Greece seeks 3-year aid program from EU

The Baltic States are an example of standard-of-living disparity.

I posed a question to a Latvian friend about EU membership, the lady immediately stressed to put distance politically from Russian Federation influence. The significance of EU membership for this lady had geopolitical connotations, however I hazard a guess that some of the economic costs are starting to hit home.

Greece, don't make any "deals" with Europe. Just ignore this odious debt, no reason why the Greek people should pay it

Why shouldn't they pay it? What will they do for money in the future? No one will be willing to bail them out, ot do business with them, they will be seen as a toxic economy. There are poorer countries than Greece in the EU, why should they suffer further because Greece won't pay them back.

Greece, don't make any "deals" with Europe. Just ignore this odious debt, no reason why the Greek people should pay it.

Greece cannot be afforded another bailout/loan, that would be beyond ludicrous. Greek Government will need to succumb to stringent market and tax reforms. And yes some up close and personal due diligence, incorporating step by step oversight.Debt sustainability will come at a price to dissuade 'copy cat' behaviors, also acting as a deterrence.

There are senior Euro zone officials and heads of government that privately express a strong desire that ERM/EMU and the resultant single currency never took shape in the first place. The Euro however is a reality and here to stay, currency substitution outside of EU member states gives rise to future EU expansion, a constant irritation to the Russian Federation.

Great Britain and Denmark in theory through treaty stipulations separate the 'Euro' from the 'EU' and have prevented further fiscal and political integration. My humble opinion is if a deal is not forthcoming, and Sundays 'emergency' summit goes ahead, Britain could well force reform right up the political agenda, there are determining factors that will come into the equation that require unanimous agreement.

The Euro as entity i.e. 'single' currency in any sense of the imagination 'unifying' Europe. The Euro has but one master.....

OECD Employment Outlook 2015 published today.... scroll down to Country-specific findings Germany ... Economic policy favours one country. Finland basically tags along. The Euro financially superglues all other states into an impossible-to-complete conundrum....

http://www.oecd.org/employment/oecd-employment-outlook-19991266.htm

@hameln

Why the ECB would disappear alongside with the EU?

The ECB as we know it would certainly disappear if there was no EU for the simple reason that getting rid of the EU would require a shredding of the treaties which also include the ECB as a European Union institution. But of course, it might be possible to sign a completely new treaty and set up a very different ECB 2.0 after the EU. As you point out, the part of the treaties that require reporting to the Parliament would have to be changed. Also, who would interpret the new treaty or resolve staff labour disputes if there is no longer a European Court of Justice?

€ has intependent legal existence outside of the EU. Kosovo and Montenegro use it as their currency, but they are not the members of the EU.

Very true, but I mean the official administration and printing of the Euro rather than simply its use.

Highlighting the rising anger with Tsipras, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker had a stark warning for Greece after Tuesday’s eurozone summit,“We have a Grexit scenario, prepared in detail,” he said, apparently referring to the situation in which Greece would be forced out of the currency union

More gibberish, claptrap, worthless hot air, from Juncker, the commission have no more an idea of the aftermath of a disorderly Greek exit from the single currency than 6 months ago.

It is remarkable the contempt the European commission has for the European electorate. If Greece has succumbed to insolvency, declaring bankruptcy to creditors before 2010, which in all intense and purposes would have taken place had the European commission not forced/steamrolled the then Greek government to accepting ludicrous bailout terms, Greece would have had no option than to have undertaken comprehensive economic reforms.

I understand from notes that the US government in the guise of US treasury chief Jack Lew and senior IMF stakeholders issued a stark detailed warning of 'actions' that would be undertaken if EU/ECB and certain 'other' parties did not face up to their 'responsibilities', and there is mumblings that debt relief is now been agreed in principle, but I am not holding my breath. The rumour mill is suggesting that the US government would turn its back on Europe, if Greece a NATO member fell under the influence of Russian Federation.

If the EU were to collapse, the Euro and the ECB would disappear along with it. The Euro has no independent legal existence outside of the EU.

Why the ECB would disappear alongside with the EU? It is very unlikely that nations would want the common currency, but it is possible. Of course without the European parliament the ECB would have to report every nation separate of its decisions and the nations would have to have some kind of agreement of hiring the staff members.

€ has intependent legal existence outside of the EU. Kosovo and Montenegro use it as their currency, but they are not the members of the EU.

Agree they probably need to work a little harder too, but without debt forgiveness (i.e. cancellation) this will only end with them going back to a drachma that will be worth 40-50% less than the Euro. Greece has tourism and some agriculture and some fisheries and a great strategic location which has to be worth something...... with a weaker currency they can fix this, although they won't be buying mercedes and designer clobber and second homes elsewhere in Europe any more. Yes, EU is already a bloated organisation that is largekly about justifying its own existence but the concept is at least noble. the Euro, on the other hand, is rubbish as well as being theoretically unsound.

"it would enact tax and pension reforms quickly in exchange for loans"

More loans? Incredible...

Greece should get the hell out of the EC, just as the UK will soon. Bloodsucking organization

This about the Euro, not the EU. Not the same thing.

You've stated this a few times, but it's a distinction without any difference in the current context. The Euro currency and the ECB are institutions of the European Union. Even though some EU members have elected to opt-out of the Euro, it doesn't mean that the others have gone off to create a completely separate organisation called the Euro. If the EU were to collapse, the Euro and the ECB would disappear along with it. The Euro has no independent legal existence outside of the EU. They really are the same thing despite the fact that some EU members might have more of an interest in Euro affairs than others.

Aristotle who coined the word "Democracy" pointed that the mass can be manipulated by democratic process. Majority of Greeks voted "No" to austerity, and Tsipras wants to implement sort of austerity measures to borrow more money? It seems like a con game to prolong his political agenda. How do you avoid from falling off the cliff? By discontinuing the same path to begin with. Let's him carries out the reform first, before giving any more Euro.

Wakarimasen,

As long as Greece stays in the Euro debt relief is the only thing that will work.

In practice that's probably true, a depreciation in the real value of their currency would make them more internationally competitive, whereas staying in the Euro would require salaries and pensions to be cut in nominal terms (which doesn't ever seem to be acceptable), although the two ways are basically equivalent.

But Euro or no Euro, what Greece requires to find its way again is big time reforms. The problem is the productive Greeks have largely left the place already, and it'll take time for the riff-raff that remain to get with the programme.

The only time a nation needs a loan is when they "consume" and "buy" more than what they can afford and can produce as a nation to buy with.

Well, initially, sure. Germany has long called the shots in the EMU which favored a strong Euro and favorable interest rates. German financial institutions encouraged Greeks to borrow to buy German products; i.e., the German loans went straight back to Germany as demand. That all worked well until it suddenly didn't. Now Greece needs help to pay Germany the money it has already spent in Germany. Somehow, the financial institutions always come out ahead.

Greece deserves a break; more importantly, they require one, or the EMU is toast. That is why financial markets are relatively calm about this: They know that what has to be done eventually will be after all the kvetching is done. Greece is already running a primary budget surplus. Give them room.

Nothing wrong with the EURO concept of "uniting" nations and people.

The only thing that we do not know for sure is why is "equality" and "fairness" considered the same.

Why is "equality" the same as "fairness"?

To begin with there are major questions of "what, who, when , where, how and why" being "equal" so important? Then the same for "fairness"?

The only thing that the current EURO did was to make the currency the "same", not the economies or the living standards or anything else the same or equal. All it did was to make "trading" based on one standard currency which could in time may possibly make it easier and more efficient.

In effect, it allowed the banks to form a gigantic organization that can "control" the finances of the EURO nations. People no longer control their own financial future. The EURO group in essence by making loans to nations or governments, they profit from the entire nation and not just individuals as they were able to before. They can also indirectly "control" the economy of the member nations.

It is the banking systems with their own open as well as hidden agendas politically and otherwise motivated that is the current problem. The underlying problem is the productivity of people of each country participating in it.

It is in essence no different than the IMF and the new Asia based China proposed Banking system.

Band-Aid on a sucking chest wound. The euro experiment is about to go POOF.

No reason to continue kicking the can down the road. The EU should cut the Greeks loose now. No reason to continue throwing more good money at a bad situation. Besides, it appears Greece doesn't have sufficient industry to successfully repay a long-term loan. Besides tourism, what does Greece have? What does the country create?

As long as Greece stays in the Euro debt relief is the only thing that will work. Cue lots of talking heads talking about "kicking the can down the road".....

The problem is in borrowing to keep a level of spending that was not and probably still is not sustainable as a country. The question is why did they borrow, when they had no resources to repay?

The real problem is their ability to repay the loan on a timely manner as agreed. The people do not consider it their "personal" debt to begin with.

The second question is why did the EU make such a loan to begin with.

The only time a nation needs a loan is when they "consume" and "buy" more than what they can afford and can produce as a nation to buy with. In effect it is a trade imbalance due to productivity of the people of that country.

Therefore unless the population start producing enough, they will not be able to repay. In that case they will be subservient to the EU.

For Greece, from all indications, their population is a "consuming" population and not a producing population.

This problem may still continue for generations, until the people themselves change.

So with many other nations throughout the world that have populations rely heavily on government sponsored social benefits without themselves being a productive part of it. Such is also a problem with the aging population that are NOT "allowed" to work and be productive or just plain left out of the picture as being a public burden.

Corruption, no productivity, mass tax evasion, middle age pensions, bloated public sector payrolls, all add up to bankruptcy. You can't vote that away.

This about the Euro, not the EU. Not the same thing.

Greece seeks 3-year aid program from EU

seems reasonable because EU has hardly any choice now, at this stage.