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Harris trip to Poland takes a turn over jets for Ukraine

43 Comments
By AAMER MADHANI and LISA MASCARO

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The story with the Soviet jets for Ukraine is a pure bluff story or a suicide mission for the few remaining Ukrainian pilots. The US/UK declared goal is to prolong the war to increase its cost on "Putin", forgetting about the horrendous cost of human lives, without a single step towards war de-escalation.

-8 ( +12 / -20 )

Why? Because Biden was fine with Poland giving the jets direct. And then BUYING replacements from him?

The deal would involve Poland donating its old Russian-made MiG fighters to Ukraine, and then replacing them with the purchase of U.S.-made F-16 jets.

so why is it not fine for Poland to give the jets to Biden for him to give to Ukraine?

cause he wants to say Poland did it not him. “Mr the buck stops with me”strikes again.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

The fighter jet thing just sounds like a bad idea. For the cost of those jets you could send huge numbers of drones that would be way more effective (judging from what they've done so far) than manned aircraft at inflicting losses on the Russians.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

The fighter jet thing just sounds like a bad idea. For the cost of those jets you could send huge numbers of drones that would be way more effective (judging from what they've done so far) than manned aircraft at inflicting losses on the Russians.

Agreed. The Bayraktar are overperforming so far. Lots of bang for the buck out of anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons as well.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

It’s a convoluted hands off approach Poland gives up its jets and get a fleet of F16s . Hard to say NO. Mmmm crappy old technology or …..holy crap these things jump. Plus the ground support. And inheriting the overwatch from NATO. It makes sense. Putin can threaten but with what? A hord of confused conscripts that really just want to go home.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

“The authorities of the Republic of Poland ... are ready to deploy, immediately and free of charge, all their MiG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America,” the foreign ministry said, according to Reuters.

How could America, Poland and Germany possibly think Russia won't react to this action, which warrants a direct attack against them???

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/poland-ready-send-fighter-jets-212211724.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

How could America, Poland and Germany possibly think Russia won't react to this action, which warrants a direct attack against them???

I believe they are pushing him to react.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

How could America, Poland and Germany possibly think Russia won't react to this action, which warrants a direct attack against them?

Ah invading a sovereign country would also count as a direct attack. Or is that ok? Because I really don’t like the way my neighbour’s look at me.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

The story with the Soviet jets for Ukraine is a pure bluff story or a suicide mission for the few remaining Ukrainian pilots. The US/UK declared goal is to prolong the war to increase its cost on "Putin", forgetting about the horrendous cost of human lives, without a single step towards war de-escalation.

This is true, and why they sent Kamala.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Ukraine asks for planes and russia says if they are supplied the country that does it is in effect part of the war. US suggests Poland hand over their planes and in effect asking poland the country that has 1 million refugees, who have already been bombed out of their country to re-enter the war whilst the US takes zero risk.

All is well but the polish being savvy offer for the US and Germany to join in the risk and the US run as fast as their jelly legs can away from the issue.

Maybe unilateral talks between NATO countries is not a good idea and NATO itself should be taking the lead on the decision making.

At least in many places normal civilians have been able to move closer to safety. Lets hope those in mariupol get a forth chance. Not sure who is stopping it as depends on the news-media outlet.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The time has come for the Ukrainians to take the fight to Russia and stop sitting and waiting for Putin to decide the next step.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Sheesh. The Poles really put their foot in it. One does not "blindside" (state publicly without prior consultation) a partner with such a proposal.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

The sad thing about this is if it was 80 years ago, France and England as world powers would have done what they did when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. They gave a deadline to halt the invasion and if it hadn't been stopped by the deadline then they would be at war. The US does not have the same fortitude or backbone to stand up for Ukraine militarily, and neither does NATO or the EU apparently. Yes that would mean a wider ranging war but would help Ukraine resist Russian invasion and mean that Russia takes more than economic damages. Russia is a bully and when they are confronted they back down.

The message to Putin is simple. Stop your invasion and leave or we will join the fight. If you escalate further then we will also. Either way you will not be permitted to simply destroy a nation at your whim. You will not be permitted to remove free will from any nation. Attempts to do so will ensure your nation and many others will also face much destruction. There can be no winner, everyone will lose, including Russia. Leave now or else.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Posters, Feb 15: Russia will never invade. Biden is a warmonger.

Posters, March 1: Russia's invasion was well known about. This is Biden's and NATO's fault.

Posters, today: Biden should approve a NATO war against Russia. Non-intervention is Biden's fault.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

@Laguna

It is entirely possible if the polish had not made this public they would have been pushed into something they did not want to do. It maybe this was their only way to prevent being forced into the war.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

M. Jamil

The story with the Soviet jets for Ukraine is a pure bluff story or a suicide mission for the few remaining Ukrainian pilots.

Not suicide, they are trained fighter pilots not trained infantry. they will fight either way but would do much more damage to the invaders with planes.

The US/UK declared goal is to prolong the war to increase its cost on "Putin",

What a huge LIE! The US/UK declared goal is to end the war immediately! They intend to make it cost Putin as much as possible in order to do that. Your propaganda is horrible but so is Putin's.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

Polish Government is sick. As they had a lot of money. Give away jets for free and get involved passively into this war. Then buy another old ones from US. I think US knows well how to make a business and screw "old allies". The blame is here to naive Poland. They get too much into not their business such as going to Ukraine during the protests years ago to add more fire to it.

Oh, we went through the same in 70s and 80s. Now we come here to help you dear Ukrainians. We know what does this mean. Even if you murdered 1000s of Poles, we are here for you. Now we are communistic Gov. again. No respect of law and everyone around us is our enemy. Germans are enemy because they will grab our land, Russia is enemy because they attacked us during WWII and EU is enemy. because they take our freedom, though money from EU are welcome. US was for a bit was enemy too, because they gave up to install rocket system during Bush era.

War is bad and Putin is sick too but Poland shouldn't get involved As someone wrote above Biden will say: it was Poland not us US again use Poland to do dirty work and Poland is naive enough to follow and spend tax money for old jets But, wait! Oh America will protect them. War is business. Look how weapon is selling well to Ukraine by many countries. I guess many old Kawashikov left in stock to give away too. Watch out because this may turn against everyone

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

The suggestion of providing a swap “process” is not a blindside.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken did say on Sunday that the U.S. was working with Poland on plans to supply Ukraine with fighter jets, and to “backfill” Poland’s needs. The Polish government, however, made clear that it would not send its fighter jets directly to Ukraine or allow its airports to be used.

The Polish Government has cannily forced the issue politically.

How these MiG-29’s “appear” on Ukrainian soil is another matter.

It a tad weighty to hide up your jumper    

On the point Vice President Kamala Harris' trip to Warsaw. It would be advantageous in the current political/diplomatic situation if a full brigade of diplomatic corps are on hand close by.

Close hand? I mean inches not feet.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

This could go horribly wrong.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I am sure in WW2 there was a similar stand-off with UK, Canada and the US. Effectively the US did not want to help the UK because it would mean entering the war. We (UK) sent over Rohald Dahl to stay with Roosevelt and feed back on his mood.

Not sure send JK Rowling anywhere would help this time. Does she have any polish friends in the white-hourse.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Pentagon quickly dismissed the idea as “not tenable.”

It's actually a great idea. They should do it. The US do not need those planes, they have plenty and the Ukrainians need Migs.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@Peter

You obviously did not hear what zelenski said to the UK parliament yesterday and what the various party leaders replied.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmwlZ0f401w&t=6s

skip to 14.00...

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Hot potato. Better to have kept schtum about the planes until the logistics had been worked out.

Now NATO looks weak and divided, and Poland cannot be sure Biden has its back - after all , the Americans only got involved in WWII after the Japanese forced their hand.

POTUS to call Putin and cry uncle?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

good bye common sense...how this could "help"?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

good bye common sense...how this could "help"?

Having fighter jets to help Shoot down Russian jets and have the skies contested makes it much safer for Ukrainians in cities. And more dangerous for Russian convoy's and tank columns.

It's ok, not everyone can have an understanding of military matters.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Peter

Borris said the other day in parliament it was not that easy to bomb that big long line of tanks. He did not explain why though. It does look like a sitting target.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Stingers and Javlins are fine with tactical support and disrupting enemy manoeuvres. Instead of air power and wasting trained pilots in combat, a cruse missile system would take the fight to the Russian army in their own territory and prevent sending their fighter jets and bombers in the first place. Enabling the Ukrainian force's to disrupt the rail network that provides logistical support as well destroying artillery pieces that are making life hell at the moment might be a better use of resources. A couple of submarines probably wouldn't go awry either with the ability to hem in the Russian fleet in the Crimea and at the gates off Turkish territorial waters. In my humble opinion and these measures would send a very clear message to the people of the Russian Federation that their leadership is embarking on a very precarious course of action that does have real consequences for their own safety and well being and doesn't really have their interests at heart.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Borris said the other day in parliament it was not that easy to bomb that big long line of tanks. He did not explain why though. It does look like a sitting target.

Bombing all 40 miles at the same time would require a hell of a lot of resources. They would have their own version of "stingers" for low flying aircraft. High altitude bombing with guided munitions would do it but again many planes would be needed.

Better to target the head and tail of the convoy and then over days work on the rest at alternate points.

Artillery could be used. but Russia would have counter batteries ready to reply. Shoot fast and move fast and do it all again. But with Russian air cover even that is difficult.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Google search, Ukraine currently has 225 planes and the russian convoy is 230 tanks.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

How these MiG-29’s “appear” on Ukrainian soil is another matter.

It a tad weighty to hide up your jumper   

I suspect that this is also a major factor weighing against this plan. Unlike anti-tank weapons that can be put in a truck and driven across the border clandestinely, moving these jets across the border would require a lot more open movement across borders than I think NATO would be comfortable with. I think they'd have to bring Ukrainian pilots into Germany, then have them fly the planes directly across the border between Poland and Ukraine, which the Russians would see and might even try to intercept en route, which could create a new trigger point for a NATO/Russia direct confrontation that they want to avoid.

I think another issue might be that until now all countries providing weapons have been very specific in only giving weapons of a defensive nature (anti tank and anti aircraft weapons for infantry) which can only be used at short range and wouldn't pose a threat to Russia itself. Giving them Mig 29s would mean NATO is giving Ukraine weapons that could be used for offensive purposes against Russia itself, which would probably be seen as an escalation by the Russians.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

May be true, but Kamala will be able to sort it all out. she has a great track record of dealing with difficult issues.

She can make one of her coherent and eloquent speeches to reassure all concerned that the US is on top of things.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Google search, Ukraine currently has 225 planes and the russian convoy is 230 tanks.

Most but not all of Ukraine's combat planes were taken out in the first day of the war. They have few left and continue to use them and shoot down Russian fighters which is why Russia does not yet have total air superiority. Adding 20 more MiG-29's would greatly assist the Ukraine in the short term.

The Russian convoy has more than just tanks. It has ACP's recon vehicles and many soft top trucks, transports and refueling vehicles plus artillery both self propelled and towed and also missile carriers for SAM's and rocket launchers. Forty miles worth of vehicles is much more than just 230 tanks.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

She will need a High altitude skydiving before opening both shutes and full hip waders to navigate through that quagmire of shenanigans.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Germany and Poland are walking on thin ice

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

There's no such thing as central intelligence.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Now NATO looks weak and divided, and Poland cannot be sure Biden has its back

can be sure he does NOT have their back, evidenced by this sneaky trick of Poland would be blamed for giving the jets. Then Poland is close by enough to be attacked, unlike the US. NATO country, then everyone else including Biden has to jump in. With Kamala on site to incite any tensions with more stupid comments like before-

“Ukraine is a country in Europe. It exists next to another country called Russia. Russia is a bigger country. Russia is a powerful country. Russia decided to invade a smaller country called Ukraine so, basically, that’s wrong,"

Powerful and compelling commentary indeed.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Sending her, the one that handled the Mexican illegal immigrants as her top job?

if these planes are going to have the intention to deliberately attack Russian planes, then Russia a right to strike them preemptively while they are still on the ground. (America made Laos one of the most bombed countries in the world during the Vietnam War.)

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

if these planes are going to have the intention to deliberately attack Russian planes, then Russia a right to strike them preemptively while they are still on the ground.

Once on the ground in Ukraine you would be right. If they try it on NATO territory they get 30 nations fighting back for a preemptive strike against NATO.

(America made Laos one of the most bombed countries in the world during the Vietnam War.)

So that makes it perfectly fine for Russia to do that to Ukraine? What kind of warped sense of justice is that?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@Blacklabel

You've been very vocal all along about this not being the US's fight. Now you seem upset that Biden isn't green lighting the transfer of NATO jets to Ukraine. And, let's be perfectly clear about this... Poland was saying "We'll give the planes to the US, and the US can decide what to do with them (i.e. pass them on to Ukraine). So yes, "*give them to Ukraine, but you take the rap, and give us new F-16s in return".* Cute. You can't blame them for trying, I guess (??).

So, you don't want the US to get into a lethal conflict (and bring untold catastrophe onto other European countries, and possibly MacDonaldsland itself) ? Fine, I agree with you. For Biden, "between a rock and a hard place" barely begins to describe his position. But openly transferring fighters would be a red rag to an apparently deranged Kremlin bull. Best to tread VERY carefully at the moment. There are currently no good options, but surely you'd agree that making things much worse isn't a great idea.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Now you seem upset that Biden isn't green lighting the transfer of NATO jets to Ukraine. 

no, no, no.

Im "upset" that Biden tried to trick Poland into giving Ukraine the jets instead of himself.

He DID greenlight the jets, just wont do it himself. Weak leadership.

Poland didnt fall for his nonsense. How can Biden "greenlight" Poland to do something? but thats what he tried to do.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@Blacklabel

I confess that I missed the backstory on that. It seems that, in fact, you're correct on that point. God help us all. What a mess.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Ukraine needs these jets, they will make a difference, so just get your fingers out and get it sorted. Whining and being afraid to stand up to the demented dwarf in the Kremlin will just make things worse.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris could and may I suggest could be cornered on Military assistance.

U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris is not going to get away with a pat on the back for Poland and Rumania

Ukraine has a full on media managed campaign.

Yesterday, UK Parliament gave Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky's a standing ovation

The press defined it as a Churchill moment.

"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas.

U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris better have a full team, fully briefed, so this is about to turn into a poo storm

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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