Hamas declares victory in rallies across Gaza

He said Hamas is stronger than ever and poised to one day take control not just of the West Bank, but also of Israel.

And people wonder why Israel thinks they have to do such acts of war in order to feel safe. When a leader of a terrorist group states they will not stop until a whole country is removed they strengthen Israel's determination to find a solution by military means.

I find it sad to hear/read Hamas is still the little man poking the polar bear with a stick. The future is very predictable with Hamas still attempting to shake the bee hive.

Congrats Hamas! How many did you sacrifice for this moment of self satisfaction?

Waving green Islamic flags atop the ruins of Gaza, Hamas proclaimed victory

I wonder if the writer of the article was trying to be funny when he wrote this.

What a bunch of clowns. You irritate Israel and the civilian population in Gaza gets hammered as a result. Israel must definitely be faulted for its heavy-handed approach, but Hamas also has to carry the can (they won't, however). As I have said in previous posts, something has to be done to address the Palestinian Issue, and the standard of living of its people. As it is, it is a conflict without end, and the people paying the heaviest price are the Palestinians themselves.

And they will continue to pay the price, as long as they vote to put Hamas in power.

timorborder,

Well written post. You covered things very well. Hamas' continued refusal to deal with reality will only serve to increase the continued suffering on the part of the average Gazan.

I am also rather confused about this:

Piles of rice, beans and medicine still smoldered Tuesday, sending white smoke into the air.

I have been reading for quite some time about the 'tons' of supplies that were destroyed at the Gaza UN Headquarters. However, I wonder when these supplies were brought into Gaza, how long they had been stored at the UN HQ and why this food had not been given to the people in need long before the HQ was hit. I realize it would have been difficult or even impossible to give out this aid when Israel was attacking. However, there were periods before the land invasion and also there was a temporary cease in the attack for the purpose of aid being brought in. Why were these supplies just sitting in storage when thousands are in pain and in need in Gaza?

Why were these supplies just sitting in storage when thousands are in pain and in need in Gaza?

Don't quote me, but I think U.N. personnel were withdrawn. There was no one to do the job perhaps?

there was a temporary cease in the attack for the purpose of aid being brought in.

If I recall, it was during one of these temporary ceasefires that Israel attacked UN trucks, killing at least one driver (2?).

Anyway, the only positive thing I can see out of this last carnage is that in the world's eyes, Israel has finally demonstrated itself to be the great terrorist state that it has always been. Good job Olmert.

likeitis,

Thanks for your response. I certainly have seen reports suggesting UN personnel withdrew. However, UNWRA personnel (of course a part of the UN, but their specific jobs are different) were still in Gaza claiming they had to close their centers because of 'a lack of food'. Obviously, there was less of a 'lack of food' and supplies than UNWRA claimed. In addition, the UNWRA staff remained in Gaza and seemed to be readily available for comment during the entire crisis.

I find it sad to hear/read Hamas is still the little man poking the polar bear with a stick.

Its an interesting analogy you have chosen. Polar bears don't leave potential food alone, poked with a stick or not.

We can argue that there would not be violence if Hamas and Palestinians gave up violence. I tend to agree. But then we have to ask ourselves what does it mean to have peace?

I am suddenly reminded of the American Revolutionary War. They too could have had peace, but they considered the price too high. Do you think they chafed under Britain as much as Gaza chafes under Israel? I doubt it. Most of what we hear about today are the anger of black marketeers over repeal of the tea tax, resulting in the Boston Tea Party, and the Boston Massacre, brought on by people taunting occupying soldiers armed with muskets, in fact, actually yelling "fire" at them! A rag tag peoples banded together for independence and freedom and took on the most powerful country in the world at the time. They suffered immensely. Thank goodness Britain was an ocean away instead of right next door!

sabiwabi,

If I recall, it was during one of these temporary ceasefires that Israel attacked UN trucks, killing at least one driver (2?).

What you have written does not have anything to do with what we are discussing (Surprise! Surprise!) The food the articles refers to and that I was writing about was already in Gaza and was obviously there before the attack on the driver on the Israeli side of the border...Do try to keep up...

BTW, it seems you continue to miss this (or rather cheer it on...):

From the article:

He said Hamas is stronger than ever and poised to one day take control not just of the West Bank, but also of Israel. “Gaza is not our goal,” he told the crowd. “The liberation of all of Palestine, from the river to the sea, God willing, will be achieved.”

After all the Palestinians and especially the Gazans have been through, Hamas is still willing to see more death and destruction rather than move forward towards peace for the Palestinian people. At least you agree with their goals and methods, huh?

22000 buildings destroyed 1300 killed. Israel will be remembered not for what it can destroy but more for what it builds

I find it sad to hear/read Hamas is still the little man poking the polar bear with a stick.

Instead of a little man poking the polar bear, I see this more like a big cat keeping its paw on a little mouse, constantly teasing and abusing it. Sometimes the mouse gets fed up and bites the cat's paw, causing the cat to give the mouse a harsh beating. And now the mouse is proud to have survived the beating, and more people understand that the cat has been abusing the mouse.

likeitis,

When most of us refer to the Palestinians choosing 'peace', we are not suggesting (at least I am not anyway...) that the Palestinians should just put down their weapons and everything else should stay as it is. What I am suggesting is that Palestinians should be able to make a nation from negotiations made from a declaration of peaceful intent...Borders and other issues would of course have to be negotiated and both Israel and Palestine will have to sacrifice some things. However, this is the only way for their to be true peace between these two nations...

sabiwabi,

Your analogy (as usual) is incorrect as Hamas has clearly stated they want to destroy what you call 'the cat', in other words the nation of Israel. This continued ridiculous goal in the face of such misery on the part of the own people just shows how far the Hamas leadership seems to be from reality...

What I am suggesting is that Palestinians should be able to make a nation from negotiations made from a declaration of peaceful intent.

I know. But I do not trust either party to negotiate fairly. Therefore, that does not seem possible either. I think it natural to place more blame on the one with the clear upper hand in that situation however.

And I can think of many ways to entice the weaker party to be fair, but I am at a loss as to how to do that with the stronger party, except for violence, threats and extortion.

If it were up to me, clear timetables would be drawn up for every increment of Gazan independence. And every time Israel did not comply, I would cut military aid. Only the U.S. truly has the power to keep Israel honest. I hope that power gets exercised soon.

If Hamas wanted peace they would work towards it and not have leaders making genocide statements. The same goes for Israel, if they want peace they need to start by not making threats all the time. But this time it is Hamas who is poking the bear while the bear is walking away. If the bear gets tired of it then it most likely will take a swipe at the pesky poker sooner or later. As far as what borders are right or not thats for the two countries to agree on, just like (insert your home country) has done over the years when it attacked or was attacked. Borders are created by military action in every nation, we can move borders and land owners based on military advancment and retreat in many many places based on history of the borders. Which borders are the correct one_? Only Israel and Palistine can decide that in a peaceful way, Hamas is just a little man poking the bear because it likes the bear to look agressive all the time. Hamas isnt a valid figure in the discussion because they are neither a country nor a people, they are a terrorist group.

Victory apparently means Hamas killed more of their own than they did Israelis. I guess you have to belong to their radical sect to understand.

likeitis.

You are right that this situation isnt easy to resolve. But we can all hope humans as a whole will start to understand war/terrorism isnt an answer to any problem. But knowing human nature we will never see such things as world peace and a world with out war/terrorism no matter if the US supports any country or not.

Its one of the few things that make me sad. As a former military person who spent time in war I have seen the results of war. I am saddened that war isnt going to ever stop in this world. I am sad that the ones who pay the price for war isnt the ones who start the war.

sabiwabi,

This is not a matter of 'hair-splitting' even in the slightest. It is a matter of you attempting (again!) to introduce tangents that have nothing to do with what is being discussed. The food was IN GAZA when it was destroyed...it has nothing to do with what you wrote. Please think about taking your own advice...think harder...

As to your suspicions about what Hamas did or did not say (surprise! surprise! again)...all you or anyone needs to do is check video feeds of Hamas speeches or interviews to hear the same content repeated over and over...You claim 'documented mistranslations' however, I have never seen any of the people you claim were mistranslated claiming they were mistranslated. I have only seen people like you claiming it. That is hardly evidence of mistranslation considering you are having trouble understanding food was actually in Gaza for quite some time and it seems that it had not been distributed...You see, this is a concern for me and should be for anyone that cares about the welfare of the people in Gaza...

likeitis,

If it were up to me, clear timetables would be drawn up for every increment of Gazan independence. And every time Israel did not comply, I would cut military aid.

That is only the half of it. The same must be held true of the Palestinian side as well...

PR victory. They got the whole world (including many posters on this site) up in arms against Isreal. They come out of this looking like poor, supressed victims instead of the murdering terrorists they are.

I have never seen any of the people you claim were mistranslated claiming they were mistranslated.

Obviously! Your sources of information will never convey such claims. They will only convey claims/reports that support the views they choose.

PR victory. They got the whole world (including many posters on this site) up in arms against Isreal. They come out of this looking like poor, supressed victims instead of the murdering terrorists they are.

But hopefully the world is smart enough to see beyond this. Both Hamas and Israel need to be made to carry the can for this. Things simply cannot go on the way they have been (although I have no real illusions). For all the whinning about Islamic Fundamentalism, what has any country actually done to address the Palestinian issue. The response is probably not much. Israel has its own reasons for seeing a weak and deprived people, just as Hamas does not really want the status quo changed (because it would fade to irrelevence). Countries in the region squak about the Palestinians, but any true resolution would result in their own despotic practices coming under the microscope. At the same time, however, if the conditions of these people were significantly improved (with Gaza, etc. not being subject to periodic Israeli intervention and the people not living a threadbare existence), the perceived legitimacy of a lot of the dogma of the fundamentalists would evaporate. So how about it?

sabiwabi,

I did not write that I haven't seen 'claims'. I wrote that I have not any of the people you claim were mistranslated claiming they were mistranslated. I have only seen people like you claiming it. That is hardly evidence of mistranslation considering you are having trouble understanding food was actually in Gaza for quite some time. So, we are not talking about sources or 'claims' such as yours. We are talking about what people actually say and what the people that said them they say they said. Maybe you need to take a reading comprehension class? I hear they have them online now...

Anyway, as I wrote earlier, this article does correctly describe the Hamas attitude and in fact describes yours as well as you wrote:

"If there ever was a right for Israel to exist on land appropriated from other people without their consent, this right has now been eternally forfeited."

So, it seems you and Hamas are in agreement about wanting to destroy Israel and unrealistically thinking that 1) this will happen and 2) that this meaningless waste of Palestinian lives is better than making peace and a nation for the Palestinian people...I disagree with you and Hamas as I think continued fighting and attempting to destroy Hamas will not give the average Palestinian what they want, which is peace...

That is only the half of it. The same must be held true of the Palestinian side as well...

Oh, yeah. But like I say, I can think of many carrots to keep them good. Not saying all will work, but certainly there are more carrots than for Israel. And when it comes to sticks, there just are not many options either way. The stick does not seem to work on the Palestinians for long. Israel on the other hand has not had the stick applied in a long time, not in earnest, not in something with real meaning.

I hate to say this but wars should be fought to a conclusion. These cease fires just give the combatants time to reload. Look at Korea, that has been festering for more than 50 years and the middle east has been basically at war since 1946. Let's have a winner, a loser and the U.N can see that the winners do not commit genocide on the losers.

I dont think wars can be fought to a conclusion any more. Look at Iraq, despite all the pompous claims of the US winning that conflict, the truth is far from total victory. Major combat might have ended (to quote a certain US ex-President), but there are still folks dying on all sides. And what about the Middle-East? This Palestine-Israel problem is not really a war, it is rather a case of Hamas baiting Israel on the understanding that Israel will then turn around and kick the shxt out of the civilian population. That is not war, I don't what it is, but it ain't war (it is genocide and something else - sheer bloodymindedness on the part of Hamas?). And what if real War came to the Middle East? How would the cards fall? Would all these Arab countries that "support" the Palestinians actually put their money where their mouths are? And what of Israel, would it try and systematically take on numerous arab opponents (who could be joined by Islamic adventurers from other countries). Somewhere along the line, the US and Europe would get involved. A war without end, without a result.

Hamas is ridiculous. They got smashed up read bad. Hid behind kids etc...losers.

Hid behind kids etc

Could you link me up to a pic of that? And I really mean hiding behind a kid. Anything else just won't do. Thanks.

likeitis,

Yes, both sides need to be given carrots and if they don't start to behave they should be smacked with them ;-)

Unfortunately, for the past eight years the situation was pretty much ignored by the outside world. The last real efforts were made during the Clinton administration where both were offered carrots and both at least showed up.

In fact, it was both the carrot and stick that got Israel to go to Oslo as well...

Sadly, I think the world has other things on their plates right now and I don't think Hamas is very interested in carrots...unless they can have all the carrots, that is.

The answer is as you have suggested in your last post that both sides be forced to the table to negotiate and they should be given no option for walking away from the table. They should have to keep continuously talking until it is settled and they should be forced to keep strict control over extremists in their midst.

Like so many others, I had such hopes when Barak and Arafat sat at the negotiating table and regardless of why people think Arafat left the negotiations, I feel he was wrong to do so. He owed it to his people to sit there and hammer out a deal that would give his people a nation and not just a 'nationality' and give them a real peace.

Now, we have Hamas and Fatah and their split. In addition, we have a great divide between Hamas in Gaza and the exiled leaders of Hamas. How these rifts can be solved remains a looming cloud that must be swept away before Palestinians can bring a unified front to the negotiation table. If these leaders are really serious about the future of their people, they have no choice but to recognize that peace with Israel is the only answer. Just as Israel and its people must recognize that peace with Palestine is the only answer...

Oops...

In one of my posts above I meant to write:

'I disagree with you and Hamas as I think continued fighting and attempting to destroy Israel will not give the average Palestinian what they want, which is peace...'

I see this more like a big cat keeping its paw on a little mouse

Comparing Hamas terrorists to a "little mouse". Too funny sabi. Besides, making an analogy between Hamas and an animal is an insult to animals.

Comparing Hamas terrorists to a "little mouse". Too funny sabi.

The score is 1,300 to 13, and that is just deaths. Throw in injuries and property damage too, and I think the comparison is pretty apt. Hamas got stomped like a cat stomps a mouse, and the mouse does have sharp teeth, but is lucky to get one good bite in. Whether Israeli motives are as heinous and selfish as a cat to a mouse however, is up for debate.

I hate to say this but wars should be fought to a conclusion.

Spoken like a true armchair quarterback.

likeitis,

The problem I have with analogies like these is that simply describing the situation is sufficient enough. Analogies do not usually mirror the reality. They are merely a caricature that exaggerates what the person making the analogy would like to exaggerate. For example, I doubt there are any mice that want to destroy a cat. Unfortunately, Hamas often states it desire to destroy Israel...as they have stated and as was quoted in this article.

likeitis,

here you go. just google "hamas human shields". takes 2 seconds.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Hamas-Human-Shields.jpg

here you go. just google "hamas human shields". takes 2 seconds.

Is this a test? Did you actually think I would not look at the picture? Did you? The boys in the foreground look like they are observing the latest video game! I do not see anyone holding anyone anywhere!

Are the gunmen supposed to shoot one so they will disperse? (don't answer that) And isn't a shield supposed to be in front rather than behind?

Frankly, the lengths people like you will go to believe what they want to believe is pretty scary. Reminds me of Germany just before WWII. Snap out of it man, snap out of it!

For example, I doubt there are any mice that want to destroy a cat.

Wrong! Slowpoke Rodríguez, cousin of the more famous Speedy Gonzales. <:)

If you have a warped sense of ethics like Hamas, it WAS a victory. They now have even stronger support from the Palestinians to carry on attacking Israel. Israel's actions will have been completely futile and counterproductive, as the rest of the World has been telling Israel and ex-Prez Bush ever since this latest murder spree started.

Only by marginalising the terrorists can you turn the civilian population against them. Israel's done precisely the reverse

The boys in the foreground look like they are observing the latest video game!

If firing a few rounds at Israeli targets or even involving children in simulated training is sick.

Likeitis

It's from the BBC

Have a nice day.

Frankly, the lengths people like you will go to believe what they want to believe is pretty scary. Reminds me of Germany just before WWII. Snap out of it man, snap out of it!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/in_pictures/6166998.stm

Snap outta it man.

Whether Israeli motives are as heinous and selfish as a cat to a mouse however, is up for debate.

One could indeed make a balance-sounding case for the mouse needing to negotiate for real long-lasting peace under the cat's paw.

Actually what would make this analogy more apt would be to include how this mouse was living inside a huge chunk of delicious cheese until the cat came over and took all the best cheese and left only a few dried crusts for the mouse.

Anyway, many people have been conditioned to avoid criticizing certain people; using analogies allows us to circumvent this preconditioning. Most people, unless they happen to be cat-lovers or mouse-haters, will understand that if the cat and mouse deserved equal rights, the cat would get a major kick in the butt and the mouse get his cheese back. But to say a similar thing about Israel/Palestine gets a "your antisemetic" response.

Unfortunately, Hamas often states it desire to destroy Israel...as they have stated and as was quoted in this article.

Meanwhile, Israel has essentially destroyed Palestine. Why does Israel have more right to exist than Palestine? Why is Israeli blood more precious than Palestinian blood?

Why is it that wiping Palestine off the map is considered honorable, but simply suggesting that this theft be reversed is considered obscene?

Palestine had Muslims, Christians, Jews living together in peace. The zionists messed it all up, they are they ones who should be removed.

sabiwabi,

but simply suggesting that this theft be reversed is considered obscene

You are simply suggesting that a country (Israel) should be destroyed.

But to say a similar thing about Israel/Palestine gets a "your antisemetic" response.

No, when you say anti-semetic things people call you an anti-semite. For example...say, attempting to blame Jews for killing Jesus as you have done...or having a problem (as you have claimed to have) with businesses because they are claimed to be owned by Jewish people. There is a big difference between being anti-semetic and anti-Israel. However there are definitely people who are both. I believe you have sufficiently shown yourself to be one of these people.

many people have been conditioned to avoid criticizing certain people; using analogies allows us to circumvent this preconditioning.

Conveniently for you, it also helps you avoid certain aspects of reality and focus on caricatures of reality.

For example, no one here has written anything resembling Israeli blood being more precious than Palestinian blood. That is pure hyperbole...

If we are truly hoping for equal rights and for peace, the only solution is for there to be two nations, Israel and Palestine, side-by-side living in peace. Unfortunately, there are posters who support fighting peace and continuing to dream of destroying Israel even if it causes more and more Palestinian bloodshed with no end...Such is the hatred for Israel that it is worth it to these extremists to hope for continued fighting.

Palestine had Muslims, Christians, Jews living together in peace.

Yes, except for all that rioting and killing and such, it was a really paradise!

Nessie: I'v been in three wars, two of them still going on, one fought to conclusion. The country that fought to conclusion is now a vibrant, growing economy (Vietnam). So I speak from experience (although limited). How many wars have you been in and what were the outcome?

Wabisabi,

I'm disappointed in your post. I usually agree with you and your insight.

But this time, you are misinformed.

I am not defending Israel here. I'm not taking a side. I am trying to be a nonbiased Jewish boy looking just at the facts. I'm disgusted with Israel's methods of retaliation.

That said, Hamas is absolute scum. They build schools and hospitals? So what. That is the job of every government. Do you know Hamas? Do remember when they sent suicide bombers to kill children across the border? Do you remember when they used teenage suicide bombers? Do you recall their platform, which not only uses the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (same text the Nazi's used to justify their killings), but REFUSES peace.

This is a group that will send their youth to suicide before accepting peace. They will not stop until the Israeli's are dead. Don't forget what they did to Fatah before the Gaza strip was shut down.

And please note that the strip is shut not just be Israel, but Egypt as well.

Go to their site. Read their manifesto. Know who you are defending.

You are simply suggesting that a country (Israel) should be destroyed.

Oh my! How terrible! But Israel has essentially destroyed Palestine. Why is that perfectly acceptable. Israel grabbed most of Palestine, and all the best land. A viable Palestine is almost impossible.

If we are truly hoping for equal rights and for peace...

You mean like the conditions in Palestine before the Zionists messed it up?

...the only solution is for there to be two nations, Israel and Palestine, side-by-side living in peace.

No, Israel has multiple times demonstrated it is unable treat the Palestinians has human beings. The Palestinians are left physically divided, with little and low quality land. We have to understand the terrible crime which has been committed against the Palestinians. This is not just two groups who can't get along, as you ALWAYS imply in your posts.

The best solution would be an internationally enforced one state solution, with Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others living in peace. In other words, as existed in Palestine a century ago.

moonbeam

This is a group that will send their youth to suicide before accepting peace.

We have to understand the terrible crime which has been committed against the Palestinians. Not just during January 2009, but during the last six decades, where they have continually suffered land theft, several carnages, overall abuse and terror. Just think of this as a six decade long holocaust. Yes, the inmates can try to negotiate peace, but they remain inmates in a concentration camp. Actually, the Palestinians tried many times to negotiate peace, but it never worked. Of course, the Palestinians always get blamed (falsely) for it.

Having said that, I am not saying Hamas' actions are perfect, but what else can they do? They could just quiet down and endure another 6 decades of imprisonment and abuse. Is that any better?

Sabi do you still hold the belief that Israel was firing rockets into their own country and framing the Palestinians for it?

Wabisabi,

Hamas' refusal to accept peace is what has created the terrible situation in Gaza and the reason why there is not a two state solution (don't forget that Hamas is still at war with Fatah, who control the west bank).

What's Hamas to do? Come on, man. For starters they can change their policy from "destruction" to "peace."

The past is the past. Both sides have sinned. Now they need to forgive and move forward. I can't believe you are defending this organization http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

Sabi do you still hold the belief that Israel was firing rockets into their own country and framing the Palestinians for it?

That is still a possibility. There was also a recent Haretz article about IDF wearing Hamas uniforms.

Wabisabi, please go to Wikipedia or any source of your choice and read the history of Palestine from the British Mandate period on forward.

Done that, but I do not trust Wikipedia in matters related to the Middle East. Your version of its history is very one-sided. It sure clears up why YOU feel this way, thanks.

A few more "victories" like this and their won't be a Gaza left to fight over.

The Israeli's should have squashed the Hamas once they had started the bombardment. Although this wasn't as bungled as the disaterous foray into the Lebanon, pulling out without erradicating the terrorists makes it a pointless conflict IMO.

Surprise...Surprise!!!!!

I told you as soon as Israel started attacking Gaza, that when Israel finally pulled out and if there was even 1 Hamas member still alive, he'd be declaring victory. It's no surprise, it's life.

So what did Israel get out of this? Satisfaction of killing 1300+ Gazans? $2Billion of destruction. Then they stop and pull out just before Obama takes his oath. Talk about a plan. Murder while george bush is still president. Pull out before Obama takes his oath.

Good going Israel. < :-)

But to say a similar thing about Israel/Palestine gets a "your antisemetic" response.

Sabi, you're the one posting the word "Holohoax" on these forums. Remember?

Well done Hamas, trying to protect your people against an overwhelming use of force. Them Israel's buggered off before Obama was elected in case he aint going to support them like silly boy Bush.

I hope the wicked Israeli policy of genocide will now end forever and the Gaza peopel can live in peace and harmony.

the Gaza peopel can live in peace and harmony.

Not as long as Islamic terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are around. The last thing these terrorists want is the Gaza people to live in peace and harmony. How can you mount a Jihad against the "Infidel" nation of Israel with a content population and no help from gullible first-worlders?

Snap outta it man.

Dear Sailwind: Before jumping into a discussion between two men, you should take the time to find out exactly what they are discussing. I asked specifically for a pic of a Hamas militant hiding behind a kid. You have not provided a pic of a Hamas militant hiding behind a kid. Neither has Bobbafett.

What part of "hiding behind a kid" did you fail to comprehend?

Have a nice day: likeitis

Well done Hamas, trying to protect your people against an overwhelming use of force.

I do not think that I have heard Hamas claim it would protect them against Israel. I have not heard that that Gazans elected them for that task. I think the Gazans know perfectly well they cannot win against Israel militarily. Its obvious enough to us, why not to Gazans too?

The Gazans are not trying to win any sort of military victory I think. I think they all know its hopeless, despite the psyching up they give themselves dreaming and screaming of the destruction of Israel.

What they want is world attention focused on their plight. And they are getting it. They want the world to believe that Israel is the prime instigator of their plight. And they are getting it. Hamas would seem to be winning the kind of victory they want. Whether the Gazans want that too is hard to tell, but I see more pictures of Gazans making themselves into human shields than I see them being made into human shields. In fact, I have not seen one picture of a Gazan being made into a human shield, much less a pic of a militant hiding behind a kid.

When people do that to themselves, I cannot help but think "Man, those people must really oppressed!". You might say "crazy", and I would not disagree. But that is what happens when you oppress people! Have a look at the Irish.

Kinniku, Wow, that sure is an interesting collection of distortions of my previous posts. The only one I'll bother respond to, because you've brought up almost daily, is the one about blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. If one looks at the original post and realize whose post I was responding to (Helter?) and what he/she had written, most normal people would not have a fit as you have. Your other points are just too distorted to bother. But hey, please do continue to shoot the messenger when you can't refute the message. Was it something I wrote that got you so upset? Such as: The best solution would be an internationally enforced one state solution, with Muslims, Jews, Christians, and others living in peace. In other words, as existed in Palestine a century ago.

Moderators, was it neccessary to delete the brief history summary?

Moderator: Yes, the purpose of the discussion board is for you to post your opinion, not give history lessons or post links to other sites.

Sabi,

I resent that you say that "my" history is one-sided. I have presented nothing but readily available cold facts that no one on either side would dispute.

I have been following Hamas for years. I am familiar with their principals. By defending them, you are rooting for an organization of killers. I want you to know that. An organization that REFUSES PEACE.

If you want freedom fighters, turn to Fatah or the PLO. I support Abbas, I think he's a good man. Hamas are killers with no respect to life. Don't blind yourself to these facts. Don't take sides in the endless "conservative" vs "liberal" debate. They don't apply here.

Do go to Hamas' website. Do read their platform. Do enlighten yourself straight from the source.

Sabi, you're the one posting the word "Holohoax" on these forums. Remember?

Helter, that is not a word that I use. Why would you say that I frequently use that word. Please look back at what I wrote about the subject, don't simply rely on kinniku's description of those discussions, he has a tendency to distort things somewhat.

Anyway, I do stand by what I said above. Most have been conditioned to find completely acceptable to criticize certain people: calling Arabs or Muslims terrorists, saying that we should bomb the hell out of their countries (most of your posts come to mind),... But to say anything remotely similar about Israel got the "you're an antisemite!" response.

In fact, I have not seen one picture of a Gazan being made into a human shield, much less a pic of a militant hiding behind a kid.

Why settle for a pic, when you can watch a video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TejVJWSTTpY

What a huge failure for Israel and what is more important a clear picture of how depraved the current Israeli government has become. No civil person would support that happend in the last few weeks in Gaza.

Israel needs their own Obama to save them from their hatred and stupidity.

Why settle for a pic, when you can watch a video.

I still did not see a militant hiding behind a kid.

Come on guys. You are accusing practically all Hamas of doing this. So while VOR managed to find a pic of people hanging out behind a militant smiling, and you, Sail, found some pics of people actually gathering on their own where the bombs are gonna drop (supposedly), and then a video shot down last week because it shows no one actually being used as a human shield, you guys still cannot find anything remotely solid to accuse even one Hamas militant of "hiding behind a kid".

I do appreciate your work in finding the pics and vids though. While it does not back up what you say, it has made me realize something: Gazans are apparently making human shields of themselves. They are putting themselves in harms way. That seems to be the truth of it by your images, although I want more evidence. (There was the speech by the Hamas leader who said all of Palestine is a human shield. That was also falsely used as proof of Hamas using human shields.)

If its true that people are making human shields of themselves, that means the ones saying the high civilian death toll is intentionally made by Israel are wrong (although Israel may still be intentionally targeting some civilians). It also means that those accusing Hamas of mass forcing people of people the be human shields are wrong (although I am sure it does happen at least some of the time). Please note that I never took either side anyway.

Meanwhile, the self sacrifice aspect is being ignored. And that is a shame because when people sacrifice themselves like that there has to be reasons. And I am sorry all you Islam haters out there, but while I admit that Islam is certainly a part of the reason, it can by no means account for the action of Gazans all by itself. I doubt its even the major portion of the reason. I am thinking both poverty and oppression are the main culprits.

I still did not see a militant hiding behind a kid.

Your about the only person that doesn't. You think the guy with the rifle just grabbed the child placed him in front of him and ran into more civilians was just having a little bit of fun with the lad?

You don't want proof you just want to argue. Goggle Hamas Human Shields video and then after you get the 219,000 hits. Start watching them and then get back to your wanting proof thing. It's all there in the videos.

You think the guy with the rifle just grabbed the child placed him in front of him and ran into more civilians was just having a little bit of fun with the lad?

I don't know and neither do you. Grabbing the kid like that is the kind of move my own step-father might have pulled when he was angry at me. It could have been anything. All the pics we have seen, including one of a militant firing his weapon with LOADS of unarmed people behind him, and you cannot find just one with a militant in the act of using him as a shield?

That would be MEGA vindication for the Israelis. They could not get any video footage of a Hamas militant kid in tow shooting at them? Was not worth risking a helmet cam for?

Goggle Hamas Human Shields video and then after you get the 219,000 hits. Start watching them and then get back to your wanting proof thing. It's all there in the videos.

Yeah, I have to do everything myself. Maybe for you, a couple words in a search engine and 219,000 hits is proof enough of anything, but it isn't for me. Here I thought I might save myself some time and get the best proof from the true believers, since you guys know. I guess not.

Likeitis,

You asked for a picture, you got one. Then you proceeded to dispute it. You asked for more proof and were provided a news article from the BBC and then you you changed your tune to "How Oppressed They Are to Do That". As if you actually believe they volunteered to form a Human shield and weren't coerced into it instead. Then you asked for more proof and were provided an actual video. And now you want to dispute that also.

Why do you ask for soemone to submit you proof for anyway. Anything that is presented you'll dismiss it anyway.

And if your stepdad grabbed you that way when he was angry, I sure hope he wasn't carry an AK-47 at the time and in a war zone. You might have gotten shot.

One can only hope that the future of the Israelis and Palestinians will not continue to be tied up in such hate and will move on toward an atmosphere of mutual understanding of the suffering both sides have been through. Wishing that Israel will somehow be destroyed has gotten the Palestinians nowhere and has only helped fan the fires of hate amongst people who would have hated anyway.

Moderator: Please stay on topic.

You asked for a picture, you got one. Then you proceeded to dispute it.

I asked for a picture of a militant hiding behind a kid. I still have not seen one. Its just that simple.

Note that that is different from pictures of militants using human shields, because a human shield does not need to be in front of the user.

If you are arguing that using a young person as a human shield is the same thing as "hiding behind a kid", that might explain the problem. Is that it? Let us get that cleared up first. Then there are some other things, some related to the following:

As if you actually believe they volunteered to form a Human shield and weren't coerced into it instead.

I have no real reason to doubt both types of people exist. Desperate people do desperate things. But what I am asking for is proof, because I am dead sick of all the hype.

In fact, I did a search and that led me to Youtube, where I saw videos claiming Israeli soldiers were using Palestinians as human shields. They were just as hyped from what I could see. What I saw were young men apparently under arrest or made to assist in one.

And if your stepdad grabbed you that way when he was angry, I sure hope he wasn't carry an AK-47 at the time and in a war zone.

Funny, but I was looking at the video (did you watch it?) and I did not see anybody shooting any guns. I saw one guy with a gun on his back, grab a kid and cart him off to the other side of the road toward a large group of people. End of video. What happened next? I refuse to fill in that blank with my imagination alone, nor yours. That is just not proof.

and then you you changed your tune

Hardly. I gleaned different information from your images, as they were irrelevant and inconclusive to the topic they were meant for.

Now, how about it? "Hiding behind kids" equals young people standing behind you or gathered at your house? Yes or no?

Myself: In fact, I did a search and that led me to Youtube, where I saw videos claiming Israeli soldiers were using Palestinians as human shields.

Which is funny, because what I typed in was "kid human shield", assuming Hamas related would pop up in spades. Boy was I surprised! A more biased person would have just put Hamas in the search, and found exactly what he wanted to see. Let me say that again, "exactly what he wanted to see!"

Does anybody with a brain in their head actually think that Israel, which has been on the defensive for over 50 years, enjoys going into battle every five or ten years?

Seriously, do the pro-Hamas, pro-Palestinian posters here think that Israel enjoys 'going back to 1967' and, as object of the lidless gaze of an almost universally hostile 24 hour int'l media, wants to jeopardize all they have worked for and achieved?

We are talking about a nation which has a globally integrated economy, a vibrant manufacturing sector, cutting edge IT and medical research facilities, a system of farms which are a miracle in the desert and a dynamic, liberal and tolerant culture producing world class artists - all in sharp contrast to its Arab neighbors.

likeitis,

I agree, the video that sailwind posted does not convince that Hamas uses children as shields. We have no idea what's going on in the video. For all we know, the Hamas soldier could have been saving the kid from a leftover cluster bomb that Israel left behind.

That said, maybe this video will convince you that Hamas uses children as shields. Here they can be seen firing from in front of a school. They do that so that Israel cannot attack them as they fire rockets: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JNQk2gbROk

and look, using a tv station as a shield: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lLmm3IoeLQ

Moderator: Please stay on topic.

Moderator,

I appreciate your request. However, I do find it interesting that this post is allowed to stay even though my post to which it is in response has been removed. Additionally, I also find it interesting that sabiwabi's accusing me of "distortions" is not 'offensive', but my pointing out actual false statements is 'offensive'. I guess quoting 'offensive' statements is 'more offensive' than the 'offensive' statements...What is most sad, is that the quotes I cut and pasted were taken right from this website and they are all written by the same poster...

Kinniku, Wow, that sure is an interesting collection of distortions of my previous posts. The only one I'll bother respond to, because you've brought up almost daily, is the one about blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. If one looks at the original post and realize whose post I was responding to (Helter?) and what he/she had written, most normal people would not have a fit as you have. Your other points are just too distorted to bother. But hey, please do continue to shoot the messenger when you can't refute the message

Likeitis

U.N Ambulance

I rest my case.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=MAR_Iwq9-R0&NR=1

I rest my case.

What case? The video is from 2004 and I don't see any kids in it! I don't even know where it was filmed!

What case? The video is from 2004 and I don't see any kids in it! I don't even know where it was filmed!

As I said earlier

Why do you ask for soemone to submit you proof for anyway. Anything that is presented you'll dismiss it anyway.

likeitis

It was probably produced by The Onion or something similar.

Moonbeams,

The opening explanation from your video says its from Jan 2009. Yet, here is the same video from May 2008

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=pwngzfgjorY

Strange eh? Anyhow, I never said Hamas does not use children as shields. I am sure they do. I will say it one more time: VOR said Hamas hides behind kids. I asked for a pic of a Hamas militant hiding behind a kid. I will take a video. But if I do not see a Hamas militant hiding behind a kid, you fail. Thank you.

And the video of the Graad rocket? Did not see the rocket sorry. In fact, I did not even hear it, despite the fact the lady said the sound was LOUD.

Better yet, despite the fact the video was posted on Jan. 20, 2009, the explanation of the video claims:

A week later the building was bombed.

Stay away from there Jan. 27. That is my advice.

Why do you ask for soemone to submit you proof for anyway. Anything that is presented you'll dismiss it anyway.

If it does not show a Hamas militant hiding behind a kid, it fails.

I ask for proof, because some of you will believe anything. It is simply astounding how some of you never question what you want to hear. Somebody said Hamas hides behind kids. And you are taking it as gospel just because that is what you want to believe. You have not one shred of proof of that specific scenario.

Now, I asked you a question, twice. You gonna answer it?

It was probably produced by The Onion or something similar.

goodDonkey, thanks for the smile.

But if The Onion got around to producing serious propaganda vids, I am not confident I could find the flaws half as easy, if at all.

Moderator: Stay on topic please. No further discussion of this video or The Onion, thank you.

I mistakenly accused VOR of something bobbafett said. Sorry VOR.

Anyway, can I get an answer to the question? When one declares "Hamas hids behind kids", is that just and an exaggeration of the human shield claim, or no? Is it literal, or no?

hamas is an irreparable, farcical, quaint smidgen that preexists themselves in an empty vacuum. so much so for a quasi-group trumpeting their irreconciliable demise.