Iraqi soldier kills 2 U.S. troops in dispute; bombers kill 23

Molenir said:

Right Winger; Ok, I'll admit I believe that Sadaam helped Al Qaida, but then so did a bunch of people in Saudi Arabia, and of course Afghanistan, but Iraq as a country wasn't behind it.

The truth is that this is a conspiracy theory if there ever was one. The CIA has unequivocally stated that there is no link. Cheney was lying and anyone who buys into it cannot figure out the truth.

As far as whether Bush knew there were no WMD's or very few. He should have waited to find out. He either lied and that was illegal or he was ignorant and that is inexcusable. Why should he have waited. There was no eminent threat at all. As I have stated so many times before we had spy planes flying over Iraq at the time. Iraq had no launch capabilities.

It is very sad to hear of our solders being subjected to this kind of violence. My sympathy goes out to the families and those who were hit. The tragedy is compounded by the fact that it was an Iraqi solder. First off, now a solder is unsure about who the enemy is although it is a very small percentage of the Iraqi force (I think and I hope). Secondly, it creates another avenue of instability that must be examined. Intelligence/political contingency plans must be made to avoid Iraqi troops from committing such actions and a high priority must be given to the implementation of any decisions on our course of action. I think it would be best to capture any Iraqi solder alive if it happens in the future. We want to make sure that the enemy does not find this as an attractive alternative. If they believe we can get intelligence out of any shooters or others involved in covert actions by an "installed" Iraqi soldier it will serve to extinguish such plans. I am not saying it is a method used by the enemy and not an individual or small group of individuals who are renegade but we must make plans as if it is.

In my opinion we need to push the Iraqis to increase enlistment and raise their troop levels. I think they should give generous incentives to join. I also think new inductees should be given lie detector tests and ongoing background checks throughout their training.

Anti Iraq War; Bush Lied!

Right Winger; Umm, what was a lie exactly?

Anti Iraq War; He said we were going into Iraq because of WMDs, but there weren't any WMDs, and the real reason was for Oil, and to fix his daddies mistake!

Right Winger; Ah, and the fact that the CIA told everyone that there were in fact WMDs there had nothing to do with it right?

Anti Iraq War; Just admit it, you think Iraq was behind September 11th.

Right Winger; Umm, what? No, no I don't!

Anti Iraq War; Yes you do!

Right Winger; Ok, I'll admit I believe that Sadaam helped Al Qaida, but then so did a bunch of people in Saudi Arabia, and of course Afghanistan, but Iraq as a country wasn't behind it.

Anti Iraq War; See, you admit it! Besides, Bush knew about 911 in advance and did nothing!

Right Winger; You're a lunatic, you know that right?

Anti Iraq War; You just don't want to admit the truth!

Right Winger; Next thing you know you'll be ranting about UFOs and coverups too. Or maybe you want to vent about Halliburton and no bid contract.

Anti Iraq War; Shut up!

As an aside, this conversation, greatly resembles one that actually took place between one of my co-workers and myself. Admittedly he really does believe in UFOs, coverups, and conspiracy theories. He's also a left wing lunatic, so take that how you will.

this doesn't surprise me. if the U.S. was invaded, then this would be happening to the occupier far more frequently, like all the time.

The logic of a Right Winger and why they believe we should stay in Iraq has no logic. Their logic is a song and a dance. They sing about being patriots and that we are in Iraq to protect our freedoms. But in fact they do not themselves understand that logic.

So when you ask them a straight question they dance around and try to make a confusing link that no one understands. So while you scratch your head they run for the door never really answering a single one of your questions.

This is a tactic that has been employed by them for years now.

Anti Iraq War; So why did we invade Iraq?

Right Winger; Because we are safer.

Anti Iraq War; But that is not a reason they had nothing to do with Sept 11th, why are we safer?

Right Winger; Because our freedoms are now safe.

Anti Iraq War; Do you believe that Iraq was involved with the Sept 11th attacks?

Right Winger; Exactly!

Anti Iraq War; So you believe the Iraqi government was involved with the Sept 11th attacks?

Right Winger; I never said that, I said our freedoms are now safe!

Anti Iraq War; Okay you did not say a darn thing of substance all you are doing is dancing. Will you give a straight answer as to what you believe?

Right Winger; I think I have made my point, you see folks anyone who is against our freedom loving war in Iraq is a LIBERAL that hates our freedoms! So if you are against us, you are a LIBERAL and a traitor!

Anti Iraq War; Stop dancing and give us a real answer!

Right Winger; I have and if you do not understand it then you must be a LIBERAL!

Anti Iraq War; What the?

In these debates with the Right Wingers you will never change their minds. You just want to make sure that everyone who sees the debate understand that the Right Wingers are just trying to dance and that is all.

Psyops got to love it!

Fact: Iraq and the world is better off with a freely elected government in Iraq.

romulus3:"Look how it inflated oil prices through the roof over the past few years"

Never heard of China, have you, romulus3? Check it out. And check out oil prices as of late, too.

"what a scam."

Heh, not so. Them there troops are fighting so sarge and friend(s) can remain free to Deny that all is going well in Bush Co's Iraq.....despite the obvious.

Cleo, Mad, Flag,

Great posts. This war is the biggest heist of American tax payer dollars in history. It makes subprime look like a credit card debt. Look how it inflated oil prices through the roof over the past few years. so many people got rich by the blood of the Iraqi people and at the expense of the US tax payer and soldiers. what a scam.

when did we all forget that this is all about oil, not poor suffering Iraqis living under Saddam

at about 11:15am when the moderator decided we should

Moderator: All readers, please stay on topic.

Bah, and spunking taxpayer money using up the stocks of arms that daddy's (and friends) defense company sells to the US army...

when did we all forget that this is all about oil, not poor suffering Iraqis living under Saddam.

I thought it was about the megalomaniac in the White House getting his jollies from going one better than his daddy.

What kind of life did they have, Cleo? Comapred to the kind of life Iraqis will have in the future, thanks to George Bush and the United States of America

when did we all forget that this is all about oil, not poor suffering Iraqis living under Saddam.

face it sarge, you were duped like millions of others but are too embarassed to admit it so just keep spouting the freedom line.

Sarge -

What kind of life do they have now? None at all, thanks to George W 'War Prez' Bush and the United States of America.

If they thought they'd be better off dead than living under Saddam, then it was up to them to rise up against him or die in the attempt. Failing that they had the option of committing suicide if it was too unbearable. It was not the place of the US to make that decision for them.

sarge, you are making no sense at all

compared...

"Impossible to say for the tens maybe hundreds of thousands woh were and did live in Iraq"

What kind of life did they have, Cleo? Comapred to the kind of life Iraqis will have in the future, thanks to George Bush and the United States of America?

Easy for someone to say who wasn't and still doesn't live in Iraq

Impossible to say for the tens maybe hundreds of thousands who were and did live in Iraq but don't now because the invasion turned them into collateral damage.

Wottock - It ( Iraq ) was pretty pretty stable"

Easy for someone to say who wasn't and still doesn't live in Iraq.

Jordan fades back...

BlackFlag - You are as wrong as you can be. If we're the agressors, as you insist, how come the elected Iraqi government is openly demanding our withdrawal? A true aggressor would never permit such a thing.

Jordan fades back...

JoeBigs - "Tell us here Sarge why did we invade Iraq"

I already told you why we liberated Iraq.

Jordan fades back...

If we allow Islamic extremists to take over Iraq and make it a base for their operations, we could face attacks which would make 9/11 look like a picnic.

And I think you'll find it was pretty stable, and not about to be taken over by anyone until, oh, let me see now...the Bush's bungled invasion. So who's to blame for empowering the extremists?

Oh, and 9/11 still isn't relevant.

Sarge at 11:11 AM JST - 14th November

"But Sarge in those wars we were not the aggressors, we were the liberators."

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Liberals think we're the aggressors in all of this. We didn't liberate Iraq, we "attacked a defenseless country to steal its oil" ( roll eyes )

Sarge, we (the United States of America) invaded a country that had nothing to do with the attacks of September 11th. We invaded them for no reason other than the oil and an easy target.

Tell us here Sarge why did we invade Iraq, please I wish to understand your right wing logic in all this. I am not joking I just wish to understand your stance.

BTW if the term Liberal means someone who is against using our forces to invade a nation that did nothing to us, then I will accept that label.

We are not war mongers, we are the United States of America! I think the right wingers have forgotten that we stand by a little piece of paper called the Constitution.

dont roll your eyes Sarge, you just nailed it

"But Sarge in those wars we were not the aggressors, we were the liberators."

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Liberals think we're the aggressors in all of this. We didn't liberate Iraq, we "attacked a defenseless country to steal its oil" ( roll eyes )

"No it isn't. Don't be silly."

Yes it is. Don't stick your head in the sand.

If we allow Islamic extremists to take over Iraq and make it a base for their operations, we could face attacks which would make 9/11 look like a picnic.

Sarge at 10:49 AM JST - 14th November

"Could Sarge please explain to me how fighting in Iraq is protecting my freedom of speech?"

You know how fighting in France and Germany and Okinawa protected our freedom of speech? Same thing.

But Sarge in those wars we were not the aggressors, we were the liberators.

BTW if my non-Republican history serves me I think we were attacked by Japan and went to war with Japan then aided the world as it fought off the Russians.

If we would have used the Republican logic back then it would have gone something like this;

Japan attacks America, America invades Argentina.

Kind of a silly idea now isnt it Sarge?

Same thing with this logic;

America is attacked by the Taliban/Al-Qaeda Afghanistan, America invades Iraq.

Kind of really stupid move now isnt?

66 and a wake up before this bunch is out of office.

I agree with Wottock

No it isn't. Don't be silly.

"Could Sarge please explain to me how fighting in Iraq is protecting my freedom of speech?"

You know how fighting in France and Germany and Okinawa protected our freedom of speech? Same thing.

Madverts - Nah, they'll slug it out until either a strongman takes over, or the religious nutters and they squash everyone into line.

Yeah, that's going to happen. But I'm talking about the ordinary Iraqi who hasn't worked since we attacked. Sure there will be a fight for control of the country, but getting the Iraqis working and feeling of patriotism toward their own country. It's the ordinary Iraqi that will get the economy and rebuilding on a constructive path. < :-)

"Give them jobs and responsibility and they'll get their dignity back."

Nah, they'll slug it out until either a strongman takes over, or the religious nutters and they squash everyone into line.

I know lot's of Americans still think spilling more of the troops blood to try and prove this isn't the miserable failure it was always going to be, but the patience with Bush Co's scew-ups is gone.

Pull out and let 'em deal with it. In all fairness and sespite the corporate plundering, the US has given Iraq the chance to sort itself - it just 'aint capable of doing it.

Get the United States needs to get out of Iraq as soon as possible. When george bush attacked Iraq they hadn't put together any plans for departure.

These types of incidents will be over if we get out. Iraq needs to and has to take control of their own military and police. Iraq has to take over security almost immediately.

Since we attacked with no exit stradegy, I'm sure we've developed something since. We need to start planning to start pulling out our troops and equipment safely and timely.

We've done enough damage in Iraq. Extract and help them rebuild with Iraqis doing their own work. Give them jobs and responsibility and they'll get their dignity back. < :-)

Sarge at 05:11 PM JST - 13th November

lessee... we've got a freely elected government

Same freely elected government that wants us out of there

a situation where the freely elected government is confident that it can handle security on its own without any U.S. troops from 2011,

Actually they want us out sooner rather than later. They just want us to be honest with them and get out.

Wait a minute Sarge, are you now FOR a time table to withdraw? Or are my eyes playing an evil hoax on me???

Ok ok who kidnapped Sarge and replaced him with this new pro Obama stance guy????? smithinjapan did you kidnap Sarge?

This can not be the same Sarge that was whole hardly against an Obama time table for with draw!

and the other day I saw a picture of an Iraqi woman holding a sign saying "Thank you very much Mr. Bush."

Actually I saw one also but it was from 2003......

Is it not time to bag out of this pit and get to icing Bin Laden?

BTW could Sarge please explain to me how fighting in Iraq is protecting my freedom of speech? Love to hear the other Sarge`S logic on that one.

sorry, CHortle.

Heh.

"The war was not on a barbie dream empire it was on a country that had a leader killing his own people in genocide"

No, it was about "WMD" that didn't exist. That were "a clear and present danger". Images that invoked "mushroom clouds over NYC". Paranoia that emptied NY shops of chemical protection suits and had people duct aping their windows....

Keep up the feeble attempts at re-writing history, nippon. We'll always be here to hcortle.

Lmao...

Maybe if you two actually meet in the middle you would have a more truthful arguement.. Some people in Iraq are glad to have the US there and what they did, some hate us more now then ever.. The war was not on a barbie dream empire it was on a country that had a leader killing his own people in genocide, but we shouldnt have gone alone we should of waited for the UN to back the invasion and be the rebuilder. The war in Iraq has caused financial burden on the US, but our goverment is over spending and under taxing its people, they spend too much overseas in support of goverments who dont deserve the money.

See its kinda a bit of both of your extremist views..

Monarchy 2012 !!!!!!

Off with their heads!!!!!!

And I see Sarge simply refuses to accept that this attack on a sovereign country, on a trumped-up charge, illegally, in a geopolitically vital region with centuries of tribal feuding champing at the bit for an excuse to kick off again, was a catastrophic criminal blunder resulting in uncountable deaths and the bankrupting of his own country.

I see Wottock simply refuses to accept the fact that some Iraqis are grateful for what the United States, led by Bush, did.

powderfinger,

And the reports of the "dire" humanitarian situation, with as many as 40% of households still without safe drinking water were just more lies by those nasty MSM people that put Obama into the oval office I guess...

So we're not at "the level of violence Iraqi's can live with" yet.

No. End. In. Sight. What a surprise. If only the anti-war crowd had bothered to mention this might happen....

"the other day I saw a picture of an Iraqi woman holding a sign saying "Thank you very much Mr. Bush."

That is not hard to believe at all, unless this site is your sole source of news on events in Iraq.

Reuters recently reported that bridges are literally being rebuilt in Baghdad, reopened and reconnecting communities that were at war with each other as recently as a year ago.

"Officials said the event was a sign that the sectarian hatred that fueled years of violence in Iraq is ebbing away. The number of Iraqi civilians and U.S. troops killed last month was the lowest monthly toll since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

"This day is a remarkable day, a day of a great Iraq. The day of meeting, love, brotherhood, affinity ... The day we proved to the whole world that we are one nation," Sayyid Salih al-Haidari, Samaraie's Shi'ite counterpart said in a speech. Delegations accompanying the two officials then went to pray together at a nearby mosque."

"Baghdad bridge of death becomes bridge of hope" Tue Nov 11, 2008

the other day I saw a picture of an Iraqi woman holding a sign saying "Thank you very much Mr. Bush."

Photoshop is a marvellous thing, isn't it?

Focus your comments on the current or future situation in Iraq.

Yes, I can understand why any Iraqi soldier looking at the current situation of his country, how his once rich country has been looted and destroyed, mainly by the US, may want to shoot at American troops. His actions are not so unwarranted.

With all due respect Moddie, the current and future situation in Iraq is that a lot of people are dead and wounded that shouldn't be, and a lot of babies that should have been born healthy haven't been, aren't being and won't be.

The current and future situation in Iraq... lessee... we've got a freely elected government, a situation where the freely elected government is confident that it can handle security on its own without any U.S. troops from 2011, and the other day I saw a picture of an Iraqi woman holding a sign saying "Thank you very much Mr. Bush."

Yep, and millions of Iraqis would still be alive today, and less babies would be born with horrific tumors. Iraq was doing very well before the sanctions.

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. Speculating what Iraq would be like today if Saddam were still power is absolutely irrelevant. Focus your comments on the current or future situation in Iraq.

If "if" and "buts" were candy and nuts would it be christmas everyday?

Seems allot ask this question too much....

What if Sadamm had stayed in power and what if he built a nuke, and what if he fired it?..

What if the US didnt invade Iraq? What if Sadamm wasnt taken from power? What if the UN was more then a social gathering place?

What if Canada was a world leader? What if they had to be the world power? What if Africa was peacful? What if Iran made candy instead of hatrid?What if NK changed its nukes to flower planters?

Maybe we should look at it for what it is..

9/11 was an attack from AQ to the west (not just the US but all that it represents).

The attack on Afganistan was an UN/NATO attack based on multiple countries armies, mostly by the northern alliance..

The attack on Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorist attack.. It was to dethrown a person that the UN had called the most vile ruler in modern times...

We will leave Iraq with a better overall situation then when we came in with more freedoms for the people.. It wont last long and Iraq will be just like old..

We will have our men dying more often in Afgahnistan then Iraq and we will hear those against the Iraq war saying the same about Obama and Afganistan..

We will still be looked at, as the super power with both love and hate...

And to top it off we will have to pay more taxes because any 2nd grader can tell you a bigger second number(expenses) then the first number(income) is going to be negative...

:)

the world would definitely be a much more stable and safe place if Saddam Hussein was still running Iraq into the ground from his many luxurious palaces.

Yep. And more than 4,000 brave US fighting men and women would still be alive.

smith - You're right, of course - the world would definitely be a much more stable and safe place if Saddam Hussein was still running Iraq into the ground from his many luxurious palaces.

Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?

The reason you have troops in Iraq is because some people in high places lied their asses off. The Iraq invasion was not a mistake, it was a crime, a big one. Those liars should be executed for treason.

Let us get the hell out of there and get to hunting Bin Laden!

Why do some people continue to believe that those same liars who created that mess in Iraq were somehow completely honest when they showed us a video and told us bin Laden was behind 911. He had nothing to do with it, and he's probably dead anyway.

sarge: "To preserve your freedom to ask "Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?""

Funniest thing I've heard all day, sarge. Thanks. Of course, our posts on here can now be monitored by your government thanks to bush TAKING AWAY your freedoms, etc. Not that the US government would be bothered by anything on here... just making a point. Sorry, sarge, but you got it backwards; the invasion of Iraq made the world more unstable and a less safe place.

"Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?"

To preserve your freedom to ask "Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?"

Yep, that's why they call it "Operation American Freedom"!

"Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?"

To preserve your freedom to ask "Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again?"

Could someone please tell me why we have troops in Iraq again? Let us get the hell out of there and get to hunting Bin Laden!

smithinjapan - I try not to take anything personal here. It's cool.

I feel for you, man, and pray for the safe return of your loved ones.

Thanks and for every body else also.

Continue to pray for peace. < :-)

adaydream: "I've got two serving on active duty right now. A son-n-law and a nephew. They enlisted after george bush lied his ass off and started the war."

I feel for you, man, and pray for the safe return of your loved ones. Fortunately, with Obama at the helm they'll be home all the sooner. UNfortunately, thanks to bush, that doesn't make them any safer in the present.

I hope you realize, though, that my comment was not at all a slight to those serving or what have you, but was a jab at rjd_jr's comment on another post (that you cannot have an opinion if you are not directly invovled in something. Ie., he shouldn't be commenting here if he actually believes what he says).

sarge: "Good, we can delay the start of Obama's disastrous policies for another 68 days."

Disastrous only to those who love war and pain. A relief to those who want peace. Enjoy the destruction and death for the remaining 68 days you can, sarge. It'll be interesting to see how you react when presented with the possibility of happiness.

sarge: "Except that violence in Iraq is way down from the mayhem in the aftermath of the liberation."

WRONG! Admittedly, it's down in the wake MONTHS after the surge, but after 'liberation'? Sorry, sarge, it got a WHOLE lot worse before getting better, and by getting better I mean better than it was when it was worse, not less violent than when under Saddam (far less violent than now, even). Or, do I have to show you the death tolls that have occured since mission 'Illegally Invade a Sovereign Nation Because We Can't Find the Real Criminals Behind 9/11 and Need to Save Our Sorry A$$es' began?

skip: "Now if that had not happened and GWB went into Iraq I'd stand 100% behind you but I have a tendency to flip on the issue every time I visit my friends who died on 9-11 and then think if they had hit those building just a tab later, the outcome would have been much bigger, so its also the attempt that burns me up."

You were right to say in your next line, "I know you're going to say Iraq had nothing to do with it..." because Iraq had nothing to do with it, PERIOD! They didn't at all have the same way of thinking, and if you twist the logic somehow so that Saddam being a dictator somehow has something to do with the terrorist attacks on 9/11 by predominantly Saudi nations (and Saudi Arabia and Saddam hated each other), then prep. up for war, my friend, because I have a list of dozens of other countries with dictators as bad if not worse than Saddam (I could even make a case for Israel!), so you're going to need to attack all them too to avenge your friends.

Drop it, skip. It's not an 'idea' that Iraq had something to do with 9/11; it's not something that's debatable, it's wrong... and that's a fact. Being angry about 9/11 and looking for someone to blame -- that's understandable. Actually picking someone at random and blaming them for what they had nothing to do with? That's not.

Except that violence in Iraq is way down from the mayhem in the aftermath of the liberation.

But the violence is still much higher than before the invasion (aka liberation). It is a mess.

"What a mess that place is"

Except that violence in Iraq is way down from the mayhem in the aftermath of the liberation.

"goerge bush ( George Bush ) is still in office for another 68 days"

Good, we can delay the start of Obama's disastrous policies for another 68 days.

george bush is still in office for another 68 days. Obama isn't doing anything right now. It's still bush's to make worse.

Adult children and grandchildren.

I don't want anybody else dieing because of george bush's profiteering. < :-)

Well, isn't Obama going to end all of this?

aday: You have adult children? I am sorry, but you are too old to understand the world of today. GWB started this Iraq mess, but what brought the whole thing into play? Now if that had not happened and GWB went into Iraq I'd stand 100% behind you but I have a tendency to flip on the issue every time I visit my friends who died on 9-11 and then think if they had hit those building just a tab later, the outcome would have been much bigger, so its also the attempt that burns me up. I know, you are going to say Iraq had nothing to do with it, well my friends and several which were Muslim btw, had nothing to do with the policies that have been said are the reason behind the attacks.

timorborder - One has to ask what the logic of this so-called war is.

Profits for the cheney's and bush's of the United States and the world. < :-)

A country in ruins, hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, casualties all around and now two more US soldiers who will be going home in body bags. One has to ask what the logic of this so-called war is.

smithinjapan - I've got two serving on active duty right now. A son-n-law and a nephew. They enlisted after george bush lied his ass off and started the war.

(Wolkpack) They enlisted for patriotism, a job, training, better their position in the economy.

I'd feel horrible if they were wounded or killed.

Bring them home alive. End the war in Iraq. < :-)

rjd_jr: "And two U.S. soldiers killed by the very people they are training to keep stability in the country? What's the excuse this time, blame it yet again on al qaeda of iraq infiltrators?"

Hey, rjd... do you have family in the US Armed forces? Imagine how you would feel if you lost a loved one! Come on, bud, by your own logic in the 'NK hints at existance of Japan abductees...' you said one has no right to criticize if not directly affected by the events. So, why on earth are you posting here?

No end in sight. Bring the troops home.

But first thank the US for providing this country with not only weapons and explosives, but also the knowledge to reproduce the weapons and explosives. Thanks America! Great job in yet another country!

Damn, if george bush had only stayed the heck out of Iraq. < :-)

Iranian training, Chinese-supplied ammunition, Syrian and Iranian agents fermenting trouble, Mullahs encouraging ethnic and religous hatred, Pakistani intelligence services helping al-Qaeda and the Taliban...

I doubt the troubles in that region will end anytime soon.

What a mess that place is

Without a doubt, this is the work of the iranian trained hit squads that have been filtering back into iraq.

On another news site it states that the military hasn't investigated this killing yet. There for the comments or “There was no argument, no spitting, no slapping, none of that occurred.”

But JT's articles sends a message that this is all completed. < :-)

They were probably bragging about how wonderful they were and how backward the Iraqis are

treat it as an isolated incident of friendly-fire and bring troops home.

No need to panic, violence levels are still..... Oh my word, did I just repeat myself for the third time in as many days? And two U.S. soldiers killed by the very people they are training to keep stability in the country? What's the excuse this time, blame it yet again on al qaeda of iraq infiltrators?

No end in sight. Bring the troops home.