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Hamas emerges weakened from Gaza war

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By KARIN LAUB and MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH

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"Weakened" in the sense that they lost a lot of their rockets and terror tunnels. But their PR campaign was a roaring success; the world`s media once again swung into full Israel-bashing mode and presented Hamas propaganda around the clock. And they still have their big sponsor, Qatar.

So, no, I don´t think the Hamas leadership is unhappy. They look forward to their "hudna", re-armament, and more attacks on Israel.

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The UN estimates more than 65000 Gaza residents will be unable to return to homes destroyed by artillery shells and missile impacts.

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Hamas blew $100 million on tunnels. They obviously think housing can wait.

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Swiss banks are eagerly waiting for Gaza reconstruction

Hamas leaders are going to make billions out of the dead and now the Palestinian authority guys are doing their best to get some share. the fastest way to make money - better than anything

Poor Palestinians - everyone is using them (except Egyptian leader Al Sisi who is the first Arab leader that is not using Palestinians for his political reasons. He is the first to understand what the middle east and the world is facing)

Israel is the frontier for Radical Islam VS Free World - all of the world must understand that before its too late

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They obviously think housing can wait.

@SuperLib By coincidence I was just reading about the Blitz (aka The Battle of Britain). Being as WWII was ongoing, it seems the British were a bit slow to rebuild as well, planting "victory gardens" where the rubble of buildings was cleared and also even one in a bomb crater.

I understand that there is still unexploded ordinance in Britain, and construction workers have to be careful of that even to this day.

I wonder if Palestinians have that problem? If the Israelis do, it must be 100 times worse in Gaza.

Also, I don't know how much wood and cement the Israelis are letting in these days. After 3 years of just outright banning them (while denying doing it) they finally relented and allowed wood and cement. But, the Israelis are not up front and honest about their control of imports. What can you expect from people who actually banned pasta into Gaza Strip?

I really don't understand all these high standards applies to Hamas in the face of such utter douchery.

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Desmond Tutu: "Israel has the right to exist"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zea-PJTVs

Crush Them,

The blockade of Hamas which has sadly also meant a blockade of Gaza by both Egypt and Israel. Egypt then opened the Rafah border for personal items and goods. Sadly, Egypt decided to again block building materials after discovering a tunnel in October 2013. That is the reason not much wood and cement is getting in. So, SuperLib's point is one to consider and not brush over so easily. Hamas uses materials it gets to build tunnels instead of housing. It has been caught selling aid it receives from the outside to Gazans when it is supposed ot be given to them for free.

Hamas are supposed to be helping their people. Perhaps that is why many hold them to a high standard when it comes to their treatment of their own people. This might also be the reason we have not seen another election for quite some time. Perhaps Hamas is afraid that the Palestinians are less than satisfied with their leadership.

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Crush Them : It's kind of hard to rebuild Palestine without building materials, At least limited materials should be allowed to come in, under the agreement of exactly where and how it will be used. How is Pasta a threat? I guess, same way the 8000 Palestinian olive trees, most of their water aquifers and electricity plants are considered a threat. Those basic necessities sure are dangerous if you are trying to oppress someone!

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@slumdog

Israel has a right to exist. So does Palestine. But it seems you can't absorb the second sentence for some reason.

And oh yeah. Egypt, Egypt, Egypt! Is that the same Egypt that got stomped by Israel in 1967? Why yes it is! They kowtow to Israel now. Didn't you know? If they help Gaza beyond pure humanitarian aid, they fear getting stomped again. If they jumped to the aid of Palestine in any way, SLAM, they would get creamed. And they know it. They cannot even help by doing nothing. And they know it.

Hamas uses materials it gets to build tunnels instead of housing.

Did it ever occur to you that since Israel has blocked damn near everything under the sun before, their only surefire way to make sure they get FOOD, MEDICINE and HOUSING materials is to BUILD TUNNELS?? Yes, they will also import weapons. But when enemy aircraft fly over your head each and every day, who wouldn't??

Hamas are supposed to be helping their people.

Its more like Israel is supposed to stop oppressing them! I don't think Hamas was elected on the platform you think they were elected on.

Perhaps that is why many hold them to a high standard when it comes to their treatment of their own people.

You expect far too much from an impoverished oppressed people and far too little from their rich oppressors.

This might also be the reason we have not seen another election for quite some time. Perhaps Hamas is afraid that the Palestinians are less than satisfied with their leadership.

Hamas sucks. They probably would lose. But you talk like if there were an election coming up, the Gazans would vote for Likud party!

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Crush Them,

Israel has a right to exist. So does Palestine. But it seems you can't absorb the second sentence for some reason.

Whatever makes you say that? I believe Palestine has a right to exist and I have pretty much written this in most of my posts on the subject. I am for a peaceful two state solution. No ifs, ands or buts. As I have said to you before, if you have a question for me, just ask. But, please do not put words in my mouth that are not there and that have never been there.

They kowtow to Israel now. Didn't you know?

Actually, when they 'kow tow' they do so to the US, not to Israel. However, the other reason for Egypt's attitude against Hamas is the Egyptian governments fears of their own extremists and not wanting any more trouble from Gaza. This is the same reason that when Egypt controlled Gaza that they pretty much sealed it up and Gazans could not cross the border into Egypt from 1948 to 1967.

Did it ever occur to you that since Israel has blocked damn near everything under the sun before, their only surefire way to make sure they get FOOD, MEDICINE and HOUSING materials is to BUILD TUNNELS??

Humanitarian aid does get through to Gaza, this does include food and medicine. It does not include housing materials because Hamas uses them to build tunnels into Egypt and Israel.

Its more like Israel is supposed to stop oppressing them! I

Yes, there is definitely some of that. However, the sanctions and then the blockade of Gaza were because of Hamas' actions, primarlly rejecting agreements the Palestiinian Authority had made with both Egypt and Israel.

I don't think Hamas was elected on the platform you think they were elected on.

I believe their main platform, apart from the destruction of Israel, was supposedly wanting to get rid of the corruption of Fatah and have a 'clean government'. However, as I have pointed out, Hamas has actually been caught stealing aid meant for Gazans and selling it to Gazans when they were meant to be receiving it for free.

Hamas sucks. They probably would lose.

I think Hamas would lose, too.

But you talk like if there were an election coming up, the Gazans would vote for Likud party!

Seriously, what exactly is this based on, because it is not based on anything that I have ever written. I do not support Likud and would be very happy if they were to be run out of office. This is especially true if Netanyahu is on the ticket.

Again, is it too much to ask you not to keep putting words in my mouth that are not there? Thank you.

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"The Gaza war has boosted the Islamic militant group’s popularity among Palestinians because it confronted Israel."

Question for Palestinians: Are you better off than you were before Hamas started their latest rocket barrage on Israel?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Question for Palestinians: Are you better off than you were before Hamas started their latest rocket barrage on Israel?

Were the Palestinians better off than before Zionists from Europe started to immigrate illegally and take their lands by violence? Absolutely.

From the aspect that is going to matter most over the long run, the Palestinians are definitely better off today than they were two months ago. The only reason you ask your question is because you are completely ignorant of that.

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Palestinians are definitely better off today than they were two months ago

Going to have to explain that one to me. I don't follow the crazies in the Middle East much but this doesn't seem likely.

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Hamas are gangsters who don't care at all about Palestinian people. They shoot knowing full and well that they will be targeted in response and then hid behind women and children.

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Did it ever occur to you that since Israel has blocked damn near everything under the sun before, their only surefire way to make sure they get FOOD, MEDICINE and HOUSING materials is to BUILD TUNNELS?? Yes, they will also import weapons

Did it ever occur to you that if Hamas and the Palestinians were not importing weapons there would be no need for tunnels? Hamas is made up of a bunch of religious crazies who care not a wit about the Palestinians. They consider every Palestinian death to be good PR - it is surreal have depraved they can be. The Palestinians get nothing for all of their support for Hamas. The building materials meant to build homes are used to build terrorist tunnels. Outside aid is sold for cash to buy weapons.

Were the Palestinians better off than before Zionists from Europe started to immigrate illegally and take their lands by violence? Absolutely.

That's absurd! The Islamic-fascists that constitute Hamas and other like minded people and countries in the Middle East have delivered only misery to the Palestinians. How many more dead Palestinians and how many more decades of suffering will it take for some to admit that the goal of killing off all of the Jews isn't working? It's long past time to try Plan B. Accept a Palestinian state that Israel would happily agree to if it meant an end to terrorism and let everyone get on with their lives already.

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Hamas wanted to negotiate, Hamas formed a unity government with Fatah and had accepted the US and EU terms for negotiations.

I did not miss your comment on the other thread. I commented on it and you did not respond. I wrote: Please show me where Hamas said it was willing to negotiate for peace with Israel and that it had accepted US and EU conditions to do so.

So, show me where Hamas has said it was willing to negotiate for peace with Israel and that it had accepted US and EU conditions to do so.

Oh, and speaking of Hamas wanting to destroy israel, who is destroying whom at the moment?

Hamas does have Israel's destruction in its charter. Do you agree that this is true? Since Hamas' only suggested solution is violence and the destruction of Israel, it is hard to see how anything will get better. A peaceful two state solution born of negotiations is the only answer. Hamas is against this. If they change their minds, I would be all for that.

Do you actually believe Hamas formed the unity government to "destroy israel"?

Until Hamas says otherwise, I have no reason to believe their goals have changed. Do you have any solid evidence to sway me?

You can continue repeating old slogans,

They are Hamas' present day 'slogans'. If you have any proof that Hamas really wants to negotiate for a true peace with Israel, I would love to see it. It would be great news. However, commentary by third parties, such as your youtube video above, do not count. I want to see Hamas actually say it.

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SlumDog: As you know, I don't support Hamas nor the Israeli government, neither side has shown they truly want peace. So we agree About Hamas but can you show me proof that Israel truly wants peace? They have talked the talk before but their actions and reactions prove otherwise. Please tell me how Israeli actions show they want peace, related to their actions I listed in my prior comment above. Do you approve of those actions and believe those are the actions of a state that wants peace?

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Whatever makes you say that?

@slumdog Your condemnation of Hamas is fierce. Your condemnation of Israel is weak at best.

You do not understand or accept the fundamental causes of the conflict or all that goes on. You paint Israel as the victim being forced to react when its quite the opposite at the fundamental roots.

More specifically, Palestine declared independence in 1988 but Israel has totally blocked that bid, even when things were calm in Palestine. Israel is denying Palestine the right to exist. Yet you condemn Palestinian resistance and act like Israel has no choice to squash them every few years.

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Stuart and Crush,

Cleopatla claimed Hamas was willing to negotiate for peace with Israel. This is incorrect. Why is it wrong for me to point this out. Cleopatla also claimed Egypt opening up their border with Gaza in 2011 was because of Morsi. Morsi was elected in 2012. Why is it wrong to point this out? Why is it wrong to point out incorrect information? Why is it you two do not also comment about these things?

As you know, I don't support Hamas nor the Israeli government, neither side has shown they truly want peace.

Now, I cannot stand Netanyahu and where he has taken Israel since he was elected, but Netanyahu has never said he never wants peace with the Palestinians. Hamas has stated many many times that they do not want a real peace with Israel, specifically and clearly. It is in their charter.

So we agree About Hamas but can you show me proof that Israel truly wants peace?

It is hard to say how far Netanyahu is willing to go because the Palestinians do not stick around long enough at the negotiating table to find out. However, Netanyahu has actually sat down at the negotiating table with Abbas. The only solution is negotiations until the problem is solved.

Do you approve of those actions and believe those are the actions of a state that wants peace?

No, I do not approve of those actions. However, until Israel has a real partner for negotiations, I forsee even more paranoia on the part of Israel. Until Hamas and the other militants are controlled or convinced to negotiate for a true peace, I cannot see anything getting better for the Palestinians.

slumdog Your condemnation of Hamas is fierce. Your condemnation of Israel is weak at best.

I am responding to unreasonable posts. That is all. Hamas leaves no room at the present time for peace or negotiations for a peaceful two state solution.

You do not understand or accept the fundamental causes of the conflict or all that goes on.

I understand it perfectly well. I also understand negotiations for a true peaceful two state solution is the only answer. You incorrectly attempted to claim I was not for a Palestinian state. I noticed you have not apologized for your error. Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth?

More specifically, Palestine declared independence in 1988

They did not declare their peaceful intentions to negotiate with Israel in 1988 for a peaceful two state solution.

Israel is denying Palestine the right to exist.

Without negotiations for a peaceful two state solution, Palestine can never be truly free. Israeli leaders have said several times that Palestine has a right to exist. The two parties must negotiate.

Yet you condemn Palestinian resistance and act like Israel has no choice to squash them every few years.

Until a time when the Palestinian leadership values the idea of sitting down at the negotating table and staying there unitl they get their independent Palestinian state, it will not happen. As Demond Tutu said, both sides, the Israelis and the Palestinians must work for a peaceful two state solution.

Hamas' actions this time directly led to this conflict. Hamas says they are not interested in a peaceful two state solution. Instead of working for the safety of their own people, they use violence to bring on more violence. What do you think the solution is?

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@slumdog

Good post. I'd consider myself more or less anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian, but you've made me think.

Thank you.

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Thank you too, lucabrasi. The feeling is definitely mutual.

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SlumDog: There is nothing wrong with pointing out faults with Hamas but it's clear you don't like to point out that Israel's has very simular faults to. I guess you have trouble reading because I DID acknoloege your points about Hamas. Lastly, I also stated Israel will talk peace but their actions speak otherwise. What good are pretend negotiations for peace, when ALL your past & present actions continuously undermine the chances for true negotiations for peace? That question applies to both states leaders. Without EACH sides commitment to stop destructive actions, is the greatest threat agaist a peaceful two state solution.

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Cleopatla claimed Hamas was willing to negotiate for peace with Israel. This is incorrect.

@slumdog Sorry. Stopped reading there. Why? Because the point is not peace and you know it. The point is recognition and an end to the occupation, and without it, there can be no peace. Of course! Occupation is not peace!

“ Israel is there, it is part of the United Nations and we do not deny its existence. But we still have rights and land there which have been usurped and until these matters are dealt with we will withhold our recognition.” ―Khaled Mashal

That from a man Mossad tried to assassinate with poison, who was actually comatose, who was only saved after Netanyahu was FORCED by Bill Clinton to handover the antidote.

But if you want to talk straight up peace, yes, I don't know that Hamas has ever offered a permanent peace as you think of it. Hamas leaders have said they are willing to negotiate a long term truce, a 10 year truce just recently.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/What-are-Hamass-conditions-for-a-cease-fire-363011

But without trying it, Hamas is not trusted by opponents. They claim it is just a strategic maneuver by Hamas, again, without trying it. How has there ever been peace without trying peace??

Also there is the point about the ten years not being permanent. However what is the difference? After WWI Germany signed a peace deal. Germany initiated another war 20 years later. So I ask you, what is the difference?

Even after the 67 war, Egypt and Israel did not sign a peace treaty until 1979. That's 12 years of unofficial hudna before a permanent peace deal. What's the difference?

The ten year hudna is renewable or replaceable with permanent peace such as Egypt signed for. After 10 years of peace, will Gazans be willing to go back to war? The only way to know is to try.

Of course a major sticking point is the right of return. Its just not possible. But its still not fair. Israel needs to come up with an offer to counterbalance, not just refuse.

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Me:"Question for Palestinians: Are you better off than you were before Hamas started their latest rocket barrage on Israel?"

yabits:"Were the Palestinians better off than before Zionists from Europe started to immigrate illegally and take their lands by violence? Absolutely.

From the aspect that is going to matter most over the long run, the Palestinians are definitely better off today than they were two months ago. The only reason you ask your question is because you are completely ignorant of that."

How about from the aspect that matters the most right now, the Palestinaians are definitely worse off than they were two months ago. This fact is undeniable.

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Stopped reading there. Why? Because the point is not peace and you know it.

Sorry, but peace is the point. It is the only point that matters. A peaceful two state solution. Hamas has said they are against this. I am for it.

But if you want to talk straight up peace, yes, I don't know that Hamas has ever offered a permanent peace as you think of it.

I know. Hamas has never offered a permanent peace. Actually, I would not expect a party to offer such a thing before negotiations. However, Hamas has specifically said that they will not make peace with Israel. Hamas has also specifically said they will not negotiate for peace with Israel.

Hamas leaders have said they are willing to negotiate a long term truce, a 10 year truce just recently.

I have discussed this several times, even mentioning it above. Hamas is specific and clear that the 10 year truce is non-renewable and Hamas leaders have been specific and clear that this hudna or 10 year non-renewable peace would be for the purpose of preparing for the liberation of all of Palestine: ie Israel. For the 10 year non-renewable truce, Israel is supposed to give back all of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Indepence also included Israel as a part of the territory they were claiming in their independence statement, so it hardly seems strange that Israel would not have been for it.

The deal is supposed to be land for peace, a true peace. Not land for a non-renewable truce that Hamas has already been on record as saying would be to prepare for the liberation of 'all of Palestine'.

So why do you think they formed the unity government?

I am not a member of the Hamas inner circle, but I assume it was so Hamas and Fatah would not fight with each other. Hamas has never stated they wanted a untiy government so that they could negotiate with Israel. You may be assuming such a thing, but they have never suggested it.

The borders were opened after Mubarak left the scene, yes

Nothing clever about it. The Egyptian Army was running the government during that time. Their policies are not that much different than Mubarak's as one can see now. They are the ones you say 'got rid of Morsi'. However, it was the Army government that opened the border, not Morsi. Morsi had nothing to do with it. It is a plain fact.

I am aware that Israel has done many horrible things. However, that is true of both sides. That is why a peaceful two state solution is the only answer and it should be done sooner not later.

It should be clear to any reasonable person that it is israel that is not interested in peace.

As Desmond Tutu said last month, it is time for the tit for tat to stop. Israel has entered negotiations for peace. Israel has traded land for peace. Right now, it is Hamas that specifically and clearly says they do not want to negotiate with Israel for a true peace. If that were to change, that would be wonderful. However, the situation now is that Hamas is against negotiating with Israel for peace.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Good post. I'd consider myself more or less anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian, but you've made me think.

Israel and Palestine are two names for the same land. No "division" made by Europeans could ever said to be a natural one.

If your path is leading your thinking to the possibility of a two-state solution, I would ask that you consider obtaining and watching the film Five Broken Cameras, jointly made by an Arab and Jew from Palestine. Take a good look at the settlement displayed in that film, and please let me know if you believe that the Zionist state would ever give that up.

Also, I would ask readers to consider the utter stupidity of negotiating for peace, and how increasingly stupid that becomes unless one side totally surrenders, which is what the Zionists are pressing for: total and unconditional surrender by the Palestinians. I am not opposed to negotiating per se, but certainly not for stupid and unrealistic things.

Genuine peace can only be attained after a long time -- a generation or more -- of living under agreements formed to first ease and then to cease hostilities. Consider this: There have been many occupations in history. Can you identify another one where the occupiers tout their moral superiority because of it? (Ask any Jewish citizen of the Zionist state and odds are they will tell you that the IDF is the most moral military force in history. Chances are they will quote Golda Meir when she said how angry it makes the Zionists that they have to kill Palestinian kids.)

The Zionists have always held out for an all or nothing approach, and then blaming the Palestinians when they ultimately couldn't accept the "all" (ie, total surrender). Consider the total dehumanization that the Palestinians have been subjected to in the minds of the people of the Zionist state (see link below), and then ask yourself if such a state could truly said to be seeking genuine "Peace." (The letter is from a University of Notre Dame professor, Curtis Franks, who is also an Orthodox Jew.)

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2014/08/an-open-letter-on-israel-and-gaza-from-notre-dame-philosophy-curtis-franks.html#more

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Lot's of intelligent people here. Yabits, I applaude you. Slumdog, i don't know what to say except that when you build a wall around someone, it only means one thing, CONTROL FREAK!

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Slumdog, i don't know what to say except that when you build a wall around someone, it only means one thing, CONTROL FREAK!

Yes, it could mean that. However, it could also mean that Israel was the victim of a lot of bombings and decided that a wall would be the best way to stop that from happening. You see, there was a time when Palestinians used to work in Israel and then travel back to the occupied territories. That is, until suicide bombings and bus bombings, etc started to take their toll on the population. That is when the wall went up.

Israel and Palestine are two names for the same land.

No, they are not. Not anymore. Israel is an independent country and recongized as such by the UN. Palestine will be formed from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. That is the reality of the peaceful two state solution. You know, the one you are against.

If your path is leading your thinking to the possibility of a two-state solution,

then you are on the correct path and we should hope that more and more people will soon be on that path. This includes the countries in the Middle East and especially Hamas and other militant extremists on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. The best thing to do is ignore those the claim the only solution is Israel's destruction for that is the same thing that has been said by the countries in the Middle East for decades now and it has only resulted in more and more misery for the Palestinians and it certainly has not made things pleasant for the Israelis either.

which is what the Zionists are pressing for: total and unconditional surrender by the Palestinians.

In the last real serious negotiations in 2000 and 2001, both sides were making serious concessions and both sides felt the talks were going very well. Both sides thought this. It is truly a shame that Arafat then went to Davos and made a speech basically decrying everything that was negotiated by both sides, especially after Shimon Perez had just made a speech showering Arafat with praises. They were so close. Because they could not do it, so many have suffered and died. Sorry, you are wrong. Compromise is not surrender. Peace is not surrender.

The Zionists have always held out for an all or nothing approach

Again, no. In the last real negotiations in 2000 and 2001, both sides were not only working well together, they were succeeding in bridging long held gaps. They merely needed more time. Sadly, Arafat saw fit for some reason not to continue or even make a counter offer. They were do close. They will be again someday. I know it. There are so many people on both side that want to live in peace in a two state solution. We just need them to be the ones in the negotiating chairs.

I am not opposed to negotiating per se, but certainly not for stupid and unrealistic things.

The problem with this statement is that you have stated that you think a peaceful two state solution is stupid and unrealistic. I counter that expecting Israel and Israelis to give up their country is much more stupid and unrealistic. The only solution is the solution that the UN endorses and that is the land for peace two state solution.

Before you consider checking out another of yabits' opinion pieces, please consider the words again of Mandela and Tutu:

Desmond Tutu calls for Israel, Palestine to stop tit-for-tat violence

Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu urged citizens of both Palestine and Israel to stand up and say enough is enough.

“Once again, the people of Israel and Palestine are embroiled in a deadly contest of tit-for-tat violence in which there can never be victors, only losers,” Tutu said today.

He said Israel would never achieve true security and safety through oppressing the Palestinians, and Palestine would never achieve peaceful self-determination through violence.

“No conflict is intractable; no disagreement so absolute that it can never be healed.

“The world is looking to Israelis and Palestinians to be bigger than themselves; to act now, before any more children are harmed,” said Tutu.

http://www.citypress.co.za/politics/desmond-tutu-calls-israel-palestine-stop-tit-tat-violence/

Mandela was critical of occupation, but fully endorsed Israel's right to exist

A survey of some of Mandela’s comments on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict evince that he was indeed highly critical of the Israeli occupation and the absence of an independent Palestine from map of the world. But Mandela fully endorsed Israel’s right to exist – and thought the Arabs states would need to reconcile fully with Israel in the context of a peace agreement.

“I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders.” – Israel visit in 1999

"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.” - Speech in Pretoria 1997 for International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/jerusalem-vivendi/.premium-1.562566

A real peace is a peaceful two state solution where both sides understand the other point of view and whose points are equally understood by the other side. It has happened in other conflicts and it will happen here. The problem has been that there are so many who give so many reasons why peace should not take place and so many reasons why there should not be a peaceful two state solution. It is my fervent hope that Israels and Palestinians alike will start to ignore these voices and follow the only correct path and that is the path of the peaceful two state solution.

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Slumdog wrote: ||Sorry, but peace is the point. It is the only point that matters. A peaceful two state solution. Hamas has said they are against this. I am for it.||

No you are not. What you are for (however unrealistically) is a Palestinian homelands (parks or reservations take your pick) solution. For a true two state solution to become achievable Israel would need to return (at least) behind the pre 1967 borders, entirely remove all post 1967 settlements and their inhabitants, entirely demolish all barrier infrastructure except along Israel's revised national borders, and formally forgo any controls on travel (including immigration) by non Israeli citizens outside of Israel. This is clearly not going to happen. That it did not will always be a great tragedy because it could have made (Palestine and Israel) a prototype for peaceful resolution of sovereign land disputes everywhere; thwarted the rise of radical islam (diverting it instead into an inward focused reformation or at least self reconciliation); brought greater tranquility to the middle east and Africa; and allowed the UN to evolve as a respected neutral arbiter for peace rather than a blue tin policeman. What it now seems likely we will get in place of these dreams are untold generations of apartheidic bloodshed, misery and despair; accompanied by evermore circular rationalizations of asymmetric military |peacekeeping| to |quell radical extremists driven by religious hatred|. [By the way, the land which Israel gave (back to) Egypt in their peace treaty was the entire Sinai Peninsula (about 60,000 square kilometers total area). When Israel claims it gave back more than 90% of the land it had "acquired" by wars (since 1948) for peace that just means it pulled out of the Sinai (as both the U.S. and France pressured it to do in exchange for financial support). The entire Gaza strip is about 360 square kilometers total area (up to the fence lines) including the now inaccessible airport opened by Arafat in 1998, bulldozed by the IDF in 2001, and occupied by Israel as an army base since 2006.]

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No you are not. What you are for

No, I am sorry. That is not how a conversation is supposed to go. You can ask what I am for, but please do not put words in my mouth that I have never written.

For a true two state solution to become achievable Israel would need to return (at least) behind the pre 1967 borders, entirely remove all post 1967 settlements and their inhabitants, entirely demolish all barrier infrastructure except along Israel's revised national borders, and formally forgo any controls on travel (including immigration) by non Israeli citizens outside of Israel.

I would be okay with this. This was basically what the Israelis and Palestinians were working towards in 2000 and 2001.

This is clearly not going to happen.

I disagree. It will happen someday and it must happen someday. The two parties have no choice and the world has no choice.

That it did not will always be a great tragedy because it could have made (Palestine and Israel) a prototype for peaceful resolution of sovereign land disputes everywhere; thwarted the rise of radical islam (diverting it instead into an inward focused reformation or at least self reconciliation); brought greater tranquility to the middle east and Africa; and allowed the UN to evolve as a respected neutral arbiter for peace rather than a blue tin policeman.

I agree. I still believe this can happen.

[By the way, the land which Israel gave (back to) Egypt in their peace treaty was the entire Sinai Peninsula (about 60,000 square kilometers total area

Yes, which shows that Israel has given back land for peace. I believe this can happen with the Israelis and Palestinians, as well.

Next time, if you want to ask me something about how I feel, please do so. But please do not put words in my mouth. I really dislike that.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Many Palestians living in Gaza simply hate every side of this war. But the opinion of the people really don't matter. Hamas will not allow its rival to establish a monopoly of force in Palestinian territories. For Hamas to accept Fatah rule is for Hamas to sign its own death warrant. It is unlikely Fatah will be so tolerant twice, especially since it knows to expect no reciprocity. Some people believes that Palestinian democracy will be an essential component of any lasting piece. If there was elecction, it would probably break Hamas’s control over Gaza. But what kind of free and fair elections can there be if Hamas holds on to its weapons? The Bush administration sure made the wrong call and sided with Abbas, over Israeli objections.

In the future, elections might be part of the solution in the West Bank in Gaza. If held now, it is difficult to imagine how they could be free or fair. Hamas face significant risks if the current war continues. The best strategy for Israel is simply to wait and see if conditions change in a manner favorable to peace. This war will almost certainly give Hamas a temporary boost, and the best hope may be for time to work against it. If you enter negotiations without leverage, you are likely to get a deal that damages your interests.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

SlumDog: No reply? Saying that I never critsize Hamas, while I stated that I actually agreed with your prior comments agaist Hamas? Typical pattern on these threads, avoidance, denial, deflection, change of subject and inability to respond to the content of what was actually said. Let's see, you support MOST Israli actions, including not allowing basic necessities into Palestine, the Great Wall, forced military training, and still can't tell me how Destroying 8000 palestanian olive trees, most of their water aquifers and electrical plants is helpful for the peace that you claim to want?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

That is, until suicide bombings and bus bombings, etc started to take their toll on the population. That is when the wall went up.

It seems you've never asked yourself "why" did the Palestinians have to resort to suicide bombings. Maybe you have. It's a very desperate act.

I'm not sure why people can't understand that when Israel created their country out of stolen land, that the occupants would not like it. They people living on it are now slaves. The US has to give Israel free money to support this slavery, otherwise the country would collapse. The MSM has to promote this Israel to justify this free money because the MSM is just a tool of USA Inc.

-4 ( +3 / -8 )

No reply? Saying that I never critsize Hamas, while I stated that I actually agreed with your prior comments agaist Hamas?

I replied and said I agreed with your comments above.

You asked:

Do you approve of those actions and believe those are the actions of a state that wants peace?

I answered:

No, I do not approve of those actions.

Why do you insist I keep repeating myself? I further have been specific on this site that I am against further settlement building in the occupied territories. I am against the killing of innocent civilians. I feel Israel should be required to compensate the families of the victims.

Typical pattern on these threads, avoidance, denial, deflection, change of subject and inability to respond to the content of what was actually said.

You often write this after I have already answered your questions and responded to your posts. Perhaps you need to read more carefully. As you can see, I seem to be the center of attention in these discussions you will forgive me if I do not put your name on every response I give to you. However, respond I have.

Let's see, you support MOST Israli actions, including not allowing basic necessities into Palestine, the Great Wall, forced military training,

Well, that is quite a mixed bag you've got there. Basic necessities do get into Palestine. Are you aware that Hamas has a history of stealing them from UN trucks and selling them back to Gazans when the Gazans should be getting them for free? Egypt was even letting in buidling materials until Hamas used them to make tunnels instead of using them to make housing. The wall was built to prevent bombings in Israel. It was the idea of Yitzhak Rabin, Nobel Peace Prize winner. Bombing dramatically decreased when the wall went up. I disagree about the line on which it was built, but it would have to be taken down with any peace agreement anyway, just as the settlements would have to be removed.

and still can't tell me how Destroying 8000 palestanian olive trees, most of their water aquifers and electrical plants is helpful for the peace that you claim to want?

I have already said above that I am against such actions. However, both sides have done things that are against peace. Both sides need to negotiate for peace. Only one party, Hamas and the other militant groups Hamas supports, is completely against peace with Israel or negotiations for peace with Israel. That is a complete non-starter. The two sides were extremely close in 2000 and 2001. Not making the deal when they had the chance has given the Palestinians 14 more years of misery. I am especially against this.

It seems you've never asked yourself "why" did the Palestinians have to resort to suicide bombings. Maybe you have. It's a very desperate act.

Hamas are desperate, huh? Hamas has been against peace with Israel and negotiations for peace with Israel from the beginning. Hamas used physically and mentally challenged adults and they also used children in their suicied bombings on Israel. I would use another word rather than 'desperate'. I would use the words 'sick' and 'cruel' instead. So, excuse me if I do not have that much pity for Hamas specifically. Hamas uses it own people and it does not want peace or negotiations for peace with Israel. There is nothing I want to understand there. If Hamas were to change and want to neogtiate for a peaceful two state solution with Israel, I would be all for that. However, at this time, their position has not changed.

Child suicide attacks 'must stop' Palestinian suicide bomber Amer al-Fahr Amer al-Fahr's mother said he was too young to attack Israel An international human rights group has called on Palestinian militants to stop using children in suicide bombings and military attacks.

Yet the Human Rights Watch report claimed that the three most active militant groups - Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade - have all despatched under-age bombers during the four-year-old conflict with Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3979887.stm

The young lad with a bomb strapped around his waist waited while the Israeli army brought in a bomb disposal robot; he waited while a phalanx of photographers assembled; for an Israeli major from the public relations department and for some sharp scissors. Frightened out of the few wits he had to start with, the boy struggled to turn the suicide bomber's belt around and to cut himself out - all the while complaining that he did not want to die, he did not want to set the bomb off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/28/israel1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

SlumDog: Was this your example of agreeing with me? Stuart & Crush, why is it you to don't comment about theses things? One thing being (Hamas peace negotiations), which I DID comment on, the other being on the topic of Egypt & Morsi which I know very few facts about so I don't comment one way or the other. Do you approve of those actions and believe those are the actions of a state that wants peace? You said you don't approve of those actions but AVOIDED answering if you believe those are actions of a state that wants peace. You say you can't stand Netanyahu but he never said he never wants peace with Palestine?? What? I made the point twice, it's NOT about his words, it's about his ACTIONS and those actions are of someone who doesn't truly want peace!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

One thing being (Hamas peace negotiations), which I DID comment on

Sorry, maybe you can refresh my memory because Hamas is against peace negotiations with Israel. Did you say you were against this?

You said you don't approve of those actions but AVOIDED answering if you believe those are actions of a state that wants peace.

Please re-read what I wrote as I did also respond to this. I will not do so again. Read it again and then ask me any questions you have about what I wrote. It was a pretty long post.

Both sides commit actions and reactions that are completely counterproductive. Anyone who attempts to deny this is denying reality. However, in the end it is about being able to move on from what has been done and being willing to just sit down and talk and negotiate for a true peaceful two state solution. For all that I can't stand the man, Netanyahu has done that in the past. Hamas has been unwilling to. That is where I stand on this.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Hamas only started firing rockets AFTER the israelis murdered 8 Palestinians

Rockets were coming out of Gaza before that. Hamas is on record as saying they supported the groups that were shooting the rockets out of Gaza into Israel, even if it was not Hamas themselves.

Hamas knows two things: One, most Palestinians do not support rockets being shot from the Occupied Territories into Israel. Two, Israel is going to react disproportionately against rocket attacks. Israel always does. Now, I think Israel is wrong for this, just as I think Israel's disproportionately actions in the West Bank were wrong, but Hamas knows what Israel is going to do every time it approves of other groups shooting rockets or Hamas shooting them themselves. The rockets do not make things better for the Palestinians, they make them so much worse. This has always been true.

The israelis have no legitimate excuse to do what they are doing.

Actually, they do and it is Hamas that gives it to them. Hamas says they are against peace with Israel. Hamas says they are against negotiations for peace with Israel. When I say peace, I do not mean non-renewable 10 year truces in exchange for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip that Hamas leaders are on record as saying they are offering because they realize they cannot get 'all of Palestine' ie: Israel all at once and are willing to settle for getting it all in stages, so the truce is to be used to prepare for that. I am talking about a peaceful two state solution. Hamas is considered and designated a terrorist organization by Israel, the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, the European Union, Jordan, Egypt, Australia, and Japan. The fact that they are against peace with Israel under any circumstances and that they have this in their charter gives legitimacy to Netanyahu. You see, Netanyahu can be voted out of office quite easily. If Hamas were to take away the legitimacy of the fear of terror and work for peace instead, Netanyahu would be out of office within a year. Barak was voted into office because of his promise to make peace. Barak left Lebanon as he promised and entered peace negotiations as promised. Why would Hamas keep giving Israel the excuse for paranoia?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

SlumDog: Thank you for finally answering my questions. Refresh my memory? I just did in the last post, I showed your reply to crush and myself. I agreed with your opinion on Hamas but you still asked why I don't comment on these subjects. I also really agree with the first paragraph of your last post but then you lost me by saying Israel has a legitimate excuses to what they are doing. This has been going on for too long, for either sides actions to be justified!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Why would Hamas keep giving Israel the excuse for paranoia?

So that the mainstream Zionists can use it to kill and brutalize Arabs indiscriminately with high public approval, build more illegal settlements, while nullifying the domestic peace movement that had become such a thorn in Sharon's side.

That is why the Zionist state created Hamas. (They wanted a more radical "counter-balance" to the moderate Fatah, with whom some type of peace was a greater likelihood.)

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@yabits

So that the mainstream Zionists can use it to kill and brutalize Arabs indiscriminately with high public approval, build more illegal settlements, while nullifying the domestic peace movement that had become such a thorn in Sharon's side.

Hamas needs to be killed. I don't have a problem with that. you shouldn't either. There is no difference between Hamas and Al Qaeda, they follow the same mantra, ideology, viewpoint on the Issue of the US and Israel, Jihadists, yup, kill them, that pretty much sums it up.

That is why the Zionist state created Hamas. (They wanted a more radical "counter-balance" to the moderate Fatah, with whom some type of peace was a greater likelihood.)

That comment was just as bad as when you libs want to keep blaming Bush for all the troubles in the world. lol

I am just happy that Israel doesn't have to listen to bloggers, UN and the world what they think, otherwise Israel would cease to exist. As Dennis Prager so accurately put it. If Israel would put down ALL of their weapons today and would swear NEVER to pick up any arms, open the blockades, there would be a bloodbath and another genocide or there would be peace and I would submit to you, it'd be the first without a doubt. Hamas IS and always will be the wedge and the problem that will block Israel from EVERY having real peace.

Never again!

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Stuart,

I also really agree with the first paragraph of your last post but then you lost me by saying Israel has a legitimate excuses to what they are doing

Sorry, for my confusing language. I am saying Hamas legitimizes Israeli actions with their refusal to agree to negotiate for peace with Israel. ie: It gives an internationally acceptable excuse for Israeli actions. Were Hamas to take that away, I think Netanyahu would be forced to come to the negotiating table with the Palestinians, including Hamas, for a real peaceful two state solution. Take away the terrorists on the Palestinian side and Israel has no excuse not to have a real dialog with the Palestinians. Now, they can just say, "Well, even if we make a deal with Fatah, it doesn't matter because Hamas will be against it. I hope it is clearer what I was trying to say. You see, I do not like Netanyahu to have that excuse.

yabits,

You have misrepresented out conversation and what you wrote:

slumdogAug. 10, 2014 - 12:03PM JST

Why would Hamas keep giving Israel the excuse for paranoia?

So that the mainstream Zionists can use it...

Ah yes, that leads us to yesterday's exchange:

slumdogAug. 09, 2014 - 12:50PM JST

yabits once wrote that Hamas is a dream for the Israeli extremists . I agree with that.

yabitsAug. 10, 2014 - 02:18AM JST

As yabits has pointed out, Hamas is a dream for mainstream Zionists in Israel.

So, you are claiming that I misquoted you and you did not suggest it was Israeli extremists. But, you see, you have a problem:

yabitsJul. 14, 2014 - 12:18PM JST

Hamas is an answer to the Zionist hard-liners' prayers . The Zionists then have an excuse to engage in unfounded and illegal overreach that kills scores of innocent people.

slumdogJul. 14, 2014 - 12:37PM JST

The question is, why would they want to be this answer. Why wouldn't they want to be an answer to the Gazans' prayers, instead?

Just in case you will try to wiggle out of this, 'extremist' and 'hardliner' are basically the same thing, Although I would even suggest that my word 'extremist' is even stronger than your word 'hardliners'. But, let's say they are the same.

You know there are moderate and liberal Israelis. You know they are Zionists. Now, you also know what you said. Please do not correct me when I am already correct.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hamas needs to be killed. I don't have a problem with that. you shouldn't either.

The One I believe in has a problem with calling out for the death of other human beings.

If Israel would put down ALL of their weapons today and would swear NEVER to pick up any arms, open the blockades, there would be a bloodbath and another genocide or there would be peace

That is stupid on so many levels. First of all, there was a time when Jews, Muslims and Christians all shared Palestine peacefully. The Jewish population was a minority, with less than 10% of the population at the time. Muslims had a large majority. For centuries, there was no bloodbath. Secondly, the Zionist state does not have to put down its weapons, and there has never been a requirement for them do so. They should however stop using them to kill innocent people.

Hamas IS and always will be

If's it's not Hamas, it will be some other group your puppet-master will supply for you.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

SlumDog: Thank you for Clarifying, as I've always said, if one side could stop its violent actions or reactions for a long enough period of time, the world would truly support them and act against the the aggressor. But I respectfully disagree that either sides poor actions are justification of more violent reactions. It's my view that is the very "core" of why this has been repeating itself for so many years! When you wrote, (it gives an internationally acceptable excuse for Israeli actions) I imagine you were only speaking of their violent reactions. Because the UN and the WORLD are totally against the building of more Illegal settlements, those actions are internationally considered illegal without any justification.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just in case you will try to wiggle out of this, 'extremist' and 'hardliner' are basically the same thing, Although I would even suggest that my word 'extremist' is even stronger than your word 'hardliners'. But, let's say they are the same.

Perhaps in your world. But that would mean a "hard-line ruling coalition" is the same to you as an "extremist ruling coalition." I refer to Likud as hard-liners. If you want to call them extremists that is your prerogative.

Nevertheless, the hard-liners' position is mainstream Zionism. (It's why they fostered Hamas in the first place.)

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

I refer to Likud as hard-liners. If you want to call them extremists that is your prerogative.

No, what you did was claim I misquoted you by correcting my post and changing the word from 'extremist' to 'moderate'. That was dishonest:

slumdogAug. 09, 2014 - 12:50PM JST

yabits once wrote that Hamas is a dream for the Israeli extremists . I agree with that.

yabitsAug. 10, 2014 - 02:18AM JST

As yabits has pointed out, Hamas is a dream for mainstream Zionists in Israel.

You 'corrected' what I wrote, but you misrepresented what you wrote in the process. You did not write 'mainstream' in July.

yabitsJul. 14, 2014 - 12:18PM JST

Hamas is an answer to the Zionist hard-liners' prayers . The Zionists then have an excuse to engage in unfounded and illegal overreach that kills scores of innocent people.

slumdogJul. 14, 2014 - 12:37PM JST

The question is, why would they want to be this answer. Why wouldn't they want to be an answer to the Gazans' prayers, instead?

So, you completely and absolutely misrepresented what you wrote in July when you 'corrected' what I wrote.You acknowledged that there were 'hard liners' and that they were what Hamas considered a dream. If you acknowledge there are hardliners, that means you must be aware there are also moderate and liberal Zionists as well. Otherwise, the term which you yourself used, hardliners, is completely unnecessary. You have been caught yabits. You wrote it and I quoted it. You attempted to make it seem as though I misquoted you, and you wrote wrong.

(It's why they fostered Hamas in the first place.)

There were people in Israel who, at the time, that Hamas with their religion and charity works, would be more trustworthy than Fatah which is acknowledged to have been filled with corruption and deceit. Hamas was seen as a moral alternative to Fatah by some religious people at the time. It seems they were wrong. It is not the first time in the history of mankind that people have misjudged people in the incorrect sense. Thinking they were a good alternately, when it turns out they were a worse one. The US originally supported Osama bin Ladin, which later turns out to have been a huge mistake. Your friends at Neturei Karta support Hamas financially and agree with their actions. Some peaceful people you have there. Neturei Karta supports the violence that Hamas does. Neturei Karta are a fanatic group and their support of Hamas merely reconfirms this.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If you acknowledge there are hardliners, that means you must be aware there are also moderate and liberal Zionists as well.

The hard-liners are in power. A high percentage of the non-Arab population supports their indiscriminate killing of Arabs in Gaza. That makes them mainstream to me.

There were people in Israel who, at the time, that Hamas with their religion and charity works, would be more trustworthy than Fatah which is acknowledged to have been filled with corruption and deceit. Hamas was seen as a moral alternative to Fatah by some religious people at the time. It seems they were wrong. It is not the first time in the history of mankind that people have misjudged people in the incorrect sense.

Wow... some misjudgment. And this is how they take responsibility -- by killing innocent people in Gaza by the hundreds.

Your friends at Neturei Karta support Hamas financially and agree with their actions. Some peaceful people you have there.

Righteous people.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

That makes them mainstream to me.

Nope. You changed what I wrote. You specifically changed my wording of extremist to mainstream. You changed the meaning of what I wrote to suggest I was mistaken and that you wrote mainstream instead of hardliner. Mainstream and moderate are generally considered to represent the same things. You originally wrote, and I believe it was correct as you wrote it that Hamas was a dream to the hardliners, yes I would agree the present government fits that bill, I agreed with that and you saw fit to change it to suggest that you did not say that. What other reason would you have had for changing the wording? The answer: none. You completely misrepresented what you wrote and you got caught. It is not the first time you have been caught like that. Remember when you suggested it was Israel that first claimed Hamas had captured the Israeli soldier when it was actually Hamas that first claimed it? Anyway, you support Hamas, so I would question your definitions and perspective at any rate.

Wow... some misjudgment.

No, what I wrote is correct.

And this is how they take responsibility

? Hamas does not want peace with Israel. Hamas does not want to negotiate for peace with Israel. It is Hamas' responsibility to not attack Israel and to make peace.

Righteous people.

Righteous people do not support violence and terror. Hamas is against peace and negotiations for peace. Neturei Karta supports the Hamas position. Neturei Karta is also responsible for the deaths in Gaza. Nothing peaceful or righteous about that.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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