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Iran downed Ukrainian jetliner, U.S., Canadian officials say

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By LOLITA C BALDOR and ZEKE MILLER

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71 Comments
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If there is evidence, share it! I am tired of Trump saying something and expecting the world to accept it as fact!

Prove it, or do everyone a favor and shut the, you know what, up!

-7 ( +8 / -15 )

Yep. Trump's responsible for all the deaths from the plane being shot down. Anyone with a brain knows that.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

If there is evidence, share it

That's not it works.

My money on the Russian and Iranian is that they just want to know 'how did the Ukrainian know what they know'.

Russian missiles whilst deadly, are notorious for mistaking civilian for military targets. This is not the first.

Western missiles also have issues, but have been addressed (because of information sharing), but the Russian aren't interesred in sharing info, so their missiles remain 'inaccurate'.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

US shot down an Iranian plane in the 80s,if they did and it was an accident, they should admit it, like the US did not

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

It looks like another ugly fog of war event. RIP to all the innocent lives lost.

US shot down an Iranian plane in the 80s,if they did and it was an accident, they should admit it, like the US did not

Tacit admission: see below:

 As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.[13]

Will Iran do likewise?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

If there is evidence, share it! I am tired of Trump saying something and expecting the world to accept it as fact!

Prove it, or do everyone a favor and shut the, you know what, up!

Hmmm....I think personally it’s very hard to believe it was a coincidence that this plan envisions just fell out of the sky, it’s possible, but I just don’t believe it given the events that happened on that day. I think it was hit by an Iranian missile and I think that will ultimately come out as such, the parallels just seem to close. I’m pretty sure it’s all going to come out very soon.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Occam's Razor would suggest that if it was hit by a missile that it was due to an error made by Iran's air defense.

That would be embarrassing enough to encourage at least some attempts to cover it up.

12 ( +12 / -0 )

Did anyone with a brain seriously believe it was "engine trouble"?!

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Iran says a sudden emergency struck the plane. ‘Sudden emergency’ must be their euphemism for missile.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Is it a backdoor retaliation move by Iran then? Or being a Ukrainian plane,possibly Russian involvement too? One thing's clear.It resolves nothing.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

An idiotic omission in this article is the war crime committed by US when they downed the Iran Air Flight 655 in 1988. Iran also has a grim history with forged civilian airliners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Russian missiles whilst deadly, are notorious for mistaking civilian for military targets. This is not the first.

What 'Missiles for Dummies' missed out is that missiles just know targets, not whether they are military or civilians. It finally comes down to the accuracy and intelligence .

It was too much of a coincidence for it not to be an Iranian missile that took down the aircraft. Innocent lives lost in senseless violence.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface-to-air missile

How many Iranians is Soleimani responsible for killing now? 32 squashed during his funeral march and 82 more, now we just need to count all those killed by the terrorist organization he helped too.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Another surface-to-air Russian made missile and a downed commercial airliner.

Should we blame Tehran or Moscow for this?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

What 'Missiles for Dummies' missed out is that missiles just know targets, not whether they are military or civilians. 

Are they at war ? Maybe just not shooting in the direction of an airport would be a start.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@bas4ffI’m pretty sure it’s all going to come out very soon.

One of the worst things about the Trump post-truth era is the fact that little if anything Trump says can be believed. I think many Trump backers (US and 'foreign') will wait to hear what the Kremlin (Iran's partner) says, and then believe that. Just like they continue to believe the Kremlin's reports saying Russia doesn't meddle in US politics.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I’ll wait for Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel. By then, maybe everyone will stop lying.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Iran mistakenly shot this plane down. However, this wouldn't have happened in the first place if Donny XIV hadn't inflamed tensions with Iran for his own benefit.

RIP to all the innocent victims of this idiotic conflict.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

What 'Missiles for Dummies' missed out is that missiles just know targets, not whether they are military or civilians

They know whether a target is friendly or not per the IFF spec. They may not know a foe, or a friend that doesn't comply with IFF spec. I would assume this plane transmitted the correct IFF signal (so that allied systems can tell it's friendly).

It finally comes down to the accuracy and intelligence

Yes, but I'm referring to Russian radar capable of correctly operating to IFF spec. There are reports the hybrid Turkish/Russian system (part of planned purchase S400) due to be deployed meets NATO IFF spec and that Turkey is testing it on its fleet of F16s.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Should we blame Tehran or Moscow for this?

To be fair...all else being equal, it's most likely a technical deficiency of the targeting system in identifying friend or foe, and given the heightened alert in the region, the operator would most likely be assuming foe more than friend.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

They know whether a target is friendly or not per the IFF spec. They may not know a foe, or a friend that doesn't comply with IFF spec. I would assume this plane transmitted the correct IFF signal (so that allied systems can tell it's friendly).

So basically all a US adversary has to do is retrofit a civilian airliner with weapons and "western" missile systems will be unable to shoot it down.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

MSR JapanJan. 8 02:51 pm JST

Stray Iranian missile ? About as much possibilty as the other silly suggestions of possible causes !

-3( +3 / -6 )

As above it was called at the time.

Now to the ones thinking its just trump saying it was iranian missile, really are you that blinded by your hatred?

Its all over the news, there is also video if the two missiles been launched with their coordinates also disclosed go read some other news https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12299310 these people have info too. Even trueadeu is saying he has intelligence its iran.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

They know whether a target is friendly or not per the IFF spec.

IFF can only identify as a friend, not as a foe. So a non-response is assumed as a foe.

I would assume this plane transmitted the correct IFF signal (so that allied systems can tell it's friendly).

I don't think you can assume anything without having insight into allied and Iranian systems. There's little doubt Iran bought down this plane, but whether it was system error or human error , we'll find out only once an investigation is complete.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Welcome to the club, Iran. It's not a fun one to be in.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The lefts wants to blame all the actions of Iran to Trump. If Iran leader Qumeni farts then left would say trump is responsible for that. Such a shame..

0 ( +4 / -4 )

If there is evidence, share it!

Yeah! Can you get the Iranians to share the black box info? That would help clarify things.

A lot of Iranians must be suspecting that the government screwed up and shot it down. This is not gonna make the government any more popular.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Phone video showing a light hitting the plane then crashed into the ground

2 ( +2 / -0 )

So basically all a US adversary has to do is retrofit a civilian airliner with weapons and "western" missile systems will be unable to shoot it down.

No. As I understand it, eg the Turkish buying Russian S400. The Turkish is providing the encryption IFF portion of the system to pair with the Russian radar. The Russian don't have it on their own.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

One of the worst things about the Trump post-truth era is the fact that little if anything Trump says can be believed.

And it’s even worse when it comes to believing the msm.

I think many Trump backers (US and 'foreign') will wait to hear what the Kremlin (Iran's partner) says,

I would never, ever trust anything that comes out of the mouths of the Mullahs, let’s just get that out of the way. But as we are speaking, more evidence from the Pentagon and CIA are showing that the Iranians did indeed and tragically and mistakenly, even accidentally shot this plane down.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

So a non-response is assumed as a foe.

which is what I also wrote

They may not know a foe, or a friend that doesn't comply with IFF spec

non response or incorrect response/transmit is assumed foe.

I don't think you can assume anything

it's a Being 737, the FAA makes IFF mandatory.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

As someone tried to say yesterday, this is indeed all DT's fault.  I like how DT offers his opinion and numerous pposters on here rail at being told by DT to accept it as fact.  Trudeau's statement seems far more assertive as to the Iranians having shot the plane down.....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Has debris from the missile been located and identified? Until such time, all this is speculative.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@basf4I would never, ever trust anything that comes out of the mouths of the Mullahs, 

But you'll continue to parrot their partner Russia's reports. SMH

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Great attack there Iran, killed more of your own citizens than the enemy!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I hate when ordinary citizens are murdered like this.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I’ll wait for Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel. By then, maybe everyone will stop lying.

And we’ll know about Building 7!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I would never, ever trust anything that comes out of the mouths of the Mullahs, let’s just get that out of the way.

You also don’t trust our intelligence agencies unless their assessments back up your hyperpartisanship:

But as we are speaking, more evidence from the Pentagon and CIA are showing that the Iranians did indeed and tragically and mistakenly, even accidentally shot this plane down.

>

0 ( +1 / -1 )

“Video appears to show missile strike as Canada and UK say they have intel Iran shot down Ukrainian plane”

now will liberals admit what we were originally told by the Trump administration is correct?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The truth will out eventually.  In the meantime we can all get more and more strident about our own pet theories based on our own peculiar prejudices.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Iranians thought ti was an American bomber.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

A heat-seeker into the engine will cause an initial engine explosions and fire.... then both explanations suddenly make sense.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

NB explosions = explosion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You also don’t trust our intelligence agencies unless their assessments back up your hyperpartisanship:

No, I just don’t trust the liberals that think they know more than the intelligence agency or want to put their hyper-partisan spin on it.

Iranians thought ti was an American bomber.

Dumb and irresponsible, the Iranians know that there are still domestic going in and out of that country and even if these defense missiles were set to automatic they should to other precautions knowing that their commercial fleet was still operational, dumb!

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@blacklabnow will liberals admit what we were originally told by the Trump administration is correct?

For me nothing Trump says can be believed because he's lied and flip-flopped so many times. Aren't you going to wait until the Kremlin issues its report before deciding what happened?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I guess the Iranians will be asking questions about this equipment that they bought off the Russians.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

No, I just don’t trust the liberals that think they know more than the intelligence agency or want to put their hyper-partisan spin on it.

Oh my - this coming from the poster that for the last three years has said our intel community is nothing but the "Deep State" and in collusion with Obama, Hillary, Nancy, and Chuck? Talk about a flip-flop and hyper-partisan spin... I guess you haven't watched Tucker Carlson lately...

“Seems like about 20 minutes ago, we were denouncing these people as the ‘deep state’ and pledging never to trust them again without verification,” Carlson told viewers, eyebrow arched. “Now, for some reason, we do trust them — implicitly and completely.”

It's spelled H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y...

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Oh my - this coming from the poster that for the last three years has said our intel community is nothing but the "Deep State" and in collusion with Obama, Hillary, Nancy, and Chuck?

Oh, now you don’t want to believe the intel?

Talk about a flip-flop and hyper-partisan spin... I guess you haven't watched Tucker Carlson lately...

He had another crazy liberal on again?

“Seems like about 20 minutes ago, we were denouncing these people as the ‘deep state’ and pledging never to trust them again without verification,” Carlson told viewers, eyebrow arched. “Now, for some reason, we do trust them — implicitly and completely.”

Love Tucker, but even every now and then, he can be wrong as well.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

How many Iranians is Soleimani responsible for killing now? 32 squashed during his funeral march and 82 more, now we just need to count all those killed by the terrorist organization he helped too

Well Soleimani with the help of Russians was responsible for eliminating ISIS..and was aligning Iraq closer to Iran, think he was probably eliminated for the later.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Iranians speak the truth! Being tracked by an anti aircraft missile would certainly qualify as a "Sudden Emergency"

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Those people would be alive if Trump hadn't assassinated the Iranian general.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

but in an actual direct correlation they would be alive if an Iranian missile had not exploded their plane. So lets good with that as the root cause.

Those people would be alive if Trump hadn't assassinated the Iranian general.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

"I guess the Iranians will be asking questions about this equipment they bought off the Russians."

Yeah, like how to use it properly. The weapons are working properly, it's the people using them who aren't thinking properly. And, in turn, the people who are selling the weapons to them aren't thinking properly either.

The Russians, and the U.S. as well, should not be supplying these yo-yo countries with these dangerous weapons to begin with. At least, before closing the deal, teach them how to identify something correctly before they aim and fire off a deadly missile.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

it's a Being 737, the FAA makes IFF mandatory.

It does, but yet, we probably had 2 missile hits on this aircraft.

Could be anything, system malfunction(IFF not responding) or human error.

And as I said investigation will reveal the cause sooner or later.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

How many Iranians is Soleimani responsible for killing now? 

What came first the chicken or the egg? Trump's murder of Soleimani was bound to have a ripple effect of negative consequences. This is just the nature of reality that too many people cannot admit 'cos you can get scared when it gets too real!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Those people would be alive if Trump hadn't assassinated the Iranian general.

Those people would have been alive if Solimani wouldn’t have tried to plan the assassination of Americans.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Rumours that Iran is bulldozing the crash site before the NTSB team arrives seem to be an exaggeration. Photos of a front loader carrying larger aircraft parts to a collection point may have been mistaken for a bulldozer.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Sh1mon M4sada

Western missiles also have issues, but have been addressed (because of information sharing), but the Russian aren't interesred in sharing info, so their missiles remain 'inaccurate'

There is no such thing as “dumb” or “clever” missiles, there are dumb and clever people who launch the missiles. Russian-made missiles are no more “inaccurate” then Western-made, it depends on who and how uses them. USS Vincennes was a state-of-the-art warship when it shot down an Iranian jetliner.

 

 

Could Iranians shot down this Ukrainian plane? In principle yes. I’ve read several books on the Iran-Iraq war of 1980-88, and the friendly fire was a serious issue, Iran then lost quite a number of planes due to it. But here are two observations:

 

 

Iran invited NTSB to help with the investigation. Just yesterday several JT posters claimed that Iran’s refusal to cooperate with Western specialists is the certain proof that Iranians shot down the plane. May be it’s better to wait for professionals to come to conclusions?

 

 

About the video of purported missile hit. It reminds me the stories about “chemical weapons attacks” in Syria: whenever “regime forces use chemical weapons”, there always were opposition TV crews on the stand-by, ready to roll. When I saw this missile hit video my first question was how many of you guys in the middle of a night shoot on camera just black sky where nothing happens, to catch (surprise!!) the moment of the hit?

 

 

It’s better to crank down the media noise and calmly wait for results of the investigation. The situation in the region is tense enough.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There's a video that supposedly showed the moment the plane caught fire (wonder if it's a security camera facing that direction since it's strange somebody would just be randomly recording an airplane takeoff):

https://abcn.ws/2Nb6nA4

The impact does look like it was hit with something that's going the opposite way. Sudden fatality maybe why there was no mayday call from the pilots (they were already dead or incapacitated)

It's also strange that the crash scene was cleared too quickly of debris, before more investigators could take a look or two. Unless the crash scene needed to be cleared of debris for some other use, there's really no need to be in a hurry to clear the debris so soon.

Let's see them release the black box and see what it decrypts

0 ( +0 / -0 )

There is no such thing as “dumb” or “clever” missiles, there are dumb and clever people who launch the missiles

I never said 'dumb', how did you arrive at that? I said accurate, in terms of identifying the threat.

Have read of this, how I inrerpret it is Russian system couldn't correctly identify MH17, and the BUK system was supposedly state of the art.

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/buk-crew-had-very-limited-information-about-the-target/

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Could be anything, system malfunction(IFF not responding) or human error.

Seems curious to me that of the two 'recent' events relating to missiles strikes on civillian aircraft involve Russian technology relating to IFF.

I agree, lets wait for the investigation, but this is a forum, and I'm just posting 'my' hunch.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Sh1mon M4sada

Seems curious to me that of the two 'recent' events relating to missiles strikes on civillian aircraft involve Russian technology relating to IFF

How for an Iranian missile (if there was one) the Ukrainian plane could be "friend"? For all Iranian missiles only Iranian planes should be considered by IFF systems as "friends".

The same goes for MH17. Ukrainian Army Buk's IFF did not mark the Malaysian jet as "friend". Technically it worked properly.

but this is a forum, and I'm just posting 'my' hunch

Fair enough. My hunch is that we have "Ukrainian jet" redux. In 2014 it was a massive propaganda onslaught "Putin did it" in order to put pressure on Russia to cave in to Western demands. Now the information campaign against Iran, with the same playbook.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Technically it worked properly.

I'm struggling to picture someone, anyone who says this ^ with a straight face.

459 innocent lives...well if the Russian setout to needlessly destroys innocent lives then they have 'technically' succeeded.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No, I just don’t trust the liberals that think they know more than the intelligence agency or want to put their hyper-partisan spin on it.

okay, but this is irrelevant to you only trusting our intelligence agencies when they support your outlook.

Remember when immigration was the manufactured crisis before Iran became the manufactured crisis? I do.

Remember when fiscal responsibility was the manufactured crisis of the right? I do.

How many irrelevant responses or responses that fail the logic test will I get?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

but in an actual direct correlation they would be alive if an Iranian missile had not exploded their plane. So lets good with that as the root cause

You’re talking about the “but for” cause. In doing so, you’re intentionally, and arbitrarily, putting the line of causation after Donny killed the general. That’s as intellectually dishonest as it gets.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Sh1mon M4sada

459 innocent lives...well if the Russian setout to needlessly destroys innocent lives then they have 'technically' succeeded

What are you talking about? Russians did not kill these people. Malaysian jet was shot down by Ukrainian regime forces. What happenet to this plane is unclear.

By the way, if you think that American, French, Israeli or any other missiles do something different, get real.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Malaysian jet was shot down by Ukrainian regime forces.

Lol, Of course it was, of course it was. Except that the investigating JIT team says it was shot down by a Russian missile, by a Russian brigade based in Kursk, has proof of this due to the (once again) comically bad Russian operatives, has charged three Russian GRU & FSB agents of the crime, and is supported by everyone except (drum roll) Russia.

But I'm sure you have a few more video game screenshots that you can try to pass off as evidence.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

and is supported by everyone except (drum roll) Russia

LOL!!! Yes, The Great Investigation Hoax, supported only by a bunch of Western countries, fabricated by Bellingcat - a murky organization, led by a nobody, a guy who for years did nothing but played videogames. "Investigation" that ignored basic facts, such as that the missile of the serial number used in the shooting since the collapse of the USSR (drum roll) was in the armoury of the Ukrainian Army. No wonder the Malaysian government does not recognize the findings of these fraudsters (so much for "supported by everybody").

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Who's talking about a Bellingcat investigation? JIT was a Dutch led team of over 200 people and four other nations (including Malaysia) who have (amongst other mountains of evidence) phone calls, witnesses and video evidence of the launcher being brought over the border from Russia and sent back the following day after the crash (with a missile missing)

No wonder the Malaysian government does not recognize the findings of these fraudsters (so much for "supported by everybody").

So why did Malaysia propose a tribunal be set up to prosecute the Russian suspects named in the JIT investigation (Russia vetoed it)? I think you mean that Malaysia's bent PM does not, but his prosecutors office certainly does.

Isn't Russia still blaming this on the Ukranian 'ghost' fighter jet that that they faked into the area? Probably got the 'evidence' from Call of Duty again.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

So why did Malaysia propose a tribunal be set up to prosecute the Russian suspects

Malaysia wants to find the truth, and here is the fundamental difference in aproach, because the aim of the "investigation team" from the very beginning was just to prosecute Russia. When the Russians said they were ready to testify and bring their evidence and specialist, the "investigators" quickly lost all interest. They intended to stage one-sided show, but when they saw that Russians were ready to bring their radio intercepts and witnesses, the plan fizzled.

Geez, the "investigators" still unable to give intelligible answers to simple questions, like why Malaysian daily flights from Amsterdam in July 2014 with every day were sent closer and closer to the battlezone, why the Ukrainian neonazi regime did not close the airspace over the battlezone altogether as all normal countries should have done? And where disappeared the Ukrainian air traffic controller who on the day of the tragedy directed MH17 exactly over the battlefield?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Malaysia wants to find the truth,

Which is why they are a part of the JIT team and proposed the tribunal. Why did Russia veto it? Why is Russia refusing to allow people to testify or be interviewed?

and here is the fundamental difference in aproach, because the aim of the "investigation team" from the very beginning was just to prosecute Russia.

You have proof of this 'aim'? Whenever Putin ends up with a smoking gun in his hand (which is increasingly often), it's natural for him to blame everyone else and not co-operate.

When the Russians said they were ready to testify and bring their evidence and specialist, the "investigators" quickly lost all interest.

They haven't "lost all interest", the investigation continues and the trial starts in March with or without the dodgy Russian ghost fighter jets or serial number con jobs. Honestly, you expect them to believe any evidence Russia offers after the fake intel they have tried to supply so far? You had your chance, you lied, you blew it.

like why Malaysian daily flights from Amsterdam in July 2014 with every day were sent closer and closer to the battlezone,

“Fifteen out of 16 airlines in the Association of Asia Pacific Airlines fly this route over Ukraine,” Malaysia’s transport minister Liow Tiong Lai said Friday. “European airlines also use the same route, and traverse the same air space.”

why the Ukrainian neonazi regime did not close the airspace over the battlezone altogether as all normal countries should have done?

Eurocontrol are are responsible for this in European airspace, not Ukraine. I guess they didn't expect incompetent Russians to shoot civilians out of the air at 33,000ft

0 ( +0 / -0 )

...Here are the Kremlin's other previous scattergun attempts to explain the disaster

It was shot down by a Ukranian fighter jet. That then became two fighters.

It was shot down by a missile intended for Vlad's private jet

It was a CIA-Dutch op, where a plane was filled with dead bodies and then shot down (an actual plot from BBC's Sherlock)

But as we know, these are meant for domestic Asakaze consumption only

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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