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GOP vows fight as White House defends health bill

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Democrats said Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson’s announcement Saturday that he would vote for the bill gave them the support they needed. Nelson came in for strong criticism from Republicans in Washington and from abortion opponents at home.

You'd think that Nelson would get a few accolades for trying to keep abortion out of this bill, but they rail on Nelson.

It's amazing to see the disservice they are doing for the downtrodden. Do they think that none of their constituents need a health care bill? The republicans would do anything or say anything no matter how false to keep this legislation from going through. I know I talk to people all the time who are so optimistic that this bill passes and they aren't all democrats.

But try to put an end to war and the republicans stand up and fight you tooth and nail. They like war. Especially unfunded wars without raising taxes to pay for it. Bunch of hypocrites. < :-)

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Forcing people to buy a product/service from private companies is fascist economics.

Obama campaigned on a "promise" of real election reform and a ban on corporate lobbying. So when can voters expect democrat politicians to pass something that really puts the people ahead of corporate interests?

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If the bill goes through. This protects everybody.

If you don't have or can't afford to buy health insurance, the government is going to help you.

If you need health care, you can't be prevented from getting it.

If you can't buy health care insurance because of a precondition, now you can.

If someone (not illegals) goes to the emergence room for service, when they leave it's been primarily paid for by insurance. No more walking out without paying because you don't have money in the bank. You pay for insurance. Now my taxes don't go to the hospitals to pay for non-payers.

55 year olds can buy into Medicare.

It just keeps going.

Will Corporate America continue to get the tax breaks they have enjoyed for years, every time a republicans control the congress. < :-)

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Forcing people to buy a product/service from private companies is fascist economics.

States require car owners/drivers to have car insurance. < :-)

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If the bill goes through. This protects everybody.

Including undocumented residents. The next time someone cuts in line at a movie be sure to buy their ticket, too.

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States require car owners/drivers to have car insurance.

States do. Not the federal government. (rolleyes)

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The end of this process represents a big blunder by the Republicans, who have allowed the Tea Baggers to hijack their party. That segement of the right wing didn't want ANY health care reform.

Republican intransigence has allowed the Democrats to muster 60 votes in the Senate for what will prove to be a much larger bill than what would have occured if just a few of them had been willing to compromise. Give the Democrats great credit for realizing that all the so-called moderate Republicans wanted to do was to drag the process out endlessly.

Getting 60 votes is a great achievement.

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The Obama Memorial Healthcare Scam is like paying for couple years first for a new car we buy. After the certain number of years of paying we can finally use the car and continue to pay for it.

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If someone (not illegals) goes to the emergence room for service, when they leave it's been primarily paid for by insurance. No more walking out without paying because you don't have money in the bank. You pay for insurance. Now my taxes don't go to the hospitals to pay for non-payers.

adaydream, so if illegals don't have money and go to the Emerg room, then who still pays. Also, if you have no money in the bank now to pay for your visit, then where will the money come from to pay for the insurance premiums?

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if illegals don't have money and go to the Emerg room, then who still pays.

Obama's unicorns because the money will not be coming from democrat tax cheats like Geithier.

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So when can voters expect democrat politicians to pass something that really puts the people ahead of corporate interests?

When the handful of Democrats who act like moderate Republicans decide to stop doing so. It is said that corporate interests borrow Democrats while they own the Republicans.

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You said.

Forcing people to buy a product/service from private companies is fascist economics.

It matters none whether it's federal or state, it's still being forced to buy a product.

Alphaape They will still get serviced I guess by the ER, but not through this bill. They get taken care of by city, charity and a number of other avenues. So when the hospital gets paid for his service it won't be with a health insurance card or this bill. < :-)

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" if illegals don't have money and go to the Emerg room, then who still pays."

The other people using the hospital do. One reason that medical costs are so high is that prices for everything are calculated to cover the costs of people who don't pay. If "someone/government" guarantees payment for all care, even for illegals, then we can all get back to paying for the care we receive. It sounds so so unfair until you realize that illegals are not coming in every day with gunshot wounds and drug addiction. They come to the US to work. So they work. The cost they do give is a tiny part of what hospitals have to deal with. The main thing is that hospitals won't have to bother with worrying about who is going to pay. That is a benefit for everyone.

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5SpeedRacer5, no illegals are not getting shot everyday, but they are going to hospitals for minor ailments that clog up the system and plus they have no method to pay. There was an article in the LA Times recently about such a group who were getting dialysis treatments. They even stated in the article that they could not get that kind of care in Mexico, so they came to America to get it because they know it is free.

They get taken care of by city, charity and a number of other avenues. So when the hospital gets paid for his service it won't be with a health insurance card or this bill. < :-)

adaydream, if this was the case, then the King Memorial Hospital in LA would not have closed. For years, it was a hospital in South Central LA that was the main place where the poor in LA went for treatment (that is poor blacks, whites, and others who were US and non-US). But over the past few years, increased usage by illegal aliens in the ER, and the poor being unable to pay (along with some shady medical goings on there) forced it to close. Why, LA County could not afford to keep the center open due to incresed operating costs. So, local communities that are now letting people out of jail early and delaying hiring vital services like police officers due to decreasing revenues from taxes are now going to keep forking over money to hospitals? I can understand if the poor that were coming for treatment were US citizens, but the illegals, I can't support.

Just do a search on how many hospitals in border states have closed. It doesn't take a "right wing" nut to see that it is a burden that is doing more harm than good.

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Alphaape I don't doubt a thing you just posted. I'm just saying that illegal aliens won't have their health care funded by this bill.

There are a number of hospitals that have closed because they went broke. But at least through this bill, Americans that can't afford health care or refuse to buy it will have health care insurance and they will get service and their bill will be paid. < :-)

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adaydream, even though I am just a lowly taxper who may lean to the right on some issues, I would have proposed the following:

Tort reform to limit malpractice suits and reform of the malpractice insurance reform the insurnace companies to penalize them for denying people with pre-existing conditions and for taking people off when they get sick. treat illegals, but for the hospitals to send the bills to the Federal Govt. for presenting to their countries of origins. If those countries do not pay, then cut the amount of Foreign aid to those countries by the amount that is charged by the hospitals. In other words, for all the costs that illegals cost the US taxpayer, then before any foreign aid is sent out, that amount is sent to the local communities that had incurred the costs. So if illegals came, then they could get treatment, but their governments will pay.

That's what I would do. I see the health insurance plans are going to be just like the scam that is in place for the flood insurance. You have to have it in certain places, but insurers won't pay claims on it, they just leave it up to the Gov't to pay for it.

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Well before that can be done we have to do something about the illegals first and I don't see that happening very quick.

I see where you're coming from but I think that most countries would just say, can't or won't pay and then send the bill back. As long as we bow down to other countries and grovel at there demands, that will never happen.

I'm not doubting your ideas, but... < :-)

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The democrats have complete, total and absolute control of the federal government. It has been proven that democrats can pass anthing they want even if every single republican votes against it, It has happened more than once now: the budget, health care reform, stimulus, bailouts, and so on rest with the democrats and democrats only.

There is nobody else to blame. Liberals trying to blame republicans now are just playing stupid. Or maybe they aren't playing. This is the only good thing about democrats having the super majority. The nation knows who's in charge. And republicans ain't the ones.

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Under the Barack Hussein Obama Memorial Healthcare Scam it'll be three years of tax hikes without any benefits. Sure hope the SC stops this nonsense.

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This is the same GOP that fought tooth and nail to protect foreign tax havens, that worked tirelessly to create more debt for Americans than any other administration in history, and that has been pushing hard to protect the profits of insurance companies and Wall St fat cats, while blocking ordinary uninsured Americans from ever having access to health insurance they have.

This GOP is arguably the most anti-American political party in American history.

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I can't wait to set up my own insurance company.... thank you!

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Props to Harry Reid and the courageous Democrats. First of 3 stages to pass the bill in cloture will be done at 1 AM. I dont know why, exactly. Probably for the same reason that the 2 700 page had to be written in secret, and its contents kept from the public.

Wingers would revolt.

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seijichuudo9sha - " First of 3 stages to pass the bill in cloture will be done at 1 AM. I dont know why, exactly."

It was purely because the GOP was throwing up every procedural hurdle in the book to prevent the vote, and still failed.

The party of blocking got their heads smacked.

That's funny. :-)

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It was purely because the GOP was throwing up every procedural hurdle in the book to prevent the vote, and still failed.

Please. You diminish the historical import of this victory for the common people.if anything, it was held at one AM for teh same reason that we literally locked the repubs out of many of the first meetings on this bill:politics is civil war. We want to destroy our repub opponents and we dont really care if they or the stupid proles in the voting public give a damn,. people voted for wealth distribution. By force, if necessary. And theyre gonna get it.

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people voted for wealth distribution. By force, if necessary. And theyre gonna get it." Oh, well ok then. Screw working any more. If you are just gonna give everything. do you think Nancy is gonna give up her huge vineyard? I'd like to have a piece of that and since you are on that point, all you guys living in those nice neighborhoods, hey I want your cars, playstions, jewlery, etc..

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The democrats have complete, total and absolute control of the federal government. It has been proven that democrats can pass anthing they want even if every single republican votes against it, It has happened more than once now: the budget, health care reform, stimulus, bailouts, and so on rest with the democrats and democrats only.

Really? Then how come there is no public option in the health care bill if Democrats have such complete and total control?

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You diminish the historical import of this victory for the common people.if anything, it was held at one AM for teh same reason that we literally locked the repubs out of many of the first meetings on this bill:politics is civil war.

LOL!! The Republicans took their opportunity to rail against the bill all weekend long. They were never interested in any kind of health care reform for the American people.

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Not satisfied with the 8 years they had of wrecking the U.S. economy, ramming through way too many massive bills after midnight and bringing the US economy to its knees, the GOP's latest exhibition of anti-American fervor highlights to anyone who still had doubts that the party of Reagan is now no more than a cornered, embattled extremist version of its former self.

The GOP is united in its opposition to bills that will benefit Americans - just look how hard they pushed back against the Democrat bills that helped close down offshore tax havens, clean up the air through higher vehcicle emissions standards, or how strongly they are opposed to mandatory CO2 emmission cuts that might give their grandkids cleaner air.

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They were never interested in any kind of health care reform for the American people." You are right, but guess what, a whole lot of Dems weren't either!!!!

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I only wish my senator had held out like Bernie Sanders did. He got Vermont 500 million.

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You are right, but guess what, a whole lot of Dems weren't either!!!!

You are wrong about that, as the events of this weekend and this coming week prove.

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Liberals,

Shut up and start shopping.

Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, with subsidies available to help families making up to $88,000 in income afford the cost.

Great bill.......Blue Shield and Blue Cross just got your business.

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"White House defends health bill"

This health bill is indefensible.

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sarge: "This health bill is indefensible."

So give us an alternative. Oh wait... your party and ilk can't, and never could -- hence you were shown the door. All you guys are good at is making lame one-liners to defend the people who object to everyone having health care, including the more than 50 million Americans who have none.

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skipthesong

all you guys living in those nice neighborhoods, hey I want your cars, playstions, jewlery, etc..

A lot of the people you dis are looking forward to getting health care. There are many more people who have and can afford all those toys have health care. It's nice they can afford those things. It would be nice if the poor could get health care. Be allowed to buy health care for preexisting conditions.

It's usually not the ones living in good neighborhoods that are having problems getting health care insurance. < :-)

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Write the laws in secret , and pass them in the dark, as most of the country sleeps. I have never been prouder of my party. The country voted for wealth redistribution, and Barack, Nancy, and Harry are going to make sure that is what will come to pass.

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Actually smith they did give an alternative you just didn't like it.

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Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance, with subsidies available to help families making up to $88,000 in income afford the cost.

Too funny!

And we know what the best fix is for that: Something called the "public option." Which NO Republican wanted to consider.

Of course the conservatives don't have a leg to stand on here. They whine at the prospect of "government takeover" of health care and whine when it's completely in the hands of private insurance companies. Nothing but a bunch of ignorant, sorry whiners.

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Actually smith they did give an alternative you just didn't like it.

LOL!! The "alternative" -- and this is typical of Republican "solutions" -- did absolutely nothing to address the real problems with the current system.

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Write the laws in secret , and pass them in the dark, as most of the country sleeps. I have never been prouder of my party.

Yeah, that Tom DeLay was really something.

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Democratic Sen Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island responded in near-Biblical terms. In a speech on the Senate floor, he said Republicans are embarked on a “no-holds barred mission of propaganda, obstruction and fear. ... There will be a reckoning. There will come a day of judgment about who was telling the truth.”

Democrats can be very proud for the way they are standing up to the sleazy, lying Republicans.

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All I can add it that all of this sounds just grand on paper to liberals; they love it because their party supports the health care bill. Gonna finally teach those evil republicans who have no conscience and no soul that we shall triumph. 30 million who don't have health care will get it, man. Power to the people. Take care of the poor and those who can't take care of themselves.

After your done hugging yourselves and singing a rousing version of Kum-Bay-Ya, can someone tell me who's going to pay for all of this? The answer is of course that we all will, through taxes. So me, as middle class (he says laughingly) joe who might pay $100 per paycheck for family coverage now could pay more under the new scheme (or the same perhaps) BUT get the pleasure of paying for 30 million of my fellow Americans who don't have coverage for whatever reason by paying more in taxes to support this program. And/or does the payment to doctors remain the same, or does it lessen in this plan. What I'm getting at is, is the quality of my healthcare going to diminish as the price for it goes up (which seems to be the case in the Canadian/European models). Add to this the President's stimulus package spending, and oh boy I'm being taxed into non-existance. The democratic way! Can you assure me that I won't be paying for the healthcare of illegal immigrants? Propably not. Can you assure me that I won't be paying more in premiums? Probably not. Can you assure me that the quality of my healthcare will remain at it's current level? Probably not. And I can assure myself that I will pay more in taxes.

So, can you see how maybe some have a problem with this? I'm betting that five or ten years into this effort, some of you die-hard liberals are going to have a problem with it as well. When your'e working, struggling to feel a family - having more of your money taken to help someone else - while perhaps noble in intent - is a bitter pill to swallow.

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It's pathetic how Politifact choice Palin's lie as Lie of the Year. Just another bold faced lie from the republicans trying to stop the health care bill and those Americans who can't afford health care. < :-)

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/dec/18/politifact-lie-year-death-panels/

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All I can add it that all of this sounds just grand on paper to liberals; they love it because their party supports the health care bill.

Wrong! Party is not the motivation of most liberals that I know. We will support ANY party that supports better access to affordable health care for all. It is just that any plans which achieve such a result are anethema to the Republican Party at this time.

So, can you see how maybe some have a problem with this?

Yes. There are irrational people everywhere.

I'm betting that five or ten years into this effort, some of you die-hard liberals are going to have a problem with it as well.

Whatever problems that exist with the health care plan will be solved by finally getting a public option plan in place that can compete against private insurance companies.

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Who's paying for this plan Yabits - you? All the rich dem politicians? Any politician? No. The taxpayer is. What's the bill? I pay for my coverage - what do I get out of it as a plus? That's not greed my friend, that's survival. Do you have a family to support?

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tigermouth I'm a retiree on a fixed income and yes I buy health insurance for about $1400.00 a month. I have 6 brothers who are either retired and/or work. One of those brothers needs help to get health insurance and this will help him and his wife.

I don't know whether you know anyone who will benefit from this bill, but there are a lot of people who need help to get health care. < :-)

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All the rich dem politicians? Any politician? No. The taxpayer is.

What? You mean politicians don't pay taxes? That's certainly news to me.

I don't know whether you know anyone who will benefit from this bill..

There are many, many millions who will benefit, but as long as it might not directly benefit people like tigermoth, those millions will have to continue to suffer. That is the attitude I'm reading in his/her posts.

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"I'm a retiree on a fixed income and yes I buy health insurance for about $1400.00 a month"

You're paying $1,400 a month for health insurance? You're getting ripped off, daydream.

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sarge, if I recall correctly, aday stated he lives in Cali. That amount is about right, but let's look at other facts he has stated. He was a smoker so he deserves the high price and he should accept that. he was a Marine, so most likely, he drunk heavily. Again he should accept that price. He's also old so he should accept the price as it is now because its only going to get higher. As for your brother aday, tell me what is the issue. I can afford you some info many of the people here can't. There are many ways to bring your health care insurance prices down. you can dis me or you can try me. Its alredy been said, time and time again even by the dems who are passing this is that your health care insurance costs are going to go up. Why do you think you are going to get a break much less soon - this doesn't take effect for a while but we will be paying for it soon. I'm still paying into my health care in the US, as I have my people on a decent plan. A plan I more or less put together. I told the insurance guy "not to mess with a former assistant hospital administrator"! However, Illinois state law does not allow us to use that insurance policy across state lines and who controls Illinois? I moved to NY in 2000, taking on a contract job and had to enroll on yet another plan in that state but that insurance allowed me to use my insurance in New Jersey, but no where else. It sure would have been nice if this bill included allowing us to use our policies across state lines, but as I expected - it doesn't ...... Aday, why don't you just pay for your brother's insurance.

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RomeoRamenII -

This is the only good thing about democrats having the super majority. The nation knows who's in charge. And republicans ain't the ones.

And it's we Americans who voted, and will continue to vote, those Democrats into power again and again. You see, we Americans like a Congress who does what the people want; first time we've had that in the 21st century.

Good American Democrats control this country. And republicans ain't the ones.

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skipthesong, I'm from Kentucky, in Kansas. Your other assertions are pretty good. I always expect my health insurance to go up and and up and I don't ever expect to get a reduction (after years of never seeing a decrease in premiums).

skipthesong, I'm just glad for the benefits that help others not insured. Eventually it'll help to slow down premiums. It'll help to reduce costs someday. I'm not worried about that though. < :-)

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skipthesong -

he was a Marine, so most likely, he drunk heavily.

I know quite a few Marines who might take exception to that statement.

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You know USAFdude, I do too. But in this case I let it lie because when I was younger before drug test, we did just about everything. So I drank and did drugs.

But let's get back to this health care bill. There are so many Americans that need this bill. Insurance companies have been able to refuse to insure who they want to for too long.

I'm hoping that in a few years that a bill is proposed and passed on the public option. The insurance companies have collaborated in price fixing and insuring who they want when they can get away with it. < :-)

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Here's hoping, friend.

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USAFdude, my older brother was a Marine. I went the smarter route - Army. He drank a lot or learned to drink a lot while he was in. Me, I kept clean.

Since neither of you guys like me too much, just out of spite, if the public option ever gets approved, I'll walk back into the VA, get my job back, and provide you guys care personally!

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skipthesong

Since neither of you guys like me too much...

You get me all wrong. We might be good friends in any other venue, I just don't agree with your politics. Doesn't mean I don't like you. < :-)

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What? You mean politicians don't pay taxes? That's certainly news to me.

Sure they do - but they can afford expensive tax lawyers that allow them to right much of their expenses off, and get them out of paying much of what the rest of us do. Plus your average congressman or senator makes a hell of a lot more than I do, I can assure you.

There are many, many millions who will benefit, but as long as it might not directly benefit people like tigermoth, those millions will have to continue to suffer. That is the attitude I'm reading in his/her posts.

Perhaps there are, but the bill still has to be paid. And yes, why SHOULD this fall on me as a taxpayer who does indeed pay for his own insurance? Why should I be forced to perhaps pay for illegal immigrants (which will happen). And you didn't anser one - will the quality of health care in this country remain as high?

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skipthesong - You'll provide care "just out of spite", huh? Glad I didn't serve with you.

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Christmas luncheon - didn't get to finish my thought. Look, I don't begrudge anyone having available health care. Particularly the thought of children going without makes me ill. In a utopian society - which we by no means have, nor ever will given the nature of humankind - those that can would provide for those who cannot. But the unfortunate reality is that with the system of government that we have and the societal structure we've created, everything costs money. The the unfortunate economics are that when the government decides to fund such a thing as the current healthcare bill, someone must pay the cost of this. This is ultimately the taxpayer. Right now I live in the state of NY which is in a budget debacle. The net result is that our schools are the first to take a big cut. So I'm forced to send my children to schools that are underfunded with sub-standard equipment, thus lessening their chances in the world. Would I rather see more school funding for my kid's schools, or Joe down the stree who doesn't work get free healthcare? My choice is obvious.

It's quite easy to have that liberal attitude of helping your fellow man and 'being all in this together'. But put into practice with your average American family that is already stretched to the max, more federal spending equals more taxes which equals more strain on an already tough budget.

I have very many friends in the UK and in Canada. Doesn't sound so great to me as the quality of care in the US is measurably better. I've heard horror stories (issues down-played and called lies by the left) from English friends who wait forever to be seen and have the simplest of procedures done, despite some degree of pain. The system that we have, though admittedly considerably flawed, at least allows for a competitiveness among health care providers, with the benefit being that we receive better care due to this competition. My opinion is that we will lose this in the long run.

Why not look at combating and erradicating medicare/medicaid fraud? Studies show that the potential there is likely enough to pay for health care for all anyway. Which segways to another point; given human nature how much fraud will occur under this new system and how much of a further public drain will that be? For every honest person who might be out of work or impoverished and need some type of healthcare there are probably a greater number waiting to take advantage of system.

So yes, while you might think it horrible of me - and so be it - I get my sorry butt up each day, go to a job I don't like, work all week for less pay that I personally think that I deserve, am not rich or entitled in any way. I pull my own weight and do what I have to do to support my family. When you come in telling me I need to give some of my hard earned money to someone who isn't working so that they can have health care coverage - which I have to, and will continue to have to pay for out of my own salary, while at the same time our education system falls further into the gutter - yes, I have a problem.

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tigermoth, I read your post. There's a lot to address there. I'll just touch one point.

Why not look at combating and erradicating medicare/medicaid fraud?

As long as the AMA protects doctors from prosecution we'll have bad doctors. They won't let you see a list of doctors who have been reprimanded. Won't show a list of doctors who have lost their license from a state. As long as bad doctors are protected you'll always have them and even more each year.

Then as long as a doctor can lose a license in one state and just drift to another state and take up practice with disregard to the lost license.

Then I hear this tort reform crap. Please. As long as you have bad doctors with bad systems and they refuse to do anything about it, I hope tort reform isn't touched ever. < :-)

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tigermoth writes:

In a utopian society - which we by no means have, nor ever will given the nature of humankind - those that can would provide for those who cannot.

Everyone can agree that the world will never achieve perfection. But the state of those providing for those who cannot can be better described as "moral" rather than utopian. Throwing up the failure to achieve utopia as a reason to act morally is an ideal example of the perfect becoming the enemy of the good. And it's a favorite tactic used by those who wish to defend the abysmal and unjust status quo.

Why should I be forced to perhaps pay for illegal immigrants (which will happen). And you didn't anser one - will the quality of health care in this country remain as high?

We start by addressing and not avoiding the truth. The truth is that the United States depends on the labor of people who have entered the country illegally. If employers were not giving them jobs, they would not be here. It is simple as that. Regarding health care, any person who contracts a communicable disease -- whether legal or legal resident -- should be treated. The risks and consequences of not doing so are frightful.

Regarding quality of health care, that is a separate issue. Until someone comes up with the metrics by which to measure health care quality, we will never get a handle on the issue.

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By quality of healthcare I mean current state, or further that while it's not the best, it is certainly a good site better than what most nations enjoy. What I'm getting at here is based on the capitalist principals that - in my opinion - this country was founded upon. You might not agree with them because typically those on the left decry the evils of capitalism despite often being beneficiaries of such a system. But typically in a system of socialized medicine - which make no mistake that is what this is - doctors are not as well paid as they are here in the States under our current system. You might see this as a great equalizer of a system that has long overpaid doctors who should be more concerned with the public good. Fair enough, and I might even agree with that to a point. But there is a cause and effect to take into consideration. Right now, and part of this might just be my opinion, but I'll bet that it's backed up in truth, the US has a (relative to the rest of the world) high standard of medical care. I do realize there are many exceptions of course, I'm talking overall. One of the reasons for this is becuase of the high pay, hence high reward for being a well-trained and successful physician. As the incentive drops, so does the level of care. Add to that overworked doctors forced to see a lot more patients and the recipe is there for a sharp downfall in the overall quality of care. The metircs are there if you study nations with a system of socialized medicine, although one as large as ours converting to one is perhaps a different kettle of fish in some ways. I should think this is logic rather than over-reaction.

As for the issue of illegal immigrants and our dependence upon them, I have no doubt that we do. I don't agree with the 'instant anmesty' where all illegal immigrants are given citizensip - but allow them the processes and means to become citizens, and then let them pay taxes towards this medical care. I know the argument - well, if you do that then employers would have to pay them much more, offer benefits, etc. and there goes the cheap labor source. True, but it also means more humane and fair treatment of this labor source - something all should be for. I'd rather pay more for produce or whatever the commodity rather than pay through taxes for healthcare given to people who aren't even citizens of my country. Either way you pay - better in my opinion to have the increased tax base revenue and laws to keep these illegal immigrants from being abused by their employers (which is rampant).

The only issue I would have with the citizenship question is that there has to be a cap. We as Americans need to learn to do the dirty jobs rather than sit our our arses collecting public assistance becuase we're too lazy to do such work. I know how that sounds - like some old guy ultra-republican. But there is truth in many stereotypes. Plus the immigration issue is a tough one as I work with many folks from India that are in the process of applying for citizenship. It's a long and arduous process; if you make it easy for one group that hardly seems fair.

Finally, while I would fundamentally agree that there is a moral obligation to help one another when situation dictates, this moral imperative has become a tough road to traverse. As a people, we used to be clustered in families of small towns and villages where this was not only possible, but expected. Today the population has exploded to the point of madness and there are so many injustices in the equality and ability of people to provide for themselves, that it's simply overwhelming. True, we should start in our own back yard (it always gets me that we're asked to 'feed the world' and in recent years African nations have been the cause celeb when in fact there are people probably down the block from most of us that are going hungry). But now instead of being asked to help our families, or even our neighbors, we're being asked to help millions. It's a great and noble concept, but unrealistic when your average American families these days have problems even paying their bill and providing the basics for themselves. While this healthcare bill is designed to help those who cannot provide - it is taking from those who often have little. Obviously those who have more pay more, but crap roles down hill as they say.

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The next time someone cuts in line at a movie be sure to buy their ticket, too.

Yes, because dying of cancer and selling your house in order to pay for medicine is exactly the same as pushing in the line of a cinema queue.

tigermoth at 01:14 AM JST - 22nd December

Take care of the poor and those who can't take care of themselves.

Wow! Revolutionary! Imagine that! Humanitarianism.

can someone tell me who's going to pay for all of this? The answer is of course that we all will, through taxes. And I can assure myself that I will pay more in taxes.

So, can you see how maybe some have a problem with this? I'm betting that five or ten years into this effort, some of you die-hard liberals are going to have a problem with it as well. When your'e working, struggling to feel a family - having more of your money taken to help someone else - while perhaps noble in intent - is a bitter pill to swallow.

I pull my own weight and do what I have to do to support my family. When you come in telling me I need to give some of my hard earned money to someone who isn't working so that they can have health care coverage - which I have to, and will continue to have to pay for out of my own salary, while at the same time our education system falls further into the gutter - yes, I have a problem.

Me, me, me.

Where is the humanity in DENYING someone healthcare because they are ill? Insurance companies are there to make money, they are not charities. Therefore, to make a profit on someone's illness is simply immoral. And the tax issue is equally retarded as the idiots who argue it. Because you see, you gun-touting uneducated moron, you will pay less in tax to pay for healthcare than you will do in insurance premiums.

Health insurance is a scam, and a morally-bankrupt one at that.

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By quality of healthcare I mean current state, or further that while it's not the best, it is certainly a good site better than what most nations enjoy.

And with that statement, you are totally wrong. As a nation, the state of health care in the U.S. is abysmally poor. No nation spends more out of pocket while achieving mediocre results and leaving many millions uncovered and subject to personal bankruptcy. This state of affairs is horrible and acceptable only to the lunatic fringe that now appears to be more of the heart of the Republican Party.

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The majority polls show that Americans are against this health-care reform. A couple of points -- it benefits 15M Americans, at the expense of many, many more. Why not just push through a bill that helps those 15M instead of trying to corral everyone together? Because this bill is about control of the U.S. through control of health-care. It will kill healthcare and pharma in this country, and Obama and the Dems will eventually pay for it.

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Because this bill is about control of the U.S. through control of health-care. It will kill healthcare and pharma in this country, and Obama and the Dems will eventually pay for it.

There needs to be some regulation on health-care system, because we have seen so many people falling into the cracks. Neither Democrats nor Republicans are happy with the current system, because the private insurance companies, pharmacies, and corporate lobbyists are laughing at those who cannot afford to pay the medical bills. And most healthcare and pharmacies are tactic enough to know how to fend off the government’s intervention, because they have been thriving in the free market for more than 20 years!

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