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© Thomson Reuters 2023.ICC expected to launch war crimes cases against Russians over Ukraine
By Anthony Deutsch and Mike Collett-White AMSTERSDAM/NEAR KREMINNA, Ukraine©2024 GPlusMedia Inc.
61 Comments
Moonraker
Putin convicted and at the end of a rope would do. Better would be from a lamp post in Russia at the hands of his own citizens though.
UChosePoorly
Stay strong defenders of Ukraine! Bakhmut holds on for another day. Let's get the Ukrainians the tools they need to expel the invaders from their lands.
https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1635359501640691712
Nemo
There’s going to be a very long list of Russians too scared to step outside their borders for the rest of their lives.
Put Mini-me at the top of the list.
TokyoLiving
If the ICC does not condemn too the crimes of the Ukrainian regime against the Russian ethnic group in Donbass for the last 8 years, this is no less a pathetic and idealistic anti-Russian effort of the decadent and worn-out US-NATO circus..
Let's hope China can make great efforts to achieve peace negotiations, if it did it with Iran and Saudi Arabia, it can do it again, before the US and Europe get tired of squandering millions on weapons that the Ukrainian regime has not been able to use it well...
This is a war of attrition and believe me that Russia has much more capacity and resistance than the decadent west. Do not forget that Russia defeated Nazism in 1945 and they will do it again.
Cards fan
What crimes? Please be specific. This certainly seems to be you repeating Kremlin talking points. When you mention ethnic Russians in Ukraine, do you mean the separatist fighters Russia has been arming there for the past 9 years?
Lol historical inaccuracies aside, the Russian economy (and military) pales in comparison to the size and strength of the EU and US.
Antiquesaving
Well we know that is obvious. Where are the ICC trials over Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc...
Funny how certain western countries can do as they please and no ICC but cross the USA and suddenly "oh we need ICC trials
And for the go go go ICC pleas note
so again do as we say not as we do situation.
UChosePoorly
Do not forget that Russia defeated Nazism in 1945 and they will do it again.
The Soviets (of which the Ukrainians were a part) defeated those who invaded their lands, and they will do it again.
UChosePoorly
PTownsend
If they do investigate what might have happened in Donbas, they should be able to see that the Wagner Group was there then at the behest of the Kremlin instigating natiness, doing what they had done in Crimea, (as 'little green men') Syria, Mali and elsewhere.
PTownsend
correction to *07 post:
Wagner Group instigating nastiness
Nemo
Remember when all the military contractors with no insignia on their uniforms streamed over the border ,as in FROM Russia) to “declare independence”?
Me too. It was a Russian instigation from the start.
ICC would easily recognize it as such, much to the consternation of the “International” clique here.
UChosePoorly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_of_Oleksandr_Matsievskyi
Looks like he was a Ukrainian born in Moldova. What difference does that make? Did you see the video?
wallace
Oleksandr Matsievskyi was executed by Russian troops and the fact he was Moldovian changed nothing. He was fighting for Ukraine.
Antiquesaving
Not so fast.
Ukrainians cooperated with NAZI Germany the OUN UPA with others including the Ukrainian police participated in massacres of pole lithuanians Jews Roma ukrainians Russians alongside the Germans,
Babi Yar (Russian: Ба́бий Яр) or Babyn Yar (Ukrainian: Бабин Яр)
It was the Ukrainians that rounded up the Jews,
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
Was conducted by UPA.
Many more but to even say what is said by every other country including the USA Poland about these crimes would get you arrested in Ukraine, since 2015 it is a crime to say UPA was responsible for any ethnic cleansing despite at the time they themselves boasting that they did the massacres.
So under the present Ukrainian regime they have officially whitewashed their past participation in Ethnic cleaning, why because how best to repeat history? Well erase it so you can try again!
Cards fan
So did Russia. What's your point?
Yrral
Yemen pacified the Saudis,the US withdrew support,you figure
Antiquesaving
No Russian law forbidding calling these ethnic cleansing groups what they are, criminals, if Ukraine is not engaged in ethnic cleansing, if Ukraine doesn't have NAZI/fascists then why pass a law that makes it illegal to point out the crimes by OUN UPA and others?
Cards fan
No, Russia allied with the Nazis. They committed genocides against minorities too. Pathetic defense of Russian Imperialism is all this is.
Antiquesaving
Most here are intelligent enough not to believe Russian news, but are so ready to believe everything the USA UK and EU and their MSM tell them.
Yesterday here there was an article
i just read it and it was hilarious seeing even pro Ukraine sites and geolocated images showed not only has it not stalled but Russia moved further north West taking more land and another town as it as predicted by non "think tanks" that Russia wouldn't bypass eraes to take more territory before closing the gap on Bakhmut.
So western news and Zelensky say one thing then facts on the ground include Ukrainian government's own reports keep saying differently
Cards fan
Yet some people here claim they don't believe Russian news, and then turn right around and repost Russian state media.
Antiquesaving
Actually no! Stalin and his right hand man were Georgian, something so many don't like mentioning.
Millions died under him including Russians but his beloved Georgia didn't suffer like the rest
But imagine if Ukraine complained about the Georgian Soviet leader.
Just doesn't work.
As many ethic Russians died as Ukrainian under the forced starvation by Stalin but again doesn't fit the Ukrainian Nationalist narrative.
Cards fan
lol No. He was the leader of Russia. What absurd reasoning. Good grief.
stormcrow
Ukraine is one giant crime scene. Every time a Ukrainian citizen has been murdered, raped or tortured at the hands of these foreign invaders is a crime.
Toblerone
Ukrainians cooperated with NAZI Germany the OUN UPA with others including the Ukrainian police participated in massacres of pole lithuanians Jews Roma ukrainians Russians alongside the Germans,
Babi Yar (Russian: Ба́бий Яр) or Babyn Yar (Ukrainian: Бабин Яр)
It was the Ukrainians that rounded up the Jews,
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
Was conducted by UPA.
Inconvenient truths. Plenty more.
TaiwanIsNotChina
All you have to do is ask each defendant if they fired on a power plant. If so, put them away for life, if that is the best that can be done.
Antiquesaving
No he wasn't.
Good Grief.
No your facts.
Stalin was the leader of the society union which included
Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic lead by Stanisław Kosior ethnic Polish and a reason OUN UPA massacred Poles.
Mikhail Kalinin was the leader of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic at the time.
So again it was Stalin a Georgian and not Russia. It was the Soviet Union despite all the Ukrainian propaganda
TaiwanIsNotChina
Quite simply, no international observers, thanks to Putin, means this is a canard that will be placed in the waste basket where it belongs.
Going to be tough for China to be seen as a mediator if it starts sending weapons to a party. The West never said it was a mediator to counter your obvious response.
Going to be tough for Russia to defeat Nazism when it went full Nazi in about 2005.
Cards fan
Don't change the terms now. You referred to the USSR as Russia previously in this thread. You know good and well what was meant. Russia/the USSR allied with Nazi germany, and you know that. They also massacred Polish people, too. Don't forget Katyn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre And no, Stalin being Georgia doesn't mean Russia/USSR didn't commit the same genocides you claim Ukraine did, although now you acknowledge now that Ukraine wasn't actually a sovereign, independent country at the time.
Antiquesaving
A few Questions:
If the ICC is so important, if it is so great to do trials, if it is fair.
Why This?
it is such a great court set up by the USA but the USA will not be subject to it!!!!
How can people be so hypocritical by sitting around saying the ICC needs to be involved but not admit it was a puppet court set up by the USA that the USA will not even accept for itself.
Antiquesaving
Me! You are trying to say the USSR and Russia are the same, sorry but that is so factually incorrect I don't even know why it has to be pointed out.
Ukraine condemns what the Soviet Union did, passes a law declaring everything the Soviet Union did as being illegal but then gives an exemption to that law saying that the Soviet Union's transfer of Crimea from Russia to Ukraine was totally legal! talk about hypocrisy!
TaiwanIsNotChina
Ya know what? If I were a war crimes prosecutor, I would be placing that in the wastebasket as the people involved are DEAD. I would start with a leader ordering an illegal War of Aggression and annexing territory.
As I will remind you as many times as necessary, the US last annexed territory in 1898. Russia last did so in 2023. Russia can't quite seem to grasp that it doesn't get to steal s%#@ under any circumstances.
Antiquesaving
Your arguments on Ukraine sound like the Confederates supporters that said the civil war wasn't about slavery but state rights.
TaiwanIsNotChina
The US, much as you hate to acknowledge it, ain't the only one against you here. Maybe a better model should be the Nuremberg trials.
Cards fan
Right, and you're trying to claim Ukraine is the same as Soviet Ukraine when they're not.
Right, you can agree with some things they did and disagree with other things they did. That's not hypocrisy.
Cards fan
lol How so?
Alfie Noakes
One law for US and one law for the rest:
By Charlie Savage
March 8, 2023
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is blocking the Biden administration from sharing evidence with the International Criminal Court in The Hague gathered by American intelligence agencies about Russian atrocities in Ukraine, according to current and former officials briefed on the matter.
American military leaders oppose helping the court investigate Russians because they fear setting a precedent that might help pave the way for it to prosecute Americans. The rest of the administration, including intelligence agencies and the State and Justice Departments, favors giving the evidence to the court, the officials said. President Biden has yet to resolve the impasse, officials said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/us/politics/pentagon-war-crimes-hague.html
Antiquesaving
Let me remind you, war crimes are not linked only to annexing territory, they are about war crimes, the USA invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, and it wasn't in 1898.
As for long dead.
It was in 2015 these criminals (yes long dead) were elevated to what amounts to national heroes status by Ukraine.
So on one hand Ukraine says it treats ethnic minorities fairly then makes it illegal to point out or even mention the ethnic cleansing these groups did towards these ethnic minorities.
It would be like Japan declaring it illegal to mention Nanjing or the rest but then saying it respects ethnic minorities.
Think about that!
Cards fan
And one more for imperialist russia, because lord know tankies won't ever criticize the Russian invasion.
TaiwanIsNotChina
They should start with the ones annexing territory as that where the criminality all begins.
Afghanistan 100% legal and Iraq's borders haven't changed. Thank you for playing.
Boy, it would be a shame if that matters f all to charges that need to be made today.
Antiquesaving
Actually around 30 countries are supporting Ukraine and the sanctions less than 20% of the world population.
The rest are being held hostage by the USA and Europe.
But you still have addressed the elephant in the room:
Why is the ICC so important if the USA refuses to be subjected or signatory to it?
Antiquesaving
Why because just going in and killing like in Iraq doesn't count?
Nice how you omitted Iraq?
TaiwanIsNotChina
No, the rest are being held hostage by their non-democratic governments. Something like 70% of Indians think Russia is in the wrong.
I never said it was. Nuremberg is a better model as there are clear precedents and punishments established there that derive from Aggressive War (i.e. war for territory)
TaiwanIsNotChina
The US didn't brag about disabling power plants in winter (btw, we used munitions that didn't completely disable). Nor did we brag about abducting children or deny access by the Red Cross. Seems like the case should be easier against Russia.
Cards fan
More or less than the crimes the Russians invaders are committing in Ukraine?
TaiwanIsNotChina
I'll take that as an agreement that Fascist Russia needs to be prosecuted as well. BTW, you don't look so strong when you loose to No. 40 on the military expenditure list.
Jimizo
I see.
What are the intelligent people reading or watching to know what’s really going on here?
I know I keep asking this but our Putin apologists have a very bad habit of not answering and I don’t see how we can discuss this without shared ‘facts’.
Be brave. Post a few links.
elephant200
Nobody cares ICC at all, Russia is not Serbia!
EvilBuddha
the rest are being held hostage by their non-democratic governments.
LOL any country not agreeing with the West is non-democratic. If a country falls in line though it gets a free pass to trample upon all those human rights and democratic values that the West loves to preach about.
Something like 70% of Indians think Russia is in the wrong.
And where did you come up with this number? More than 70% Indians will not even be able to point out Ukraine on a map. But even more than that will be the number of Indians who favour maintaining ties with old friend Russia instead of becoming lackeys of the Western hypocrites.
1glenn
War crimes cases to be pursued? Good!
Cards fan
LOL I think it's pretty fair to say Russia is non-democratic.
Ah so Russia gets a pass. Love that commitment to human rights and democracy.
EvilBuddha
@Cards fan
Let me explain again since you didn't quite get it.
The OP pointed out that most of the world which is either neutral or supports Russia does it because they are being held hostage by their own non-democratic governments, which is both a fallacy and a sweeping statement of the highest order. I have no idea how you extrapolated it to mean that it was being insinuated that Russia is a democracy.
Moreover, the West are no champions of democracy themselves considering the number of dictatorships that you have supported and armed over the years.
Antiquesaving
No very sad when you go on and on about war crimes trials, freedom democracy, but the main creator of the ICC the main supplier or war weapons in the world, the main country to invade others install dictators, the USA will not sign up to the ICC.
You go on and on about Russia but why is the USA so afraid to join the ICC? Why does the USA and Europe think Russia should be answerable to the ICC but not the USA.
So the ICC is only good if it doesn't apply to the USA, and you have no problem with that!
Cards fan
What does any of that have to do with what Russia is doing in Ukraine? It's rather hypocritical to go on a rant about the US, and then turn a blind eye to what Russia is doing to Ukraine.
rainyday
Hey LOOK at THAT everybody! Over there, away from Russian war crimes! Its....America!
Just keep looking at that America thing, far away from Russian war crimes.
Cards fan
It should be pointed out that nowhere in the article was the US even mentioned, so I really have no idea why anyone would bring it up. These folks couldn't care less about war crimes.
Antiquesaving
No by design, who created the ICC?
Who was the main force behind the Creation of the ICC but then decided it would not apply to itself? The USA so by simple default the USA is the ICC
rainyday
Just to be clear: you don't know what you are talking about. The United States did not create the ICC, nor was it at all involved in its creation. The ICC was created when the Rome Statute came into force, which the United States had nothing to do with and has never been a signatory to.
If you want to argue that the US should be a member, fine, though an article about Russian war crimes is hardly the place to do so and you should at least get your facts straight before making an argument.
TaiwanIsNotChina
https://rsf.org/en/country/india
https://egfound.org/2022/06/modeling-democracy-democracys-promise/
70% agree that the US has responded to the war in Ukraine well. Facts are stubborn things my friend.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Nothing in there about how Russia isn't a happy warcriming nation. You're really having trouble with this defense.
TaiwanIsNotChina
You have shown zero evidence to the contrary sweeping statement I was responding to that only 20% of the world supports Ukraine. The 1.4 billion in China are most certainly being held captive by their non-democratic government.