GOP convention opens amid talk of Palin's unmarried daughter being pregnant

imgold,

The Palins released a statement regarding the "plans to be married", its part of the public record. As for Cleo's claims that this pregnancy is "unwanted/unplanned" there is nothing to indicate either is true.

Is that all you got? A statement that is part of the public record? You really do not know a thing about politicians if that is good enough for you and/or you do not seem to understand that we are not talking about a legally binding public record, but just a statement released to the public.

As for the unplanned/unwanted thing, I have to question your understanding of the English language. There has beenplenty from the very beginning, to indicate that one or both are true.

And as jwills79 points out, now there is proof that it is true from the side of the as yet still unmarried teenage father.

And before the strawman army comes to attack, I don't have a problem with their situation. But plenty on the right should. It is their silence and voiced acceptance ie. hypocrisy that is sickening.

Cavemanlawyer, poor position mate, you would get run in any court of law this this flawed rebuttel:

The punchline should come at the end. Yes, coming from you, it was pretty funny! You have a gift for irony though you probably are not aware of it yourself!

--Cirroc

Imgold,

It is a matter of fact the pregnancy was unplanned because the proof was on the Baby's daddy own myspace page. In addition, to admitting to being a redneck, he also said and I quote "I do not want any children". That is why it was pulled down shortly after the news got out.

wow, looks like mccain is just as incompetent as bush. maybe more as he is so old.

Staff at a California school were scratching their heads on Friday after their facility mysteriously appeared as a backdrop during John McCain's Republican Convention speech.

A giant image of Walter Reed Middle School in the Los Angeles suburb of North Hollywood was one of several pictures projected onto a backdrop at the Republican Convention on Thursday as McCain addressed delegates.

However ABC and online reports have speculated McCain's campaign could have intended to show a picture of the prestigious Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington D.C. rather than a relatively obscure school in California.

A McCain campaign spokesman was not immediately available to comment on the reasons for the selection of the photo.

But Walter Reed Middle School's principal Donna Tobin said in a statement that use of the school's image had come as a surprise.

"It has been brought to the school's attention that a picture of the front of our school, Walter Reed Middle School, was used as a backdrop at the Republican National Convention," Tobin said.

"Permission to use the front of our school for the Republican National Convention was not given by our school nor is the use of our school's picture an endorsement of any political party or view."

Walter Reed hospital was at the center of a national scandal in 2007 after revelations of negligent patient care at the facility.

Cavemanlawyer, poor position mate, you would get run in any court of law this this flawed rebuttel:

"You have not been near them either. Best you remember that. You were not in the same room they "decided" to get married, so don't be too sure about any of it, not even the plan to get married part."

The Palins released a statement regarding the "plans to be married", its part of the public record. As for Cleo's claims that this pregnancy is "unwanted/unplanned" there is nothing to indicate either is true.

Aside from this, the typical negative spin by the Japantoday crowd, is the fact that Palin's polling numbers currently show her leading both McCain and Obama in terms of popularity. Could it be that Japantoday has once again chosen to back the wrong horse ? I'm gonna laugh my tail off if the Sarge's of this site turn out to be right and the Palin/McCain ticket wins in a landslide !

imgold,

And like I said before Cleo, you have never been anywhere near any of the parties involved. You don't know them personally and you certainly weren't in the same room when Bristol and Levi decided to get married.

You have not been near them either. Best you remember that. You were not in the same room they "decided" to get married, so don't be too sure about any of it, not even the plan to get married part. Like I told another, you don't even know the planned wedding date.

--Cirroc

For all we know they decided to celebrate their proposal with a good old fashioned rollick in the hay.

Exactly. The American media outlets love to blow things out of proportion and make something out of nothing. Shame on CNN, Fox, The New York Times, The Washington Post, of course AP and other major U.S. news outlets for jumping on every single scandal to sell a newspaper. But hey, that's what they do to make a living; even if it calls for dragging people through the mud. God bless the First Amendment!

mar4eO - hilarious to hear the deluded carping on about how great the leadership of their country's been over the past 8 years when everyone else can plainly see it has been a disaster. And wanting another 4 years of it under the past-it Mr McCain would truly be the equivalent of turkeys voting for Christmas

The fact is if Chelsea got preggers when bill was in the WH the redneck fox news would have gone nuts with how liberal democrats allow their kids to have sex, blah blah blah. Now that a creationist bible thumper palin allows her kids to have kids its gods will and we all should have to love each more. Can the repubs be anymore hypocritical? Being republican, a bush/palin born again loser type, is really a neurosis. All of them need to be in serious reality therapy.

"Life Happens" - a nice phrase for Palin to remember when she gets sent back to Alaska after taking a beating in the election.

I know McCain is clutching at straws now, but really - what a desperate choice for a running mate. McCain keels over with a heart attack and you get this crazy woman in charge of the nuclear button? Nope, even Republicans aren't going to go for that.

McCain is plainly to old for this - his judgement's gone, and the world is laughing at the GOP now

How many of you out there have children ? Well then I'm sure you've seen this scenerio before. You tell the youngster to stop banging on the table, and they respond with "I'm only doing this" and proceed to bang a little more. Welcome to the world of Cleo ! Where one side of the mouth says I ain't doing anything while the other side of the mouth continues.

"I'm not 'insisting' that this pregnancy is unwanted, I'm saying that all the factors point to it being unplanned."

And like I said before Cleo, you have never been anywhere near any of the parties involved. You don't know them personally and you certainly weren't in the same room when Bristol and Levi decided to get married. For all we know they decided to celebrate their proposal with a good old fashioned rollick in the hay. For you to continue to libel their good name under the protection of Japantoday is a bit risky. As I said before, the Palins are about to go after similar tabloids in the court system. I'm surprised Japantoday allows your remarks to remain. But then again, they've deleted better !

imgold -

I'm not 'insisting' that this pregnancy is unwanted, I'm saying that all the factors point to it being unplanned. Big difference. (If it was planned and they intend to get married, why not do things in the conventional order, wedding first, baby later?) Personally I would have thought that the assumption that a couple of unmarried teenagers deliberately making a baby and the parents being fine and dandy with that would be much more damaging to the Palin family reputation.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see this 'anti-American angle' that's upsetting you so much. A couple of kids having an unplanned baby is a bad idea in any country.

It is good to see Obama do the honorable and right thing by not focusing on Palin's unmarried daughter. Boo on the American media that always love to create something out of nothing. It is time media outlets in the U.S. get their acts together and show real news and not scandal after scandal after scandal (even though it is what the American public wants).

So, if Palin gets elected, is she going to have McCain pardon all the 18/19-year-olds in American jails and prisons for having sex with their 16/17 year old girlfriends?

Pregnant single teenage daughter? If Gov. Palin, like Pres. Bush, starts promoting abstinence as an effective method to prevent pregnancy, AIDS, and other infections, I am going to puke my guts out! Preaching abstinence to these teenagers does not work! They will have sex and that's the truth. Teach them to use condoms and contraception instead!

my buddy clinton? I'm not american, nossiree bob. what is wrong with my point anyway? pre marital sex is ok with christians now? yes or no? intelligent christain debate is a true oxymoron sir so there is little point.

liberals such as yourself are, typically, two-faced and hypocritical

no no no no, thats wrong too. who told you that?

So much for "intelligent" debate with Lipscombe. Again, nice try, Lipscombe. The glaring fact ofthis matter is that liberals such as yourself are, typically, two-faced and hypocritical. With your buddy Clinton, Lipscombe, it was all about sex, and he shouldn't have been impeached. Now, Gov. Palin's bad, bad, baaaaaad. Way to go in showing the hypocrisy!!! Lead the way, Lipscombe....

Sarah and Todd Palin: "Our beautiful daughter Bristol"

I agree.

McCain advisor Steve Schmidt: "Life happens"

Yeah, it does!

When an 18-year-old who describes himself as a '*%&#$!' redneck who doesn't want children is named as the father of a baby that the 17-year-old mother says she's 'going to keep', it doesn't take much in the way of assumption, as Caveman rightly points out, to reckon that this was an unplanned baby.

You assume he actually said that, you base that on what? daily kos? I'd check my sources before you claim some 17 year old is going to say that on his my space website....You reckon??????

And posters like imgold look for any opportunity to play the pathetic and childish 'they hate us because we're American' card.

What on earth does the nationality of either of the young people have to do with this?

When an 18-year-old who describes himself as a '*%&#$!' redneck who doesn't want children is named as the father of a baby that the 17-year-old mother says she's 'going to keep', it doesn't take much in the way of assumption, as Caveman rightly points out, to reckon that this was an unplanned baby. Whatever the country.

I only wish all christians were as liberal as you bluetiger! lead the way!

Caveman, I can agree with you on this, "I do not approve of Cleo's words", but I can't agree with you on the rest. The so-called statement you refer to appears to be in response to media questions and the circus that there-in follows. Posters like Cleo look for any opportunity to have a go at anything American, even if it includes blind assumptions. This is a perfect example. Nobody but the people involved know what is happening. It wouldn't be the first time someone became pregnant and "then" got married ! I say congrats to them.

Lipscombe - If it were Palin herself, yes, she and McCain would lose my vote (not that McCain had it in the first place). As it is her daughter, and further that her daughter isn't shirking her responsibility, nor taking the "strong, courageous" single mother route, but is actually marrying the father of her child, that says somethign to me about Palins' and her husbands teachign of their daughter responsibility for her actions. Yes, it is a travesty that she chose to have sex before marriage, but to me, that sheds more light on the daughter than it does Gov. Palin.

Nice try, anyway, in attempting to muddy the waters or my personal stance.

I do not approve of Cleo's words, but the assumption that they were not intentionally trying to make a baby is completely valid.

It is backed up by this in the article:

Monday’s statement, attributed to Sarah and Todd Palin and released by the campaign, said that Bristol Palin would keep her baby...

A statement like that is not made when a pregnancy is planned. In such a case, they state that the pregnancy was planned.

--Cirroc

"If it was wanted and planned, then they really are lacking in common-sense..."

Because ?

What, they can't afford a child ?

The father is a no-goodnick ?

Uh, because it's just not right ?

A lot of speculation by the neighbourhood grouse if you ask me.

What makes you think the "baby" is unwanted ?

If it was wanted and planned, then they really are lacking in common-sense...

What makes you think the "baby" is unwanted ? Seems to me it's the "father" thats possibly unwanted.

The father wrote 'I don't want children' on his blog.

And you can't have a baby without a father, definitely not for these folks.

"Pity they didn't have a bit of common-sense help before they inadvertently made an unwanted baby."

What makes you think the "baby" is unwanted ? Seems to me it's the "father" thats possibly unwanted.

Nessie -

Like I said, they'll have financial help.

Pity they didn't have a bit of common-sense help before they inadvertently made an unwanted baby.

their earning power will be minimal unless young Levi is a budding Richard Branson

With a mom as a veep candidate, I hardly think they'll be wanting in anything other than common sense, Cleo.

It's not like they'll be scraping by on TV dinners. Considering mom's a veep candidate from Alaska, the newlyweds will be veritably reveling in an ample supply of gourmet TV dinners.

I do not blast Palin for her values. I blast her for

1) wanting to legislate her values on me.

Right to the point DanManjt. Nice! b('o') I blast her for that and not seeing how those values went epic fail and still wanting to pass them on us all.

Palin's Daughter and the Father of the child are getting married..........but I guess that matters little to the hypocritical left liberals.

Like the poor dude had a choice...it's the whole Republican party holding the shotgun!

Palin's Daughter and the Father of the child are getting married..........but I guess that matters little to the hypocritical left liberals.

Are you so sure? You do not even know the planned wedding date. I suspect you are a man of great faith and poor memory. No matter how many times you get played by politicians of both sides, you just keep sticking to your side. Sure, they would not lie to you!

When Clinton did his thing with a woman who was yougn enough to be his daughter, it was "just about sex".

Few left hypocrits here. We don't care that she had sex at 17. We support her choice to keep the baby. We wish she had used protection and used it correctly, but that is about the only condemnation we have for her.

What mystifies us the lack of indignation on the right. You brought up Clinton all by yourself. You were indignant then. Why not now? One of your own failed the abstinence only education. Apparently because your VP apparent failed to instill it. Why does that not upset you?

Stop trying to project indignance on us. What we want to know is, what happened to yours?

--Cirroc

P.S. Odd that you bring up Clinton. If I remember Clinton cheated but stayed with his wife. McCain dumped his wife for a younger woman. So Bill lives by your policies more than McCain. And Obama? It would seem more than both of them! I have not heard that he has cheated, left his wife, or even has a child who had an abortion or a teen pregnancy. I guess that means you will be voting Democrat this year? Or do you always just vote party without thinking? Or are you putting these issues on hold? What?

As a Father or a Mother you wouldn't teach abstinence to your teeneage daughter?

So many posts clearing that up sailwind. I hope you read them. If not, I will make it short and sweet for you. There is a difference between teaching abstinence and teaching abstinence only. Do you see that word only? It sort of like teaching someone how to drive, but among the foot petals, teaching them about the brake only. No surprise when they stomp the accelerator when you are not looking and ram a wall, is it?

Palin's girl rammed the wall. I fault her for failing to see that.

--Cirroc

Lipscomb

You said it.

Pity the poor dude, he's suddenly getting dragged along to the Republican convention - all because he didn't wrap it up!

well, there we have it folks. A so called defender of values being bitten by her own. What a joke eh? Palin can have her so called values on herself, but don't push them on me. I maybe a liberal, at least I am not a hypocrite.

there goes the christian vote haha. bluetiger seems okay with it though, maybe pre-marital sex isnt so bad after all! yay! lets get at it!

"Those on the left I spoke to do not thing..." should have been - Those on the left I spoke to do not think ....

I do not blast Palin for her values. I blast her for

1) wanting to legislate her values on me.

Palin's Daughter and the Father of the child are getting married..........but I guess that matters little to the hypocritical left liberals. When Clinton did his thing with a woman who was yougn enough to be his daughter, it was "just about sex". Now, when Palin's daughter is found to be with child (even though she and her beau are taking on the responsibility and gettign married), the knives are sharpened, and the story gains 143 (ahead of this one) comments, the majority of which are blasting the GOP Veep. Nominee for her values.

Pathetic, but not surprising, from the liberal left....

sailwind

As I previously posted, the Republican platform seeks to force schools to teach abstinence only birth control. We on the left who you describe as sleazy find it unacceptable that the conservative Republicans want to force their unsuccessful methods on the rest of us. We know kids make mistakes and we want them to be protected from those lapses in judgment by using protection. The problem with your "I really think this a private matter myself." statement is that a daughter, of one who advocates Abstinence Only programs, being the only method allowed to be discussed in schools, who gets pregnant is the one and only example we can use to say that Abstinence Only programs do not work. I and countless other liberals have agreed that it is a good idea to inform young students that abstinence is the perfect method to prevent pregnancy and disease. Palin and other conservatives want to exclude us from saying "If you don't adhere to an abstinence program please use protection." They once again spelled out in the Republican platform for 2008 adopted September 1, 2008.

Cool....Caveman breed, spread sperm, species thrive.

I believe Caveman made it abundantly clear that he is for contraceptive education on birth control. So once again you have resorted to using the Straw Man fallacy. He made that statement at 03:19 PM JST on the 2nd of September.

As a Father or a Mother you wouldn't teach abstinence to your teeneage daughter? No offense but sure isn't a democrat or republican thing, that is good parenting in my opinion. You seem to have sort of fault with that.

It just sounds so much better to accuse us of not supporting the advice of abstinence to teenagers instead of telling the truth and saying we also want contraceptive practices also taught. The video (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo) (posted on youtube, March 31, 2008 - I can't say when he made the speech) a fundie on here posted to defame Obama makes it clear he was advocating just those policies. I took the time to transcribe his words and they can be referenced in my prior post. Here are the Republicans policies.

2008 Republican Party Platform September 1, 2008

(under) Asserting Family Rights in Schooling

We renew our call for replacing "family planning" programs for teens with increased funding for abstinence education, which teaches abstinence until marriage as the responsible and expected standard of behavior.

We oppose school-based clinics that provide referrals, counseling, and related services for abortion and contraception.

I consider it gross to leave girls vulnerable by not informing them with education. Those on the left I spoke to do not thing she is a bad girl in any way, shape or form. We believe she used bad judgment. It is the far right who are the most likely to label her a sinner and claim the sinner has come home since she intends to have the baby and also be married. It is very interesting that you said "teach abstinence to your teenage daughter." What about teaching abstinence to your teenage son? To advocate anything else would be no less then misogyny.

While abstinence may work 100% of the time, abstinence programs do not work 100% of the time. That is why we must offer alternatives. Oh and that silly little argument stating that by offering kids advice on contraceptives as birth control it is giving them permission to have sex - kids don't need permission. Bristol was not given permission was she?

Oh and about politicizing her life, that is what it would be called when you trot the boyfriend, Levi Johnston, out to score political points and rally the troops.

I would prefer not to be so verbose but those on the right will say you said something else unless you spell it out completely.

Sailwind, perhaps you don't understand what teaching "abstinence" really means.

It doesn't mean recommending no sex, but also explaining the other options.

It means relying on "No sex" alone as the message, ignoring everything else.

It has been proven to be detrimental to the problem of teen pregnancy and STDs.

People who continue to support that should be pilloried. They will certainly never be qualified to run any form of government.

Is her boyfriend really up the responsibilities of raising a family

They're a couple of high school kids, of course they aren't up to the responsibilities of raising a family. Grandparents may help out financially, since their earning power will be minimal unless young Levi is a budding Richard Branson; but this is still children having babies.

The girl is pregnant, big deal, it does not affect her mothers capabilities. Move onto the next story please, this is tedious.

I do not imagine that money is going to be a problem. I have not heard that Palin is poor, so I assume she is well off and willing to shell out.

Agreed. The point is most girls who find themselves in these circumstances are not the offpsring of governors who can line things up for them. But teenage marriage is still a dicey proposition.

Caveman

Your going to called on it.

None of it changes the fact that abstinence only does not, did not, and will not work for her daughter or for the nation.

As a Father or a Mother you wouldn't teach abstinence to your teeneage daughter?

No offense but sure isn't a democrat or republican thing, that is good parenting in my opinion. You seem to have sort of fault with that.

Few people equipped with nothing beyond a high school diploma have such earning power. It's no great revelation that money problems take a huge toll on family life.

I do not imagine that money is going to be a problem. I have not heard that Palin is poor, so I assume she is well off and willing to shell out.

The issue you should focus on is the fact that they are not married right now, right this very minute. Because that seriously negates the statement:

"They are taking responsibility for their actions and recognize a child needs a mother and father committed in marriage."

Since money is most likely not a problem, taking responsibility, to Palin, is probably just recognizing the baby, making a commitment to care for him or her, and getting married.

Cool....Caveman breed, spread sperm, species thrive.

This Caveman uses condoms and has not helped the species through propogation yet. I recommend condoms to caveteens also, as well as education in proper use. Misconceptions abound among caveteens and even some cave adults.

As was said before, I am not against abstinence. Abstinence is not my reccomendation because it lends itself to desperation which leads to bad choices. The problem is the attempt to push abstinence only and leave teens ignorant of all else. Ignorant people do ignorant things, it matters not if you are modern or caveman.

--Cirroc

What does being able to appear on the national stage have to do with being a husband and father? I think you have gone off the deep end on this one. Neither he nor Bristol have any obligation to us whatsoever. And their running with that fact says not a thing about their ability to parent or carry on as a couple.

This is the "happy ever after" scenario dished up by the religious right which I'm taking issue with (not the private decisions of Bristol Palin and her boyfriend). "They are taking responsibility for their actions and recognize a child needs a mother and father committed in marriage."

This glosses over the statistics on shotgun marriages between teenage partners, how many last until that child reaches adulthood? Do they have the means to financially support a family? Few people equipped with nothing beyond a high school diploma have such earning power. It's no great revelation that money problems take a huge toll on family life.

In the lower rung Republican mind, all laws, morals and ethics of today work retroactively. This makes it much easier to climb upon the back of the moral high horse. And after being knocked off time and time again, anything that makes the process easier is usually very welcome. One thing you can give credit to many Republicans, no matter how wrong they are, they are tireless! I hope the Democrats can harness them this year, and turn them back into a force for truth and justice and stop their destructive tendencies.

--Cirroc

The next president of the United States is going to be John McCain and the next vice president is going to be Sarah Palin. Because Americans are not going to have a brain fart big enough to elect Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

None of it changes the fact that abstinence only does not, did not, and will not work for her daughter or for the nation. I would at least like Palin to admit that and realize that abstinence only is garbage that parents are free to feed their own kids at home but have no business whatsoever attempting to force it on the nation's youth.

Cool....Caveman breed, spread sperm, species thrive.

Is her boyfriend really up the responsibilities of raising a family if he can't even show his face at the moment the mother of his child is under enormous public scrutiny?

What does being able to appear on the national stage have to do with being a husband and father? I think you have gone off the deep end on this one. Neither he nor Bristol have any obligation to us whatsoever. And their running with that fact says not a thing about their ability to parent or carry on as a couple.

Plenty of other reasons to be suspicious though. Plenty. Her age and the fact that they are not married right now. 2 months to November and I doubt they will be then, or ever, if they are not right now.

--Cirroc

Palin is not the hypocrite. The ultra-Christian right are if they don't drop her asap.

I said too much. They don't need to drop her, and they will not because she still supports abstinence only despite this yet another huge failure and she is anti-choice with abortion. But still, they are hypocritical if they do not at least condemn this failure of a mother who supports those positions to instill them in her own offspring. But no real suprise she failed when baby trig is mostly in the care of others. It shows something about how much time she devotes to parenting.

The only way to get out of that is to admit that the rich and politicians are special, and get a free pass. I might be more willing to admit that than others. After all, if the father can leave his kids to others to do a job, why can't a mother? And if she would make a great VP, don't we owe her a little break?

None of it changes the fact that abstinence only does not, did not, and will not work for her daughter or for the nation. I would at least like Palin to admit that and realize that abstinence only is garbage that parents are free to feed their own kids at home but have no business whatsoever attempting to force it on the nation's youth.

--Cirroc

I really think this a private matter myself. Sarah Palin as far as I can tell never denied or lied about her daughter being pregnant. Tried her best to shield her daughter and the inevitable bad press of course but never openly lied to anyone about it.

You can't have it both ways. Once you put your family up on stage with you in front of the national media you've put them in the public eye. Somebody was going to notice Bristol's five-month bump which would raise questions.

Among the ones I have, why didn't they let her go home? Track disappeared after the initial appearance and Bristol could have too. Is her boyfriend really up the responsibilities of raising a family if he can't even show his face at the moment the mother of his child is under enormous public scrutiny?

Being a mother is one of the basic responsibilities of human life for most women at some time in their lives. Why wouldn't people for whom a "focus on the family" is so important seem so lackadaisically accepting of Sarah Palin's turning over the care of Trig to others?

There are of course many jobs which enable a woman to put down the blackberry and pick up a breast pump, but the Vice Presidency of the United States ain't one of them.

This selection of running mate by John McCain shows how out of touch he is with American society (and its thirst for scandal as evidenced by all the coverage of Britney Spears). If it was Track Palin whose girlfriend was pregnant, instead of Bristol being in a family way that is visible to the naked eye, it would have been containable.

Also, if McCain's choice of Sarah Palin was simply to provide an alternative female to Hillary in an attempt to woo her supporters, he failed to appreciate the difference beyond gender: Sarah Palin is not known either for her intellectual or political merits but rather her reproductive merits. Her official bio has emphasized that she chose to bring a Down Syndrome baby into the world and her teenage daughter has chosen to bring a baby conceived as part of a high school romance into the world.

Interestingly they've utilized the language of the "pro-choice" movement to explain those decisions. Yet both McCain and Palin (and their self-congratulatory supporters) gloss over the fact that they would like to use the authority of the government to remove that choice from other females in similar circumstances. But it won't go unnoticed by the female voting public, so thanks for that.

Before I call it an evening on this here thread, I thought I should point out that both Laura Bush and Cindy McCain spoke at the gop convention and they both asked people to give support to the people of the Gulf Coast affected by Hurrican Gustav. Cindy McCain asked people to give donations to those in need at www.causegreater.com.

One would think that at least ONE (1) of McCain's supporters that post here regularly would have brought up their speeches on a thread about the gop convention.

Taka

Why wouldn't people for whom a "focus on the family" is so important seem so lackadaisically accepting of Sarah Palin's turning over the care of Trig to others?

Correction: It should read "Why WOULD people..."

I regret the error.

From the article: "Sarah Palin’s fifth child, a son named Trig, was born in April with Down syndrome."

What kind of care is the infant receiving while his mother campaigns full time? Why are the people who always preach "family values" so apparently disinterested in this? Being a mother is one of the basic responsibilities of human life for most women at some time in their lives. Why wouldn't people for whom a "focus on the family" is so important seem so lackadaisically accepting of Sarah Palin's turning over the care of Trig to others?

What does it say of the family values of John McCain? If I was searching out a partner to take on a very grueling project, and one of the prospects just gave birth to an infant with a disability, my feeling as a man would have me thinking that separating the woman from her child at this stage of his development wouldn't be right for that family OR for the project.

"sorry to say it, but she is a teenager, we all were once before, our hormones run rampant"

That's why I disagree with christian fundies tlking about "abstenation" as a method of contraception. Perhaps Ms. Palin wouldn't be in this predicement, and neither McCain, were the parents responsable enough to know that honrny teenagers are in general at it like rabbits.

It's like expecting a smack-head not to take heroin when it's under the addicts nose...

ramen,

You stated Obama said told the staff and posters at Daily Kos to, "stop or be fired," which he has no authority to do. I also think you made it up.

You follow that with basically this:

"Why would he want to do the thing I made up? Can't you see, by looking at another thing I made up, it would make no sense for him to do what I initially made up?"

Whoaaaaa K, ramen. You, um, "win." I'm backing away slowly now. Uh....live long and prosper. We are from earth. We mean you no harm.

Taka

sorry to say it, but she is a teenager, we all were once before, our hormones run rampant. peer pressure,and being held in high esteem amongst peers are the hardest things to keep up with. Just like trying drugs,some did it some did. just like teenage pregnancy, some were and most weren't.

anyway you all put it. it's her damn business if she's preganant or not.......will anyone of your donate a dime for Down's Syndrome...hmmmmmm yep..that's what i thought.....just blowing wind!!!!!

how is Sen. Obama going to "fire" people posting at Daily Kos anyway?

Lord Soros funds Daily Kos and DU. Heh, you think obama's going to fire his sugar daddy?

RR

ramen,

The same leadership argument you attempted to make regarding Sen. Obama applies to Sen. McCain as well. He asked that his supporters tone down things at the RNC yet there were parties with pink boas and pink wigs (Hello larry craig and mark foley!) for gop'ers in Minneapolis, mostly paid for by...guess who? (hint: starts with "L," rhymes with slobbiest)

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Rni6G7RRFkk

So, if you want to make an issue that Sen. Obama has no leadership abilities because he can't control the messages people post on Daily Kos, you should also criticize Sen. McCain for not being able to control the delegates of his own party at his own nomination convention when he asked them to tone down their celebrations.

And how is Sen. Obama going to "fire" people posting at Daily Kos anyway?

Taka

The liberals at Daily Kos are behaving exactly as anticipated. They'll continue the attacks and obama will continue to be tied to them. He tells them to stop or get fired. But it still happens. Looks like obama's leadership qualities are truly hot-air and fireworks.

RR

Hi I am Sarah Palin and my unwed 17 year old daughter is pregnant. Oh and by the way I am the repub selection for VP.

She didnt lie nor did she disclose this fact till she was forced to do so.

Any repubs who whine about this after the way Kerry was slimed by the Rove, and mccain as well in 2000, are just plain nutty.

The young lady is just pregnant, it's not like she took money from the FBI and put it in her freezer, or continued a relationship with a "reverend" who hates white people and America.

Just a normal, human thing that happens. It is tough for the young adults among us to deny their feelings and passions and sometimes pregnancy results. It's not like she tried to blow up the Pentagon or the U.S. Capitol Building or rob a Brinks armored car where a policeman died, or is friends with terrorists who did.

RR

I really think this a private matter myself. Sarah Palin as far as I can tell never denied or lied about her daughter being pregnant. Tried her best to shield her daughter and the inevitable bad press of course but never openly lied to anyone about it. The vultures in the Alaska's press were pretty respectful as it was an open secret in Alaska. But leave it to the Daily Kos types to start the mud factory after she got the nod for V.P. This whole thing started squarely with them implying on the most vilest of terms that she was never the mother of Trig her downs syndrome child. Shame on them and those posters here who thrive on destroying people only because they disagree with you politically. No better than Rove the lot of them.

What was that famous saying by Pogo when I was growing up? Oh yeah "We met the enemy and he was us".

You've become what you rallied agaisnt.

Slime politics......Thank goodness Obama doesn't represent you fringe left types he's taking the high road and goodness knows the sleaze he had to endure so far also....peoples children are off limits and should always be.

By the way did you know Mccain throw his first disfiguired wife under the bus?? Had to throw that in there also because McCain has been slimed just as bad as Obama by his own party and the same fringe left that now has Palin in her their sleazy sights.

Dr James Dobson has announced (Aug 30) that he will support John McCain after all.

Are Americans going to make a leadership choice which will profoundly affect the fate of the world based on a 17 year-old getting in the family way? And some people say that it's Japanese politics which is up the spout...

Reading all of the nonsense that is being spouted here, I'm left wishing all Republicans would practice abstinence - from speaking, as well as reproducing....

RNC Protesters Attack Connecticut Delegates Getting Off Bus

Last Edited: Monday, 01 Sep 2008, 7:14 PM CDT

Connecticut Delegation Attacked

ST. PAUL "As the Connecticut delegation was getting off a bus near the Xcel Center, a group of protesters broke free from authorities and attacked the delegates.

Connecticut delegate Rob Simmons told FOX 9 that a group of protesters came toward his delegation and tried to rip the credentials off their necks and sprayed them with a toxic substance.

The unknown substance burned their eyes and stained their clothes.

One 80-year-old member of the delegation had to be treated for injuries, and several other delegates had to rinse their eyes and clothing."

Bags of cement thrown off an overpass onto delegate buses below.

Vid testimony -

http://www.foundingbloggers.com/wordpress/2008/09/video-rnc-bus-attacked-on-way-to-xcel-center/

Blogger Atlas Shrugs has photos of the usual violent little trustafarians who show up at these events. They are "protesting war" - smashing the windows of police cars.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/rnc-anti-war-le.html

The AP also has coverage, for those who just know that Karl Rove personally authors every well known conservative blog out there-

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_protests

Mothers should be available to support and nurture their children.

This one pretty fundamental 'family value' that Palin clearly doesn't believe in.

I take back what I said about Democrats in this thread. I just read through it all this time. Some of you are simply amazing in your analysis and seeing the strawmen placed on you for exactly what they are. Most of you are well spoken here. The usual suspect Republicans would not have shown so much restraint or fairness if the sides were switched and we all know it.

I still think the main issue to pound is that abstinence only education just got yet another gaping hole blown in it. And Palin still supports it for all know. Palin is no hypocrite in this, that is for sure, and I think most of you realize that. Its not her life. But a lot on the right will be hypocrites if they continue to support her. We all know any other time we would get nothing but condemnation of her from them for the failure to instill those abstinence only values in the kids. If Palin were a Dem, the Repubs would call her a failure of a mother. Most Dems here know better. Palin is not the hypocrite. The ultra-Christian right are if they don't drop her asap.

--Cirroc

Back after some time away. Would also like to add some fuel to the fire. One political question is how do shotgun weddings go down with the religious right in the US? I would have thought that this girl's dilemma would have seriously undercut McCain's capital with the fundies of the far right.

Next, what do Americans expect of their President? Colin Powell said that he never wanted to get involved in a Presidential election because of his wife's issues with depression (and medication for such). At this crossroads of history, aren't there more important issues than slagging off some young girl because she got knocked up? Then again, somebody above raised an interesting point. What would the GOP's reaction have been if one of Obama's children got pregnant? While I am sure that John McCain would have not put the boot in himself (he seems to have a sense of honor about him - so does Obama), can the same be said of other elements in the GOP. After all, this was the group (or at least those who supported Bush in 2000) that tried a bit of push-polling in the GOP primaries vis-a-vis John McCain fathering a mixed-heritage baby. It would be interesting to know what the GOP attitude would have been if the shoe was on the other foot.

Anyway, it seems that McCain at the current time has got a bit of a albatross around his neck with his running mate. After just a week of campaigning, Palin (and rightly or wrongly her family) have managed to bring up two controversies that undercut McCain's image.

Finally, I would like to hear what the young man (the boyofriend of Palin's daughter) has to say for himself. Given the political necessity of getting the girl married now that she is in the family way, images come to mind of a real shotgun wedding.

"You guys are your own worst enemy on this one."

People who walk the moral high-ground always end up hypocrites. From a wide stance in the bathroom to a refusal to accept contraception being reasonable for horny teenagers to stop them spoiling their early adult life, I just don't get their argument.

helter,

No, this thread deals with the GOP convention and Palin's daughter being pregnant.

The fact that Sen. Obama's detractors haven't even tried to steer this conversation back to the convention says a lot about their lack of a platform, other than to attack Sen. Obama.

If you guys were really concerned about the issues, I like to believe one of you would have gotten a ticket for the clue train and taken then high road by trying to steer the conversation back to the GOP convention. Do you even know who spoke during day one or what they talked about?

You had your chance, and you blew it.

Obviously, I cannot speak for the moderation team, but ol' Taka is tickled to death to watch you republicans and neo-cons do everything BUT talk the issues. It makes for compelling evidence that you don't care about them nearly as much as you do about calling Dems racist (that would be your boy, pesky) and Obama's mother. For cryin' out loud, you all are in such a tizzy over this, you've completely forgotten Sen. Obama's middle name is "Hussein."

You guys are your own worst enemy on this one.

Taka

I agree with the poor girl sentiments. What a ruckus about nothing.

2008 Republican Party Platform September 1, 2008

(under) Asserting Family Rights in Schooling

We renew our call for replacing "family planning" programs for teens with increased funding for abstinence education, which teaches abstinence until marriage as the responsible and expected standard of behavior.

We oppose school-based clinics that provide referrals, counseling, and related services for abortion and contraception.

Do you any of you recall Obama's interview? "Hey, as for me, bring it on.. but leave my family alone."

This post is generating more than Cindy McCain's finances, more than Michelle Obama's not being proud of her country, more than GWB pretzel problems, and more than my band received in a weekly Tokyo music review...

That ain't right.

NO, politicians period of the epitome of hypocrisy...

Sins of hypocrisy are almost impossible to avoid for anyone. But Republican hypocrisy always seems to be so basic and crass, and is therefore less forgivable. What is more is that they always seem to beat a drum very very loudly before being caught in hypocrisy. The difference is one of scale.

But I think many so called Democrats are being hypocritical in this thread. But one should be suspicious of newer posters.

--Cirroc

To fix my last post:

Unfortunately, (or not) I think the Democrats are more worried about honesty than strategy. As they try to learn from the Republicans (or unlearn as it may be) how launch irrational, groundless, vindictive mudslings, they fall into the traps the Republicans know to avoid. It is not their strategy after all. I think Democrats are usually more concerned about fairness and justice and equality, but as the Republicans have succeeded year after year to drag them down, they resort to Republican smear, or try to. I hope Obama supporters will take my advice and limit to commenting on the proof of the failure of abstinence only education.

--Cirroc

"Democrats are the epitome of hypocrisy. "

NO, politicians period of the epitome of hypocrisy...

I personally wish all political parties cease to exist so we can really hear what a candidate wants to do and why they want to do it, instead of warping our minds.

Thus, having a pregnant unwed daughter -- when you are a strong opponent of sex education and proponent of hetero-only marriage, etc. -- makes this issue fair game.

Even the most perfect of parents don't always have perfect children, not matter what morals they try to instill in them. Any parent will tell you this. It's not their fault. Now, since the Palins have addressed the issue and moved on, why don't you as well.

The Dems just don't know that they already lost an election that could have easily fallen into their laps with a little strategy.

Unfortunately, (or not?) I think Democrats are more worried about honesty than strategy. (><) As they try to learn from the Republicans (or unlearn as it may be) they unfortunately fall into the traps that Republicans know to avoid being used to their own irrational, vicious and groundless strategizing. I give Republicans credit for relentlessness. I prefer fairness and justice. I hope those that support Obama will take the advice of my previous post.

--Cirroc

Honestly, running for VP with a 17 year old pregnant daughter is insane. If this was a demo VP candidate then the repubs would claim immorality and the end of america as we know it. Since it one of their own its OK, she just needs love. What a bunch of bleeding heart crapola.

Its the all too typical hypocracy of the repub party. Moralize to everyone but be accountable to no one.

There is only thing, only one I say, that the Democrats should bother pointing out about this. That is the fact that abstinence only education simply does not work. The pregnancy was quite preventable, and I think it safe to assume unwanted.

Say anything else, and you only serve the Republicans. All else is either hypocrisy or double-edged swords or attacking a pregnant teen. Don't be foolish with this Democrats. Please. Take this caveman's advice. The young couple should have been educated and protected and the Republicans and her own mom denied her. That is all we got. Don't pick at it any more than that.

--Cirroc

smithinjapan - You did see what your boy Obama said about this, right?

Damax6:

A candidate who claims to champion family values had better have some sort of apparent relationship with said values. (And not a hillbilly inbred type relationship.)

Thus, having a pregnant unwed daughter -- when you are a strong opponent of sex education and proponent of hetero-only marriage, etc. -- makes this issue fair game.

I know that Republicans are used to doing what they tell others is immoral, so it probably comes as a shock to you that most everyone else calls that "hypocrisy". Trust me on this: we think it's a bad thing.

So practice what you preach, and don't complain when you die by the same weapon you lived by (hint: it's a sword).

ColAmerica

Hey guys, how about forgetting about nominees families and get on with caring about policies. Their pilicies will affect our lives, not their families.

Great idea.

ColAmerica: "Hey guys, how about forgetting about nominees families and get on with caring about policies. Their pilicies will affect our lives, not their families. Let`s get back to discussing what really matters."

I agree, in theory, but then this post is not about 'what really matters', is it?

if she is pregnant or NOT , if the baby her mom has is hers, frankly, it is a private and personal matter is NOT anyone's business. Palin is open and fair game. BUT her kids are NOT. I am NOT GOP, but i feel the kids should not be included and should be left out. UNLESS you are Chelsea Clinton....she is fair game. We American love a good gossip tidbit here and there at others expense....cut the crap

Helter: Well, your sarcasm was lost on this one, anyway. Leftist keep bringing the subject up, eh? as opposed, again, to you bringing up what you said... sarcasm can still be hypocritical. Anyway, keep trying, my friend.

By the way I posted Obama's comments many hours ago in which he said the daughter's pregnancy was off limits. It was (rightly) removed by the mods because I included a terse statement to one of the many incarnations of RR. I see Skip did not get informed until:

skipthesong at 12:44 PM JST - 2nd September

You really should read the actual news more often.

As opposed to 'trig' and 'willow', etc?

I'm was being sarcastic. But just so you know, I was actually ridiculing you and the other leftists who keep bringing the subject up.

Hey guys, how about forgetting about nominees families and get on with caring about policies. Their pilicies will affect our lives, not their families.

Let`s get back to discussing what really matters.

Helter: Enter the great hypocrite!

"And since we're at it, what kind of name is Stanley for a girl?"

As opposed to 'trig' and 'willow', etc? No one defending this VP pick has any right dissing people's names.

MPNiea: "Democrats are the epitome of hypocrisy. "

Says a proven hypocrite (under a different handle, granted). So a hypocrite being hypocritical is..... what.....? By the way, A = b~c is boolean logic... something the Republicans depend upon, but is as it always has been, foolish and utterly stupid.

Hey, what about Obama's mother Stanley Ann Dunham? She became pregnant at the age of 17 while in high school by a 24 year old college student named Barack Obama Sr. They weren't married and she was a minor at the time. And since we're at it, what kind of name is Stanley for a girl?

Smithinjapan: It is called an example, i.e. "one of a number of things, or a part of something, taken to show the character of the whole". A = B ~ C. Keep up big boy. Democrats are the epitome of hypocrisy. That and the physical embodiment of hopelessness and failure. McCain / Palin have already won this election, and the liberal media is scavenging for scraps to keep up. The Dems just don't know that they already lost an election that could have easily fallen into their laps with a little strategy.

The major consequence of Roe vs Wade has been a substantial reduction in unwanted and neglected children, which has in turn led to a gradual but sustained fall in the crime rate in the US (the same trends can be seen in other western countries as well).

Do people who spout this have any idea how incredibly racist their assertion is?

African-American women are almost four times more likely to resort to abortion.

I'll go ahead and charitably assume the poster's last flight to Japan was spent poring over "Freakanomics" in the always hilarious attempt to better understand them Yanks. That's where I first came across this preposterous interpretation of R vs W's effect on America.

Incredibly, when talk does turn to race and politics there are not a few 'liberals' out there who still quite casually imply that it is conservatives (understood here to be a monolithically 'white' demographic) whose social and economic policies are tantamount to attempted 'genocide'.

skipthesong: "If you are going to use that Paline wants kids to abstain from sex, again that shouldn't be a reason......BTW, she is against abortion and her kid is going to have a kid - not abort it. She had a choice and she chose one"

I see you've not changed from contradicting yourself in your posts. You decry people criticizing Palin on the contradiction of the stance of her values and her daughter's out-of-wedlock pregnancy via lack of abstinence, then defend her in the same post -- thereby going against your very own 'who cares' kind of post! Sad, skippy.... sad.

ColAmerica: I thought one comment you made earlier today was one of the most objective and interesting of the whole lot on this thread. Not so with this one, or the 'elsection', as you put it. There is NO WAY in hell McCain is walking away from this and being elected into the White House... hell, I'll be surprised if the stress he has caused himself let's him walk away from a stroke.

His choice, good or bad, has stirred up more controversy, scandal, and investigation within less than a week than anything on Obama, and now Obama looks like the good boy for asking media to back off said scandals. Positive politics, while slower than negative, works better in the end.

Are you serious? This gets a headline in JapanToday? John Edward's love child didn't even get a sentence, and an engaged 17-year-old woman gets a headline?

smithinjapan; Buddy, take a look at the polls and see what the independents are saying.

McCain is gonna walk this elsection, with the easiest win since Reagan, Mondale.

Palin`s daughter has nothing to with this election, and will not make voters change to the Dems.

As for myself, hell yes I am going after the GOP on this for their hypocrisy." O has already made a "back off" statement. But, what has a member of the GOP in this particular case to warrant what you claim as hypocrisy? If you are going to use that Paline wants kids to abstain from sex, again that shouldn't be a reason. Even if her kid has sex at a young age, there are more factors in kids lives than that of their parents. When was the last time you listened to your parents? BTW, she is against abortion and her kid is going to have a kid - not abort it. She had a choice and she chose one.. Pro Choice..... And just what should she have done anyway? And nowadays, with basically every movie making a statement that it's cool to have sex, vids with kids mimicking sex on MTV.. Once a kid leaves a house, you don't have control on them until they return home.

And Paline is probably dealing with it better than many of us right here. Speaking for myself, I would have kicked my daughter out of the house.

If you want to say its hypocrisy because of something her kid does, then why is it not fair game to include the Rev. Wright's hatred of America when one of his followers is trying to get its highest seat?

So, the next president, Obama, has spoken. He says back off so MF'er, back the hell off.

This election is finished before it began, and McCain has only himself to blame. He brought on the 'negative politics' that he swore to god he would not use (since it was used against him for bush to get the nomination ever so long ago), and now it's more than biting him in the a$$.

javnation

Please enlighten us with the quote and reference in which Obama tried to score some political points. As for myself, hell yes I am going after the GOP on this for their hypocrisy. You are incorrect about Obama but I will not be holding my breath for your retraction.

Those like Obama that may try to score some political points from this are just weak.

Almost as weak as people who make stuff up.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/01/obama-back-palin-family/

mar4eO - Barack Obama has very wisely defended a woman's right to choose, which is what the decision in Roe vs Wade blessed your freedom-loving nation with. The major consequence of Roe vs Wade has been a substantial reduction in unwanted and neglected children, which has in turn led to a gradual but sustained fall in the crime rate in the US (the same trends can be seen in other western countries as well). Nothing to do with Giuliana's feted "get tough" judicial policy or anything at all - just pure demographics.

Terminating foetuses (not "infanticide" as you cruelly, but deliberately, mislabel it) is a beneficial process for society as a whole. Dinosaurs like Palin (now with illegitimate grandchild on the way - shock, horror) would take all of those positive developments away from society and women in the USA, if they get their way. And all the time they take your rights away, they'll tell you like Bush has told you, just how "pro-freedom" they are. THAT's hypocrisy

Small things occupy the minds of small people. Parents cannot control their children 100% of the time and teenagers will make mistakes. What is important is that families come together to support each other. Those like Obama that may try to score some political points from this are just weak. Wish he would give as much though to some original "change" policies.

Jav

sorry, but even though...

Is this some new trend in political discourse? Ignore the other side's points, then ramble on with so many logical fallacies and bizarre assertions that the opposition simple surrenders out of frustration?

Enough with the hypotheticals. Deal with what's actually happening.

Look, if you people are going to judge who you vote for because something their adult in many places kids are going to do, then I pity you.

Don't be disingenuous. She's pushing a method that she couldn't get to work in her own family. It's not Bristol's actions that are the bone of contention here.

If find myself judging candidates lately but what I read from bloggers.

That's...not a coherent sentence. I THINK you're trying to say that you're judging candidates by what bloggers say about them.

Now, if that's true, then you have no room to judge :P

**The daughter, and the baby's father, have taken responsibility and will have the baby. ***

They have NOT taken the responsibility. They will if they actually educate the brat, which is far for being done. The mother Sarah has abandoned the special need Trig baby 2 days after his birth and has not taken a day off since then to take care of him. If that sets the example...

I'm not organizing a tatemae kekkon between 2 teenagers unable to economically support themselves and even less a baby is a good thing. No matter who decided it. Obviously, they have been forced by the rumors and without that Bristol would have been playing the nice virgin daughter on stage until the election (which she was never forced to do, she could have had the decency to stay at home).

"What is wrong with teaching people to abstain?"

The lack of teachers willing to show how to do it. Sarah had a dekichatta kekkon herself. Most American abstinence gurus end up being caught sleeping around.

But well, people like Palin ruling a country appeals to anyone ?

Everyone. I apologize. I just caught this: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/obama-to-media.html

Obama does have class. He says back off!

Good, back to voting for him, regardless what you groupies try to push me away. Real Class man. You all should try it.

Since mar4eO finally provided a link I took the time to transcribe the entire video.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo

I goodDonkey personally transcribed the following from the link provided:

When it comes to . . .[clapping] When it comes to specifically to HIV/Aids the most important prevention is education [clapping] which should include .... .[clapping] which should include abstinence only education . . .include abstinence education [clapping] and that teaching children . . . teaching children you know that sex is not something casual but it should include . . ..[clapping] it should also include you know other information about contraception because look I've got two daughters 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals but if they make a mistake I don't want them punished with a baby, I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16 you know so it does not make sense to not give them information. [clapping] You still want to teach them the morals and the values to make good decisions.

Sounds quite a bit different then the context mar4eO was inferring. He even advocates abstinence education. He slips and says abstinence only and then corrects himself.

sorry, but even though I am against many things on the right, I have to laugh as almost watching desperation. Paline's was pick as VP and where on CNN, ABC, NBC was this news? Well, it wasn't on top. But today, now, if you look at cnn, you will see this story of this pregnancy listed as no. 2 top news!

Unbelievable. Look, if you people are going to judge who you vote for because something their adult in many places kids are going to do, then I pity you.

And yes, if this was flipped and it was Obama's girl being punished with being pregnant, you know you all would have been yelling some sort of racism.

If find myself judging candidates lately but what I read from bloggers. Far too many of you have been turning people off Obama simply because of blogs like this one today.

So from now on, a standard is set. Every time any politician, dem or repub gets caught with his pants down, no longer can you say "its really none of you business, that's an internal discussion and you should respect Bill and Hill's private matters!" You all jump up in support for Chelsea's Clinton's remarks when asked about her mom and dad, and even though she got the question completely wrong, she said "its basically none of your business ... " Oh, how the groupies on JT came out saying yeah yeah go Chealsea..." now where are you today?

So, judging this lady by what her kid did.. Oh, I hereby now judge Obama for his pastor of 20 years (Yes, my dad was white and I don't like the idea of putting a guy who hates whites in the white house), a black guy who doesn't select a Hispanic for VP (yes, I have the best of both worlds), I hereby judge Obama for his connections with that Ayers dude and the Rizko dude. I hereby judge Obama for what his daughter may become..

I wasn't arguing anything.

Oh, come on. You're telling me you had no point? Do you know what the word "arguing" means?

Barack Obama was. And his words followed, logically one could say, from his documented actions - his indisputable support for infanticide while he was still in the Illinois legislature.

...which you interpret in a certain way, and which you presented to us with the clear intention of proving something.

His stance on abortion is not relevant to this discussion.

What. Did. You. Think. He. Was. Trying. To. Say? Why is this question so...challenging for you?

And there's nothing wrong with the word "abortion." Use your words.

"Infanticide" is when a child is killed after birth.

Facts do not become optional or irrelevant just because you've convinced yourself of something.

Not one post. Instead, we get inane comments about what Barack Obama said regarding a hypothetical situation.

That is a common tactic by most humans when they or the folks they support are in trouble they will point to something else to attempt to defect or change the direction of the discussion.

But in this case they are bird caged, trapped in a closed room with no where to run.

Good Old Mc is lucky that there is a cane causing a little truble. Just wait till this cane leaves and Mc has to answer somethings. Like, "what the hell were you thinking?"

Y'know, I'm trying to give you credit, but that was flat out moronic.

I don't need your credit. And yes, if you choose to drink and then chose to drive punishment may come in the form of a crash, jail time and even death.

It's all about choices and responsibilty.

Are you arguing that he intended to say that a pregnancy is necessarily a punishment?

I wasn't arguing anything. Barack Obama was. And his words followed, logically one could say, from his documented actions - his indisputable support for infanticide while he was still in the Illinois legislature.

You know, I would think our resident gop'ers would be trying to put the focus back on their own convention.

Not one post. Instead, we get inane comments about what Barack Obama said regarding a hypothetical situation.

I'm pointing as I laugh.

Taka

So...how's the convention going?

Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?

Taka

Barack Obama on video, explaining that he is all about ethics and morals but wouldn't want one of his daughters, if still a teen, to be "punished with a baby". You know, like his own mother was...

Y'know, I'm trying to give you credit, but that was flat out moronic.

The consequences of mistakes are punishments. If I drink and drive, I may be punished with permanent injury (or death) from a car crash. If a teenager makes a stupid decision, the punishment may be an unplanned, unwanted child.

There is nothing wrong with making this point.

Are you arguing that he intended to say that a pregnancy is necessarily a punishment? Because that's unsupportable, childish, and logically unsound.

I love it when someone totally clueless says, "What is wrong with teaching people to abstain?" The issue is clearly one that has been offered ad nauseum by the Democrats because ignorant people or people only interested in offering a Straw Man defense misstate the issue. Democrats are not against offering abstinence as an option but they are clear that it should not be offered as the only option that should be available to teens seeking birth control advice. Democrats have been advising kids to consider abstinence just as long as the Republicans. Democrats are not ignorant enough to even consider that as the only option. I don't know why I bother to explain. "[H]omosexuality is good. Illegitimate birth is perfectly fine" are clear examples of Straw Man fallacies used to misrepresent the liberal and/or Democratic positions. Those who believe logical fallacies will prevail are only displaying their ignorance.

Sarge, do you know what 'bristol' means in Cockney rhyming slang? Not the best of names for a girl, I would have thought.

Barack Obama on video, explaining that he is all about ethics and morals but wouldn't want one of his daughters, if still a teen, to be "punished with a baby".

You know, like his own mother was...

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=GbZJYWjkAPo

"Bristol"

I like that name. In fact, all of Sarah's kids have interesting names: Track, Bristol, Willow, Piper and Trig!

Astonishing how quickly down the Memory Hole went John F Kerry's disgusting...

You have legitimate questions directed at you in this thread. Enough with the distractions.

"...given the GOP's use of homophobia to get people to the polls, they always put their lesbian daughter's privacy first."

Astonishing how quickly down the Memory Hole went John F Kerry's disgusting and completely gratuitous mention of Cheney's daughter, in a nationally televised presidential debate no less:

"Well, I think if you ask Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian..."

The father is Bristol Palin's boyfriend of more than one year.

Nobody doubts that the McCain team got that story. The question is what did they do to verify it? Did they meet with the boy and come away confident he is in fact the father?

It's very strange the mother, Governor Palin, whose teenage daughter everybody now knows is pregnant, protected the boy, giving nothing beyond his name is "Levi," while having no qualms about subjecting her own child to the full brunt of national publicity.

What is wrong with teaching people to abstain?

If it works, nothing.

It doesn't work. Hence, there's a LOT wrong with it.

Teaching it in conjunction with other information is fine. It's that "only" thing that sticks in people's craw.

Additionally, you all know if it were the Obama's and blah blah blah

Don't be a child. There's plenty of real life situations to deal with. There's no need to create something to feel self righteous about over what some vague group of whoever might do if some similar situation were to occur...

He has stated publicly that should one of his daughters get pregnant at sixteen he doesn't want them "punished with a baby."

mar4eO, you are printing lies again. Provide the quote and the source or be exposed.

You know folks, whenever you start to dance everyone wears two shoes. I am waiting for the second shoe to drop........Bad news always comes in threes......Knowing good old Mc and his bad decision making there should be a third one coming real soon.<BG>

May I ask: Palin is a fanatic of abstinence only education." What is wrong with teaching people to abstain? I don't think trying to convince someone is preaching. If that is the case, then the left has a lot of answer.. like preaching homosexuality is good. Illegitimate birth is perfectly fine. Welfare mothers deserve better, even after four or five kids.

Now that I have a kid, I am sure most of you don't, I think I would prefer to teach her more in the lines of waiting until the right moment - because she ain't back in my house pregnant.

Additionally, you all know if it were the Obama's and someone on the other side made even the slightest mention, you know it will be something like "Oh, there they go again, pouncing on blacks and blah blah."

Contrast the coverage this is getting with the mainstream media's reluctance to cover the unplanned pregnancy of John Edwards.

The Edwards incident still has quite a bit of doubt. Andrew Young has taken responsibility for the pregnancy. The lack of reporting is most likely due to this, and concern over libel.

Do 'liberals' actually think that young, media-savvy American voters don't notice the hypocrisy?

Frankly, most of them are so used to alarmist, poorly informed, partisan BS like this that they roll their eyes at the "liberal media" whine.

Groups like PETA, Greenpeace, etc. have good ideas at heart. But the blatant lack of emotional maturity in those groups undercuts their message so thoroughly that they're stuck preaching to the converted. There's a similar problem with the "oh noes LIBERAL MEDIA!!!!!" crowd. Things aren't as clear cut as you'd have us believe. Sorry.

The relationship and the unplanned pregnancy were 'open secrets' in the Anchorage exburb where Gov. Palin's daughter is finishing her last year of high school.

There's a real fear that there's something not quite right here. What parent, after all, would announce her unwed teenage daughter's pregnancy to a national audience? While one can call the Cheneys hypocrites, and I have for the record, given the GOP's use of homophobia to get people to the polls, they always put their lesbian daughter's privacy first. And that's the way it should be.

mar4e0: Edwards isn't running for President or VP.

There is an up-side to this; if it hurts McCain and Co. to the point where he loses the election, as seems more and more likely as not even a week has passed but the scandals role out, the girl can have her child and be forgotten. Poor girl.

Because her daughter did not practice the morals her mother advocates, does not mean Palin is a hypocrite.

Correct. But that's not what I said. She positions abstinence only education as the ONLY solution to the teen pregnancy problem when in her personal life that has shown not to be the case. When you say something publicly that you know in your private life isn't true then you are a hypocrite.

This will have no effect on people`s vote, rest assured.

Mostly. I think it tanks most of the hopes of stealing Clinton votes. It won't sway religious right voters.

However, I'm pretty sure she's going to be the Harriet Myers of the campaign. Her lack of experience will result in a flub.

Question: If it had been one of Obama's daughters who'd become pregnant as an unmarried high-schooler, would any of you, on the right or left, change the statements you've posted above?

I think the question is would Barack Obama change his position. He has stated publicly that should one of his daughters get pregnant at sixteen he doesn't want them "punished with a baby."

Yes. I don't think anybody in the DNC would be worried this pregnancy was the result of rape or incest (these fears are now percolating in Republican circles). Palin was virtually unknown to the national GOP apparatus (and Alaska is far away). The only vetting she got was from McCain's team so she's a much less well known quantity than Obama.

Fears of rape and incest?

The father is Bristol Palin's boyfriend of more than one year.

The relationship and the unplanned pregnancy were 'open secrets' in the Anchorage exburb where Gov. Palin's daughter is finishing her last year of high school.

Photos of the father are up on Drudge.

McCain knew.

He still chose Gov Palin.

Contrast the coverage this is getting with the mainstream media's reluctance to cover the unplanned pregnancy of John Edwards.

Do 'liberals' actually think that young, media-savvy American voters don't notice the hypocrisy?

Question: If it had been one of Obama's daughters who'd become pregnant as an unmarried high-schooler, would any of you, on the right or left, change the statements you've posted above?

Well, do Obama or Biden have a history of pushing laughably unworkable plans concerning teen pregnancy, even in the face of complete failure in their OWN FAMILY? If yes, then my above point would still stand.

If no, then it would be irrelevant.

Not every point is based on partisanship.

I couldn't care less what the daughter does, but you have to question the judgement of someone who names their child "Bristol".

Maybe I should rename my son "Stechford"?

Question: If it had been one of Obama's daughters who'd become pregnant as an unmarried high-schooler, would any of you, on the right or left, change the statements you've posted above?

Yes. I don't think anybody in the DNC would be worried this pregnancy was the result of rape or incest (these fears are now percolating in Republican circles). Palin was virtually unknown to the national GOP apparatus (and Alaska is far away). The only vetting she got was from McCain's team so she's a much less well known quantity than Obama.

The Gallup Poll's daily tracking service never sleeps: The Labor Day poll shows Barack Obama leads John McCain 49-43 percent. The bottom line: No big bump (yet) for McCain's pick of Sarah Palin as his vice presidential nominee.

http://voices.kansascity.com/node/1967

I would be surprised if the Palin scandal increases Obama's lead but even if Barack's lead were to hold throughout the convention it would be magnificent.

Question: If it had been one of Obama's daughters who'd become pregnant as an unmarried high-schooler, would any of you, on the right or left, change the statements you've posted above?

goodDonkey - I wasn't arguing that it did prove Palin's point (because it is plainly unrealistic to think that you can stop teenagers from having sex by preaching abstinence). She might, however, argue that her daughter wouldn't have been pregnant if she had abstained from having sex, which, she would say, proves her point. My point is that while you can call Palin completely misguided on matters of social policy (what do you expect when someone refers to a 2,000-year-old book of fairy tales for guidance on morality...?) you can't call Palin a hypocrite for something that her daughter chose to do.

No one has ever, ever said that if you abstain you can still get pregnant.

Good point to clarify. There's no woman in the world, unless she joined a nunnery as an adolescent and abstained from all sexual activity, who hasn't at some point confronted the prospect of an unplanned pregnancy (given the reproductive years stretch over several decades).

The difference for Bristol is that there's no indication she was ever given information on contraception. The Right thinks if kids know about contraception it will make them more likely to have sex. The Left knows sex without contraception dramatically increases the odds of pregnancy.

Because her daughter did not practice the morals her mother advocates, does not mean Palin is a hypocrite.

Fair enough.

It DOES leave the door wide open for a perfectly valid criticism, though. If she can't make these ideas work within her own family, she clearly possesses neither the aptitude or the moral right to push it on other people.

Abstinence only education is laughably ineffective. As pointed out, Palin is a strong advocate, and there's a failure right under her nose, by a kid SHE RAISED. If you think this is insignificant, there's no getting through to you.

If you can't make something work privately, you have no ethical right to take charge of it publicly. This is common sense so blatantly obvious it makes my teeth hurt.

frontandcentre

It does not prove her point. The Republican point is preaching abstinence is an effective means of birth control. No one has ever, ever said that if you abstain you can still get pregnant. Use some common sense! Palin has purportedly used that advice and it did not work.

I repeat no Democrat has ever said that abstinence does not work. Advocating abstinence does not work as a means of birth control.

Upon reflection, I can sure see why the GOP is worried. In Palin matriarch's view, abortion is never justified under any circumstances. That opens the door to a lot disturbing prospects over who Bristol's baby's father might in fact be. She could have been impregnated by a male family member or the pregnancy could have resulted from a violent sexual encounter. These are not pleasant thoughts but I'm sure there's more than a few in the GOP who've "gone there."

motytrah - why is Palin a hypocrite? She might argue that her daughter has help to prove her point (not that I would agree)

My my not a week has passed and more and more dirt is brewing up to the surface. Funny how good Old Mc knew of this little surprise before Palin`s own people did.

What is next, her finger prints on Vince Fosters gun? Opps wrong story....

Let us see,

She did not know what the VP job was.

Next trooper gate part II, I just loved the way her office went after her ex-brother in-law, real blood thirsty! She went after him like a large cat chasing a small mouse. Using the ful power of her office to get the man fired, NICE.

Now we have her daughter knocked up with a 5 month old bun in the oven. Gooooooooo family values!LOL

What is next, shoot we have not even got to week 2 yet! This is getting better by the day!

I vote for a dead guy in buried in the back yard.LOL

Good old MC he makes some great decisions! LOL

It's rather odd the father of this baby has not stepped forward. If he's the man those on the Right claim him to be, namely someone willing to assume his responsibilities (instead of allowing Bristol to face the harsh glare of publicity alone), why hide? This leads me to believe he may have been over the age of 18 at the time of conception, making him eligible for a charge of statutory rape.

What the GOP is worried about is further unsavory details about the Palin family. The McCain team knew about Bristol's pregnancy, but everyone else was caught off guard. Surprises are not welcome in this business of getting people elected and they worry the identity of the baby's father, and it will come out, might lead to greater unpleasant revelations.

goodDonkey -

You're right, it seems it's not the left that are calling the girl promiscuous. Still, they are going to play it for all they're worth in terms of the mother's hypocrisy, lack of leadership, etc. and it's going to be poor Bristol who suffers most, in her precarious position of public scrutiny that she didn't choose. The party of 'family values' thinks it's OK to put a young girl through that?

Not my idea of family values.

(Oh, and both spellings of floozie/floozy (also floosie) are acceptable according to Webster) :-)

I'm not saying Bristol Palin is promiscuous - none of us (presumably) know enough about that to comment. I'm not even saying it's a mistake - perhaps it's what she wants anyway. Hopefully so. But if she was due to give birth in February or March rather than December, do you think that they would admit this now?

I'd say - of course not.

I agree with goodDonkey.

I don`t think any decent folk on th e left will make a big issue about this.

Many kids make this kind of mistake in their lives, don`t punish the parents for it. Surely by supporting her daughter, she is showing her christian values, and is not a hypocrite.

cleo said:

to the left she's an ignorant , uneducated bed-hopping floozie [floozy] who proves that her mother is unfit to lead.

I must take issue with that comment. I believe you will find very few on the left who demonize the daughter. I would ask why Sarah and the party should not be cited for hypocrisy. I think you will find the vast majority of the right saying exactly what you said:

To the right, she's an upright, conscientious young Christian girl who made one mistake with the man she loves but then did the right thing

If we on the left are to be condemned let it be due to the issue of hypocrisy in which we are touting; not condemnation of Bristol which we are not.

motytrah; Palin is certainly no hypocrite. She is open about her daughter`s situation.

Because her daughter did not practice the morals her mother advocates, does not mean Palin is a hypocrite.

This will have no effect on people`s vote, rest assured.

Who cares! Every politician has their baggage and its just a matter of time before it gets out in the open. If this kind of story will have an influence on the outcome of an election in any country its complete stupidity. Being rich and powerful is far worse.

grasps on English

Wow, I'm really losing my grasps of English. Who, not you.

Palin is a fanatic of abstinence only education. She wants it to be the law of the land. That's why she's a hypocrite.

You cares? I say this is as a hardcore lefty, leave their families alone. Leave them out of the news. Shame on those bloggers. Shame on those who try to use one's family and friends as political pawns.

Now her 17 y.o daughter is promiscuous little you know what and is going to have a baby?

I am goodDonkey and I do not approve of that message. I am against abstinence programs because they do not prevent teen pregnancy; contraceptive methods are vastly more effective. When I made reference to babies having babies I was very clear that Republicans consistently speak out against teen pregnancy and unwed mothers. The truth is that I do not want to cast any shame on Palin's daughter. Shame on the mother! She put her daughter in a humiliating position exactly like Betzee said previously. My point was that the Republicans are total hypocrites they have condemned parents often in the past for doing a bad job with their children when they have an unwed child in their teens. They have railed for abstinence programs and in fact two years ago used it in a plank in their platform. So we must conclude that either Palin did not deliver the message of abstinence or it does not work. Republicans have repeatedly shown this level of hypocrisy. They changed the rules in the House of Reps. to accommodate Tom Delay so that he could remain in a leadership position after he was indicted. The truth came out and he had to step down in disgrace. There are plenty more examples but I chose to list only the most blatant. They want all these rules but those rules do not apply to them. I feel sorry for Bristol and wish her the best. As far as I am concerned she has put herself in a difficult position not unlike many other teenagers across America. She should not feel ashamed or humiliated but given the circumstances of the level of public exposure I don't know how she can help but experience those emotions to some extent. I also feel sorry for many of the mothers of teens who are pregnant and unwed. They were doing the best job they could and teens can be expected to make decisions that may have less than desirable outcomes. Sarah Palin knew her daughter was pregnant and still accepted the nomination knowing full well that it would put her daughter in a precarious position of public scrutiny. The Republican party must admit that they were hypocrites in chastising parents of unwed teen pregnancies or chastise Sarah. We know they won't because they have a long history of "having it both ways."

fnc -

I think both sides are going to play this for all they can get. To the right, she's an upright, conscientious young Christian girl who made one mistake with the man she loves but then did the right thing; to the left she's an ignorant , uneducated bed-hopping floozie who proves that her mother is unfit to lead.

I suspect she's neither, just a teenage girl who got things wrong while Mom was too busy politikking and having her own baby to take note of what was going on in her family.

Poor Bristol.

So much for McCains bone to the Christian Right.

I'm lovin it.

I didn't notice any indication where she was forced to have this baby. Just because Palin is pro-life doesn't mean she is forcing this birth down her throat. I caught some new Christian talk show on TUV the other day and it was of young people, 17 ~ 22, multi race, both boy and girl, lower mid class. All who decided to go ahead and not get abortions and they all seemed happy with their decisions. If the girl wanted to get one, she could have.

I don't think one should get down on a person for being pro life, which it seems to me many are doing. The same way one shouldn't come down hard someone pro-choice. It basically shouldn't even be a presidential thing. It should stay at the local.

Now her 17 y.o daughter is promiscuous little you know what" I'm going to agree with Cleo on this. Was your girl friend a ho when you were 16 or 17? What person is getting it on by that age in this day and age.

Even so Cleo, the conservative right are going to LOVE this. Perfect timing for the forces of reason, I suspect. You have to wonder whether Bristol Palin actually wanted a termination at any stage or whether her mother brainwashed her into believing that a woman's right to choose was somehow "murder". Which, for the record and needless to say, I think is ludicrous.

What makes you think the daddy will stay around now with all the controversy, "Shotgun wedding" perhaps. But lets spin this around one more time. IF it was Obamas daughter that was knocked up unmarried and a minor I bet the right would be screaming "them people" and what an outrage it would be. Glad things can only be one sided for Mcsame and CO.

Oh and I notice that the christian coalition is just fine with it, what a joke.

Now her 17 y.o daughter is promiscuous little you know what

Do you know the meaning of the word 'promiscuous' or are you just throwing it out there because it sounds dirty?

The girl's 17 and pregnant and going to get married. It happens. Nowhere in the article is there any suggestion of her being a bed-hopper.

Here's what townhall, a right-wing blog site, has posted:

I admire all the Palins' willingness to be forthright about the pregnancy, their championing of pro-life convictions even when they entail personal cost or embarrassment, and their understanding that babies need and deserve to have a father and a mother who are committed to each other in marriage.

In fact nobody really know what Bristol thinks, we've simply heard from her parents about all the support they will provide and their enthusiasm about becoming grandparents. Though she will become a parent herself soon, Bristol has no voice here.

Although, for obvious reasons, this is news that no parents welcome from a 17 year old, it is reassuring to know that, unlike another candidate on the national ticket, Governor and Mr. Palin obviously don't feel that their daughter is being "punished with a baby."

Transparent effort to score a few political points. In fact Bristol has been punished mightily Hester Pryme style, by being identified as a unwed teen in front of the nation.

I hope she can escape to a happy life.

If the boyfriend really cares about her, he cannot be happy to see her put through this for the stake of her mother's political ambitions. I think they should run off to a remote igloo, give birth and resume a private life to which Bristol Palin is entitled.

2008 is the year for change = Obama isn't the most seasoned veteran on the mound either.

McCain should take all of this as a sign. First Gustav arrives near the anniversary of one of the party's most grand failures, the response to Katrina. Then the new, and nearly entirely unknown VP who was clearly selected as a ploy to gain the femine vote, turns out to have an unwed teenage pregnant daughter.

Now I think this makes here very mainstream for the US. Afterall teens get in trouble now and then. But this will most certainly put restrictions on the GOP's usual "we are the moral party" rhetoric and keep the holier than thou nonsense a little more under control.

For me it does not change the fact that I think the new VP is not qualified to be president should McCain expire before his term. Nor does it change that I think McCain would herald another four years of misguided and dangerous policies. But I guarantee you that this will change the thinking of the "moral" right wing who will be shocked, upset and outraged by the potential VP's daughter.

The real sad point here is just how much the poor daughter's life will be wrecked by this. I hope she can escape to a happy life.

She is Pro-Life, so what did you expect?

preachers of abstinence and Christian values have a hard time applying the lessons to their own families." Well, do you think they use a whip and chasity belt?

While its normal for the public to know about something like this, grilling the mother is nuts.. Its not like John Edwards and even Bill Clinton getting on TV and talking about family values. In both of those cases, they themselves did the actions that received criticism, and boy the flack people got for stepping into something that is "no one's business".

I would be very disappointed if Democrat supporters made an issue out of this. The same feeling I had when Repub supporter were grilling Michele Obama and Cindy McCain.. We are electing the people running, not their kids, nor their wives, nor the brothers and sisters. Lastly, who here on this board is old enough to have a 17 year old daughter? My sister put my mother through hell at 16, what makes anyone think they can control a 17 year old girl, from Alaska... like there is anything to do up there.

It looks to me like Palin is anything but a hypocrite.

It looks to me as though you are the only one here who has associated Palin's name with being a hypocrite. Most of us just find it very ironic that the preachers of abstinence and Christian values have a hard time applying the lessons to their own families.

She didn't try to deny it nor did Cheney or his wife. They expressed love for their daughter as she did for them.

In fact they thought their adult, self-supporting lesbian daughter in a long-term partnership might disqualify him. By contrast, being the mother of an unwed, five-months pregnant teenage girl is considered "no big deal" even when the mother advocates "abstinence only" education for high school students.

It looks to me like Palin is anything but a hypocrite. The daughter, and the baby's father, have taken responsibility and will have the baby. If they were having an abortion, then of course there would be a justified charge of hypocricy. As far as Cheney's daughter being a "skeleton" - nothing could be further from the truth. She didn't try to deny it nor did Cheney or his wife. They expressed love for their daughter as she did for them. The savage, false rumors spread by the MoveOn crowd are only acting to turn off moderate Democrats. Perhaps Michael Moore will be able to elect yet another Republican.

I just wonder, as a potential vice-President, what Palin's views will be on unwanted pregnancies among teenagers, which is quite a social problem in the States. Surely it goes against her present religious, evangelical convictions to promote safe sex outside marriage. As the saying goes: Nearest the pulpit, furthest from grace.

As time goes on her choice seems more and more like a really bad decision. Now her 17 y.o daughter is promiscuous little you know what and is going to have a baby? great role model for the nation. At least Dick Cheney the current Rep' V.P only skeleton was a Lesbian daughter - he and his family seem positively "normal" compared to the moose burger eating, gun loving beauty queen with kids named Track, Bristol, Piper, Trig and Willow. McCain only met this woman once before tapping her on the shoulder, but he is already regretting that.

Sarah Palin’s fifth child, a son named Trig, was born in April with Down syndrome. Internet bloggers have been suggesting that the child was actually born to Bristol Palin but that her mother, the 44-year-old Alaska governor, claimed to be the mother.

Palin spokesman Bill McAllister emphatically denied those rumors, and McCain adviser Mark Salter said the campaign announced the daughter’s pregnancy to rebut them.

This seems really bizarre to me.

What a way to kick off a convention.