18-year-old gunman kills 9 in shooting rampage in Munich mall; commits suicide

Or if you prefer to just avoid arguments you don't agree with, you could do that too.

You have peaked my interest. The point I was making was not limited to just any certain slice of time, particularly the last few centuries.

No, I don't believe Steven Pinker. He seems to have an unwarranted belief in the selflessness of mankind.

Wolfpack, read the book. It's just the opposite. He argues that humans are naturally violent and that only through trade (not self-interested), state monopoly on violence (not self-interested) and other systems has violence been declining. Even counting the deaths of the World Wars, the rate of violence shows a long-term downward trend. Read him before you say you don't believe him. Or if you prefer to just avoid arguments you don't agree with, you could do that too. There can be long-term trends punctuated with ebbs and flows.

Jimizo: Glad to see that you've learned the historical fact that capitalism isn't the only system which has lifted hundreds of millions out of abject poverty.

I don't think you read my post very closely. The only competing economic system left is Socialism. By now it has been discredited 100 times over. At least the Chinese - after tens of millions of deaths - have decided to move towards more of a capitalist system. No system is perfect but one works better than others. Telling people to be aggrieved by the success of others while separating them into separate cultural slums is no way to bring about greater prosperity. As for equality - it never happens even in the most fundamentalist egalitarian society. It may be that under socialism, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." - Orwell

If I scream out the words "radical Islamic terrorists", or "Islam is dangerous", it won't do a thing to stop the problem.

And ignoring "radical Islamic terrorist" does solve the problem? I don't see the logic in that.

Nessie: Thanks to the spread of government, literacy, trade, and cosmopolitanism, we increasingly control our impulses, empathize with others, bargain rather than plunder, debunk toxic ideologies, and deploy our powers of reason to reduce the temptations of violence.

Homosapiens have been around for at least 100,000 years and have progressed tremendously in terms of education and understanding of the natural world. Yet a few dozen highly educated individuals from affluent backgrounds flew jet lines into the World Trade Center and Pentagon on 9/11. It was only 80 years ago that human beings slaughtered 10s of millions of one another in World War II. This was just a short time after WWI - which was supposed to be the war to end all wars. No, I don't believe Steven Pinker. He seems to have an unwarranted belief in the selflessness of mankind. History should warn you otherwise regardless of the ebbs and flows our existence on Earth.

Human nature is as it has always been. Pretending that human beings will be able to evolve beyond what they are is wishful thinking. Obama's uninformed belief that the arc of history bends towards progress is a falsehood.

Hi, Wolfpack.Check out Steven Pinker's "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined". He convincingly argues that the world has, in fact, become increasingly less violent. He gives several reasons.

http://stevenpinker.com/publications/better-angels-our-nature

review from the guardian

We’ve all had the experience of reading about a bloody war or shocking crime and asking, “What is the world coming to?” But we seldom ask, “How bad was the world in the past?” In this startling new book, the bestselling cognitive scientist Steven Pinker shows that the world of the past was much worse. With the help of more than a hundred graphs and maps, Pinker presents some astonishing numbers. Tribal warfare was nine times as deadly as war and genocide in the 20th century. The murder rate of Medieval Europe was more than thirty times what it is today. Slavery, sadistic punishments, and frivolous executions were unexceptionable features of life for millennia, then suddenly were targeted for abolition. Wars between developed countries have vanished, and even in the developing world, wars kill a fraction of the people they did a few decades ago. Rape, battering, hate crimes, deadly riots, child abuse, cruelty to animals—all substantially down.

How could this have happened, if human nature has not changed? What led people to stop sacrificing children, stabbing each other at the dinner table, or burning cats and disemboweling criminals as forms of popular entertainment? The key to explaining the decline of violence, Pinker argues, is to understand the inner demons that incline us toward violence (such as revenge, sadism, and tribalism) and the better angels that steer us away. Thanks to the spread of government, literacy, trade, and cosmopolitanism, we increasingly control our impulses, empathize with others, bargain rather than plunder, debunk toxic ideologies, and deploy our powers of reason to reduce the temptations of violence.

WC;

" When did that happen? In the 70's? No. Be realistic. . . . look at all the body bags filled since Ramadan till today. Look, lo & behold, 80 killed in Kabul. Radicals terrorizing minorities in the name of (....u guessed it) ISLAM. "

No, not in the 70s. A couple of years ago. But the claim is completely nonsensical, anyway. Breivik had the deluded plan of punishing the Norwegian leftist elite for their islamization policy in Norway. To compare that this is Allah Akbar shouting Shiite muslim who was taking revenge on the Sunnis who had harrassed him is absurd.

Anyway, as it's looking now, this guy in Munich was inspired by neo-Nazi Anders Breivik, who killed 77 in Norway.

When did that happen? In the 70's? No. Be realistic. . . . look at all the body bags filled since Ramadan till today. Look, lo & behold, 80 killed in Kabul. Radicals terrorizing minorities in the name of (....u guessed it) ISLAM.

Plasticmonkey:

" If I scream out the words "radical Islamic terrorists", or "Islam is dangerous", it won't do a thing to stop the problem. "

It is not about "screaming out", it is about identifying the problem. Screaming "religion has nothing do with it" or "it is problem of guns/trucks/knifes/presser cookers" or "it is disturbed individual" is the opposite of addressing the problem.

When the RAF and Brigate Rosso terrorized Europe, we addressed their ideology. We did not say "ideology has nothing to do with it". Why is the regressive left refusing to do that now?

f I scream out the words "radical Islamic terrorists", or "Islam is dangerous", it won't do a thing to stop the problem.

You have to acknowledge the problem exists before you stop it. ALI Sonboly is "this guys" name, by the way.

Please tell us about these radical hues living in Europe who commit mass murder at an alarming rate.

If I scream out the words "radical Islamic terrorists", or "Islam is dangerous", it won't do a thing to stop the problem.

Anyway, as it's looking now, this guy in Munich was inspired by neo-Nazi Anders Breivik, who killed 77 in Norway.

@Wolfpack

Glad to see that you've learned the historical fact that capitalism isn't the only system which has lifted hundreds of millions out of abject poverty. I remember the debate on JT and having my head in my hands after reading the disturbing ignorance of rightists on this point.

I regard myself as left of centre and I shout down illiberal ideas. That includes religious intolerance and bigotry of any stripe and I regard Islam as the most dangerous form of it although bigots of other religious stripes are also a threat to civilised society and progress.

I hope my last post wasn't misunderstood and made some think I was in the company of whooping chimps at a Trump rally.

Just call out dangerous nonsense when you see it and don't make excuses for it.

Wolfpack, Clamenza, Jimizo, Exactly.

"Radicalism of any hue will only increase unless we deal with the issue of community."

Radicalism of any hue? Please tell us about these radical hues living in Europe who commit mass murder at an alarming rate.

Wolfpack - You explain the meaning of "regressive left" perfectly. Bravo.

us_reamer: Forty years of neoliberalism, turbo-charged capitalism, call it what you will, has produced dysfunctional societies of growing inequality exacerbated by racism, tribalism, and millions of lost young people suffering from identity crises and bereft of hope.

Capitalism has lifted hundreds of millions (if not into the billions) of people out of abject poverty and the Left considers that a bad thing. Apparently what is most important to many is that unless all people have the same standard of living capitalism is a failure. Some cultures and behaviors are best suited for success in this system yet the Left - through belief in multiculturalism- are tolerant of cultural attributes and behaviors that do not maximize the potential for success. One can only assume that it is preferred that all be equal in their relative poverty rather than unequal but generally much, much better off. It's a nonsensical world view. It is self destructive and anti-Darwinian. Would many on the Left exchange their comfortable lives in the West for any non-capitalist system in existence today?

The last I hear about the killer in Munich is that he was a religious Muslim who was disillusioned and a misanthrope. Instead of promoting the idea that we are all relatively better off the Left's cynical attacks on the only widely successful economic system that has ever existed feeds into the disillusion that divides rather than unites people in the common goal of reducing human misery.

WilliB, Wolfpack, I agree.

u_s__reamer

Well said. These problems we face are the result of economic and social policies that alienate and disempower large swathes of people from constructive investment in their communities, be they local, national, or international. There is an enormous gap between the level of democratic engagement that is afforded by current technologies (and thereby discourses) and the power structures that maintain their forced leverage on these technologies and discourses.

Radicalism of any hue will only increase unless we deal with the issue of community.

Heck Obama and Merkel are so PC, they cannot say, "radical Islam."

Parroting this line is 'Pathetic.'

It's been addressed by your Commander-in-Chief.

The guy who actually got Bin Laden, not billions of dollars for his mercenary chums.

Here's someone's cellphone video of the shooter and the residents arguing at the roof of the OEZ (Olympia Shopping center) - with English translation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6OHmxnPAg4

Maybe someone would write a transcript of all that

No surprise. Germany has to sleep in the bed that Merkel made for her. Plenty more of this to come. Now wait for the usual routine: "Je suis München" demonstrations -- politicians expressing consternation -- and the media telling us that this has no connection with any particular ideology (unless they can blame a conservative politician, in which case it has). Wait for the playbook.

Tragic day for Germany...RIP to the victims and condolences to the families.The whole story is still yet very much unclear.

roosterman, 9/11 (and plenty of others) was pre the invasion of Iraq. And, either way, there was a lot more coming. Still is.

Forty years of neoliberalism, turbo-charged capitalism, call it what you will, has produced dysfunctional societies of growing inequality exacerbated by racism, tribalism, and millions of lost young people suffering from identity crises and bereft of hope. Unless we can address these socio-economic problems the rest of this century will be doomed to plunging into a vicious circle of spiraling violence and state terrorism. While Rome burns the unsuspecting play Pokemon Go as long as bread is in the convenience stores.

Its the SECOND attack in germany this week. The previous one (an afghan running amok with an axe on a train and screaming allahu akhbar ) was largely downplayed by the media.

I sometimes wonder if we have reached a tipping point and we have devolved to the point where it will be nearly impossible for adults to resolve differences peacefully and these types of actions will continue to worsen. Maybe as a species we have not evolved so far after all.

Human nature is as it has always been. Pretending that human beings will be able to evolve beyond what they are is wishful thinking. Obama's uninformed belief that the arc of history bends towards progress is a falsehood. The human condition waxes and wanes as it always has. It's just the luck of the draw whether or not you live during a good time or bad time in history.

@CrazyJoe. You made some good points. However, step 7 - I would side with the so called Liberals. Why did America and Bush invade Iraq? WMD or oil? They definitely poked blindly into a hornets nest.

But that still leaves the question of why he was denouncing Turkish immigrants?

I think that might have been comments from the person taking the video. Just a rumour, though.

Very sad. At some point the West will need to take this issue seriously. The situation getting worse, not better.

My heart goes for the innocent victims !!

“The perpetrator was an 18-year-old German-Iranian from Munich,”

Hmmm, probably a Zoroastrian extremist. Or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX8Vhz8_mIU

First 13 seconds is the shooting from the original Twitter video.

A German-Iranian terrorist as reported by Bloomberg. Jihadist terrorism is surely and steadily coming to Germany like in France. Will Merkel & her EU colleagues still act blur? Much clearer & stronger deterrent laws & punishments are needed to combat terrorism and terrorists and hate preachers regardless of their religions. So far Obama & Merkel, the 2 key leaders in the Western world have failed their citizens in basic security policies especially on radical Jihadist terrorism.

Latest......" likely a sole gunman in a deadly shooting in Munich was an 18-year-old German-Iranian who had both German and Iranian citizenship, Munich Police Chief Hubertus Andrae told reporters on Saturday. The gunman killed nine people, including some youths, before apparently killing himself, Andrae said. Sixteen people were injured in the attack, including three who were in life-threatening condition and several children."

These type of stories really make worry about what type of world our children and their children will live in.

CrazyJoe - amen to that

Crazy-Joe, exactly. its getting tiresome, isnt it, but no doubt the "progressives" will roll out the same old garbage.

Joe that more of a neo progressive train of thought not a liberal one.

Damn shame this had to happen and so close to my home country too seems all of nothern and western europe is gonna see a increase in terrorism.

And my home country is currently under fire by Erdogan stooges.

A step by step liberal guide on how to react to yet another terror attack by the religion of peace:

Step 1) Scratch your head and wonder "gee what could of been the motivation for this attack?" Step 2) Blame "all religion" Step 3) Invoke Timothy McVeigh Step4) Claim it is gun problem not a terrorism problem. Step 5) Claim it was Inspired by Trump Step 6) Attack Christianity Step 7) Blame Bush Step 8) Warn of the dangers of Islamaphobia Step 9) Invoke the Crusades and Inquisition

Wash Rinse Repeat

Wow, I stand corrected. BBC is now also confirming that he was an 18 year old Iranian, Thanks JeffLee.

But that still leaves the question of why he was denouncing Turkish immigrants? The only way it might make sense is if he is of Iranian-Kurdish ancestry born in Germany. This situation is really strange.

Regardless of whether this man was an Islamic extremist or a German nationalist this is a sign of the times. It seems these days that acts of terror are becoming the norm, which is a sad reflection of the world's condition. I think tribalism is human nature.

I always think about when I had kids in an international school in Japan, which boasted of a diverse and inclusive environment (I am not saying this sarcastically). However when it came to fundraising dinners, etc. the adults always congregated into their groups by either nationality, race, or even religion. The kids, on the other hand, never seemed to have a problem getting along with each other and could care less about these things.

The EU has brought together people of various backgrounds and in some cases having extreme views and differences. It does not seem to be working out well. President Obama promised to unite the nation, which has not happened. Neither Clinton or Trump are capable of this either.

I sometimes wonder if we have reached a tipping point and we have devolved to the point where it will be nearly impossible for adults to resolve differences peacefully and these types of actions will continue to worsen. Maybe as a species we have not evolved so far after all.

Police say he was Iranian. Not many "white right-extremists" from Iran, I imagine.

A Muslim eyewitness on CNN claims she heard him shout "Allahu Akbar" as he shot children

“We suspect terrorism,” Kudos to Captain Obvious.

@M3M3M3. Thanks. I didn't see anything on BBC's website earlier. I'll check again or perhaps it was on TV.

Luan Zequiri, a witness who was near the restaurant at the time of the initial shooting, has told broadcaster n-tv that he saw only one attacker, wearing boots and a backpack, who shouted “an anti-foreigner slur”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/22/munich-shooting-what-we-know-so-far

People on social media are all a bunch of wallies

Quite. Let's wait for the facts, friends.

BBC now saying 9 dead. We still have wonderful people in our lives . social media connected people are offering shelter.

BBC now saying 9 dead.

Where did you hear that?

On the BBC. They were reporting what witnesses were claiming. The gunman on the carpark also had a conversation with people who were yelling at him from surrounding buildings. He reportedly spoke in a native German accent and complained about Turks and immigrants. He said "I am German, I was born here"

Body found dead , suspected German

Based on the video and eye witness reports, it appears that it might have been a white right wing extremist. Today (or yesterday) was the 5th anniversary of the Anders Breivik attack.

Where did you hear that?

Hold the phone, at the moment there is a lot of chaos, nobody knows who is responsible , People on social media are all a bunch of wallies, Don't spread rumours or speculation ,

Based on the video and eye witness reports, it appears that it might have been a white right wing extremist. Today (or yesterday) was the 5th anniversary of the Anders Breivik attack.

I'm actually travelling to Munich next week so it's pretty scary either way.