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Muslims condemn Mumbai attacks, worry about image

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Oh Gawd, not more trouble between these two. Isn't it three wars already since partition? Bleeding heck, sort it out and be good neighbours, why kill and spread hate. This could cause a nuclear strike, it could be the most serious incident since WWII.

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Well, if there is indeed proof, and so far there has been no evidence aside from the captured man's claims, then both governments need to discuss how to deal with it. If the group is outlawed in Pakistan than that means they were acting as outlaws even in Pakistan's eyes, and not on behalf of the government. So, again, let's hope cool heads prevail here and not simply finger pointing and unwarranted bombast.

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"Among the foreigners killed in the coordinated shooting rampage in India’s financial capital were six Americans. The dead also included Germans, Canadians, Israelis and nationals from Britain, Italy, Japan, China, Thailand, Australia and Singapore."

Many of these poor people were tortured. The Indian doctors say they have never seen such depravity.

"Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

"Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing," a doctor said."

w.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture. htm

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I do not believe the government of Pakistan. The group may be illegal there but it is in word only. I challenge the government of Pakistan to prove India and me wrong and produce the members of this group for prosecution. Otherwise it is just paying lip service and perhaps this group is really being supported to do their countries bidding. Perhaps it is just a tiny part of the government of Pakistan thus giving the rest "plausible deniability".

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Guess these type 9/11 copycats bound to happen in nations,where the internal political strife like in kashmir and many other incidents involving militancy happen.

US,Pakistan are working together in solving militancy in Borders.

India also has militancy woes at its borders. The only solutions for these problems is for all parties to assist each other in struggle against militancy and their frustrations.

The problems also need much social economic improvement measures at borders to solve.

Just more police/army will not solve these woes,it needs everyone in India/Pakistan to make a correct effort in removing all frustrations among their citizens regardless of ethnicity,economic status and faiths.

These problems are not easy,need plenty of efforts by all administrations in India/Pakistan for many years.

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How about a title such as...Muslims condemn attacks, pledges to help victims, and vows not to repeat such senseless violence. NEVER heard of it really. Who cares about the image

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Muslims around the world, from the Middle East to communities in Britain and Austria, on Sunday condemned the Mumbai shooting rampage by suspected Islamic militants...

... and they in-turn were condemned as "not true muslims."

what's with the "suspected islamic militants"? how about "islamic terrorists", nothing suspect about them.

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I have close Muslim friends and feel a warmth there. I know there is an intelligent life force that keeps us all alive for a few short years that some may call Allah and some may call God. One by nature, it cannot be two.

But couple ignorance with deprivation, then cynical politicians and narrow-minded religious leaders will take the opportunity to tickle pre-conceptions and raw hatred, and force gullible youth to do unthinkable things. This is the poison, the illusion, where black can be described and actually 'seen' as white. The true answer is deep in our hearts, but few have the time or the patience to bother to find it.

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They just need a good PR firm to show the kinder, gentler Islam.

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ptolemy, you may be right.

williamsmith "We need to destroy Islam" = & opposite, mirror images = "We need to destroy the unbelievers." Two sides of the same curtain. Just like the bull charging the red cape. Mutual destruction, here we come???

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I think the muslim image has been tarnished much before this event.

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Talk is cheap.

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Whose talk is cheap?

I believe that Muslims around the world are horrified at what they have seen unfold in Mumbai. < :-)

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Khobar Towers, 9-11, Bali night club bombings, Madrid massacre, 7/7 bombings in London, Beslan elementary school massacre, Mumbai massacre.

And this from just the last 15 years of Islam's blood-soaked history.

The list gets longer and longer.

Talk is cheap.

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Unless many more Muslims take up arms against those who hate infidels, thus giving Islam its bad image, there is nothing they can say that is going to change minds. There needs to be action and realistically, it is only they who can clean this religion out. Perhaps they should install their laws against hate speech.

Actually, the last thing that should have been said was that they are concerned about their image. If you read into that, they are basically saying that all those that are not Muslim are incapable of seeing things differently.... as if only they have the power to do so.

"we need to destroy Islam" No, we need to destroy religion... Hopefully, more scientists will infiltrate all the backwards minded religions.

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Yeah, your talk is cheap. < :-)

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Before they even get to the terror that now defines their religion for many outside of it they need to address the sexism and intolerance within their ranks. The treatment of women and apostates would be a good place for Mohammedans to start. I, for one, would be much more inclined to take this as real effort towards joining the rest of humanity than I ever would statements and media blurbs from the (invariably male) heads of Islamic organizations.

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'Jihad' appears forty times in the Koran.

Islam is a religion which treats women like chattel, still allows for slavery and prescribes the death penalty for apostates and homosexuals. Does anyone with a brain in their head seriously believe that the word jihad, as Islam's apologists on the Left would have us believe, means 'interior struggle'?

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I believe that Muslims around the world are horrified at what they have seen unfold in Mumbai.

I doubt it.

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adaydream: people of all religions have killed each other for thousands of years. However, only Islam specifically calls for the killing of non-believers. Just read the Koran, it's all there.

This is why it's hard for Muslims to unequivocally condemn terrorism; certainly, they say killing innocent people is forbidden. However, no unbeliever (kuffar, infidel) is ever innocent in the teachings of the Koran.

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Religion is often an excuse for human beings to do terrible things to each other. Hopefully someday we will evolve beyond the need to adhere to such superstitions.

As for Inslam and Muslims. The bottom line is that this is more than a PR problem. They need to start to push back within their own communities against fundamentalists. And they need religious leaders to speak out against such extreme beliefs. It is largely their own responsibility to reverse the growing dominance of fundamentalism. Just like it is the Christian world's responsility to bring their own collection of fundamentalist nut cases into line.

If you don't like the PR Islam is getting, and I believe it is unfair to the vast majority of Muslims world wide, you much start to work to counter the bad PR with good PR and with resistance to the spread of fundamentalism.

At least until we grow up enough to throw of the yoke of religion once and for all.

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Talk is cheap.

That was exactly my reaction when I read William Kristol's column in which he complains of the inability of liberals to recognize the threat posed by jihadis. He emphasizes, "In nations like India (and the United States), governments will have to call on the patriotism of citizens to fight the terrorists."

Never mind he himself has never done anything to fight terrorists (except to repeatedly call on others to shoulder the burden). Nor has any sacrifice been asked of the American people by their government. Though one could be; accept a gas tax to fund research on alternative energy to wean us off our dependence on fossil fuels.

While the Saudis denounced the attacks, they have also funded groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba. So their denunciation rings a tad hollow. Yet when the West is dependent on your oil, you can get away with it.

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I agreed with tkoind2.. as a person who has many muslim friends, I found that Islam is not the one like as those terrorists reflected.. Even in Islam, they are promoting the practice to be moderate.. any action in which done exegerately will be ended up to be a bad one.. even it is a good thing.. my point is, we should not just blame all Muslims because of other people bad's actions, we should first know who are those people first before criticizing... isn't it rite?

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Mikihouse: "Muslims condemn attacks, pledges to help victims, and vows not to repeat such senseless violence"

You've got the first two parts all right, but then the last part, 'and vow not to repeat such senseless violence', is all wrong because the people who are expressing their condemnation had absolutely nothing to do with what happened here.

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TooFarGone: "Talk is cheap."

No kidding... and here you are while you cheer on a war you would never yourself EVER set foot in! As to the article at hand, two days ago you asked me to name a single Mohammadan cleric or other Muslims who condemned the attack; now you have them worldwide doing so and what's your answer? 'talk is cheap'.

"'Jihad' appears forty times in the Koran."

Helter_Skelter: You too, like TooFarGone, are always coming on here saying, "Where are the Muslims or ____ who condemn this attack?", and like him now can only throw out sour grapes now that you've got Muslims condemning the attack, saying things like "I doubt it" (when they express horror at what's been done).

It really is funny to watch you guys back track and try to undermine the condemnations you try to base all your rational for hating an entire religion on. Anyway, keep trying, boys. I'm sure someone is listening to your rabble and hate-infused speech. Fortunately, it's no one with any power to do anything with it.

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So, the Muslim groups are ashamed of what happened in India, hey? That's so nice of them. What about the countless other Muslim extremist's terrorist attacks all over the world? Are they justified?

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So, the Muslim groups are ashamed of what happened in India, hey? That's so nice of them. What about the countless other Muslim extremist's terrorist attacks all over the world? Are they justified?

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Over the past two years I've studied traditional creative culture from mostly Muslim regions. And I can say with absolute certainty that the core of Islam is no more radical or insane that the core of Christianity. They are, afterall, born from the same roots.

Islam is as diverse as Christianity in that there are many different subsects with very different views and interpretations. To lump them all together is like lumping Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons and Methodists together. So why apply such bad reasoning to Islam?

Get past the propaganda and see that radical Jihadists represent Islam as much as Jim Jones represents Christianity.

Now the solution is two fold. 1. Muslims world wide need to push back on fundamentalism. 2. Christians and Secular people need to help make this happen. 3. Solutions to the roots of terror need to be found. Most of those rest with addressing poverty and empowerment. The others rest with political decision making that avoids past mistakes that may have created a lot of the hatred we see today.

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Muslims worry about image? This might be the question asked by a young moderate muslim. The rest of them - they have accepted that image a long time ago.

Islam is a 'by hook or by crook' religion and by a certain degree is counter to democracy. The means always justifies the end - and that includes violence or murder unfortunately.

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The solution is one fold. It is calling it like it really is and all the P.C correctness or looking for some 'root cause' is a waste of time as the root cause has been staring humanity in the face ever since we came down from the trees.

Terrorists are liars and they lie to themselves.

Strip away their greatest lie and then they become powerless.

Donald Hamiliton made a speech in 2005 I posted the ending excerpts. Google "Lies Terrorists Tell" and you will find the full speech. I think it should be required reading in every classroom on the planet. This is whow you really combat this scourge. You see it for what it really is pure evil.

The greatest lie, which all terrorists tell the world and themselves, is that some political outcome is more important than recognizing and honoring the humanity of each and every person.

I urge you to recognize the lies terrorists tell. For when you recognize their lies, when you refute them, you have begun to disarm the terrorists. You have begun to disarm them because they need their lies more than they need their bullets or guns or bombs.

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for those Muslims who are worried about the image, how about creating your own new group?

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smith

now can only throw out sour grapes now that you've got Muslims condemning the attack

Well, I still haven't quite gotten over the world-wide celebrations by Muslims after the 911 attacks (no doubt you were celebrating along with them). So any condemnations here gives me little solace. It's actions, not words, that impress me.

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smitty, I think you are coming down on people a bit too hard. We are talking about a religion that advocated killing and separation, two things I believe you would be against.

Of course we all know Muslims here and there and things are cool. I'd even throw down for a few of them should any harm come to them. But for the most part, they have put themselves on a place above all and we can not hve that in this day and age. I am sure you agree.

I think what would convince many is to see, witness more Muslim actually cleaning out their religion like we have seen recently.

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' In Britain, home to nearly two million Muslims, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, Inayat Bunglawala, said that “a handful of terrorists like this bring the entire faith into disrepute.” '

I knew I had seen that name before:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007775.php

"In January 1993, Mr Bunglawala wrote a letter to Private Eye, the satirical magazine, in which he called the blind Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman "courageous" - just a month before he bombed the World Trade Center in New York. After Rahman's arrest in July that year, Mr Bunglawala said that it was probably only because of his "calling on Muslims to fulfil their duty to Allah and to fight against oppression and oppressors everywhere".

[...]

Five months before 9/11, Mr Bunglawala also circulated writings of Osama bin Laden, who he regarded as a "freedom fighter", to hundreds of Muslims in Britain...."

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freedom of religion should be freedom from religion.

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worry about image

Year-on-year figurs for decapitations are down 30%.

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I heard from the news that all these terrorists are from Pakistan and India is now at "war level" as people 's anger is justifiably sky high. Instead of keep denying, Pakistan must do something to ease the situation: round up those terrorist groups, make the parents of these 10 terrorists to apology, offer compensations to India...talk is cheap, lip service won't work this time.

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Christianity, another popular movement, had its dark ages, and now it's Islam, or rather its fringes, that is trying to get the world into its derailed folds. One difference is that today the freaks have automatic weapons and frightening explosives some are happy to supply. The 'some' being those who don't give a hoot about human lives, who have no moral values or anything really to admire. All they are capable of is to destroy. Building is an unknown term. The rules of Satan himself. What it is all about I still cannot comprehend. Who is going to gain what if the whole world's population embraces Islam, the religion that condones murder of peace loving people? The Koran, if this is the manifest these evil terrorist killers justify their actions on, needs to be rewritten. Influential mullahs in the Islam world need to speak out - and if they don't this will only strengthen the belief that they support the superiority of a movement which revokes images of a satanic, violent regime.

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Redfaced: revokes should be invokes, of course. I apologize.

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sailwind: "I urge you to recognize the lies terrorists tell. For when you recognize their lies, when you refute them, you have begun to disarm the terrorists. You have begun to disarm them because they need their lies more than they need their bullets or guns or bombs."

I agree... so long as you include ALL terrorists, and that this isn't some attempt to say that 'we are right and they are wrong (we never tell lies! only THEY do!)' kind of crap that can easily be turned in on itself. I believe the root is good, though.

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Hetler: "Well, I still haven't quite gotten over the world-wide celebrations by Muslims after the 911 attacks (no doubt you were celebrating along with them). So any condemnations here gives me little solace. It's actions, not words, that impress me."

First off, if you actually had any credibility as a poster I would find it slightly offensive that you think I would celebrate ANY terrorist attack, let alone 9/11. I have flat out on every single thread with any terrorist attacks condemned the terrorists who have done so, and any one who supports them. What I HAVEN'T done is what YOU do; condemn 1.4 billion people on the planet for the acts of less than 0.0001% or less. What's more, in the past, and even a few days ago, your 'proof' that Muslims are terrorists was that 'no Muslims were voicing condemnation', and when they have you can only say actions are louder than words. Well, when you get the actions AS WELL AS the words that you were begging for, I'm going to throw it in your face again. Of course, by then you'll have another pathetic excuse down to try and spread hate.

If you think I was for 9/11... show me where I have once said that. Show me where I once supported the terrorists who committed this act, or the people who rioted against each other in Nigeria the other day. I know you can't, but go ahead and try to find more 'proof'. Haha.

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Sailwind,

I read that piece. It offers absolutely no course of action. Wonders never cease, neither does William Kristol's piece today in the NYT's entitled "The True Face of Jihad." The closest he comes to proposing a specific response is "we may have to do something about Pakistan." Well what exactly?

The Rights's response is "military action" yet participation is strictly "volunteer." Rudyard Kipling, by contrast, understood in 1914 that was unlikely to be sufficient in the face of a determined adversary:

For all we have and are,

For all our children's fate,

Stand up and take the war.

The Hun is at the gate!

In the absence of a specific course of action the Right (reflected in the piece you cite) is reduced to creating "straw men" to tear down. Suggest a specific course of action or give it a rest. I'm not proposing any standard I haven't met myself.

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Suggest a specific course of action or give it a rest.

Call for what they are disgusting human beings.......Would be a good start Betz.

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sailwind: "Call for what they are disgusting human beings.......Would be a good start Betz."

I believe that's what this article's all about, sailwind. They are disgusting human beings. Betzee and everyone on here has said it time and again. That was done long ago, my friend. Betzee's point was that beyond that, the article offers nothing, and I agree.

A LOT of people are looking into this and are willing to provide support to India to find out more about who's behind this, and that's excellent. India definitely needs to beef up it's security as well, but that'll be a long time coming despite some immediate changes in appearance only. Until it's discovered who is truly at fault for this, not much more can be done except to clean up and help out as much as possible for those hurting and grieving, etc.

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This Indian blogger offers a somewhat different perspective (along with a course of action):

The problem with the discourse being exclusively focused on the macro policies, say GWOT, (in addition to the horrible acronyms that is) is that it indeed makes us, the common people, feel powerless, helpless, dependent. In addition, what any elected government in any open society can do will always have its limits....

He goes on to discuss the roots of terror, not in terms of socio-economic deprivation but rather psychological manipulation. And he makes some astute observations about the way a youth is recruited to carry out such acts of unfathomable barbarity. It's not that he jumps of bed one morning and settles on a plan of mass murder. Rather:

He does not have any life experience. He does not have any perspective. He has seen very little of the world, of life. Enlisting him is exceptionally easy for any demagogue. Pretend he is respected, he is important, that he is part of something important, part of something historic. Promise him future salvation.

After he gets enlisted, almost always he is lost to us. He becomes the other. Most of the time there is no compromise. We, our agencies, our governments have to kill him. To pretend otherwise would be to lie too.

He is our target too. With our thoughts, our art, our work, being us, reaching out to him, we have to enlist him in our jihad - our jihad for critical thinking...

We have to teach him that philosophies can be life affirming or death cultish. That nothing can remain unquestioned as any word of god.

He's certainly right about how the mind atrophies in an intellectual and cultural wasteland. In Saudi Arabia, there is no art, music or cinema; the only officially sanctioned public leisure activity is shopping. Someone I know who spent time there reported he once offered a Saudi a book. Without even inquiring what the title was he responded, "No thanks, I already have one."

Given it's the Saudis who are underwriting madrassah schools in place like Pakistan and can claim the majority of the 9/11 hijackers as their own, they should we the focus of our efforts to affect change in the Muslim world. And they would be, I'm sure, were we not dependent on their oil.

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Muslim condemn Mumbai attacks, Reporters across the Middle East and Europe contributed to this report. message to AP: 'do not worry, India is not Israel and does not believe in revenge and shall wait till Obama makes his policy clear after 20th Jan., 2009

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We have to teach him that philosophies can be life affirming or death cultish. That nothing can remain unquestioned as any word of god.

Kamikazi Pilots? Not much changes does it Betz.

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Kamikazi Pilots? Not much changes does it Betz.

Are they still around, Sailwind?

Call for what they are disgusting human beings

How does that accomplish anything? "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me."

Sadly, it's not just the Muslim world which is in need of a jihad for critical thinking.....

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Sadly, it's not just the Muslim world which is in need of a jihad for critical thinking.....

Or for that matter youself

Neither God nor man creates a terrorist. Terrorists create terrorism. They create terrorism by choosing terror as the means to advance their political goals. The terrorist has decided that the shortest path to his political goal is terrorism. He has passed over democratic elections, passive resistance, and armed struggle against others in arms. He has chosen to target the defenseless and the innocent. And then he encourages us to believe that his terrorism has a “root cause.” Those born to comfortable circumstances are particularly susceptible to this lie. That is why the “root cause” lie enjoys such currency amongst well-to-do Western intellectuals.

Think about that.

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It's so easy to blame the religion for the actions of just a few.

I agree that these particular terrorists were horrible, but I sure don't blame the Islamic religion.

Muslims must be vigilant to halt the bad eggs in their religion, but to blame Muslims is ignorant. < :-)

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Given Pakistan's inability to control parts of its own country it wouldn't be too surprising to learn that part of the government had a hand in it. But this act doesn't seem like something that would get the go-ahead from anyone high up.

Pakistan and India's future depend on each other. They can't solve their terrorism problem unless they work together to uproot extremism in both countries. And I'm guessing one can't entirely do it without the other.

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Muslims worrying about their image...let's take a look at this picture...muslims made women wear burkahs, and abused their women physically, and by refusing them a right to education. Muslims bombed almost anywhere you can think of in the news for the past 10 years. Muslims fathered terrorism in the early 1960's, muslims condemn acts of terror, but do nothing to prevent it, muslims perform acts of terror in the Philippines, Bali, India, United States, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, England, Germany, France, and the list goes on...Now tell me again why they worry about their image?

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Why does Islam get a free ride with Madrasah that preach hate? They should be shut down with extreme predjudice. Enough of this global blood bath that makes me nervous and suspicious of every organized muslim group in my part of the world as well.

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sharky1,

because its Un-Islamic to do all of the above, except treating woman as second class citizens and performing a jihad. wait...why are they worried again?

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Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad referred to the attacks as terrorism

but he did not say there was a problem with it.

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sharky: "Muslims bombed almost anywhere you can think of in the news for the past 10 years."

Actually, with a comment like that, you should be worried about YOUR image.

"muslims condemn acts of terror, but do nothing to prevent it,"

Sounds like a whole lot of people on this board, yourself included. Said people on this board also like to support a whole lot of things, but do nothing about such things themselves, aside from the verbal support (and Helter believes that 'words mean nothing'). So what's your point?

"muslims perform acts of terror in the Philippines, Bali, India, United States, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Spain, England, Germany, France, and the list goes on..."

Let me correct you on a fundamental point here. MUSLIMS in general did nothing of the sort. SOME Muslims did, just like people of other nationalities/religions also bombed all sorts of countries along with some you've mentioned here. The funny (by that I mean odd) part is that both sides always say it was in defense/retaliation, and was just; both are wrong, and both push the other to do more. It's a lot like the ignorance of people who think ALL Muslims are to blame for the acts of so very, very, very few of them.

Finally... here's a question for all those Muslim-haters out there who want the 'problem of Islam' stopped for good (ie. who believe all Muslims are terrorists, etc.); what do you propose? What's your Final Solution going to be?

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Betzee (from article): He does not have any life experience. He does not have any perspective. He has seen very little of the world, of life. Enlisting him is exceptionally easy for any demagogue. Pretend he is respected, he is important, that he is part of something important, part of something historic. Promise him future salvation.

I've been saying similar things for quite some time. A terrorist is someone who has been brainwashed. They aren't logical thinkers. Some here seem to think that an air strike creates them overnight, but you don't just become a terrorist overnight. You're trained to become one and they specifically target people who will be more open to their teachings.

Palestinian suicide bombers practically follow a demographic pattern as if 15-24 year old males were the ones being harmed by the Israelis exclusively. No one thought to ask why no one else seemed to be willing to blow themselves up especially if they were living under the same living conditions as the others in Palestine. It seemed pretty obvious that the terrorist organizations were choosing the bomber, not the other way around.

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smithy,

you have no right to ask that question because if you did, you would have an answer yourself but you do not.

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...and by the way, if Pakistan did have a hand in this, is it any different than the routine bombings in Lebanon and Israel that are done by Iran and Syria?

Why the sudden outcry?

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Take the terrorists actions in Iraq by the United States these last 5 years. The Muslims continue to take lessons from the world and use them against others.

I agree with an mentioned above post that the terrorists take young ignorant boys and transform them into weapons. < :-)

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It's a lot like the ignorance of people who think ALL Muslims are to blame

Smith, get off your high horse. Your "Plan B" in overdrive is growing tiresome. And let's face it, you're the first and the loudest to condemn the US for any transgression whether it's been proven or not so you're just not the best person to be giving us this lecture. If the topic had been about a US soldier killing an innocent you'd have the electric chair ready and waiting for all service members by the time you finished your post. I agree that people should be reasonable and get all the facts before forming an opinion, but it's just a complete and utter joke to hear you suddenly find reason when we're talking about a terrorist. You don't have the kind of credibility required to pull off a speech like that so just give it up.

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"_____ referred to the attacks as terrorism, but added that the violence is rooted in 'unjust policies'"

You could pretty much choose to insert the President of Iran or any radical liberal in the blank above. Sometimes it's hard to tell one from the other.

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"I agree that people should be reasonable and get all the facts before forming an opinion, but it's just a complete and utter joke to hear you suddenly find reason when we're talking about a terrorist."

I 'find reason' when I'm commenting on people blaming a religion on the whole for the acts of a few. I have never NOT blamed the terrorists here at all... not once! As to the whole 'be reasonable and get the facts straight' that's in direct comment on finding out who is BEHIND the planning and execution of the attack, beside the obvious people who carried it out, all of whom but one are corpses who won't answer questions very well.

It seems like you're might upset about something here, and trying to take it out on me for being completely rational about not attacking and condemning all Muslims for the acts of these terrorists. But go ahead, SuperLib... show me where I give these terrorists the thumbs up, and where I 'find reason when we are talking about a terrorist'. Don't be surprised that I won't hold my breath for a rational response or an answer to my query.

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romulus: "you have no right to ask that question because if you did, you would have an answer yourself but you do not."

That's part of my point -- there is absolutely no rationale at all for people who think all of Islam is to blame for this, and in particular the few on here who have openly called for an end to the Muslim way of life (and even some have called for the deaths of 1.4 billion people!), and so you're damn straight there's no answer... that's why I asked it; to point out how stupid anyone who actually thinks they should eliminate an entire religion and belief system (as well as some who think the people to boot!). Hence, my allusion to a certain other people when some unwise people tried to do the same.

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Smithy,

there is absolutely no rationale at all for people who think all of Islam is to blame for this

but there is. extreme Islam is born of Islam. where else did it come from?

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Muslim on going conflicts.

AFGHANISTAN ALGERIA The Caucasus and Russia EYGPT INDONESIA INDIA/PAKISTAN IRAQ ISRAEL IRAN KOSOVO NIGERIA SUDAN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PHILIPPINES

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AFGHANISTAN ALGERIA The Caucasus and Russia EYGPT INDONESIA INDIA/PAKISTAN IRAQ ISRAEL IRAN KOSOVO NIGERIA SUDAN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PHILIPPINES

are you sure these are not Hindu, Christian and Jewish conflicts?

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In the words of Christopher Hitchens, "You can depend on religion to bomb each others churches, kill in the name of a loving god, and tell the most outrageous stories even a drunk could never invent."

Why kill in the name of God? Honestly,if God is so powerful and all knowing let God do it for his/her self. Obviously because humans created God in their image and all Holy Books are written by us human mammals. Why don't the Imams strap the bombs onto themselves and do the suicide bombing? Because they know Allah, God, Mohammed is all hogwash, thats why. Go get the 72 virgins yourself Imam rather than get some rube from the desert. Its all fiction and fairy tales, thats why. You can bet the Mods will kill this remark.

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This is not good vs evil, its a clash of ideals like all wars before it. We who vie for the west are just as mystified and fanatic about our beliefs as Islamics. Its just that we apply our armchair idealism by voting and by paying taxes and supporting our professional armies. What choice do impoverished Islamics have but to react the way they do? they are fighting a poor mans war against impossible odds. There are countries like Iran who are trying to level the playing field by obtaining the Atom Bomb. The thing is that it is all a bunch of BS. Just a simple clash of ideals and a mutual unwillingness to make any type of concession.

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Good Quote Ptolemy. And yes this is good against evil. Someone will have to counteract this evil that is brewing. It certainly won't be the good muslims. It'll come down to a big clash in the future and religion will be the root cause. The evil root cause.

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It's good that moderate muslims are condemning these acts of cowardice against civilians. I find that all too often the moderate voices are missing from Islam. That said religeon is still the root of all evil. You can't reason with someone who thinks they are going to heaven if they're martyred. I don't blame Islam specifically, but all religeon as it encourages people to see themselves as different or special from people who don't believe the way they do. The fundie Jews and Christians are just as bad they just haven't picked up their guns lately.

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it's a lot easier to blame all of Islam because most of us aren't aware of any dividing lines to Islam. Yeah, we've got the Saudis and Wahabism. They seem to be fairly repressive in their teachings. I'm not sure that there is any difference between the Sunni and the Shia that a non-Muslim would notice but the two groups seem to be happy to kill over that difference too. But there don't seems to be all the flavors of Islam that you have in Christianity or Judaism. And whatever diffenent Isalmic groups there are they all seem to endorse violence as a means to furthering their goals.

There have been plenty of extremeists in Islam who want to "put the west in it's place" for being a modern society while they preach that women are chattel, just to list one dispicable aspect of those teachings. The list could go on quite a while. There might be some Christians and Jews who are equally radical but, in western society, those views are not translated into actions as the majority and the government won't allow it.

So yeah, it's possible to lump Islam into one big pot. Until there is some credible and consistent Isalmic voice preaching reason and tolerance I will continue to do so.

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I am glad to hear the sincere condemnation from Muslims around the world. I remember when Muslims around the world also condemned the bombing of the World Trade Center on 09.11.2001. There are so many good Muslims around the world as there are with all religions and non-believers alike. I am so thankful that romulus3 recognizes an extremist who want to demonize Muslims. It is good to speak out against bigots in one's own beliefs. That is exactly what these good Muslims have done but some people are never satisfied.

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Every religion has their radicals.

But I don't think that most religions, even Islam, wants to kill all non-believers. I believe that the good and up-rightous of Muslims are horrified because these 10 terrorist make their religion the religion of death in the minds and hearts of those who see this as an act by "Muslims" and not by terrorist within the religion. < :-)

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romulus3

What choice do impoverished Islamics have but to react the way they do?

First of all, the most prominent Islamic terrorist, Osama Bin Laden, comes from huge wealth and is/was a multimillionaire. And there are millions of people in the world who live in squalor and oppression, yet don't strap on explosives and deliberately murder innocent women and children. So this idea that Islamic terrorism is somehow born out of poverty or oppression is nonsense. Islamic terrorism is about ideology and the teachings of the Koran.

The love affair of the Left with Islam, or any enemy of America and Christianity for that matter, is certainly evident in some of the above posts. The alliance continues.

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Just because I believe Muslims who say they condemn the terrorist attacks on Mumbai does not make me any less patriotic than someone who hates and thinly disguises it. I love my country. I am honest about its mistakes. I don't have to live vicariously through the victories of my nation. I know plenty of Muslims; they are great and do not derive hatred from the Qu'ran. The old testament in the bible equally promotes hatred and violence. I do not believe Jews hate because of the old text that has violent messages. I do not believe the Christians hate because their bible has violent messages. I do not believe the Muslims hate because the Qu'ran has violent messages. The left does not align itself with Islam but they do tolerate and accept people who are different. Everyone I know on this thread from the right, left and middle all condemn terrorism. Some people use an opportunity like the tragedy in Mumbai to spread their hatred of those who are different then themselves.

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"Muslims... worry about image". Good! Its about time. Maybe they will do some house cleaning.

As far as that goes, anyone who screams `Allahu Akbar’ (God is Great) and hates ANYONE is sick and ignorant. If this is what it means to believe in their god, time for "believers" to believe in something else.

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Romulus: "but there is. extreme Islam is born of Islam. where else did it come from?"

It came from radicals who twisted the teachings. Taking the murders of a few nuts, therefore, and saying it's because of Islam is like saying the highschool in Columbine is directly responsible for the boys shooting rampage. You can twist it to make it look like parts of the system and school were indirectly to blame, but no way can you blame all the admin., teachers, and other students as well as the building structure itself.

Helter: "And there are millions of people in the world who live in squalor and oppression, yet don't strap on explosives and deliberately murder innocent women and children. So this idea that Islamic terrorism is somehow born out of poverty or oppression is nonsense. Islamic terrorism is about ideology and the teachings of the Koran."

I KIND of agree with you there; it's like saying ALL troops who joined the battle in Iraq were uneducated, poor kids who hung out at shopping malls and were duped into recruiting by the signs of promise, pride, having meaning, earning money for themselves and family, etc. A whole lot were, but not all.

"The love affair of the Left with Islam, or any enemy of America and Christianity for that matter, is certainly evident in some of the above posts. The alliance continues."

Not hating something is not the same as loving it, my friend. The sooner you get that through your head, the sooner you'll actually have a hand in reducing the causes of terrorism, instead of adding to them. I notice you still haven't answered my question on what your solutions are for 'Islam'. No surprise there.

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I have muslim friends too. I'm no extremist but do have extreme prejudice when it comes to idiots that interpret a holy books teaching into modern day killing spees. I see these terrorists as the idiots they are. Young, dumb and full of C4 willing to shoot, blow up and torture people because they are brainwashed by 'religious leaders' who for unknown reasons are not incarcerated and silenced in their hate preaching. This double standard for hate filled 'religious leaders' has to be put to a stop sometime soon. And it's just unfortunate that I can't use those terrorists that go into an abortion clinic with the C4 death belt to get their point across by taking out a lot of people in one go. Poverty my a$$ is the cause of terrorism. Pol Pot was no poor fellow. He was university educated. See some of these high horse 'educated' fellows can cause some of the higher degrees of grief for the world. So this time we are seeing idiotic 'muslim' youth even in countries such as Britian, wanting to do some harm to people. Put them in their place before they put us 6 feet under.

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smithinjapan with a common error that the Left's apologists for Islamo-fascism make:

"It came from radicals who twisted the teachings."

Actually, it comes from radicals who, in the true sense of the word 'radical',seek to force a return to the original aim of their movement, to the 7th century, to the killing that Islam's illiterate brigand and founder himself engaged in.

It's all in their holy book.

Have you read it?

I am positive you haven't.

You don't know what you write about.

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" In Islamic extremist Web forums, some praised the Mumbai attacks "

So why does this article get the headline "muslims condemn the attack"? Of it is the fundamentalists who do this, and the fundamentalists who we should worry about. Not the passive followers.

This is an islamic problem, not a Buddhist or Catholic problem. And islam has to held accountable for solving it. That won´t happen as long as we insist in blanking islam out of islamic fundamentalism.

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WilliB: "So why does this article get the headline "muslims condemn the attack"? Of it is the fundamentalists who do this, and the fundamentalists who we should worry about. Not the passive followers."

The article is here to show people like you who won't pipe down your calls for, "So where are the Muslims who condemn this attack, huh?!?" that there are indeed Muslims who care and who are horrified by what happened. If this article weren't posted you guys would be on here STILL posting and demanding to see 'a single Muslim cleric who condemns the attacks'.

These are not your words directly, but the same tone as when you demanded I show you a group of terrorists that were not Islamic, and I gave you 10 off the top of my head (to which you disappeared, of course).

"This is an islamic problem, not a Buddhist or Catholic problem. And islam has to held accountable for solving it. "

If it's an 'Islamic problem' ONLY then it has nothing to do with you at all, now does it, and you can simply stop posting and having opinions on the matter. Fortunately, as a human being in the world in which terrorism exists, the problem of terrorists is a problem for us all, and not limited to an entire belief system of which there terrorists were not even a miniscule fraction.

TooLongGone: "It's all in their holy book. Have you read it? I am positive you haven't. You don't know what you write about."

Hahaha! This coming from a guy who cries out for proof that 'a single Mohammedan cleric' condemns the attacks, and when he gets proof of world-wide condemnation by Muslims simply grumbles and says, "Oh, well... shucks... them's just words! Not actions!"

Evidently I know a whole lot more both of what I write and what others write than you do. That's been proven EVERY single thread in the past week and you simply can't come back and answer it, changing the target of your attacks until you get shot down again.

Don't tell me I have to prove it further by also educating you as to what 'radical' means, and by implication how you can apply it to pretty much any group good or bad that wants great political/social change and 'the return to the aims of the movement', for you have no idea what the 'original' aims of the movement were. I profess I have not read the ENTIRE Koran, but I've read enough of an English version of it to know that these radicals have indeed twisted the teachings into their own political and social agenda, and that that does not apply at all to the entire Muslim world any more than I can take passages from the bible (particularly the old testament) and say that all Christians are freaks for wanting to 'cleanse the world of heathens, starting with their neighbours', 'by the sword' and all that crap. Instead, I correctly choose to condemn those who take such crap and use it to murder others, as they have in the past on a scale of millions and millions.

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smithinjapan:

" here are indeed Muslims who care and who are horrified by what happened. "

Sure there are. Never said otherwise. But they are not very strict muslims, because they disregard the koranic obligation to fight the unbelievers.

And I don´t see how they stop the islamic fundamentalists. To the contrary, by blanking out islam as the cause of islamic terrorism they help them.

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muslims worry about image

bit late in the day for that some might say

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Why kill in the name of God? Honestly,if God is so powerful and all knowing let God do it for his/her self.

God appreciates a little initiative.

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smith

Not hating something is not the same as loving it

Devoting a good part of your life to defending Islam on an international forum is more than just "not hating something", my friend.

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Devoting a good part of your life to defending Islam on an international forum is more than just "not hating something", my friend." smitty, he's got you on that one.. almost like kicking sand in your face. HS, you play hard man.

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smithinjapan:"Hahaha! This coming from a guy who cries out for proof that 'a single Mohammedan cleric' condemns the attacks, and when he gets proof of world-wide condemnation by Muslims simply grumbles and says, "Oh, well... shucks... them's just words! Not actions!"

Worldwide condemnation, smith??

Not from Muslim clerics.

Do try and read more carefully.

And I repeat: Talk is cheap.

Where are the fatwas? Hundreds dead. Tortured. Women and children among them.

And yet the killers who survived the massacre are still safer than Salman Rushdie.

So you keep banging away, smith.

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skipthesong: "smitty, he's got you on that one.. almost like kicking sand in your face. HS, you play hard man."

Ummm... nope. If anything he's only proven his complete lack of credibility. I've posed specific questions to him three or four times now and he refuses to answer, simply because he cannot. So what does he say instead? Excuses like 'I don't have time to come on here and check' (except that he clearly does, or he wouldn't have time to write an answer to a question that he wouldn't have time to read!). All he can do is attempt to belittle my character because he cannot answer questions put forward to him. Fortunately, as I said, he lacks credibility, and so his posts do nothing at all but belittle himself. Hence, rather than 'kicking sand' in my eyes, he simply tripped in the sandbox and landed face first. He only 'plays hard' if playing hard involves baseless comments and not answer questions/comments that back up proofs counter to what he wants to hear. Finally, again, he only got me if what he said was true, and it was not.

Helter_Skelter: "Devoting a good part of your life to defending Islam on an international forum is more than just "not hating something", my friend."

Nope, sorry. I reiterate, defending something is not at all the same as loving it. Having a lot to comment on only means that there are a lot of ignorant people who think it's okay to bring about the end of an entire 1.4 billion people. Oh, and you're attempt at a dig with the 'Devoting a good part (of your life)...' was a nice attempt to avoid a couple of questions you can't answer, but that doesn't mean you can shirk your responsibility of doing. Again, though, you'll forgive me when I don't hold my breath.

TooFarGone: "And I repeat: Talk is cheap"

So stop talking and do something about it! Wow, for all the 'talk is cheap' crap you guys post in response to getting something you've been begging for, you guys sure love to come on here and be hypocrites. Go on out and join the war on terror! Pick up a gun and do what you want to do -- 'fight terror' (ie. make Islam 'disappear'). And on that note, I notice you too haven't answered my question as to what you want done with Islam since you claim it's the source of all the world's problems, and terrorism (despite me showing you otherwise with at least 10 examples two days ago). And are you going to go out and do it yourself or just sit here and 'talk' about it?

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Someone must be reading this thread! Mumbai's Muslims deny the attackers a Muslim burial. "They are not Muslims..."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2008/12/2008123440767485.html

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nandakandamanda: Shhh!!! The people on here who want all the Muslims dead have already been proven wrong disappointed by Muslims actually expressing their anger and condemnation of the attack, they don't want to be disappointed by the ACTIONS, too! This is going to send them scurrying for more lame excuses as to why an entire belief system should be destroyed based on the actions of an extremely small number!

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'ear me now lads, condemnation is a sign of insecurity.

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No, I think this IS newsworthy, simply because it is so rare to see this sentiment in the world's mainstream press.

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Title and Contents of article at odds. The title implies Muslims worldwide condem the terrorist attack in Mumbai.

The article ends quoting a Muslim columnist observing that there is no popular condemnation of terrorism in the Muslim communities.

The earlier Muslims speaking against the violence were all inferably speaking to the WESTERN PRESS. If the condemnation appeared in the Muslim Press or was made by a Muslim cleric then the whole Muslims world wide condemn the violence claim would be closer to being established.

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'worry about image'. lol. i had to laugh really hard at that one. there isn't any, unfortunately for them. but it's not entirely their fault either. when your lands are directly attacked and occupied, what else would they do? don't worry, the Babylonian Empire was once almighty. look at it now. does that ring a bell for somebody else?

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Smithjapan:

" I profess I have not read the ENTIRE Koran, but I've read enough of an English version of it to know that these radicals have indeed twisted the teachings into their own political and social agenda, "

Oh really? And how do you know that? The call to hate and kill the kuffars (us) is entirely supported by Koranic verses, as well the Sunnah. If you indeed had done your homework, you´d know that.

" and that that does not apply at all to the entire Muslim world any more than I can take passages from the bible (particularly the old testament) and say that all Christians are freaks for wanting to 'cleanse the world of heathens, starting with their neighbours', 'by the sword' and all that crap. "

Newsflash for you: The Old Testament precedes Christianity, so whatever stories are told there are not normative for Christians.

Islam on the other hand is stuck with the doctrine that Mohammed was the perfect man and his behaviour was normative. And as long as that doctrine stands, there will be islamic terrorists.

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