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Gunmen kill 101, take hostages in Mumbai attacks

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Horrifying situation in Mumbai, India needs to be on red altert 24/7x365

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Tragic. But I cannot believe that Islam extremists are behind this because Islam is a religion of peace.

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God bless religion.

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God Bless India... a great Nation. India needs to put its troops on streets.

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Damn, I ain't going to visit that part of the world anytime soon.

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mcheeky- your patronizing overgeneralization aside, it is in fact the moderates who pave the way for the extremists.

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Funny how cowards are so often attacking the wrong people, isn't it? So is this what this is about? Some cowardly attacks deserve some more cowardly attacks?

I miss the attitude of people like Baron Manfred von Richthofen who refused orders to strafe ground troops because it was a totally unfair advantage. That was honor. That was courage. Both seem to be in short supply these days.

“We condemn these attacks and the loss of innocent life,” White House spokesman Tony Fratto said.

I bet Tony could point out some people who earned this fate rather the innocent in Mumbai. I doubt there were any bomb droppers or target designators among those westerners. Every time we take the advise of cowards it sparks a vicious cycle of cowardly violence against people who didn't even do anything.

The chickens come home to roost. "Chickens" is right, but they are not quite "home", are they?

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"Tragic. But I cannot believe that Islam extremists are behind this because Islam is a religion of peace."

Islamic extremists are, regardless of what Islam says. Islam explicitly allows for multiple interpretations and for people to choose their own spiritual leader. Until 911 most clerics in Saudi Arabia endorsed Al Qaeda's use of terrorism and issued fatwas to that effect. The house of Saud has since kicked them out thank God, but that sentiment remains popular in many followings of Islam.

Christianity went through this phase too, but most of them grew out of it, oh 500 years ago.

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mcheeky: "Every time we take the advise of cowards it sparks a vicious cycle of cowardly violence against people who didn't even do anything."

Other way around, mcheeky. Every time you go on a killing rampage in the name of vengeance this kind of thing happens to innocents, with the attackers declaring themselves the victims and saying it is vengeance, and on, an on, in more and more eye-for-an-eye crap.

Or wait... cheeky... whom was it they were targeting again specifically? Ah, yes... Americans and Brits; two nations for the illegal invasion of Iraq, etc.

Your remarks aside, I do indeed condemn this attack, and think the people involved are sick. I feel very sorry for the victims and relatives of those involved in this tragedy.

Clearly, the so-called war on terror has done nothing but beget more terror, as predicted. Some day people will finally learn that violence from any side and/or any view point achieves nothing but misery and death.

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These are attacks in India and a Muslim group is taking responsibility. That means there is a strong chance that these attacks are related to events in Afghanistan and the related ones that occurred in Pakistan, Pakistan formerly being a part of India, and Indian Muslims having strong relations to Pakistan.

That means the recent drone attacks on Pakistan are most likely very relevant to this.

And such attacks are extremely cowardly. Even more so than shooting unarmed people whose faces you can see, which is close behind. It seems to me that one set of cowardly attacks has led to another. If you don't like it, then explain to me why am wrong.

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several posts above prove my point that religion has no place in modern times. This place was attacked because India itself, don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for the people of India, it has been kept in a backwards state due to religion.

Clearly, the so-called war on terror has done nothing but beget more terror" I think your view is due to who was running the war on terror. These people have nothing to fear at the moment and they ain't too tolerant to others thus winning hearts and minds hasn't worked either, so what is the solution?

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Or wait... cheeky... whom was it they were targeting again specifically? Ah, yes... Americans and Brits; two nations for the illegal invasion of Iraq, etc.

After a few quick statements about how horrible of a situation this is, smith's future posts will no doubt exclusively deal with the US, the UK, and Iraq. And the terrorists will thank him for that.

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And such attacks are extremely cowardly. Even more so than shooting unarmed people whose faces you can see, which is close behind. It seems to me that one set of cowardly attacks has led to another. If you don't like it, then explain to me why am wrong.

So let's say we had good intelligence that this attack was about to take place and the gunmen were gathered at a local mosque nearby getting their final orders as to what targets they were going to be assigned to to attack and gathering their weapons.

A drone is over the area and can see the activity in the mosque.

Do you attack or not?

Pretty dumb if you don't but to mccheeky's eyes such an attack would be cowardly. I think 78 dead and 200 wounded would beg to differ with that opinion.

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Superlib... True true

When you only have one track to play from you always play the same song....

Everything points back to Iraq for some even though terrorist have been attacking western countries people for decades and middle east countries for centuries. Even though AQ became strong after the first Gulf War that the UN endorsed, after Clinton attacked with missles Iraq, and of course after Bush 2 attacked Iraq (illegal is a term that cant be used in war since war in itself is not a legal or illegal function) some still have to point to the war in Iraq with bush 2 as the cause for everything.

Sometimes argueing a sound bite is more important to people then argueing the facts and reality of the situation.

Terrorism wasnt created in The Iraq war nor is it the magic link or smoking gun why terrorist attacks happen other places, even though some want to paint that picture..

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Pretty extensive in being basically 16 hits at different parts of Mumbai, India at close to the same time with explosives of a fair number of bombs, to so many with full auto machine-guns to also grenads being throwen around. Not only in some of the hotels the the tourists to Westerners use, but business area, to one hospital.

Out-does the various attacks in England some time ago due to less people with explosives to lack of grenades to extensive use of machine-guns.

Definately will scare off the tourists to westerners for the next few years. Mind you actually more big-time then in Pakistan though not the killing of a main party leader as elections were about to be held.

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"Clearly, the so-called war on terror has done nothing but beget more terror, as predicted."

Tolerance of evil is not tolerance.

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you are going to see much more of these I'm afraid because their methods are working. Just the other day, the UN passed an anti-blasphemy law resolution, something they have tried to pass for a number of years... basically, what we are experiencing is FORCED tolerance. So far, I have only found Muslims in the UK, Oz, and the US condemn these attacks but not one, if you find it post it, Islamic lead country has made any statement yet, they want to UN to intervene into Canada's (of all places) human rights abuses against Muslims and that discussion is being pushed right now as we speak. A religion does not and should not have any special rights. Rights are for humans and no religion is above that. But, for people like these, religion is above all and as has been shown to date, we better start converting, or we ain't never gonna see the end to these attacks.

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you are going to see much more of these I'm afraid because their methods are working.

This tactic has always "worked" (Tet Offensive, Luxor attack, 1990's Algeria, that school in Belsan, Russia) so it is surprising this doesn't happen more often. Give credit to European and American intelligence services and fundamentalist incompetence.

One question: those holding Israeli passports were allowed to go free?

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So let's say we had good intelligence that this attack was about to take place and the gunmen were gathered at a local mosque nearby getting their final orders as to what targets they were going to be assigned to to attack and gathering their weapons.

Do you attack or not?

Nice set up. Trouble is you cannot tell me that ANY drone attack EVER happened that way, save inside of a Hollywood movie.

At any rate I recommend leaving it to the authorities of that sovereign nation. Because the mistake of violating that nation's sovereignty combined with the potential of massacring innocent people in this way is bound to make a lot of people angry, no matter how many times you cry collateral damage.

Such a cowardly act may save lives on one side today, but it seems like more will be taken on the other side tomorrow.

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Terrorism wasnt created in The Iraq war nor is it the magic link or smoking gun why terrorist attacks happen other places, even though some want to paint that picture..

So would you say this particular attack has no specific causes, or is just another in a string of attacks in the history of terrorism that would have happened no matter what?

Terrorism has been with us for a long time, but most every attack has some specific impetus or impetuses and those impetuses might be quite real or extremely exaggerated. In this case I am thinking they are real, maybe even just, although the targets obviously are NOT legitimate.

Terrorism is so often only completely black by use of willful ignorance. It is never white, granted, but there is a lot of grey.

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Trouble is you cannot tell me that ANY drone attack EVER happened that way, save inside of a Hollywood movie.

You should stay away from Hollywood. All of them happen that way. Do you think they just choose the targets at random?

US missiles kill al Qaeda suspects November 6 2002 By Walter Pincus Washington

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/05/1036308311314.html?oneclick=true

In this case I am thinking they are real, maybe even just,

Tell that to the families of the 78 people how "just" this is.

Moderator: Please keep the discussion current.

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Tell that to the families of the 78 people how "just" this is.

Its NOT. I clearly said the targets were NOT legitimate, so give me break.

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The attack by the unmanned aircraft marks a new stage in Washington's war on terror and a step up in US assistance for Yemeni President Ali Abdallah Salih's fight against the suspected terrorists who have taken refuge in his country.

Do you have any idea how key that is? We had permission to be there. That is not the case in Pakistan.

You should stay away from Hollywood. All of them happen that way. Do you think they just choose the targets at random?

You give me a single case. Yet nothing in there about orders being given for an attack. Come on, if they are ALL that way, surely you can do better than this!

A missile fired by an unmanned American aircraft over Yemen has killed six suspected al Qaeda terrorists

That little word "suspected" is pretty important. This is why you try to capture these people and only kill them if they offer lethal resistance. I am not against collecting intel in this manner, but killing people like this is still cowardly.

Certain situations I would like to over-look it. This is a good example. Trouble is that once you do that you go right down the slippery slope. You go from this to being a whole lot less sure and violating the sovereignty of an ally. That is what happened in Pakistan. Insurgents are not the same as members of al-Quaida.

What happened there might be a direct cause of the attacks in India. That is why the drone attacks should be seen for the cowardice they are and ended immediately.

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mccheeky

Required reading for you as you serach for your "root cause" of terrorist attacks.

When we fail to recognize the distinction between warfare and terrorism, we strip soldierly dignity from those who protect us from barbarism and award it to murderers. This injustice doubly punishes terrorism’s victims. First, the terrorist turns the victim into an instrument of his armed propaganda. He transforms a human being into a bloody wall poster. Then, the terrorist or his intellectual apologist converts the victim into a legitimate target for military action, telling us there is no difference between an airliner and a military base, that a religious procession is no different from a column of soldiers. He forces us to suffer the intellectual insult of being told that Carlos the Jackal is the legitimate heir of Simon Bolivar, that George Washington and George Habash were politically and morally equivalent. We are not children. We know soldiers sometimes kill innocents. I recently spent a year in Iraq and I know soldiers have killed innocent people. Consider the following example: A driver does not see a soldier’s signal to stop at a checkpoint. When the driver does not slow, a soldier opens fire and an innocent family is killed. This is tragedy. It is tragedy and an error, but it is not terrorism and it is not murder. Every person here knows the difference between the grim accidents of warfare and Oma or 7/7. It is the difference between a soldier and a terrorist. Lie Number 3: “Terrorism is a word made up by oppressive regimes” Nonsense. To deny the legitimacy of armed rebellion is to deny the heritage of most of Civilization. But rebellion can take many forms without becoming terrorism. When Gandhi took up non-violent protest against the British in India, others practiced violent revolution in the same cause. We know who triumphed.

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. Posts that do not refer to the attacks in Mumbai will be removed.

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Why are these terrorists looking for American and British people? Answer is known to most of the readers. Now they are asking for the release of all Mujahideen and trouble free life for Muslims living in India. There seems tobe strong possibility of Pakistan's involvement and has nothing to do with religion as mentioned by some posters.

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sailwind, your post was addressed to me, but the content was not. I have not justified these terrorist attacks. I deem them unjustified even if a part of their rage is justified. Intentionally and knowingly killing random people cannot be justified in any circumstance.

We know soldiers sometimes kill innocents.

My gripe is about robots killing innocents, and how that comes back to us.

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I recommend leaving it to the authorities" For how long? How long do you leave the crime that is happening in your neighborhood, the terrorism that is happening all over the place and the authorities for the most part either have their hands tied, their seniors are worthless, and they lack a lot of resources. my question is how long do we leave something like this to the authorities? I know many people whose patience is running out.

I would say fight fire with fire, by what do guys like this have that they hold dear to their hearts - not family, not friends, no possessions, so basically there is nothing to scare him and he knows you can't do anything about banning his religion, as in the very short, those words will get me locked up or killed and cheered for.

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"Muslim militants"

There seem to be a lot of those these days.

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The attackers specifically targeted Britons and Americans at the hotels and restaurant

These barbarians are extremely misguided in targeting British and Americans, and somewhat ungrateful considering the sacrifices and expense that have been put towards allowing people in these countries democracy, freedom and equality under law.

They should take a step back and consider the significance of their actions in the wider scheme of things.

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So people on this board want to think that this has nothing to do with Bush and Co. and the US/UK war on terror." Of course it does, but why is there such a thing as a war on terror in the first place?

They asked for British and American tourists, and let others go free" Where did you get your info? They may have been searching for those two nationalities, but they did indeed also kill Indians, Canadians, and we are still waiting on the actual lists but, yuu seem to be painting a picture that others were ok, no problems and the Brits and the Americans deserve what ever happens to them... Well, http://news.smh.com.au/world/westerners-targeted-in-mumbai-attacks-20081127-6ixo.html states: "At least two foreign nationals, from Japan and Australia, have been confirmed among the dead, the Press Trust of India (PTI) reported on Thursday.

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"these islamic extremists would leave us alone if we didn't bomb their countries and threaten them"

If we left them alone, we'd all be reciting the Koran.

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The group that has claimed responsibility has said that the main reason for the attacks was the oppression of Muslims within India.

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"They asked for British and American tourists, and let others go free"

It just makes me laugh, to see how eager western leftists, apologists for violent revolution, and reuters or BBC journalists (all the same I suppose) are to tie the actions of these homicidal Mohammedans to the US presence in Iraq (that war is over, the US won) or to the small British presence in Afghanistan.

Yes, maybe motive is as mercenary and base as simple profit.

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'If we left them alone, we'd all be reciting the Koran." no Sarge ,I think if the worst comes to the worst ,Western society will become something like China ,very restricted society in many ways,religions included, but no way Islamic one.

But what message that these terrorists want to send to the rest of the world? We will kill you all if we don't get killed first?

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This is a very sad event.What I daresay will happen is that these idiots will now cause riots in which Muslim Indians will be slaughtered more than they were complaining about in the first place.My heartfelt condolonces to the people caught up in this evil.

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It just makes me laugh, to see how eager western leftists, apologists for violent revolution, and reuters or BBC journalists (all the same I suppose) are to tie the actions of these homicidal Mohammedans to the US presence in Iraq (that war is over, the US won) or to the small British presence in Afghanistan.

I'm sure not laughing. The prospects for where this could lead are rather chilling in fact given that both Pakistan and Indian have nuclear weapons.

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Preliminary findings suggest the Mumbai attack is related to the Indo-Pakistani dispute over Kashmir and has no direct connection to the US-led "war on terror."

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Patrick Smash: The terrorists in this case didn't maximise the death toll among foreigners. They asked for British and American tourists, and let others go free.

I have to admit it is stunning sometimes to watch terrorist propaganda take over one of our own.

They wanted Americans and Brits? Right. The current death tolls sits at 101 with 314 injured. A grand total of 6 foreigners were killed. A Brit, an Aussie, a Japanese man, and 3 unconfirmed. That doesn't sound like a good hit rate to me.

Check out how many Americans were killed in the recent attack in Turkey or any of the US embassy bombings in Africa.

What they do is kill locals near Western targets, then wait for people like you to rush in and give them free legal defense.

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What's sad is that so many posters are using a tragedy such as this to beat the same dead horse in order to deflect attention away from the fact they haven't any suggestions to offer on how Western governments should respond. Carry on!

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The only war these cowards can make is with automatic weapons on unarmed civilians. It will get them nothing and nowhere and I doubt Mohamed will see them as heroes and will then make the proper recommendations to Allah about their fate.

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Terrorism has been with us for a long time, but most every attack has some specific impetus or impetuses and those impetuses might be quite real or extremely exaggerated. In this case I am thinking they are real, maybe even just, although the targets obviously are NOT legitimate.

You've an elitist.

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That means the recent drone attacks on Pakistan are most likely very relevant to this.

Indeed. Other posters missed this in their rush to denounce your perceived insufficient condemnation of terrorism as a tactic. (Moral judgment clouds rational analysis, so I'm relieved most posters here appear to have no policy input.)

Given that Pakistan has both nuclear weapons and a political spectrum which includes Islamic fundamentalists, we want to decrease the chances of that group coming to power. Attacks inside Pakistan strengthen that prospect, however, possibly even through the ballot box if nationalism is stoked. Should that happen, the Indians are not going to wait to be hit first. This is a very dangerous part of the world.

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"What's sad is that so many posters are using a tragedy such as this to beat the same dead horse in order to deflect attention away from the fact they haven't any suggestions to offer on how Western governments should respond. Carry on!"

Are they worried about President-elect Obama going unilateral and attacking them?

Or is Bush's phenomenal popularity in India what scares them?

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Who is "they"? Other posters, Indians, or Pakistanis?

Mumbai has been the target of such attacks on a regular basis, but since Indians were the victims it received limited attention in the international press. As an Indian blogger pointed out:

With the security heightened in the US and in Britain as well in recent years, it is hard to target Americans and British nationals inside their own country. Mumbai security has never been particularly terrorist-proof and hosts tourists from all over the world. Everybody is aware that most foreign tourists reside in the Oberoi and Taj hotels in the city.

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Sigh... like watching little children fight. One of the gunmen has spoken to the media. It is a group of INDIAN Muslims protesting over other Indian Muslims who have been jailed. Why ask for U.S. and U.K. citizens? Perhaps because they will bring the greatest embarrassment and pressure on the Indian government, hence (or so they think) bring them closer to achieving their goals. They didn't even ask all the foreigners. One interviewed on TV said they asked for American and British citizens, then when they got enough for a decent number of hostages, didn't ask everyone else (to the great relief of the guy who was being interviewed).

It seems from what has been said that U.S. and U.K. citizens are simply the most global media-friendly of hostages. Most of those already dead died in the indiscriminate shooting at the start, or from the bombings. I think you'll find drone attacks in Pakistan or the war in Iraq take a back seat on this one, and that domestic issues are to the fore.

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Looks like unmanned spy drones are talking the lead with Iraq gaining ground quickly. Anyone else want to throw out some pre-justifications? I guess in the end whatever specific reason they give will be equally supported. I mean if they didn't have a legitimate grudge, then they wouldn't be terrorists in the first place, right?

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I guess that means that some people here will be moving on...

Agreed,

Sad isn't it.

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anyone, what is the indian equivalent of the CIA?

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They wanted Americans and Brits? Right. The current death tolls sits at 101 with 314 injured. A grand total of 6 foreigners were killed. A Brit, an Aussie, a Japanese man, and 3 unconfirmed. That doesn't sound like a good hit rate to me.

This is the problem with extrapolating intent from outcome. You're assuming things went exactly according to plan. This is a dicey assumption (though one frequently employed to dismiss others' views).

Donkusai is right. Kidnapping Brits and Americans will give the incident a higher international profile than, say, grabbing Chinese or Koreans. From the perpetrators' point of view, it will also probably dampen investment interest in India. And of course tourism revenues will fall off as well. All of this will put pressure on the Indian government which the group responsible hopes will prove favorable to their cause. All of this would be part of their strategic calculations.

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This is certainly over Kashmir and pro U.S relations. To drag Iraq into the argument just helps to justify terrorism on a primitive level. This is not about Iraq. Do you believe that pro Pakistani terrorists really give a Flying F about Iraq? They may fabricate that in order to secure favor from wealthy sponsors but clearly this is a local job based on local issues. Regardless of the reasons, I hope the killers find hell in death even though hell is yet another human fabrication.

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Blind faith is a terrible, wicked, satanic thing.

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And if no Mullah comes out and condemns this attack, I am sorry, but I will have to conclude that they secretly support it. Or are they simply afraid of their own flock?

Is Islam under attack? No, I don't think so. It looks from here like the armed wing of Islam is on the attack, yet again. Aggressive, militant, and out of touch with what really matters to the human heart.

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I think the Pakistan government is behind these attacks and the attacks in Afghanistan. The vast majority of people killed are India. They may have been looking for Americans and British but did not find many. There is going to be a lot of pressure on the India government to do something. This attack will not help the Muslim people in India, Pakistan or Kashmir region, if anything it will lead to an India crackdown on them. All this talk of "strategic calculations" and the "right" of these thugs is a load of crud.

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I think the Pakistan government is behind these attacks and the attacks in Afghanistan.

That's a conclusion for which you're going to have to provide some evidence. If the group is found to have benefactors or trained in Pakistan, that's a worrisome concern given the response it might precipitate.

The group certainly planned this attack and therefore it must be based on some set of strategic calculations. To state that is by no means an endorsement. (Do I even have to write that??? Political correctness on the part of the Right is all to evident on this thread.)

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India is full of local Muslim extremists. No need to blame Pakistan. Almost all of the dead in this attack are Indian muslims, hindus, and sikhs. The extremists in India have their own Modus Operandi. The media and Governments who need to say "I told you so" are making a 9.11 out of a terrible event. But this is no 9.11 and just another example of the difficulties facing the Indian government. If they were not so corrupt for a start, this may not have happened. Same goes for 9.11.

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Betzee, I do not have to "prove" anything and the government of India does not have to "prove" anything. One hundred and one people are dead and hundreds more are wounded. Millions of dollars of damage has been been done and amount of suffering is beyond words. romulas3 you have managed to flip this 180 degrees. The government of India is going to "protect" their people. Do you expect them to do nothing? From the story the attackers came from outside of India. Something is going to happen and do not expect the India government to have to play by the "Queensberry rules".

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India has been wracked by bomb attacks the past three years, which police blame on Muslim militants intent on destabilizing this largely Hindu country. Nearly 700 people have died.

Of course, India will do what it always does when these attacks by Muslims occur. They'll put out their generic statement denouncing terrorism and say both sides must show restraint. And then they'll do nothing. So it's hardly surprising that these attacks have continued on like this for decades. How pathetic for a country to not even protect its own citizens. Until India decides get serious about Islamic terrorism, I'd avoid the place.

Given that Pakistan has both nuclear weapons and a political spectrum which includes Islamic fundamentalists, we want to decrease the chances of that group coming to power....This is a very dangerous part of the world.

Betzee - agreed. Pakistan should have never been allowed to obtain nuclear weapons. I've said many times that Islamic countries must never be allowed to go nuclear. This is exactly why Iran's nuclear program needs to be leveled.

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Clearly, the so-called war on terror has done nothing but beget more >terror, as predicted.

So according to you, after 911 we should have done nothing? Has it occured to you that doing nothing would have invited further terrorist attacks within the U.S.?

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Is it just me, or does this operation sound like a "professional suicide unit"? Possible mothership off the coast, rubber lifeboats on shore, limited munitions planted at target sites - may have some inside help, but this operation required logistics, planning and transportation availability. Also, these types of operations are done due to time constraints, or the bulk of the equipment would have been already stored at the target sites. The Indian Govt. should bring in their elite squads and an outside investigation like Interpol. Tooooooo many questions unanswered.

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Must agree with you apecNetworks, for when the top Indian commandos hit the Jewish section, with a lot dead, then noted the last standing was in early 20s, extremely well train & in quite a vicious mood, or something like that. Possibly on some drug so as to keep him awake & sharp.

So YES India had best start to study what allowed this group to hit & are there more like them that could hit again, possibly in another city or area though often in another way.

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