Islamic State claims responsibility for Berlin Christmas market attack; driver still at large

ISIS - A group of crazy cowards who believe that murdering innocent people is somehow pleasing to their god. Boy are they in for a surprise

Hateful, bigoted, extremist scum once again showing how evil members of the most hideous and vicious subpopulation on the planet are. It's not just ISIS, it's also Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, and countless other terrorist organizations that for whatever twisted reason can justify and even glory in slaughtering innocents, even members of their own religion.

RIP to the victims and condolences to their friends, families and neighbors.

Let me be the first to apologize to the Pakistani asylum seeker Naved B for prematurely assuming he was the terrorist yesterday. According to the BBC, he has only been known to police for 'minor crimes' and not terrorism since arriving in Germany last year. What a relief... I guess?

Perhaps it's not a huge surprise to wake up today and discover that the German authorities have completely bungled the situation and are hopelessly incompetent... yet again.

Germany is not involved in anti-IS combat operations, but has Tornado jets and a refueling plane stationed in Turkey in support of the coalition fighting militants in Syria, as well as a frigate protecting a French aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean, among other assets.

It shows how weak and desperate IS has become that they cannot strike effectively at the enemies doing real damage to them, so they're just striking targets of opportunity to raise their visibility. It shows that paradoxically, they must be on the wane if they're so desperate for the superficial appearance of a victory that they'd lash out at an innocent party just because it's a party they have a chance to hit.

One wonders what has to happen before the Germans unite and protect their country. Multi-kulti does not work; immigration must be limited and strictly controlled. Enough of the namby-pampy group hug, come together tripe.

Merkel: shame on you. It is disgusting.

I'll bet the atmosphere at shopping malls and department stores on Christmas eve is going to be jittery in Europe and the U.S. The authorities have to be lucky every day; terrorists have to be lucky only one day. I wonder what they are planning next.

It's getting so you can't go anywhere in public without feeling apprehension - markets, stores, cafes, restaurants, concert venues, sports venues, airports, bus terminals, wherever.

Well, to hell with perpetrators of violence. You're not going to spoil my Christmas. I'm going out to as many public places as I can. No siege mentality for me.

The Islamic State group claimed responsibility Tuesday for a truck attack on a crowded Berlin Christmas market

When? How? Where? To who?

Hell, that Aum guy rotting in a Japanese prison could claim responsibility.

Claiming responsibility would mean it would have had to have been planned, ordered and given the green light by the organization. It looks more like a spur of the moment decision, hijacking a truck and killing the driver.

Perhaps it's not a huge surprise to wake up today and discover that the German authorities have completely bungled the situation and are hopelessly incompetent... yet again.

There are always far away spectators who use a tragedy to demonstrate their superior understanding and knowledge about the situation.

"The Islamic State group claimed responsibility Tuesday for a truck attack on a crowded Berlin Christmas market

When? How? Where? To who?"

Few hours ago via Amaq their own news agency which then reported the news, fizzbit. It's often said that IS conducts a virtual caliphate with virtual armies/soldiers who pledge allegiance to IS flag/cause/values etc then act. That's why it is virtually impossible to eradicate them as long as the ideology behind it exists.

Re the poor Pakistani guy who is apparently innocent, as someone who escaped persecution and was granted asylum in free europe am sure he'll understand that our world is under attack from ppl not too dissimilar to the ppl who persected him back home and understand why he was arrested (I.e he was 'there', passers by thought he had jumped from the truck etc). Good on german police for following up the lead they have. No harm done, the bloke is free, no need to shout 'see the poor guy was unfairly targetted'. He wasn't.

You wanna know why we have terrorists and ISIS??? We should all thank the USA and Obama for all the recent terrorist attack. They destabilized the Middle East for their own gain. Basically Quatar and Saudi Arabia sponsored terrorists to fight against Assad for not letting them build the pipeline from Quatar to the EU.

Quatar and Saudi oil money and interests used their finance to sway US politicians and diplomacy (we hate Russia and Iran just like the US) to turn USA in their own puppet of destruction.

USA used it's normal tricks and proven "democracy call" strategy like:

financing NGOs that stir negative public opinion against the leader, start riots, opposition, and force the leader to violently stop the protests make media exaggerate and propagate the message that Assad is bad go to the UN assembly and claim "chemical weapons" or "weapons of mass destruction" without any proof (remember Iraq?) topple the regime either by public pressure to force a resignation (Ukraine in the 2000s), terrorists called "freedom fighters" (Nicaragua and Afghanistan in the 80s) or military force (Panama 90s, Iraq 90s, 2000s, Afghanistan 2000s, Lybia 2000s)

It didn't work because Russia and China played tough and defended Assad.

So then the next option is sponsor ISIS and create total chaos and a war of attrition until Russia pulls out and the US gets in there as a saviour and saves the day and builds the pipeline.

Few hours ago via Amaq their own news agency which then reported the news, fizzbit.

Thanks goldo. Still, they could claim responsibility for anything, but if they had no contact with this muderer, then it's questionable. If they had his name on a list of operatives then I'd say they could.

They destabilized the Middle East for their own gain.

So true. These globalist hedgemons must be exposed before any peace can prevail.

Syrian Ambassador to U.N. Reads Names of Spies and Intelligence Agents Trapped in East Aleppo

A Brit, Yank, Isreali, and others but mostly Sauds. No need to take a guess what they were doing there.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iJKN9Z8UU94

@Edward - Much of what you say is true however this is not the Obama administration only. This is the Bush administration and the Clinton administration before him.....and back...and back...to the Shah of Iran.

On the other hand this does not excuse some wacko religious fundamentalist from murdering innocent civilians including women and children.

I am an American and I personally do not like the Islamic religion. Much of the values related to the religion go against what I personally believe in (Is it ok to say that nowadays?). Islam to me seems to be rather intolerant and also very much homophobic and subjugates women. That is my opinion only.

Many people fail to see the Obama administration carried out similar policies as the Bush administration all directed by the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), of which Hillary Clinton is a member (along with Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, etc.).

My prayers go out for the innocents that were savagely murdered in the name of Allah.

I dont have much faith in the German police, after their previous bungling and politically-motivated cover-ups from the Cologne mass sexual assaults, that guy on the roof they said was a terrorist, and now. this. German cops are obedient instruments of the state. Some things never change.

We should all thank the USA and Obama for all the recent terrorist attack. They destabilized the Middle East for their own gain.

You're blaming Obama for the destabilization of the middle east?

Absolutely clueless. He inherited a destabilized middle east. Bush played a huge part in that by destroying a country that had not done anything to the US, but the region was already destabilized even before bush.

First and foremost, the guy who did the attack is responsible. Hopefully we can agree on that.

When things like this happen people usually just attach their own hot button issue to it. Don't like Merkel's policies? It's her fault. Don't like US foreign policy? Blame that as well. Don't like Muslims or Islam? Blame them all. Don't like the right and their hardline policies? Blame them. Don't like the left and their liberal policies? Blame them. The list is endless.

Thanks goldo. Still, they could claim responsibility for anything, but if they had no contact with this muderer, then it's questionable. If they had his name on a list of operatives then I'd say they could.

It depends also on exactly how they word the message and the terms used. ISIS has certainly claimed responsibility for probably most major attacks in the US even though concrete evidence wasn't found that the attackers were actually in direct contact with operatives abroad. But even if it is only being inspired by their propaganda and the violence the damage of a truck or knife can be equal to a bomb if not more so.

But Tarek Elmasoudi, an Egyptian asylum-seeker, said he wasn’t afraid of repercussions. “The Germans are very nice and I want to stay here.”

Fellow Aslyum Seekers are not nice to Germans and killing Germans who give them food, shelter and accommodation. I have German friends who are still feeling guilty about Germen atrocities during WWII. Merkel does not want to be seen like leader who kicked out thousands and thousands of Jews during WWII. She does not want to feel guilty about her ancestors crime.

The difference is Jews were law abiding people and they did not rape and butcher Germans. Japan has accepted some Jews refugees after WWII. There were no major hate crimes like Germany and France. New Generation Germans should not be burdened with humanitarian programs.

IS follower has already cut the throats of French Priest. In fact they are waging religious war to westerners. Military might is not useful for eliminating lone wolf attacks. Both Russia and US have lost their ambassadors by IS sympathizers.

The easiest way for minimizing terror is touch and strict immigration. If Germans have to give up drinking beers in October and enjoying festive season like before, politically corrected humanitarian program is no longer worthed.

Japan is not Germany which will never open the gate for floods of economic refugees. Merkel will pay the price of her mother Theresa heart with losing her job. Germany national Emblem is Eagle. When this bird is on mission, there will be no rules, no mercy, no excuse and no forgiveness. Eagle is not interested in becoming Saint.

"The Germans were very nice and I want stay there."

I wish you good luck 'very much' !

Surprise! IS did it! and all the hot air speculating about how and who and why was just typical press hot air. and this is another nail in the coffin of Merkel and her government. For all of our compassion and fellow feeling and other nice Christian feelings, truth is that people on the receiving end of this type of thing and of mass immigration and economic misery and having to coexist with people who don't share their values and have a different world view have had enough.

Wakarimasen, Compassion and helping other people has nothing to do with the teachings of a particular religion, in-fact in many cases religion is directly in opposition to equality and acceptance.

Anyway, as many said its not surprising which group claimed responsibility.

I can't help but wonder where we are headed as everyone doubles down on their particular affiliations, be it religious or political, are we headed directly into a new dark age?

What happened to live and let live, all of these opinions and so few tangible facts, but as I have posted before we are sadly heading into the post-truth era.. our humanity, our society the very ideals that allowed us to flourish are slowly being eroded with opinion as fact, my truth and your truth nonsense.

Be whatever religion you choose but don't force that, or whatever archaic rules happen to come along with it, on to anyone else. Be part of any political voice you want live your life according to those ideals but don't force others.

I just wish people could clearly ask themselves, is this thing I believe worth someones else's life or causing great hardship for others. Surely if, in the case of religion, you have an all powerful being on your side and you are right in that belief you don't ever need to take these kinds of terrible actions on people simply going about their lives.

Now I'm fairly left leaning, but do see the issue with people calling out the specific issues of certain belief systems as racist, religion isn't a race, and all things, all religions and all ideologies must be able to be questioned.

"I just wish people could clearly ask themselves, is this thing I believe worth someones else's life or causing great hardship for others. Surely if, in the case of religion, you have an all powerful being on your side and you are right in that belief you don't ever need to take these kinds of terrible actions on people simply going about their lives."

Unfortunately, many Muslims believe the holy book they have comes directly from the creator and is perfect in every way. There are injunctions in this book to kill non-believers. The Hadiths also contain some shocking ideas. Peaceful Muslims tell us that those injunctions were only valid in the past ( I can't imagine when they were ever valid ) but clearly some disagree. The fact that mainstream Muslims find it difficult, if not impossible, to call out and decry the violent verses for what they are and always were is a real problem. Questioning the holy text, criticizing it ( I wouldn't recommend satirizing it ) can often lead to....violence.

The fact that mainstream Muslims find it difficult, if not impossible, to call out and decry the violent verses for what they are and always were is a real problem.

Are talking about mainstream US Muslims? European Muslims? We certainly can't expect Muslim leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar or others to speak out, they're counting on it.

"Are talking about mainstream US Muslims? European Muslims? We certainly can't expect Muslim leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar or others to speak out, they're counting on it."

I've watched quite a few debates with people including the Ibrahim Mogra ( leader of the Muslim Council of Britain ) and Tariq Ramadan ( now a professor at Oxford University ) and Congressman Keith Ellison in the US among others. Ellison in particular seems to live in a world where this book only teaches love and peace and anyone who disagrees is ignorant. The tactic seems to be to try to avoid the violent verses of the Koran altogether, attempt to muddy the waters when talking about Mohammed's conduct as a military leader and when pushed, make it clear that the violent verses were only valid at a particular time and situation.

They without fail will not state categorically that these violent verses are disgraceful. The debate seems more focused on whether these verses are still valid. ISIS and others think they still are.

Mainstream Muslims like Main Stream Media which is biased for particular belief or ideology. A.though I have no ill feeling for any particular religion or geographic, there are some problems for co-existing belivers and non believers. Saudi flag is a sword symbol. I was the tools used for settling any disputes and differences. Violence was the solution for ancient warlords of Saudi. Jihard is the slogan for punishment of non believers.

For that terror, Guests who are enjoying comfort and support of host, slaughtered innocent shoppers. Tolerance should be two way street. If the Guest who is not willing to co-exist harmoniously with hospitable host, they should be deported sooner than later. Westerners working and living in Middle East can not show public affection. They have to behave modestly with courtesy to host nation such as Dubai.

However middle Eastern Immigranst do not tolerate western way of life and they want host nations to follow their way for avoiding poultry and alcohol. Western Man or Woman must change their religious belief if they want to marry believers. It is the dark age of medieval warriors who want to control the world with blood thirsty manners.

Some refugees are IS followers who were given to Europeans as Trojan horses which has destroyed City of Troy.

I've watched quite a few debates with people including the Ibrahim Mogra ( leader of the Muslim Council of Britain ) and Tariq Ramadan ( now a professor at Oxford University ) and Congressman Keith Ellison in the US among others. Ellison in particular seems to live in a world where this book only teaches love and peace and anyone who disagrees is ignorant

I really wouldn't know so I'll take your word on it for your opinions. The west has been using this fanaticism to their advantage for a long long time. Something about chickens coming home seems appropriate.

Outrider, as I said, I find that attitude, of some liberals, to put islam above criticism or call any comment about it racism is unhelpful and to be somewhat ignorant of the facts at hand.

However I don't think its a case of choosing a religion to support or champion, from my perspective thats trading one disease for another. Any dogmatic set of ideologies can be taken advantage of, religion or political.

Sure one currently is undeniably causing more violent issues at this point, but to say the other isn't effecting people lives is clearly not accurate. Closure of health facilities and access to medicine for women are a religiously based movement, thats not live and let live for example.

Back to the case at hand, one thing bothers me immensely is this immediate "pray for so and so", so far the praying doesn't seem to be helping much does it.. and equally, "this person is not a true -insert religion here-" nonsense.

There is no absolute arbitrator of the correct interpretation of any religious text so if someone says they are christian or muslim who is anyone else to say they aren't.. and people who self identify as muslims, who believe they have justification to commit these horrible acts from their book exist, and then thats what they are.

@edward

We should all thank the USA and Obama for all the recent terrorist attack

Obama? No; we're now reaping what was sown by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Blair, with their illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq in 2003. I doubt you'd ever even heard of Obama in 2003.

So then the next option is sponsor ISIS

The US is sponsoring ISIS? Any evidence at all for that, or is it just what RT says?

Jimizo, Be careful about not making a Tu quote fallacy.

For most people living in the western world, or western influenced world the christian right has a far greater actual influence on their daily lives.

I for one have no issues calling out the issues I see with any religion, but I don't see the massive gap that someone with reasons to defend one over that others have, they stem from the same issues of bias confirmation, lack of sceptical thinking and analysis of ones own positions.

"For most people living in the western world, or western influenced world the christian right has a far greater actual influence on their daily lives."

I'm not so sure about that. I'm from the UK where the influence of dogmatic and intolerant Christianity is pretty minimal nowadays. I'd say the threat of Islamic terrorism ( the UK security services have uncovered and thwarted many jihadi plots ), scores killed on the London Underground, a soldier slaughtered on the streets of London in broad daylight, people marching in the streets calling for the death of cartoonists and novelists, hate preachers spreading violent ideas from mosques, attempts to limit freedom of speech etc...

For me, as a UK citizen, I think the issue of Islam poses a far greater problem than than Christianity. I have no time for either but it's pretty difficult to argue that most UK citizens are more concerned about Christianity at this moment in time.

Absolutely clueless. He inherited a destabilized middle east.

Actually, that's not true, Iraq was pretty much stable, Bush had already started a troop slow withdrawal, all he had to do was to keep and ensure the SOFA but he didn't.

Bush played a huge part in that by destroying a country that had not done anything to the US, but the region was already destabilized even before bush.

And now Obama will leave Trump with an even worse situation in the ME. You still have Assad in power and NOW a huge Russian presence in that region and Obama did nothing to thwart it. Obama and Merkel are cut from the same cloth. Merkel was out of her mind to allow so many refugees into the country on that massive scale without properly vetting them and the bad thing is, the people are tired of her and turning against her and rightfully so. It would take a miracle to happen if she were ever reelected. The German people deserve better.

Jimizo, Oh yeah fair point, I would actually count UK as fairly secular to begin with, so not so much interference.

Concerned.. totally, I hear you, I feel you, I travel a lot, I have been in the cafe in Sydney, I have been in the airport in Belgium and so on.

Islam proves itself. Nobody has to do anything to "defend" it... just defend against it.

Exactly.

Ellison in particular seems to live in a world where this book only teaches love and peace and anyone who disagrees is ignorant.

Attack the moderates promoting love and peace. That's a great idea.

The West must tackle islamic extremism at source: the Saudis, their Gulf allies, and their Big Oil and (if I may coin a term) Big War supporters.

While these are pouring billions annually into either promoting or supporting extremism, tackling the consequences downstream is nothing short of onanism.

However middle Eastern Immigranst do not tolerate western way of life and they want host nations to follow their way for avoiding poultry and alcohol.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, some ME immigrants want host nations to avoid pork (not poultry) and alcohol. And some white people are murderers, and some asian people do methamphetamine.

Declaring a whole group is X based on the fact that a few are X, is the definition of racism (or bigotry, in the case that the group is not a race).

"Ellison in particular seems to live in a world where this book only teaches love and peace and anyone who disagrees is ignorant."

"Attack the moderates promoting love and peace. That's a great idea."

You're missing the point. Moderates have to categorically disown the violence contained in the holy scriptures.

It's simple. Violence, butchery and attempted conquests in the name of religion are utterly disgraceful. It wasn't acceptable at the time of the prophet. It is, and was, always wrong. Call it out.

This is the important point. Making excuses for this, putting it in a historical context, attempting to muddy the waters on the scale of the violence isn't the way forward. What ISIS is doing has plenty of justification in the violent verses.

Declaring a whole group is X based on the fact that a few are X, is the definition of racism (or bigotry, in the case that the group is not a race).

Ok, fair enough, then Germany, Europe and the US should do EXTREME vetting and take their time with it, the Japan is doing it and at the same time, we should put EXTREME pressure on other Muslim countries to take in their fellow Muslim brothers and sisters instead of giving them a pass and relieving them of any responsibility to care for their own people.

Hmmm ...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=uk+%22survey+of+muslims%22

google news: uk "survey of muslims"

Apr 17, 2016 ... more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist ...

Apr 10, 2016 ... Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illeg ...

Apr 11, 2016 ... Poll: Nearly One Quarter of British Muslims Support Imposition of ...

Jun 24, 2015 ... Shock Poll: 51% of US Muslims Want Sharia; 25% Okay with with Violence Against Americans ...

Reading these comments, I notice that many people seem to blame everybody for these kinds of atrocities except the ones actually committing them and the one who shares a large part of the blame - Angela Merkel. I wonder how she sleeps at night knowing that she bears a large part of the responsibility for creating the conditions that enable these types of crimes? Does she have any conscience?

She who answered a humanitarian call to assist people in need, taken advantage of by extremists... hmm

And who isn't blaming the people involved, they made decisions, for whatever misguided reason to act.. but if we don't try look at the causes then what good is it talk about just them and not the issues that contributed to it.

@turbostat

I've seen some of these poll results. They are terrifying in some instances. There was another regarding telling police about a terrorist plot. That was appalling.

If I as an atheist wrote I thought homosexuality should be criminalised, I'd expect and deserve a flood of thumbs down along with comments regarding intolerance, bigotry and hatred.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone comments on your link regarding the view of homosexuality held by UK Muslims. I actually posted that poll result yesterday and nobody saw fit to comment on it.

jimizo, thoé polls reveal a shocking but inconvenient truth for those who like to charracterize the situation as the acts of a few muslims who are out of step with the rest of the muslim world. In fact, the truth is there is widespread support among ordinary muslims for these terrorist acts against the west.

Germany, Europe and the US should do EXTREME vetting

They already do - it takes over two years for refugee vetting.

thoé polls reveal a shocking but inconvenient truth for those who like to charracterize the situation as the acts of a few muslims who are out of step with the rest of the muslim world

They do no such thing. A tiny - tiny - minority of Muslims engage in terrorist acts, and those opinion polls (however sensationally or misleadingly they may be spun) don't constitute evidence otherwise. These acts are the acts of a few.

I'm not saying radical Islam isn't a problem - it clearly is. But the narrative you're pushing, that all Muslims are a problem, is not only not the solution, it actually makes the problem worse by feeding into the us vs them mentality of radical groups. Don't do their work for them.

I'm not saying radical Islam isn't a problem - it clearly is. But the narrative you're pushing, that all Muslims are a problem, is not only not the solution, it actually makes the problem worse by feeding into the us vs them mentality of radical groups. Don't do their work for them.

Bingo.

google news: uk "survey of muslims"

Turbo boost: quoting the Gatestone Institute (chairman John Bolton), a thinking man's Breitbart

jimizo, the polls reveal a shocking but inconvenient truth

Cognitive dissonance makes the strangest of bedfellows?

https://www.thenation.com/article/sugar-mama-anti-muslim-hate/

"A tiny - tiny - minority of Muslims engage in terrorist acts...."

Strictly true. But foot soldiers usually account for a minority in any movement. Each of the western European countries have thousands of Muslims on their terror watch lists, too many for countries like Belgium to monitor. The numbers of bad people simply outstrip the nation's resources.

What's more, significant numbers of Muslims are passive sympathizers, like from the surge of tweets of celebration seen in western Europe when Jihadi john decapitated the journalist. And some of the terrorists have received protection in large Muslim communities like Molenbeek and Beeston, where police struggle to get cooperation.

"those opinion polls (however sensationally or misleadingly they may be spun) don't constitute evidence otherwise."

Many of those polls are conducted by the world's most reputable public research firms, like ICM Research and Pew. Good research certainly does constitute evidence, even if it does contradict or upset the narrative you've decided to follow.

Don't do their work for them

Precisely.

When we create police states, Wahhabism wins.

When we erode civil liberties, Wahhabism wins.

When we let hate into our hearts, Wahhabism wins.

@sensenotsocommon

I thought you'd dismiss the poll results. An interesting aside on that was that one of the groups who questioned the results was the Muslim Council of Britain. That moderate organization was once headed by Sir Iqbal Sacranie, a man who once said that "death was too good" for Salman Rushdie.

It's quite interesting that the same organization accused the pollsters of focusing on the most conservative Muslims.

He inherited a destabilized middle east. Bush played a huge part in that by destroying a country that had not done anything to the US, but the region was already destabilized even before bush.

I'm pretty sure the Nobel peace winner did not do much to alleviate the expansion of these extremists. In fact it's under his watch that these vile worms were armed to the teeth all to satisfy the whims of saudi arabia and its ilk. Aren't you the least bit curious why obama almighty turned his back to the human atrocities in Yemen? Or the real people revolution in bahrain? Come on @strangerland, wake up!!!

I'm waiting for the next Jeremy Clarkson joke about truck drivers..

Strictly true. But foot soldiers usually account for a minority in any movement. Each of the western European countries have thousands of Muslims on their terror watch lists, too many for countries like Belgium to monitor. The numbers of bad people simply outstrip the nation's resources.

As someone else said, Islamic terrorism is a problem. But demonizing muslims feeds the problem, it doesn't help it. Terrorists are terrorists. Muslims are Muslims. They aren't equivalent.

Aren't you the least bit curious why obama almighty turned his back to the human atrocities in Yemen? Or the real people revolution in bahrain? Come on @strangerland, wake up!!!

Personally, I think the US should turn its back on the Middle East altogether. It has no right to be there, no one is asking them to be there, and their being there is probably the largest factor in inciting extremism in the Middle East.

Leave the vipers to themselves.

think the US should turn its back on the Middle East altogether.

I concur. Too bad it's in bed with the terrorist enablers. How does that old adage go? Money talks...

And some of the terrorists have received protection in large Muslim communities like Molenbeek and Beeston

I grew up a few miles from Beeston, and your statement is baloney. Beeston isnt remotely close to being a "large Muslim community"; it is overwhelmingly a white working class area. Have you ever even been to Leeds?

Many of those polls are conducted by the world's most reputable public research firms

And many of them are agenda-pushing non-research by drivelmongers like Breitbart.

Good research certainly does constitute evidence

Firstly, only if it's soundly conducted and reported (see above); secondly, I didn't say it wasn't evidence per se - I quite clearly said it wasn't evidence for the position Outrider was claiming. Again, whatever those polls say and however soundly or not they were conducted and however disengeniously they were spun (or not), they don't in any way constitute evidence us that terrorists are anything other than a tiny minority. To say that they do is unscientific, anti-factual, dishonest, and dangerous.

even if it does contradict or upset the narrative you've decided to follow

I'm not ignoring anything though, am I? I'm simply pointing out the flawed conclusions that some people jump to. You make a good point about contradiction of narratives; take the fact that many of the polls quoted above actually show things like Muslims reporting more pride in being British than the UK population at large, yet those quoting them are (of course) ignoring that side of them and choosing to fixate on the agenda-driven Breitbart quotes to push their chosen narratives.

@yoshitsune

"Beeston isnt remotely close to being a "large Muslim community"

Beeston is the hometown of the 7/7 bombers. They attended the local mosque. An Mi5 official has complained authorities received no cooperation from the Beeston "community." As a result, not a single person was convicted for the most deadliest violence on British soil since World War 2.

"terrorists are anything other than a tiny minority."

Naturally, you're ignoring all the failed plots. as well, not covered by your simplistic narrative. British authorities said a couple of years ago they uncovered 40, including the Transatlantic Plot, that involved hijacking 10 aircraft, 9/11 style but much bigger. The plotters are fine citizens of Birmingham.

The Germans arrested a kid over a week ago who attempted 2 Christmas market bombings. This list is a very long one, I can assure you. And it will grow much longer, I can assure you.

Jeff Lee, excellent post.

It appears that the terrorist was a Tunisian asylum seeker whose asylum claim had been denied, but who had been allowed to stay in Germany anyway. The original driver of the truck seems to had been beaten up before the accident, likely by the terrorist/terrorists. The police shot and killed this man, who, as of now, appears to have been innocent.

I doubt Merkel will win a fourth term. Brexit, Trump, and then Merkel shown the door, but probably a few years to late.

I thought you'd dismiss the poll results

I'm very surprised you'd entertain - never mind trust - anything associated with John Bolton, Jimizo.

Your experience of organised religion has obviously been an unhappy one, and your mileage with muslims and Islam in particular very different to what I have had the great privilege to experience on three continents.

I hope you find the peace you seek.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, some ME immigrants want host nations to avoid pork (not poultry) and alcohol. And some white people are murderers, and some asian people do methamphetamine.

This comment is more ridiculous and biased. There is ME immigrants also want to avoid Turkey (poultry) for not offending their Muslim brotherhood nation known as Turkey too. White people murdered others individually for racical hatred, short temper and veganance for frauds.

There were no mass murder from individuals for religious ideology with screaming Allalh hu Akaba. No state sponsored atrocities like Sunni Saudi supplying weapons to terrorists with sectarian war against different sect. Iran is sponsoring Shia sect against Syria. US messed ME with hunger for oil. Not because it want to convert ME with new religion. Even US saved Muslim Albanians being genocided by Christian Serbia.

No Muslim celebrations such as Ramadan have been blood sheded by non believers Non believers have never killed piligrams who have make holy trip to Mecca. Non believers has not cut the throats of Muslim priests like terrorists. French old priest has been halahed by IS.. Not only in Germany but also Indonesia and India are cracking down on terrorists during this festive season.

Asian drug traffikers killed customers indirectly. No Asian screaming Buddha is great and slaughtering non believers. This terrorists will kill non believers anyway regardless of any excuses and begging for mercy. At least White and Asians have no extreme ideology for stamping out non believers for creating Calphate.

Jeff,

Beeston is the hometown of the 7/7 bombers. They attended the local mosque

I'm well aware of that. The facts are correct, but your conclusion totally illogical and not fact based. Beeston is a white working class area, you just took a couple of facts and then jumped to a nonsense claim with them. Doubling down doesn't hide the fact that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Leeds and Beeston. I'm from there; I have actual memories of the swarms of armed police, closed roads, reporters, helicopters overhead, etc. But just as an IRA bomb in Manchester didn't make me irrationally fear all Irish or all Catholics or all white people, a handful of suicide bombers from Leeds doesn't make me irrationally conclude that all Muslims are terrorists to be feared. Yet that is your apparent logic. Again, your post is baloney.

not a single person was convicted for the most deadliest violence on British soil since World War 2

Because they blew themselves up genius.

Outrider,

It is you ignoring facts. The most difficult for you to explain is why you're so scared of all Muslims when in fact the Muslim population is over a billion, and the number carrying out terrorist attacks is <0.01% of that. My "delusional narrative" .is evidence based; yours is spin based.

I love how people focusing on the Muslims instead of focusing on the IDEOLOGY that inspires terrorist acts Islamists adhere to. Focus on the ideology, and you're pulling the weed out by the roots, instead of just looking at the leaves, while the weed still grows.

"Your experience of organised religion has obviously been an unhappy one, and your mileage with muslims and Islam in particular very different to what I have had the great privilege to experience on three continents."

Erm, not a bad personal experience of organized religion. I was always brought up to dislike divisive ideas - my mother came from Ireland and hated the sectarian nonsense which disfigured that country. No need for it. Creating division, stoking hatred and justifying intolerance are evils Europe has done quite a lot to get over.

Here we go again. Tragic in my opinion.

The German police are now looking for a new suspect, 'Anis A' from Tunisia. They found his identity card under the seat. Nothing seems to get past the German police.

On the wider question of Islam, the rather obvious point that 99.9%+ of Muslims are not involved in terror fails to address whether the benefits we derive from the 99.9%+ outweigh the risks associated with the -0.01%. This is the key calculation we need to make when it comes to allowing or restricting more Islamic immigration. Looking at it in any other way is just playing a meaningless numbers game. I could equally point out that most counterfeit electronics from China don't burst into flames, or that most drug addicts don't burglarize homes, or that most plane crashes are survivable, or that most pedophiles never molest children, but none of these raw statistics helps weigh the risks and rewards involved. Those who support more Islamic immigration should be talking about the tremendous art, music, food, culture, education, skills, and wealth that Islamic immigrants bring to western societies, if that is actually true. Unfortunately, the rewards seem rather minimal compared to the obvious risks.

my mother came from Ireland and hated the sectarian nonsense which disfigured that country

I lost friends to it, frequently feared for my own life because of it, and once got beaten up by my coreligionists for being the other sort. This is why I cannot rationalize religious or any other sort of prejudice.

Creating division, stoking hatred and justifying intolerance are evils Europe has done quite a lot to get over.

Precisely, Jimizo. Yet your experience with muslims seems to have left you very intolerant of them as a group. Yesterday's Bronze Age slur was a bit much, n'est-ce pas?

"Precisely, Jimizo. Yet your experience with muslims seems to have left you very intolerant of them as a group. Yesterday's Bronze Age slur was a bit much, n'est-ce pas?"

Why is it a slur? This religion comes from a very different time and a very different moral universe. The idea that a 1,400-year-old book should be taken as a moral guide to live in 21st century Europe is terrifying. I'd say the same thing about the Old Testament which is actually even worse but thankfully isn't taken by most Jews or Christians to be the perfect word of the creator.

I just don't see Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or members of other faiths committing atrocities in the name of their faith in 21st century Europe. I don't see them calling for the death of those who insult their faith or call for blasphemy laws. To take a look at the moderates, I don't hear 'moderate' leaders of these faiths saying 'death is too good' for someone who offends them.

I think you get my view that I dislike the divisions caused by organized religion. I think that Islam is the most dangerous of all religions at this moment in time in Europe. Am I wrong to think this way?

Jimizo: It'll be interesting to see if anyone comments on your link regarding the view of homosexuality held by UK Muslims. I actually posted that poll result yesterday and nobody saw fit to comment on it.

There's only three hits for 'homosexuality' on this page, all yours or mine, so I guess not :(.

Maybe it's the "First they came ..." thing. Their oxen not being gored ...

SenseNotSoCommon: Turbo boost: quoting the Gatestone Institute (chairman John Bolton), a thinking man's Breitbart

It's not a Gateway Institute / John Bolton poll, it's a survey conducted by ICM for Channel 4, "a British public-service television broadcaster ... owned and operated by Channel Four Television Corporation, a public corporation of the Department for Culture, Media & Sport".

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

... The survey was conducted by ICM Research for the Channel 4 documentary, "What British Muslims Really Think," which aired on April 13. ... Some British Muslims have rejected the conclusions of the survey, which they say uses a flawed methodology because it was conducted in areas where Muslims make up more than 20% of the population, compared to 5.5% overall. They say the survey results are skewed because they are indicative of Muslims in these areas and not of British Muslims as a whole. ...In an interview with CNN, however, ICM Director Martin Boon said that more than half of all British Muslims live in areas that are more than 20% Muslim and that the survey findings are sound. "In my view, this is the most rigorous survey of Muslims outside of the largest and most expensive surveys conducted by the UK government," Boon said. ... The president of the British Polling Council, John Curtice, told CNN that ICM had followed standard methods of polling ethnic minorities in the UK. ... Unlike many other surveys of Muslim opinion, which have usually been conducted by telephone or online, ICM used face-to-face, in-home research to question a representative sample of 1,081 Muslims across Britain. ...

@jimizo. "Am I wrong to think this way?" I don't think so. I think you're spot on.

They already do - it takes over two years for refugee vetting.

Yeah, that's why Merkel is suffering a huge backlash politically and Hillary lost because of their so called extreme vetting. Can't wait until 1/20/17 I think the lefts extreme vetting is allowing anyone to come in. I prefer Trump's and German's right as well as Japan's version of vetting better.

The Germans arrested a kid over a week ago who attempted 2 Christmas market bombings. This list is a very long one, I can assure you. And it will grow much longer, I can assure you.

Without a doubt and the cries from the far right is growing stronger each and every single day.

Yeah, that's why Merkel is suffering a huge backlash politically and Hillary lost because of their so called extreme vetting. Can't wait until 1/20/17 I think the lefts extreme vetting is allowing anyone to come in. I prefer Trump's and German's right as well as Japan's version of vetting better.

Logic failure.

bass: Hillary lost because of their so called extreme vetting. Can't wait until 1/20/17 I think the lefts extreme vetting is allowing anyone to come in.

This is the hardest stuff to counter. Just no basis in truth, and there are a dozen more like him lined up for the GOP.

To others out there, you should know that there is vetting. You can read about it if you search online. When you hear a far right winger say that liberals want to let anyone in, or that there is no vetting, he is distributing false information. The only way you can counter the void the GOP is creating is to educate yourself and seek out information instead of just receiving it.

This is the hardest stuff to counter. Just no basis in truth, and there are a dozen more like him lined up for the GOP.

Uh-huh...well, apparently the vast majority of Americans didn't think so.

To others out there, you should know that there is vetting.

There is vetting and then, there is VETTING. I am hoping and praying Trump institutes his version of extreme vetting and not the BS Obama/Merkel version of vetting.

You can read about it if you search online. When you hear a far right winger say that liberals want to let anyone in, or that there is no vetting, he is distributing false information.

By the way, where is the attacker? Why did they lose him? All these people from Albania, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria and allowing about a million in, a person would have to be the dumbest on the planet to think that Merkel and her policies properly allowed for detailed and secure vetting, pure none sense, not to mention impossible.

The only way you can counter the void the GOP is creating is to educate yourself and seek out information instead of just receiving it.

As if that would keep you safe. I know the Germans, they are not a cold society. They are generally a fair and tolerant society, but like every other nation, the people have some deeply legitimate concerns and have the absolute right to demand more vetting and a limit to the massive influx of immigrations being pushed into the country. The Germans didn't do anything to deserve this. A large portion of these immigrants refuse to assimilate and none of the Muslim nations give a wink! Every one of the Muslim nations should be first and foremost in the frontline and do whatever they can to help their fellow brethren, the burden shouldn't fall on Germany or Europe and the entire West for that matter.

This is the hardest stuff to counter. Just no basis in truth, and there are a dozen more like him lined up for the GOP.

To others out there, you should know that there is vetting. You can read about it if you search online.

Generally the people who get off on Trump aren't interested in the truth or the reality. They are angry, and they are looking for people who give them targets to be angry at, and things to be angry about. They enjoy the satisfaction of having these targets more than they are concerned with the actual truth behind what they are angry about. It feels better to hate, because supposedly refugees are not being properly vetted, than it does to find out that the actual vetting process exists and is pretty thorough. Look at Bass' comment for a clear example of this:

Uh-huh...well, apparently the vast majority of Americans didn't think so.

His rebuttal isn't based on the facts of what is actually happening, it is based on people's feelings of anger.

This is why Trump won. Not because of truths in realities, but because he made people feel better about being angry.

Why is it a slur?

Because the end of the Bronze Age in the Middle East predates Islam by 1,800 years?

I think that Islam is the most dangerous of all religions at this moment in time in Europe.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and all the other isms and schisms designed to divide us and keep us frightened and in our place leave a lot to be desired.

But attacking people for their belief systems only strengthens their beliefs, in my firsthand experience.

It'll be a tough few years of intolerance in many quarters. It will pass, however, and humanity will prevail.

Have a great Christmas, Jimizo

"I think that Islam is the most dangerous of all religions at this moment in time in Europe."

"Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and all the other isms and schisms designed to divide us and keep us frightened and in our place leave a lot to be desired."

Yes, but my point is of those religions, Islam poses a far greater threat to the safety of European citizens at this moment in time.

Surely you are not denying this? You seem to be saying we shouldn't point this out for fear that the followers of the religion of peace, of which you speak so warmly, may become, what shall we say.....not altogether peaceful? You seem to be calling these people intolerant.

Are there any other religious groups we shouldn't be honest about for fear of violent consequences?

Generally the people who get off on Trump aren't interested in the truth or the reality.

That was said two years ago about Trump's demise and well, once again, the liberals were wrong, nothing unusual.

Wow! Trump won, ipso facto everything he said was true.

Popcorn at the ready for the wooden nickels trickle-down effect.

"That was said two years ago about Trump's demise and well, once again, the liberals were wrong, nothing unusual."

The liberals were wrong about Trump's demise while you were calling Trump supporters a lunatic fringe.

Oh, sorry. You were calling Trump supporters a lunatic fringe far more recently than two years ago.

@yoshitsune

"Because they blew themselves up genius."

Do your homework, "genius." 4 people were arrested, three were released. The other was convicted on a charge unrelated to 7./7. The investigators blamed their inability to get 7/7 convictions to a lack of evidence due in turn to a lack of cooperation from bombers' local "community."

It doesn't take a "genius" to blow a hole right thru your arguments.

Oh, sorry. You were calling Trump supporters a lunatic fringe far more recently than two years ago.

I can admit I was wrong, something liberals astonishing cannot seem to do.

It doesn't take a "genius" to blow a hole right thru your arguments

My argument is that your statement about Beeston being a Muslim community is baloney, and have completely failed to blow any holes in that argument. Beeston is white working class; just admit that you don't know very much at all about Leeds and stop making stuff up about it in order to demonise Muslims, and if you're not big enough to do that I suggest you just stop talking about a place you know so little about.

As for the arrests you mention; what is your source for saying the lack of evidence was a result of lack of cooperation from their community? The lack of CCTV footage in London, for example, can't really be blamed on Muslims in Leeds, can it?

Obama's approval ratings are heading towards 60%

That's driven by a media almost entirely compliant and willing to push his hagiographic self-narrative. 'The day the seas parted ...'

How about 'JV' ISIS? Or Libya and Syria? Or the drop in the labor participation rate on Obama's watch? Or that the percentage of young adults living with their parents has hit a 75-year high?

If a Republican administration was in place, the media would be hammering them on these, especially the first three. I guess some of that is due to the media suppression of negative HRC stories, still, how does that let Obama off the hook? She was his SOS!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4056874/Almost-40-cent-young-adults-living-parents-hitting-75-year-high-America.html

California, New York and Mass. don't count in the electoral college vote which he won 307 to Hillary's 163

No, but we aren't talking about the electoral college. We are talking about your claim that 'Trump's win was a clear repudiation of what Obama stood for' - but due to the fact that Trump was clearly not the choice of the American people (he was only the choice of the electoral college), your claim is proven false, as the American people clearly chose Obama's policies over Trump's.

It sure as heck wasn't a Hillary, NOT even close.

Well you're right that it wasn't close, but you got it backwards. Hillary got 2.7 million more votes than Trump - which means it clearly WAS Hillary, and not even close for Trump.

It's very clear that the people like Obama's policies.

Then Trump would never have made it to the presidency. Hillary would have stormed over him, that didn't happen.

Your logic doesn't follow. Trump will be president due to getting more votes from the electoral college. However, the electoral college doesn't vote based on the will of the people, if it did, it would have chosen Hillary, who was clearly the choice of the American people, by virtue of the fact that she got 2.7 million more votes than Trump. If the president were chosen by the will of the people, then Hillary would have indeed stormed over him - she got 2.7 million more votes than he did. So looking at the will of the people, which is shown by the number of people who voted for one candidate over the other, it's very clear that the people do like Obama's policies, and that Trump only became president through the non-democratic structuring of the electoral college (which is fair, since the rules were laid out before the election).

It's very clear that they like what Obama stands for.

I'm sure his supporters did

Yes, and his supporters numbered 2.7 million more than Trump's supporters - therefore his supporters can be considered as the will of the American people, whereas Trump's supporters cannot.

It's very clear that they do not like what Trump stands for.

His supporters wouldn't

Yes, and his supporters numbered 2.7 million more than Trump's supporters - therefore his supporters can be considered as the will of the American people, whereas Trump's supporters cannot.

Ah, so Obama's high approval rating is....illegitimate. But if a Republican hits that number then it's because he deserved it. And then something about the media and living with your parents.

No mental gymnastics there.