and conspiracy theories (and Oliver Stone movies) care born. As a temporary means of coping, nobody can fault you for it. But please do take a step back from it after a while, okay? Hopefully a little time and some distance from this will help you find whatever it is you need to cope with this horrible and senseless atrocity.

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Klein2:

I read a lot. So what?

I read a lot too. But there's huge a difference between reading or watching something and calling it one of your favorites. Loughner has called The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and Loose Change some of his favorite works. Tea Party folks just don't do that.

Loughtner was really big on finding "the real meanings of words." Did you miss that hint?

He had issues with grammar. I didn't miss that hint. Perhaps we should pass some "grammar control" legislation? It's not like the Generation Text crowd is using it anyway. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

I really want to hear what he has to say.

I doubt it will make much sense to the sane.

I want to know what is on his computer and where he got his ideas.

I suspect we'll know that in time.

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Madverts, glad we can agree on something.

But could you please refrain from calling me a young man, since you obviously have no idea how old I am? Thanks.

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For once young man I agree with you and the death penalty. Fast-track trial and straight to the needle.

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"Jared Loughner"

This crackpot has no right to live.

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More bizarre.

The man arrested in Colorado for threatening Sen. Bennett was away from his residence for two months before returning to Denver shortly before this incident.

Loughtner was reportedly in the company of some older guy in the month leading up to this shooting.

Is it possible that this guy met with Loughtner, planned the threats and attacks together, and then separated to carry out these attacks? Was the Denver man's "I killed that woman" statement a miscue?

Are they both patsies?

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I think you're giving him too much "credit". My own theory is that he was obsessed with the woman, she probably didn't smile at him or something. In light of his greatest hits he's probably going to life or the needle a virgin.

Despite my own disgust with shrieking right-wing hacks in the US, this guy is just a crank. Though at least the screaming policies of nutters like Palin are rightfully being scrutinized.

Heh, don't retreat re-load. Unless your Glock jams...

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Something extremely bizarre to report. In Colorado, Ken Salazar gave up his seat to Michael Bennett, who was elected despite being on Palin's crosshair list. He is actually the first on Palin's list to be threatened, Giffords was the second. We have to wait to find out who the third is.

Anyway, a man, a right-wing kook, was arrested for phoning death threats to Senator Bennett and his staff. He was arrested the day BEFORE Giffords was shot. But this is where it gets weird.

Last Thursday, during one of his phone calls, he said, "I killed that woman." Nobody but nobody has figured out what he meant by that. I have my own theories.

Something else to think about. Giffords apparently kept her Glock with her, and Roll, the judge, usually carried his handgun. How did Loughner know to attack them when NEITHER of them was armed? She was not armed because she was at the event and HE was not armed because he was coming from church. How did that happen? And if Loughner was so crazy crazy, how did he plan this so well? She did not do events so often that he could have been so sure she was unarmed. And rather than have somebody else who might be armed with with her as a guest, Giffords had a nine year old girl with her. Loughner knew that they were defenseless. But how could he know in advance? The event was just beginning when he started shooting. Look at the timeline.

Weird stuff.

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Klein,

I imagine he slapped the cost of the Glock on the Fleecer card.

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Super Lib. I really want to hear what he has to say. I want to know what he was doing during that loner month. I want to know how an unemployed nobody gets 500+ bucks cash together to go buy a Glock, clip, and ammo. I want to know what is on his computer and where he got his ideas.

We pretty well got all of this from every crazy shooter but Oswald.

If we don't get more information, the Oliver Stone will have to make a movie, and we don't want that, do we?

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"Wake up. His favorite movies and books are staples in the library of leftists like yourself."

Yeah. Like Peter Pan and Aesop's Fables. What a commie. I have tons of books. I read a lot. So what? I have a lot of your favorites too. Don't right wing kooks read? I read EVERYTHING. My reading list is much much more dangerous than old Uncle Fester's. Doesn't make me a dangerous person though. My most pink by far is Das Kapital, which you could not make it through, believe me. I have read Mein Kampf, which is an easy read. Hitler made it that way so that any old fool could skim it and get the gist. Studs Terkel, WORKING is very pink. Gore Vidal is pink. Chomsky and Roald Dahl are pretty pink. But you can balance that stuff out. I have a lot of military history (Dick Winters died yesterday. I cried.), Heinlein, Hemingway and many biographies of "patriots". Several Bibles of different sorts.

"And on the same day, 90 million registered gun owners in America didn't shoot anybody."

With a big enough clip, it really only takes one to ruin your day, right tech?

"affected by a campaign ad he likely didn't read? After all, if he saw the ad, why didn't he attend the event?"

How do you know he didn't? Apparently, he attended political events. Besides, even if he didn't, SOMEBODY did. Perhaps the next shooter?

WhiteHawk, looking at your other comments, it looks like most of what I wrote went way over your head. Just forget it. Read someone else's posts. But as far as "provide specific examples" please have a look at the list I refer to. Threats and vandalism against a guy with four small children is somehow one bit of sadness that stands out. The pattern is astonishing.

And you know what, it occurs to me. A lot of the right fringe is saying "What about rhetoric from the left?" Well, hey, we have a body count to keep score now, don't we? The rhetoric from the left is limp and flaccid. That from the right incites people. Same words in a few cases... very very different effects. John McCain knew that. The Tea Party doesn't know it or does not care. Loughtner was really big on finding "the real meanings of words." Did you miss that hint?

"Would your neighbors describe you as a "troubled loner", by any chance?"

No. They wouldn't. They would say, "He seemed like a regular guy." But thanks for bringing it up. It makes me cry. Then I wish for my blankie. Then I get this urge to go buy a Glock with a big big clip. I could use it to go collect party favors.

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

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Moderator: We have already asked you once to stop posting these long, rambling answers to multiple posters. You must also tone down your rhetoric because in some cases, you are being impolite to other posters. Consider this your final warning.

My apologies Moderator, I did not see the previous warning. Probably because I was on this page instead of the other one.

I apologize for the long posts. I will break them up in the future.

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Molenir:

He's one guy, and sure a nut, but to say Dupnik wasn't doing his job, and that he knew this guy was a loon and failed because he didn't prematurely lock him up, is simply nonsense.

People who are determined to be a threat to themselves and/or others can be institutionalized against their will. A county Sheriff can certainly get the wheels in motion. Instead, it's coming out that Dupnik had been convincing those targeted by Loughner not to file complaints or press charges. Had they done so, Loughner would have had at least a restraining order against him, and would not have been able to legally buy a gun.

Taka313:

Stay classy and incorrect tea party.

I suppose you thought it was classy when John Edwards used his wife's cancer as a fund-raising tool. While fathering a baby with his mistress.

I agree that it's not the best way to seek donations, but this part...

“It is quite clear that liberals are trying to exploit this shooting for their own political benefit, and they used deception and dishonesty to try and smear all of us and our beliefs. You know what the truth is? The truth is that the shooter, Jared Loughner is the one responsible for this atrocity. But liberals are trying to place the blame on society for embracing the tea party movement.”

...is quite true. I'm surprised you posted it. So what are you going to say when Democrat PACs start using Loughner as a fund-raising tool? Because they will.

Klein2:

But his actions show he was more affected by this, from Giffords' Tea Party Opponent, Jesse Kelly.

Really? Exactly how did his actions show that Loughner - who lists The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf as two his favorite books, Loose Change as one his favorite movies, and whose friends say he was "hard-left" - was affected by a campaign ad he likely didn't read? After all, if he saw the ad, why didn't he attend the event?

Seriously, your desperate cherry-picking is blatant and sad.

If you are Tea Party and you want to remove a Jewish woman from office, you have options OTHER than voting and fund-raisers, is that right?

That event WAS a fundraiser.

Palin pulled that list quickly, BUT denied that it had any effect on anyone who might have viewed it. Then why pull it?

Why did Moulitsas pull his bullseye ad that had Giffords on it too?

I will say again that I don't think Palin is responsible, she is irresponsible.

It's quite telling that you think she's the only one irresponsible.

Until we know much more about his motives, I will believe that he is a skinhead who wanted to kill liberal Jewish people.

Well, Loughner apparently believed what he wanted, so you believe what you want. The difference is... well there is no difference. You've already demonstrated that you will continue believing what you despite the lack of evidence to support and despite the evidence contradicting your beliefs.

And what's with your obsession with Jewish people? I haven't seen anywhere in the news that Giffords is Jewish, so how did you know that?

I have never seen a tract or publication of the JBS advocating violence, but I HAVE seen ones that recommend the overthrow of the US government and monetary system. I have seen similar rhetoric from Tea Party members. Even those posting here.

Through voting. And voting not diluted with SEIU election corruption, please. I've also seen calls for overthrowing the government - with violence, including the death of the president and vice-president. Those were at Leftist "peace" rallies in San Francisco, however.

James Fallows pointed me to a site run by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ...that is a timeline of threats and actions made by ultra-right wing groups.

Did he also compile a time-line of threat and actions made by ultra-left-wing groups? Violent actions not involving guns? Oh, that's right: According to the CtSGV, there is no violence without guns.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence... yeah, no agenda there. No wonder you're refusing to consider that Loughner isn't a right-wing Tea Party-type.

If the right is not involved in this, why does it not denounce or "refudiate" ALL violence that is politically motivated instead of threatening "second amendment remedies" if it does not win elections?

Provide specific examples of "the right" threatening "second amendment remedies". And just when is the Left going to denounce ALL the violence that they have perpetrated?

And why make such a quick assumption that this shooter "could not possibly be linked to right wing causes" instead of doing some soul-searching and admitting that the Tea Party have acted like thugs on plenty of occasions?

Provide specific examples of the Tea Party acting like thugs. And in this case, it's better to do fact-checking than soul-searching.

Out of all the Tea Party rallies, the only incidence of violence has been a group of pro-Obama SEIU thugs beating up Kenneth Gladney. At a party for Bobby Jindal, a young couple wearing Palin buttons were attacked and savagely beaten (the young woman's leg was broken in five places) by Leftist demonstrators.

To me, it all adds up. This is the Reichstag fire. The immediate attempt to blame this on the left by the loudspeakers of the right shows exactly what it is. The right will avoid culpability, but let the intimidation against Democrats stand. Gun control efforts will fail, and gun intimidation will continue. Loughner is only the latest hammer to come out of the far-right's toolbox. Expect it to get worse.

Congratulations, you now sound like Loughner.

Loughner has been obsessed with Giffords since at least 2007. You know what we didn't have in 2007? The Tea Party. You know what else? Nobody outside of Alaska knew who Sarah Palin was in 2007, which would in all likelihood include Loughner.

And now you're obsessed with Palin and the Tea Party. And Jewish people, for some odd reason. Would your neighbors describe you as a "troubled loner", by any chance?

manfromamerica:

And any Democrat during the Bush administration. And any socialist movement. And any anti-war protest. And anti-globalization radicals. And left-wing protesters on JT. And Saturday Night Live skits. And MSNBC commentary.

And G20 rioters.

SuperLib:

The guy should be locked up and subjected to psychological experiments for the rest of his life to help us figure out what went wrong in his mind, then hopefully that data can be used to give us warning signs about others in the future.

I think we already have the answers. It's just that people are afraid of looking like "big meanies" for locking someone away.

Moderator: We have already asked you once to stop posting these long, rambling answers to multiple posters. You must also tone down your rhetoric because in some cases, you are being impolite to other posters. Consider this your final warning.

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If Loughner somehow escapes the death penalty, could he at least be made to work his fingers to the bone to help pay for Giffords' medical treatment?

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And on the same day, 90 million registered gun owners in America didn't shoot anybody.

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Jared Loughner, head shaved, a cut on his right temple and his hands cuffed, stared vacantly at a packed courtroom Monday and sat down. His attorney, who defended “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski, whispered to him.

Kaczynski's lawyer? I believe she is a Democrat. The only political donation of hers on record is to Democrat Barbara Boxer. Another gaping hole in the stupid conspiracy about organized "tea party" violence.

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now the leftists are using the deaths for money.

That can be only be expected when its leaders say: Never let a crisis go to waste.

RR

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The guy should be locked up and subjected to psychological experiments for the rest of his life to help us figure out what went wrong in his mind, then hopefully that data can be used to give us warning signs about others in the future.

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ahh, now the leftists are using the deaths for money. Interesting.

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"And Vt. independent senator Bernie Sanders, who votes with Democrats, has sent out a fundraising appeal that cites the shooting of Giffords in his pitch for money."

Yeah. It is a great fundraising idea. It just requires that several Democrats die, that's all. I know a lot of people who are giving today and they sure as heck did not need to be asked.

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The left is trying so hard to twist this tragedy - "don't let a crisis go to waste", right Rahm?

It's tasteless and pathetic.

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I will write again in response to someone who thinks that Giffords and others were not armed because of their "ideology". The statement angered me because it makes no difference, and it was wrong anyway. The statement seemed to imply that people who are "too stupid" to own guns are naturally going to be shot. What we all know is that it makes no difference. And in fact, both of the political targets were shooters themselves.

Giffords has stated publicly that she owns and fires a 9 mm Glock. She was not packing it that day.

The judge was also not armed. Someone who knew him believes that he was not armed because he was coming to the event directly from church.

The nine year old girl was also not armed, but that probably had little to do with ideology.

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He spoke of hatred of government and government officials, which is very typical of Tea Party rhetoric.

And any Democrat during the Bush administration. And any socialist movement. And any anti-war protest. And anti-globalization radicals. And left-wing protesters on JT. And Saturday Night Live skits. And MSNBC commentary.

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Klein2 -

Wake up. His favorite movies and books are staples in the library of leftists like yourself.

It's shameless the leftists twist this tragedy for a political vendetta.

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TWO of the people on Palin's gun-sight list (Bennett and Giffords) were threatened or assaulted on two consecutive days, resulting in deaths, arrests, and Federal charges of violent people targeting elected representatives, both Democrats, for their political and other beliefs.

Palin pulled that list quickly, BUT denied that it had any effect on anyone who might have viewed it. Then why pull it? Why make excuses? I will say again that I don't think Palin is responsible, she is irresponsible. I will also say that it is the guilty who run and make up defenses instead of standing behind their actions.

Authorities have already stated that Giffords was the intended target. He described his act as "assassination" before he did it. To me, his actions and motives jibe perfectly with the Turner Diaries, an anti-semitic novel in which Jewish people, government officials, specifically judges and elected officials, are targeted during a xenophobic insurrection to overthrow a US government that is non-Christian (Obama is a muslim?), non-democratic (Obama is not a US citizen?). He spoke of hatred of government and government officials, which is very typical of Tea Party rhetoric. Until we know much more about his motives, I will believe that he is a skinhead who wanted to kill liberal Jewish people.

His internet sites included rants against the Federal reserve and specie-monetarism, which are particular talking points of the John Birch Society and other right wing groups. I have never seen a tract or publication of the JBS advocating violence, but I HAVE seen ones that recommend the overthrow of the US government and monetary system. I have seen similar rhetoric from Tea Party members. Even those posting here.

James Fallows pointed me to a site run by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ...that is a timeline of threats and actions made by ultra-right wing groups. It includes, now, the cases of Senator Bennett and Rep. Giffords. Go look at it. It shows a pattern of violence and intimidation by people with guns against duly elected officials.

The face of Loughner, who does look like Uncle Fester of the Addams' Family, is the new face of American politics. If the right is not involved in this, why does it not denounce or "refudiate" ALL violence that is politically motivated instead of threatening "second amendment remedies" if it does not win elections? The time line I cite above shows that many such threats were made during elections. And why make such a quick assumption that this shooter "could not possibly be linked to right wing causes" instead of doing some soul-searching and admitting that the Tea Party have acted like thugs on plenty of occasions? Even John McCain thinks so. They DO protest too much.

To me, it all adds up. This is the Reichstag fire. The immediate attempt to blame this on the left by the loudspeakers of the right shows exactly what it is. The right will avoid culpability, but let the intimidation against Democrats stand. Gun control efforts will fail, and gun intimidation will continue. Loughner is only the latest hammer to come out of the far-right's toolbox. Expect it to get worse.

As the John Birch Society has noted, when one wins power by conspiracy, what is it? Well, none dare call it conspiracy.

Please don't believe me. I am not leading anyone. But everyone, open your eyes.

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Maybe he thought this was a way for him to participate in saving America, the Tea Party way.

The leftist propaganda squad is out in full force. Tasteless...

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Laughner's favorite movies are "Zeitgeist" and "Loose Change". His favorite book is the Communist Manifesto.

Tea Party?? He's a lefty.

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"Heh, the left's shriek that Loughner is a "tea party fundraising tool" is falling apart pretty quickly."

Hmm. But his actions show he was more affected by this, from Giffords' Tea Party Opponent, Jesse Kelly.

"Kelly's campaign event website has a stern-looking photo of the former Marine in military garb holding his weapon. It includes the headline: "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."

Yeah. If you are Tea Party and you want to remove a Jewish woman from office, you have options OTHER than voting and fund-raisers, is that right? Loughner wanted to get into the Army. Maybe he thought this was a way for him to participate in saving America, the Tea Party way.

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Loughner made several death threats to people in the area, to his former college and even to bloggers. I think the sheriff, shamelessly partisan, is trying to cover up his negligence.

It is clear that the legacy media wants the Tea Party to be the only victim of this senseless tragedy.

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Taka,

Your article wasn't fact-checked at all by whoever wrote it.

The weekend shooting sparked accusations from liberal groups and pundits that he was motivated by the rhetoric from Tea Party members, although authorities say Loughner acted alone and was not part of a larger movement.

The original story here on JT about the shooting clearly states that was not the case at all......Read below

Authorities said the dead included U.S. District Judge John Roll, 63; Christina Greene, 9; Giffords aide Gabe Zimmerman, 30; Dorothy Morris, 76; Dorwin Stoddard, 76; and Phyllis Scheck, 79. Judge Roll had just stopped by to see his friend Giffords after attending Mass.

The sheriff blamed the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country, much of it occurring in Arizona.

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And Vt. independent senator Bernie Sanders, who votes with Democrats, has sent out a fundraising appeal that cites the shooting of Giffords in his pitch for money.

Stay classy, liberals.

RR

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Heh, the left's shriek that Loughner is a "tea party fundraising tool" is falling apart pretty quickly

Or not.

The Tea Party Express, a California-based conservative political action committee, sent out a letter to supporters Monday requesting donations in reaction to Saturday’s shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona that claimed six lives.

“It is quite clear that liberals are trying to exploit this shooting for their own political benefit, and they used deception and dishonesty to try and smear all of us and our beliefs,” the letter reads. “You know what the truth is? The truth is that the shooter, Jared Loughner is the one responsible for this atrocity. But liberals are trying to place the blame on society for embracing the tea party movement.”

The letter makes the case that the Tea Party movement has nothing to do with the alleged gunman, 22-year-old Jared Loughner. The weekend shooting sparked accusations from liberal groups and pundits that he was motivated by the rhetoric from Tea Party members, although authorities say Loughner acted alone and was not part of a larger movement.

“We have nothing to do with this awful, tragic event in Arizona,” the letter reads.

The group, which helped fund the Republican primary campaigns of Joe Miller in Alaska, Christine O’Donnell in Delaware and Sharron Angle in Nevada, ended the letter with a request for donations.

“We’re taking our country back through the ballot box and in the public square – through peaceful means,” the letter reads. “And we will prevail, because our ideas and ideals are stronger than the scare/smear/defame tactics of the leftists we face. We ask you to please stand with the Tea Party Express and show your support for our efforts. You can make a contribution online right now to the Tea Party Express – CLICK HERE TO CONTRIBUTE.”

Stay classy and incorrect tea party.

Taka

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he's been recruited as a tea party fundraising tool

One of the documents the FBI found in Loughner's home was a form letter from Giffords' office thanking him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event she hosted in Tucson back in 2007.

Heh, the left's shriek that Loughner is a "tea party fundraising tool" is falling apart pretty quickly.

RR

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You know, after you guys get a room, you should think about what it feels like to be wrongly accused of murder and terrorism. Maybe that is how a lot of Muslims in America feel these days.

I'm sorry, what exactly does this have to do with what I was saying? Or for that matter the topic at all?

runwithscissors - you are using an opinion poll to prove what a man was thinking? Don't you think you have pushed the boundaries of silliness quite enough in recent days?

Since you are so determined to insist, like others on the left, that its the evil speech by the right that causes violence, no doubt you'll also agree that violence on TV and in movies also plays a role, oh and lets not forget violent video games. Lets ban it all shall we? I mean if you are so determined to link the imaginary violent rhetoric from the right, while of course disregarding the much more violent rhetoric from the left, it only seems appropriate.

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The full might of the state media failed to convince US voters that ' vitriol ' played a part in the killing.

' Fifty-seven percent of respondents in a new CBS News poll said rhetoric is unrelated to the shooting, while 32 percent said they believe the two are connected… . '

Source:The Hill , quoting CBS.

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"Sail, I love you, and I often agree with you, but you're going too far here. He's one guy, and sure a nut, but to say Dupnik wasn't doing his job, and that he knew this guy was a loon and failed because he didn't prematurely lock him up, is simply nonsense. Admittedly it makes more sense then trying to link the guy to Palin and the Tea Party, but still, its out there."

You know, after you guys get a room, you should think about what it feels like to be wrongly accused of murder and terrorism. Maybe that is how a lot of Muslims in America feel these days.

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USARonin. People are buzzing about mens rea already. He clammed up and cited fifth amendment almost immediately. It appears that he was lucidly contacting old friends hours before the attack. I will stick with my initial impression.

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With a smirk like that -this guy could have made alot of money playing "The Joker" in the Batman movies. And after that there is always Celebrity Rehab with Dr Drew.

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"As we understand it, there have been law enforcement contacts with the individual where he made threats to kill," Dupnik said during a press conference Saturday evening. But he wouldn't say who those threats were aimed at.

Sail, I love you, and I often agree with you, but you're going too far here. He's one guy, and sure a nut, but to say Dupnik wasn't doing his job, and that he knew this guy was a loon and failed because he didn't prematurely lock him up, is simply nonsense. Admittedly it makes more sense then trying to link the guy to Palin and the Tea Party, but still, its out there.

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OK, I guess we shall now open this board up for postings from those who disagree with the death penalty. Anyone out there think this crime doesn't deserve a death sentence?

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runwithscissors:

" No. That was a supposition. And whether correct or not the violence and gun analogies in political ads still needs to stop, "

That was the meme from the start, and it was no coincidence. Go to Youtube, look for "Obama Needs Another Oklahoma City Bombing to Reconnect" (can´t post the address because the system does not allow that here), and you will find democrat advisor Mark Penn explaining exactly that.

The liberal media have been WAITING for some terrorist incident that they then could pen supposed republican hate speech, and this seemed to be it. So they all went ahead with the script, no matter of far-fetched.

Tough for them, in this case it simply does not fly, as hard as they try.

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sailwind,

I'm channeling my inner conservative. If this guy was Mexican or Muslim, that's what we'd be hearing. I was commenting on the fact that because he's a white guy, no one wants to bring race into bear.

As far as his tea party membership is concerned. Shit, maybe he wasn't before, but he's been recruited as a tea party fundraising tool already.

Stay classy tea party.

Taka

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Sarge said: My opinion is that Giffords' husband and the grieving family members of those killed should be on the firing squad at that lunatic Loughner's execution.

Do you imagine your opinion on that counts more than theirs? Did you ever think they don't want to be on that firing squad? Did you ever consider what it does to people to experience shooting someone to death? Did you ever consider what sort of message you are sending with that statement? Basically, you justify Loughner. If you say people can kill for justice, then people like Loughner will kill for their own sense of justice.

Are you reading this Skip? This is the usual short-sighted gung-ho sort of statement we get from pro-death people. It is an opinion and it gets its air time. But that does not stop it from being a very poor opinion.

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seem to believe things should work only in your world view with NO debate.

Complete strawman. I don't have a problem with debate. I have a problem with people who fail to see reason despite much debate.

You've decided what is and what is not a sound argument.

Yes, indeed. After much debating and listening. The pro-death people are lacking in so many ways. The excuses presented are poor. Frankly the debate is so old its beyond just having an opinion. There are those who have learned and those that have learned nothing. It might be a little different if we all had our own personal, everyday experiences with the death penalty. But we don't. It requires a capacity for higher level thinking, information gathering, and sorting out bias. Pro-death people generally prove they are not up to the task.

Let me just ask you a simple question and we can go from there. What is more important, money or principles?

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Looks like a tea partier to me. Maybe we should start rounding them all up.

Taka

You base that on what? Specifics please?

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Looks like a tea partier to me. Maybe we should start rounding them all up.

Taka

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Through all the hyperbole around the "tea party" and that Palin was somehow a factor in this tragedy, something that should have never been brought up by any responsible Public Official or the Media until the facts had become clearer as to who they had in custody was and his background, something got lost big time.

The total failure of the Pima county Sheriffs Department and its elected head Sheriff Clarence Dupnik to protect Tucsun's citizens. I believe he knew already who he had in custody and he knew his department had blown it and instead of cooling the rhetoric he inflamed it instead. I'm basing this on the following statements he gave on the 9th of January right after the shooting and as reported by NPR.

As reported He stated:

Loughner, 22, who is in law enforcement custody, lives near the scene of the shooting, which killed six people and injured at least a dozen others, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said there's reason to believe Loughner has "a mental issue" and described him as "unhinged."

I'll submit that he already knew that Loughner has "a mental issue" and was "unhinged" and that he also already knew he was capable of violence.

Because He states right after:

"As we understand it, there have been law enforcement contacts with the individual where he made threats to kill," Dupnik said during a press conference Saturday evening. But he wouldn't say who those threats were aimed at.

Because law enforcement already knew about this threat to the community and had dealt with Loughner before. And the Sheriff uses the word contact with an "s" at the end not indicating a single prior contact but at least two and more than likely multiple.

I'm having some serious, serious questions now about this mans conduct and what his real reasoning was by bringing inflammatory political posturing and debate into this tragic event. Deflection perhaps? Who knows at this point.......Be nice if the Media would finally get around to asking him what he really knew prior and why his department failed to act and protect the Congresswoman from an obvious known prior threat and nutcase, I'm asking myself if the Sheriff could have avoided this horrid event and why he choose to use it instead to voice his personal political opinion on "Talk Radio, Palin etc" instead.

If you Google...... Sheriff: Accused Shooter 'Unhinged,' Made Threats

You'll get the NPR story in full.

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""The opinions against the death penalty are far more sound than those for."

That's your opinion. My opinion is that Giffords' husband and the grieving family members of those killed should be on the firing squad at that lunatic Loughner's execution.

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The opinions against the death penatly are far more sound than those for." Who decides that? I would like to believe its the voters and of course victims. But like you and a few others here, born rich and live in lilly big house, family alumni seem to believe things should work only in your world view with NO debate. You've decided what is and what is not a sound argument.

The guy killed a kid. that alone should make one want to put him down. If it was yours? No chance of parole is only as good as long as there is money to house him.

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Hey man, your guy brang it up. and who is he to set a standard?

Huh? You do know this is a place to post opinions don't you? The opinions against the death penatly are far more sound than those for. Is that why you are trying to sabotage the debate?

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Could you just debate the issue and stop building strawmen?" Hey man, your guy brang it up.. and who is he to set a standard? Arizona has the dp, Giffords was pro DP too. Who is he to tell them anything?

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Like, there's no room for debate or even a vote?

Why would you try to paint a long sighted appeal for sense, civility and rational thought as an attempt to deny you of your voting rights? Could you just debate the issue and stop building strawmen?

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SolidariTea said: I can only repeat what I said before. Details will emerge that contradict the Official Narrative (Palin's website all but drove the whacko to kill)

No. That was a supposition. And whether correct or not the violence and gun analogies in political ads still needs to stop, right along with the knee-jerk broken record of "The left. The left. The left". Please, stop being Rush Limbaugh's puppet.

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Sarge said: Will you pay for his food, shelter, clothing, medical treatment, etc. for the rest of his miserable life?

Why should I? He can work in prison, can't he?

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This is stumble upon news. What a sick sick person

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You know, the news is getting quite a bit mum on this guy.... you'd think by now we'd know something as to why he killed her. Anyone else we would have had the info.

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Klein, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Whether or not he actually knew the difference between right and wrong (mens rea) that Saturday morning will be the test. Running away or trying to cover up a crime shows proof of a guilty frame of mind, i.e. not insane enough not to stand trial. In this case, this guy was not given the chance to run away or not... to cover up his crime or not...

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Kaczinsky and McVeigh were the hard cases." Well, Kaczinsky killed 3, McVeigh killed several hundred - big difference. And we zapped that idiot in due time. I am sure the ACLU will fight as hard for him as it would for anyone else." I disagree, if he had killed a republican, they may have.

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I can only repeat what I said before. Details will emerge that contradict the Official Narrative (Palin's website all but drove the whacko to kill) You will read that he was a victim. Or that he slipped through the cracks, the sysytem failed him, he was upset that the Tea Party (not to menttion the majority of Americans) want ObamaCare repealed..

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"Tatanka, I'll bet one of my Sig Sauers against one of your sidearms that this guy will never be put on trial.

He'll never see daylight again, but he won't see a criminal trial either."

Interesting comment that somehow I am not ready for yet. If you look at Hinckley, he "got away with an insanity plea". And went from full on prison to something less than that to a kind of halfway house just in the last couple of years. His girlfriends say he is kind of a nice guy and think he should be "freed". I seem to remember that he has problems with lying and being manipulative, and that is how they know he is not keeping up with therapeutic goals. But he did not kill anybody. He used a .22 revolver, which is what... a five-shooter? He sees daylight every day. Walks around in public in sweaters and corduroys.

Kaczinsky and McVeigh were the hard cases.

For different reasons, I think this guy will get a trial. He knows right from wrong. He knew who at least one of these people was and what her beliefs were. He premeditated this, acquired a big clip, and described it as assassination. Once he starts talking, he will face even more charges. A haircut like that in Tucson was not chosen to improve his tan complexion, after all. He has been in trouble many times. This is his "big chance" and he is not going to blow it by keeping his mouth shut.

I am sure the ACLU will fight as hard for him as it would for anyone else.

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Looks like about four right-wing wack-jobs I know. No kidding." Looks like 80% of you anglos

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Killing him only validates violence as a solution to problems" Time to evolve people. We condemn violence and stand by that moral decision." Just what gives you the "moral" authority to make that statement, are you higher than us? Like, there's no room for debate or even a vote?

Let me see if I get you correct, kill a fetus, gassing dogs and cats are a ok, but putting down a deranged individual who has evolved just a fraction of that of a shark is immoral?

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tkoind2, in my nation, those who can form the legal frame of mind to knowingly take innocent life already know the dealio.

It's not like when we put them to sleep as painlessly as scientifically possible as we can that it all comes as a big surprise to them. Nobody changed the rules mid-game.

But down't worry on this case. This character will not be put to death.

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Why is it that people see violence, act shocked and sickened, then demand violence in retribution? What kind of twisted double standards are you living by?

Put this monster away. Killing him only validates violence as a solution to problems and invites more people to use violence to achieve their ends.

Time to evolve people. We condemn violence and stand by that moral decision.

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"His picture scares me."

Looks like about four right-wing wack-jobs I know. No kidding.

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Jeez, this picture is quite enough :(

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"I hope he gets life"

Will you pay for his food, shelter, clothing, medical treatment, etc. for the rest of his miserable life?

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Still praying foer the victims' families, and for the Congresswoman from Arizona, Gabrielle Giffords. May this man get the due justice he deserves...

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Tatanka, I'll bet one of my Sig Sauers against one of your sidearms that this guy will never be put on trial.

He'll never see daylight again, but he won't see a criminal trial either.

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Crazy or not, killing a federal judge will get him the needle.

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ff,

'support gun laws' does not equal 'support nuts killing innocent people'

Not for guns myself, but this debate centering on guns is stupid. It should be centered on treatment for the mentally ill.

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He sure looks like a nutter. Full on nutbutter crunch crazy! I can only imagine he represents a good chunk of the US population. And by a good chunk I am thinking 6-8 percent.

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what was giffords being asked?

do you still support gun laws?

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His picture scares me.

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Yes, ideas such as being executed for killing other people. Good idea in this case.

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I hope he gets life. The idea that some people must be killed for justice only gives other nuts like this one ideas.

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Best news I heard all day!

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Good luck to all those injured, and RIP to those children and adults killed. Let's all hope this terrorist is swiftly executed.

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McVeigh was CIA. UnaBomber --> MK-Ultra (CIA). And now this guy.

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Its going to be a tough recovery. Good luck Mrs. Giffords. And a speedy recovery to the other living victims as well.

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