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Israel rejects 48-hour halt to Gaza assault

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Well, well, well. A ceasefire. Then what? A continued blockade by Israel of the Gaza strip? No medical aid allowed in? Continued control of the air space over Gaza? Continued control of the sea around Gaza? Continued Israeli control of the borders? Continued military aid and technology from the USA? Continued Israeli nuclear weaponry research? The situation in Gaza is the worst it has been since the Israeli occupation of 1967.

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You seem to have missed the point Butta, will Hamas stop firing rockets during this ceasefire? The Palestinians are suffering, but Hamas is one of the causes. Thank you for keeping selective issues up front instead of the various causes for the current problem. sheesh.

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Hamas apologists baffle me. They think that firing thousands of rockets into civilian areas in Israel shouldn't led to a response, get mad when the response is a closure of the border, and then use the "blockade" to justify more rockets at Israel, all the while ignoring the fact that Egypt is doing the exact same thing on their Gaza border.

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"The situation in Gaza is the worst it has been since the Israeli occupation of 1967"

Who's been in charge of Gaza recently?

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No kidding Shiuu. Egypt said "to hell with Hamas", and some folks still like trying to make it into a pity party.

Some folks know how to play with PR to the hilt, and as usual, the easily impressed fall for it while claiming that they're not.

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Notice how it's because of international pressure? Good. Israel needs to call this off, and the only way they're going to do it so through said pressure. Sadly, I don't believe Hamas is going to stop the rocket attacks. I DO think they could easily do so, and should, for the 48 hour cease-fire, but unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant thugs in Hamas.

In the long run, which is to say if Israel decides, again through international pressure, that they will stop the attack, Hamas will fire more rockets in there so long as Israel keeps up the illegal blockade. They really have no choice. As it stands it's: "Die from the blockade, or die from Israeli bombs". If Israel REALLY wants to move towards peace they can lift the blockade and move away from Gaza. IF, and I mean 'if' because I don't think they would, that is done Hamas would cease all major aggression.

And what's the US doing there anyway? Did they go to hold Israel's hand while the rest of the world rightly puts pressure on them because of the overreaction??

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Smith, do you not get it. Isreal moves the blockade, Egypt doesn't remove their blockade. Hamas says, "Hey, they moved the blockade so we can get better positions and strike deeper into Israel."

Israel isn't going to make things worse for themselves. Would you move your intestine over so a thug can reach your kidneys better with their knife?

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"Israel needs to call this off"

Hamas needs to call this off.

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our usual leftists are having a harder time deconstructing reality as they go about attempting to justify Hamas insanity.

i would think all would be in agreement that it is never okay to target innocents yet according a dumb canuk or two, Hamas is completely justified and expects Israel to back off so Hamas can kill more Israeli civilians which in turn means more death and destruction on their side. The only word to describe that mentality is "idiotic".

there are so many lies about the origin of this conflict it isn't even worth bothering about anymore. what matters is that those that claim to represent the palestinian people stop the violence and begin finding a peaceful solution to coexist with Israel. It is in neither Israel's or the Palestinian's self interest for this conflict to continue. Things will only getter better once the Palestinians quit serving as pawns for Iran and Syria.

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Israel should only end the Gaza assault when all rocket attacks by Hamas into Israel have ended. Otherwise, they need to continue their offensive and finish the job.

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Shin Bet, Israeli security agency, created Hamas to get rid of the more secular PLO in the hopes of Hoodwinking the US by turning it into a religious war. Even the US would not sit by while Israel killed refugees but it is a different story if they are killing "Islamists." If the people of southern Israel are angry at having glorified bottle rockets launched at them, while then they should be pissed at their own government for helping to create and FUND the beginning of Hamas.

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Israel will do as told and STOP the killing of innocent people. Go after the criminals and fighter, sure; Mossad must know 'who' 'where' and 'when', so cease the collective punishment and pin point the 'justice' your dropping from above.

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That's not what Gershon Shafir, an Israeli historian (based in the USA) thinks in his post "War Without End," a refreshing read because it's not aimed at straw men like "Hamas apologists" or "usual leftists":

At a strategic level, Hamas is not interested in political alternatives to armed confrontation. But whether one wants to call the Hamas strategy resistance or terrorism, the lack of a serious political plan to accompany military strategies is always counterproductive, as it is has been for Hamas and for the people of Gaza.

It will be equally counterproductive for Israel. It appears that Israeli political leaders and military planners labor under the illusion that there is a military “solution” to Hamas. The extended military operation in Gaza is expected to serve as a pedagogical tool for moderating or eliminating Hamas. But this will not work, and the idea that a ground invasion of Gaza could actually eliminate Hamas as a force in Palestinian politics is delusional. The Israeli approach is every bit as driven by militarism as Hamas’ strategy is. Beyond a certain point, it can serve no realistic political goals.

http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2008/12/war-without-end-gershon-shafir.html

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"...there are so many lies about the origin of this conflict it isn't even worth bothering about anymore."

And yet VOR of course knows the truth while the whole world is wrong. VOR, pull your head out of the sand. I'd like to know why it is that this is up to Palestine ALONE to solve, and according to you guys peace has absolutely no business in the peace process except to agree to some form of begging and self-slaughter.

The hypocrisy of you guys on here is absolutely astounding. You decry the 4 deaths by Hamas rockets, and yet cheer on the nearly 400 deaths (and counting!) by Israel! You bemoan the atrocities and so-called 'terrorism' committed by Palestinians, and yet counter any claims to such on Israel as being 'collateral damage in war-time', etc. You ask if the children of Israel are less important than the children of Palestine, and when told 'no' by everyone you look for other excuses to stick up for the greater aggressor of the two parties.

Let me spell it out for you guys again: I, and I'm sure all the other 'lefty-pacifist-canuk-socialist-cheerleaders' or whatever other childish rants you guys come up with, am NOT for what Hamas is doing. Go back a few days ago to when Hamas began again lobbing mortars and firing rockets into Israel and you'll see us calling them 'idiots', etc. BUT, that does not mean we are automatically for Israel. And calling Israel's response disproportionate likewise does not mean we are for Hamas or the Palestinians.

Yes, many of us, and that's clear world-wide, my friend, are against the illegal blockade (according the UN, and yet you guys cry that we don't recognize the UN declaration of Israel as a nation, which we do!). Many of us also feel that what Hamas is doing is BECAUSE of said blockade. Does that mean we are for it? Not at all, and particularly because we follow it by stating that if Israel were to remove the illegal blockade the violence would stop.

What's more, you guys just hate, and cannot answer, the fact that the Palestinians have at least once in the last few days offered a cease-fire agreement -- in otherwords an end to the violence -- which Israel outright objected to as they prepare for a ground assault. Instead you ask, "Why don't the Palestinians put down their weapons and ask for peace?" when the deal they offered has been mentioned again and again.

The conflict continues because Israel wishes it to, bottom line. While the rest of the world is pressuring Israel to stop the disproportionate and therefore unjust retaliation and take up a cease-fire agreement, only the US can keep quiet and sanction the slaughter.

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Errr.. that should read 'Israel has absolutely no place in the peace process...' in the first paragraph, not 'peace has no place in the peace process'. My apologies.

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Helter: "Israel should only end the Gaza assault when all rocket attacks by Hamas into Israel have ended."

While I agree, in part, during the last of such cease fire agreements on both sides, Israel killed more than 49 Palestinians with no provocation, and kept up the blockade resulting in the deaths of who-knows-how-many-more, which is why Hamas started it up again.

What they SHOULD do is cease fire for a few days, and if no more rockets are fired, slowly start lifting the blockade and allowing more support to get in. If the rockets still continue to not be fired, lift the blockade further, and so on.

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smith, for your information the whole world does not subscribe to your point of view. On one hand rational people see this conflict for what it is, an undeclared war on Israel. Those that lack common sense or who kowtow to some really despicable people out of fear for their own safety find a way to justify the killing of innocents.

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VOR: "Those that lack common sense or who kowtow to some really despicable people out of fear for their own safety find a way to justify the killing of innocents. "

So in other words, the US's treatment of Israel. Again, the hypocrisy is astounding.

Oh, and if the world doesn't share my point of view, how about the: "Israel, under international pressure, is considering a 48-hour halt to its punishing four-day air campaign on Hamas targets in Gaza to see if Palestinian militants will stop their rocket attacks on southern Israel, Israeli officials said Tuesday."

I realize that you guys sometimes think the US is above the rest of the world in many respects, and is certainly not included in the international pressure in this case, since they are kowtowing to the really despicable Israeli counter-attacks and depend on Israel for cash-for-weapons sales, but beyond that they are protesting around the world, my friend. Hell, even in Japan they are standing up and protesting at the Israeli Embassy.

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Are they fighting forever until all dead? It seems no one can make peace there. Is that destiny?

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USARonin: "SmithinJapan, you can comment on anything you want; I'm just sayin' your posts show you to be a classic Americaphobe."

Which makes you, what, a Britaino-Canada-Australia-phobe? No, I don't honestly believe you are afraid of those countries; you just like to use their nationals as an attempt to reason why they couldn't possibly be correct if they don't agree with you.

yes, I argue quite a lot against the policies of the US, in particular those under GWB, but I pretty much always state why I think so and when possible back it up with factual evidence. For you it's simply, "Ah, typical response from the lefty-pacifist pro-Islamo fundamentalist socialist....", with absolutely nothing aside to contribute to the thread. Look at your post now, you STILL can't comment on the thread but insist on bringing your nationality into the fray, and mine, to keep from confronting the actual issue! You then take the immature route even further by saying things like:

"If a person comes from a socialist nation as Japan or England it's intellectually honest to be open about it when they attack a capitalistic nation on their economy as, let's say... America"

You can't even start a conversation about other nations without using diminutives and suggesting the USA is automatically better, with nothing to back it up. Makes your subjectivity obvious and the arguments invalid.

"Why would it be unfair of me to ask them to rethink their positions based on the conditions in their own countrys?"

'Unfair' has nothing do with it; 'illogical' is more like it, and yes, it would be. I can just see the conversation, taking place at a pub:

USARonin: Beer please, but no socialist swill. I want a Coors Light.

Other: Hey, friend, can I sit here?

USARonin: Sure, why not.

Other: Well, cheers... Happy New Year!

USARonin: 'Cheers'? You a socialist-Brit er sumthin'?

Other: Ummm... no.

USARonin: Phew! Well, what do you think about what's going on in the Gaza strip?

Other: I think it's horrible.

USARonin: Amen to that! But hopefully the Israelis will put a stop to the Hamas terrorists.

Other: Well, actually, I think BOTH sides are to blame.

USARonin: What?! Are you a pro-Islamo-fascist Canukistani?

Other: What?

USARonin: You know... a non-American patriot?

Other: I'm an English, actually.

USARonin: Ah, one o' them Socialists! Well, no wonder you're wrong!

Anyway, you catch my point. You would ask for someone's opinion so long as they agreed with you, and when they didn't you would simply say it's because of where they are from. It it's an American who disagrees with you they are a non-patriot socialist, or simply a terrorist.

Your way of thinking has been what has caused this conflict in and ensured it has plenty of fuel to keep burning. It's sad, really, to watch the denial. Fortunately, I have a lot of American friends who agree that the situation in Israel is more complicated than 'with Israel or with the terrorists', so I have proof to back up my knowledge that not all Americans are plagued with whatever illness you have, based simply on being American. No, it's a way of thinking shared by a number of people world-wide. Fortunately, it's a small number. UNfortunately only a small number of like-minded fools are need to keep hate running and wars a-brewing.

I'm against war, flat out. You cannot even say the same, and yet you pretend it is me bringing out hatred in people. Bizarre thinking at best.

Once again I challenge you to get back on topic and stop making nationality an issue. If honestly believe that I can post freely, as you, kindly, say I can, then stop trying to say that my being Canadian means I cannot know what's going on. I happen to clearly know more about the situation than you do, and am more objective about it, but nowhere do I indicate it's because you are American. Biased and illogical you may be, but not because you are from the States.

Keep fightin' the good fight, my friend, and try to stick to the subject.

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okay thanks smith for pointing out my hypocrisy while you completely ignore your own. i suppose that is appropriate for any conversation regarding the future (or lack of one) of the Palestinian people.

You can continue to blame Israel for defending itself if you wish but it still doesn't change the fact that the only way the lives of the Palestinian people will improve is when they recognize they are being used by their Muslim brothers to fight the Israelis in a proxy war and begin to find a peaceful solution to coexist on the same plot of land.

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VOR: "You can continue to blame Israel for defending itself..."

I DON'T blame Israel for 'defending itself', I blame Israel for using extremely excessive force in order to do so. You don't need a tonne of TNT to kill a mosquito, my friend, and the potential threat from one household using said TNT to the surrounding area is justification enough for the neighbours to be concerned and upset.

"...it still doesn't change the fact that the only way the lives of the Palestinian people will improve is when they recognize they are being used by their Muslim brothers to fight the Israelis in a proxy war and begin to find a peaceful solution to coexist on the same plot of land."

I agree that nothing is going to change until a peaceful solution is found. That's a given. But the idea that it's entirely one-sided is ludicrous. It takes two to tango, whether it's the fighting or the kissing and making up. There's no peace process with only one of the two nations involved, and like it or not, Israel must also take some steps towards peace, warranted or not.

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smithinjapan: Sadly, I don't believe Hamas is going to stop the rocket attacks.

and then...

smithinjapan: If Israel REALLY wants to move towards peace they can lift the blockade and move away from Gaza

But therein lies the problem. In one sentence you say that you believe Hamas will not stop attacking. And in the next you say the solution would be for Israel to lift the blockade and move away from Gaza. In the end your two points are saying that Hamas will continue to attack and they should be given more of a free reign to carry out such attacks.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that Israel should release pressure...but....only AFTER Hamas shows that they can stop the attacks. Any concessions given to Hamas while they are attacking is simply Israel making it easier for Hamas to kill them, something we both know they can't do.

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The Hamas charter states:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

Really puts in a tight spot those who blame Israel, those who claim religion is unrelated to the hostilities, and those who insist that Islam is by and large a peaceful religion, and that jihad is misunderstood by "Islamophobes".

I do enjoy watching them squirm.

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Israel's numerous steps toward peace have only resulted in more dead Israelis. None of the concessions have reduced Hamas penchant for Israeli blood. Until Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist any concessions offered by Israel are meaningless. Hama's will not because they want Israel gone. The Palestinians can't because Iran and Syria won't let them.

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smithinjapan: What they SHOULD do is cease fire for a few days, and if no more rockets are fired, slowly start lifting the blockade and allowing more support to get in. If the rockets still continue to not be fired, lift the blockade further, and so on.

During the cease fire the number of rockets were reduced (but not eliminated) and Israel allowed supplies into Gaza (although never fully opened up the borders). You're saying above that Hamas should stop firing rockets and Israel should slowly remove the blockade, but it seems to me you don't understand that that's what was happening over the last 6 months. Also, don't you remember the hundreds of prisoners Israel released during the cease fire? It seemed that things were heading in the right direction.

The cease fire expired and the militants started sending rockets into Israel again. That's the response that is causing the entire world to scratch their heads.

The cease fire was just that...a cease fire. Hamas was to stop rocket attacks and Israel was supposed to stop military campaigns in Gaza. That was the deal. It was supposed to create the conditions for which the borders could be reopened and Israel could possibly get their kidnapped soldier back. But it wasn't something where Israel was supposed to open the borders on Day 1 and Hamas was supposed to return Schlit.

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Sorry, the soldier's name is Shalit, not Schlit.

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Israel 48 hours ceasefire is not enough. You must give back all the land you stole and pay Billions in compensation , also destroy your illegal nuclear weapons.

Israel started this slaughter, make them pay. How many people like me have been reduced to tears by seeing on telly the evil deads of the Israeli army?

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"Israel, under international pressure, is considering a 48-hour halt to its punishing four-day air campaign on Hamas targets in Gaza..."

I guess by international pressure they are referring to things like the fire-bombing and storming of the British Embassy in Teheran yesterday - an act of war, by the way - carried out by "students" who, we are supposed to believe, did this against the wishes of their president, who has only recently returned from lecturing the infidels in England.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//081230/ids_photos_wl/r1679967614.jpg/

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Some peopel will always be on Israels side , even though you can see on TV the truth.

I believe a ceasdefire is not enough. A massive Nato force should invade Israel and take all their weapons away for ever and ever. 48 hours cannot bring back lives of all the innocents.

Israel , why do you hate life?

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So, surrender once again. Of course, after such a "ceasefire", Israel can not resume the action against Hamas. So, Hamas once again wins the propaganda war, and comes out stronger in the end. I hate to say Deja Vu...

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kwatt:

" Are they fighting forever until all dead? It seems no one can make peace there. Is that destiny? "

Read the Hamas charter. Hamas will fight until the Zionist entity, aka Israel, is destroyed. So no, there is no way to make "peace" there, not the way we understand the word.

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if the USA, Israel and everybody would stop the flow of monies to Hamas (and the Palestinians) you wouldn't have 90% of this problem. When you keep sending money to Terrorists you can expect terror and impoverishment of the local people.

Arafat was worth billions while the Palestinians starved, died or fled. Same for many African countries or NK. Why do liberals support such causes.

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Israel should NOT stop till all these bastards are waving white flags out of their asses! Palestinians belongs in Jordan or under Jordanian surveillance ,they can choose Jordan or Egypt. Israel should not give up any more of its territory we saw what happens when they do. besides it is small as it is already.

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To start with, we shouldn’t forget that the victim is the Palestinians who lost their territory, not only because of the creation of the state of Israel, but also by the illegal occupation of their land by the expansionism of the Israeli Zionist government.

Palestinians have all the right to retaliate the invaders. As long as Israel doesn’t withdraws from all of the occupied territory and stop their politic of expansionism, this conflict will never end.

You should expect to be attacked when you go into neighbour’s house and stay by force. You need to stop the provocation first.

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What a great laugh indeed. Mister Harold i would vulgarly suggest you to read some History and facts before talking so much rubbish and all at once.

FromEurope sounds like a typical Muslim who TOOK Over Europe rather then a European persona.

The so called Palestinians have no right over the land of Israel what so ever ,they may have the right of a minority who have been lost during (several) violent resistance and lost again and again and again. While the so called Palestinians could have in any given time leave Israel and return to their homelands (Egypt and Jordan) Israel should be dealing first of all with securing its borders and keep its civilians safe and sound. The Palestinians in Gaza should surrounded and accept all the stipulation stated by Israel. regarding Israel withdraws...well they did it doesn't matter how many territories were evacuated the result of this stupid step are well shown; miserable mistake.

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SuperLib: "But therein lies the problem. In one sentence you say that you believe Hamas will not stop attacking. And in the next you say the solution would be for Israel to lift the blockade and move away from Gaza. In the end your two points are saying that Hamas will continue to attack and they should be given more of a free reign to carry out such attacks."

You're a step up from adamantine and USARonin in word twisting, but word twisting and drawing invalid conclusions it still is. In one of my posts where I talked earlier about how I felt that, sadly, Hamas will not stop firing rockets I said it was because of the blockade. In another if I said that if that blockade were (also) lifted (as in, as well as the ceasefire) the rockets would cease. You cannot simply cut the beginning from one post and the end from a second and draw your own conclusions thereby. What's more, making the same arguments in an earlier thread today I posted that I believe Hamas as a government would stop firing the rockets altogether if the Israeli army both ceased attacks and lifted the blockade, but that it's possible some individual thugs would lob mortar rounds or fire rockets. Again, you cannot draw your own conclusions without looking at the entire post. It would be like me taking the beginning of a line in one post where you say:

1) "I like George Bush.... " and then taking the end of another comment where you say:

2) "... it's terrible what's happening in the ME." and make three:

3) "I like the terrible things that are happening in the ME".

See how the syllogisms work? I didn't take into account your entire comments and instead took snippets to summarize my own thoughts towards what you have to say.

Now on the more rational portions of your comment, I agree that Hamas needs to do more, and I am NOT talking about Israel suddenly flinging open all the gates to the country and handing Hamas the keys. I'm talking about letting in more humanitarian aid in exchange for extending the cease fire at the VERY least. If that goes well then more steps towards peace can be made.

As it is, things are clearly not headed in the right direction, and it's up to BOTH parties to look to resolving it.

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The 48 hour ceasefire "consideration" is merely a ploy because of the upset it will cause during New Year festivities.

Gawd, the Israelis have proven time after time that they are the terrorists of the region.

How many have they killed this week alone? I rest my case!

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OH what a surprise to us well informed fellows. Israel rejects even 48 hours of peace.

The wickedness of the Israeli government it truely beyond belief.

If i was not more level headed and rational, i would imagine the Israelis are actually enjoying this widespread slaughter.

Gawd, how many more poor innocents will die whilst the rets of us celebrate the arrival of the new year, because of Israel?

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Well, didn't take long for Israelis to once again ignore the world and continue the assault it was dying to do anyway. The count is now 100 Palestinian dead for 1 Israeli, or at least it will be very soon.

So, for all those who say Palestine is responsible for bringing about peace, what do you say they do now to get it? it's clear Israel doesn't want it, despite even people in the US massing to demonstrate against the extreme Israeli retaliation. Yes, that's right, even your own country-people are joining in the international voices against Israel's overreaction.

I think if the world really wants to be heard on this issue it's time to impose a blockade of sorts on Israel. No more arms or money, or international support allowed until support is allowed into Palestine through more than one lousy crossing. This would require the US government to do more than simply ask Palestinians to stop, and to actually put pressure on Israel as well.

Israel clearly wants to take back the Gaza strip and eliminate the Palestinians, and there seems little or nothing the Palestinians can do in return. But the world doesn't have to put up with it. Block any and all support to Israel until they agree to lift the blockade on Gaza and cease fire, with the condition that Hamas also stop firing rockets and they do more to reign in militants.

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Badsey: "When you keep sending money to Terrorists you can expect terror and impoverishment of the local people."

Agreed. The US needs to stop sending money to Israel.

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I just heard this news on BBC News 24, it made me cry.

The man on BBC said, it looks like Israel is trying to destroy Gaza and the whole infrastructure during the holiday period, so the world won't botice and make so much fuss.

That is a wicked and beastly thing to do. MOre babies and innocents dead from Israeli genocide!!! I can'T believe it, this is so horrid.

Why don'T other countries make Israel a rogue state?

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I don't blame the Israelis a bit. It's easy enough for European powers to sit back and call for Israel to stop the operation against Hamas. The Europeans, of course, don't have to live with thousands of rocket attacks against their citizens. If they did, I have no doubt they'd be singing a different tune. Case in point: Egypt. Egypt who also shares a border with Gaza and, surprisingly enough, sides with Israel in this and has closed down its border with Gaza as well. A point glossed over by Hamas apologists who use the closed border with Israel as justification to try and kill civilians -- not Egyptian, of course, never know if they'd try as hard to avoid civilian casualties, just Israeli -- never considering the fact that it was the rocket attacks against Israel which led to the border closure in the first place.

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"The count is now 100 Palestinian dead for one Israeli"

At this rate you would think the Palestinians would wise up and stop launching rockets at Israel...

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Israel is behaving like Biblical times, and showing no remorse.

Stop making grown men like me cry Israel. Why do you hate arabs so much?

Please stop killing children now and change your wicked ways.

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"Israel clearly wants to take back the Gaza strip and eliminate the Palestinians, and there seems little or nothing the Palestinians can do in return. "

It's like talking to a child.

Israel completely pulled out of Gaza more than three years ago.

The "Palestinians" could have done anything with that land. Tourism, finance, trade, the opportunities awaited them.

Instead, they destroyed the infrastructure, tore down buildings the Israelis left behind.

American philanthropists saw their good works rejected.

["Bill Gates secretly paid for Gaza greenhouses Deal to 'enhance peace process,' but Palestinians stripped, looted facilities" http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49710]

Again, one-sided calls for America to do something are transparent.

Hamas is backed by Iran.

"Pacifists" in cases like this are, as Orwell pointed out, objectively pro-fascist.

It's amazing how easily they were and are still called out:

"Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of the western countries."

~ George Orwell

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sarge: "At this rate you would think the Palestinians would wise up and stop launching rockets at Israel..."

They have. In fact, they offered more than one cease fire agreement, which Israel quickly rejected. It's even funnier, so to speak, how they said 'We'll consider a truce' to the outside world while lining their tanks and troops along the Gaza border, preparing for a ground assault. Israel doesn't want peace, my friend.

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There is only one US president at a time. So rightly says Obama. But when there was attacks in Mumbai, he was quick to condemn. He has been quick in telling his mind on the economy too. What about now? Why the silence. is he actually the house N? Dont make the terrorists words look prophetic

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adamantine: Almost a clever post, but not quite. You see, I condemn ALL violence, and have stated it time and again. I have said that there should be a blockade on Israel until they lift that on Gaza. Now, since I am suggesting Western countries put a blockade on Gaza, how is that directing violence against Western countries? If I am suggesting stipulations be placed on Hamas to stop firing rockets in exchange for lifting the blockade on them, how is that against Western countries?

Yes, the US is a western country, and yes I am against their giving Israel carte blanche, but nowhere does that mean I am against ALL Western countries by any means. In fact, I am voicing the SAME opinion as ALL Western countries outside the US, in particular the UN and others mentioned in the article who want the same thing.

In other words, your point with the whole Orwell thing is moot. Better than usual, but still moot.

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toonagi: Learn a little bit more about Israel. Here,listen to the rational Israeli people's voce.

http://december18th.org/

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@toonagi

i would vulgarly suggest you to read some History and facts

I would kindly suggest that you go beyond the only history book you were given to swallow. Check sources and crosscheck and then crosscheck some more.

Signed: Not a "terrorist"

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Smith, Hamas are the ones who ended the cease-fire. They could have continued it, but nah...

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Toonagi

P.S Reader s digest does not qualify as a book

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"Israel doesn't want peace"

Israel wants peace. Heck, they don't want to be surrounded by enemies launching rockets at them forever.

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Why should Israel accept a truce when Hamas won't even allow wounded Gazans access to the free medical care awaiting them in Egypt? Nothing provides clearer proof that Hamas wields absolute control.

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Almost a clever post, but not quite

oh-boy

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw&eurl=http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/

more then words...

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sarge: "Israel wants peace. Heck, they don't want to be surrounded by enemies launching rockets at them forever."

Wanting peace and wanting to annihilate your enemy are not quite the same thing. I believe Israel wants peace eventually, but they certainly don't want it today or tomorrow. They are going to push for another couple of days, bomb a few more school houses and kill about 100 to 200 more women and children (on top of the Hamas security agents), and THEN when international outrage peaks they'll loosen up a bit.

But don't tell me they want peace when the article now headlines 'Israel rejects 48 hour halt to Gaza assault'.

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adamantine: "Why should Israel accept a truce when Hamas won't even allow wounded Gazans access to the free medical care awaiting them in Egypt?"

Well, since that has nothing to do with the truce arrangement, then let's make it a condition. Israel agrees to the halt in aggression if Hamas allows aid in from Egypt. Sound good? You think Israel can go for it and then you don't need to look for another excuse as to why Israel doesn't want peace?

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Israel doesn't want a cease-fire or halt because they want to finish Hamas or at least crack their skulls and teach them a lesson at whatever cost. No point in playing games here. It is standard Israel behavior.

Just depends if the propaganda machine can keep public opinion on their side for long enough.

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FromEurope: Palestinians have all the right to retaliate the invaders.

So you're OK if the retaliation includes firing rockets into kindergartens? It sounds more like you're creatively defining the situation so you can support terrorism without saying that you support terrorism. One can make the distinction between supporting the people of Palestine and supporting the targeting of innocents.....but I'm not necessarily hearing that from you.

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The only truce or peace accord even worth acknowledging has to come from Hamas' financiers and military trainers - the mullahs who rule Iran.

Anything less transparent is annulled by their openly genocidal, Islamo-fascist charter.

Moderator: Please do not use the word Islamofascist. It is meaningless, inflammatory and has no place in an exchange of views among mature adults.

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But don't tell me they want peace when the article now headlines 'Israel rejects 48 hour halt to Gaza assault'.

Smith, this is not "time out" for the bad kids you teach. Its war. Hamas started it and Israel intends to finish it.

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Otto said:

They are going to push for another couple of days, bomb a few more school houses and kill about 100 to 200 more women and children (on top of the Hamas security agents)

Those Hamas security agents are always hiding behind women and children...

I am unsure about this factually. There are no real reports etc that indicate this. You hear a lot of Israeli spokespeople say it. If you think about it. The key to Hamas's survival is the support of the local population. If they are using civilians as human shields I doubt their popular support would last long.

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bobbafett: "You could not post an accurate account of a drunken bar fight."

I sure could... the problem is the next day when you woke up with a massive hang over and a cut on your face, you would deny the reality of what happened.

Israel has broken the cease-fire plenty of times, my friend, it just never made the news quite like this because of the number of rockets fired by Hamas this time around and the overreaction by Israel. Need proof it's an overreaction? Ask 95% of the world.

As to it being 'war', you guys insist it is only 'war' from the Israeli standpoint, and not at all war from the point of the Palestinians. You also say it's not up to Israel to bring about peace, it's only up to the Palestinians (whose cease-fire proposal was outright rejected by Israel). Now THAT is what's immature. Look at the headline, my friend. ISRAEL rejects a halt to the violence. ISRAEL.

It's hilarious to watch you guys come on here and demand Hamas halt the violence, when they've tried and Israel refuses. Your defense when that's point out? Simply calling people 'lefty' this and 'lefty' that, and trying to come up with excuses as to why Israel is actually desiring more war than the Palestinians.

Again... it's up to BOTH, not only the Palestinians. To say it's up to the enemy being destroyed to come up with peace is moronic at best.

But let's look at bobbafett's bar-fight reference again. There we are... bobbafett had a few too many Coors Lights and a fight began with another person in the bar. Now, as that person is punching away at bobbafett's face and demanding bobbafett stop fighting (while he's so drunk he just takes it like a sack of potatoes), how do you suggest he 'stop' the fighting? The guy punching first has to ease up so that they can both sit down and talk.

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Gavinova: I think that the 'hiding behind women and children' thing is an exaggeration. What IS true is that Hamas security posts are in amongst the public, and so strikes against them hit civilian targets in many cases, and have civilian casualties in almost all. They are not literally hiding behind women and kids, but they also aren't separated from them clearly.

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For all those "Lost children" in here and those who are being completely brainwashed by the Islamic propaganda of the so called Palestinians a few quotes from the Hamas charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

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smithinjapan,

Yes, but to me that is not using someone as a human shield. Gaza is the most densely populated area of the world. Civilians will be injured and killed. Thus brings to the point that the military option is not a problem solver anyway. The only option for Israel is to accept the consensus of UN 242 if they are actually interested in peace or at least minimalizing the threats against it.

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I think that the 'hiding behind women and children' thing is an exaggeration. What IS true is that Hamas security posts are in amongst the public, and so strikes against them hit civilian targets in many cases, and have civilian casualties in almost all. They are not literally hiding behind women and kids, but they also aren't separated from them clearly.

If this is not LITERALLY hiding behind women and children then for heaven sakes what is...!???

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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58837

video

" Hamas terrorists brag of hiding behind kids 'Palestinian people have developed methods of death and death-seeking' "

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adamantine,

I see you have supplied a link from Ann Coulter's favourite site to advertise. Even if you assume this happens to a limited extent, it does not excuse the mountains of reports and evidence of killings of innocent Palestinian civilians who were not even near a "Hamas security post" (whatever function that has) or other arguable legitimate target etc.

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I sure could... the problem is the next day when you woke up with a massive hang over and a cut on your face, you would deny the reality of what happened.

huh?

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how do you suggest he 'stop' the fighting?

bobbfett does not start fights. He finishes them by any means possible. Now Mr. Smith. If you were in a bar and a patron hated you (most likely) and swore to kill you no matter what, you would run away like a wee girl in stockings with pig tails. You would not try to reason with the person because reason cannot be obtained. You would not try to get peace because the person does not want it. You would not fight because you cannot. You would run like little boy in a field. Israel however can fight and does fight.

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bobbafett,

Your analogy makes little sense. You can also apply it to the Palestinian side if you want. That is the problem with your reasoning. You fail to apply the same moral standards to Palestinians as you do to the Israelis.

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smithinjapan: I agree that Hamas needs to do more, and I am NOT talking about Israel suddenly flinging open all the gates to the country and handing Hamas the keys. I'm talking about letting in more humanitarian aid in exchange for extending the cease fire at the VERY least. If that goes well then more steps towards peace can be made.

But as I explained to you in my follow up post, this is exactly what was happening already. The militants reduced rocket attacks. Israel allowed humanitarian aid in a number of times. Israel also released Palestinian prisoners. It wasn't perfect, but it was better, and better is better than worse. Your words don't seem to take into account that the condition you want to create was already in place before Hamas and the militants decided to shatter it into a million pieces by firing rockets into Israel when the cease-fire ended.

December 26: "Israel reopened its border with Gaza on Friday to allow deliveries of humanitarian aid, despite continued rocket and mortar fire from the coastal strip and growing expectations of a large-scale Israeli military campaign against Palestinian militants."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/26/africa/26mideast.4-396900.php

December 9: "Israel has temporarily reopened some border crossings with the Gaza Strip to allow in essential aid supplies. The shipments included diesel fuel for Gaza's only power plant, and fuel for a UN agency that distributes aid to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.It is the fifth time in a month Israel has allowed aid into Gaza."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7773658.stm

November 24: "Israel partially its border crossings with the Gaza Strip on Monday to allow the transfer of humanitarian aid, following a reduction in rocket attacks from the strip over the past few days."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1040233.html

November 18: "The Israelis have temporarily opened the Karem Abu Salem border crossing with Gaza to allow a limited supply of humanitarian aid to reach the territory."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/11/200811178175924421.html

Israel also released nearly 1000 prisoners since the start of the truce, mostly as a goodwill gesture to Abbas.

If you check the information for yourself you're going to see two things: 1) Aid was allowed in when the rocket attacks were reduced and 2) the borders were resealed when rockets attacks increased.

The reason we're in this situation right now is because the cease-fire ended and the militants started attacking again. Period. Even after the militants started attacking again Israel let in a shipment of aid on December 26....and the militants continued to fire rockets anyway. In my opinion that was their last chance, and they passed on it. At that point Israel decided to cripple Hamas and that's where we're at now. Any talk of a cease fire at this point is just a way for Hamas to save themselves. If they wanted peace they should have stopped last week. They can't backtrack and say, "Oh, sorry, we didn't realize we wouldn't get away with it, so we'd like a cease-fire now." That's not a group that wants peace, that's a group that wants to survive.

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toonagi: "If this is not LITERALLY hiding behind women and children then for heaven sakes what is...!???"

Well, geez... when you guys say 'human shield' I oft think of using a person as a shield, as in, in a hostage situation. Sorry to get all 'semantic' on you, but that's what a shield is. As Gavinova pointed out, it's one of the most densely populated areas in the world -- they're not going to be able to put them outside of any populated areas. The only one acting like children on here are the ones constantly bringing it up. They seriously cannot offer a SINGLE comment on the thread or by way of solution; they simply try to undermine others' arguments by trying to attacking the person making the posts.

bobbafett: that goes for you, too. You brought up the bar fight analogy, I merely pointed out how in the next day after you would have been too drunk to remember how badly you were beaten, as with on this topic. Need more proof of who the children are in this conversation?

"... you would run away like a wee girl in stockings with pig tails.... You would not fight because you cannot. You would run like little boy in a field...."

A very, very mature argument on the thread at hand, my friend... very mature! Again, the person who often yells out 'you're nothing but a child' is simply misdirecting their own guilt and/or how they truly feel.

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Gavinova: "You fail to apply the same moral standards to Palestinians as you do to the Israelis."

The Israelis did NOT choose Hamas!

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That is the problem with your reasoning. You fail to apply the same moral standards to Palestinians as you do to the Israelis.

But the Government of Israel does not exists to completely eradicate the Earth of Palestinians. In fact they have persevered with them for a long long time when no other country would even accept them. The Arab countries use the Palestine's for their own anti semitic agenda, with no real heart for the Palestinian people.

Israel has tried so much diplomacy with these people for a long time and what do they do in return? Elect a terrorist group as a Government that is sworn to the destruction of Israel. Counter wise every election in Israel is fought on the basis of obtaining peace with its neighbors, not war.

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Superlib,

I appreciate you seriousness and excellent sources of information but I have to disagree with your argument.

The mere fact that Israel was letting limited supplies of humanitarian aid into Gaza is not a positive for Israel. (under much international pressure) It just underlines the helplessness and impoverished nature of the citizens of Gaza and the fact they are under the complete control of Israel in a prison like environment.

we know that Gaza is a cease pool of human misery at the hands of Israel sanctions and control.

As you said prisoner release was a goodwill gesture to Abbas - adversary to Hamas. Nothing to do with Hamas.

You can lay some of the blame with Hamas for rocket fire. But one needs to apply the same moral judgment on Israel. why would Hamas continue the cease-fire when they are being starved into death, poverty, disease and hopelessness.

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why would Hamas continue the cease-fire when they are being starved into death, poverty, disease and hopelessness

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Should the world have sent them Christmas presents?

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Terrorist organizations terrorize and murder people. Given that, Israel is a far bigger terrorist organization than Hamas, if the victims of state sponsored terrorism are counted.

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when they are being starved into death, poverty, disease and hopelessness

The Palestinian people elected their own Government and now must live with the consequences. They must have known what the future would be when they cast their ballots. So leave them alone now. They chose this. Do not interfere with their right to vote. This is what they want. Full on war with Israel, and then the world criticizes Israel for obliging them.

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Terrorist organizations terrorize and murder people. Given that, Israel is a far bigger terrorist organization than Hamas, if the victims of state sponsored terrorism are counted.

why? because they fight hard to protect themselves against those that wish to kill all of them while doing their absolute best to achieve and impossible peace with those that desire their complete annihilation? What would you do? Lay down and die?

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bobbafett

But the Government of Israel does not exists to completely eradicate the Earth of Palestinians. In fact they have persevered with them for a long long time when no other country would even accept them. The Arab countries use the Palestine's for their own anti semitic agenda, with no real heart for the Palestinian people.

You still have to apply the same moral standards to all human beings if you are to have a rational debate about a topic. I do not want to discuss about other Arab nations treatment of the Palestinians but I agree it is appalling. In my opinion until recently the Israel Government has been trying to eradicate the population of the Palestinians...now they have lowered their aims to an apartheid like solution.

Hamas need to change their charter. You are correct there. But this is not what I mean about applying the same moral standards.

Israel has tried so much diplomacy with these people for a long time and what do they do in return? Elect a terrorist group as a Government that is sworn to the destruction of Israel. Counter wise every election in Israel is fought on the basis of obtaining peace with its neighbors, not war.

I would like to talk further about the negotiations with Arafat etc but not now. I think diplomatic efforts have been poor on both sides. You negotiate with your enemies not your friends. Egypt, Jordan etc have been great enemies of Israel in the past, and now have normal relationships. It could be done with Hamas too in my opinion.

So My analogy, which was childish for Mr. Smiths purpose, stands, and on the side of Israel.

It can stand for Israel...but you can also apply it to the Palestinians. Both sides are essentially terrorist bullies. It just happens that Israel is the strongest bully with the strongest friends.

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"because they fight hard to protect themselves against those that wish to kill all of them while doing their absolute best to achieve and impossible peace with those that desire their complete annihilation?"

mighty big sentence for a wee lad. No, it's because for zero people killed by the mortars and rockets before their retaliation, they have gone and slaughtered nearly 400 now with no sign of stopping. During that time, Hamas in turn fired back and managed to kill more, spreading terror amongst Israelis as to how far the new attacks could reach. Catch that? Things got WORSE with Hamas attacks AFTER Israeli retaliation. Now Israel is planning a ground assault where they will kill a couple hundred more before scurrying back and locking down the blockade again. The result? Hamas will regroup and go at it again. Stupid of Hamas, and pathetic of Israel. They almost deserve each other, and both deserve the world's scorn.

Call me childish all you want, but I learned long ago that violence begets violence, and there is a better way to solve this than by launching a full-scale invasion that will kill 1000 times more people than the little rockets and mortars have, and wound and leave thousands and thousands more homeless. Israel's overreaction is the thing that's childish, as is the support for it.

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bobbafett: "Ahh yes, the last dying comments of a man clutching at straws."

How's that? Again, sounds like misdirected frustration to me. Not surprised, though. When you're 'I know you are but what am I' logic does not work, you switch to misreading proverbs, bobbafett?

Come on, seriously... grow up and try to argue a point.

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Hamas is a terrorist organization. Should the world have sent them Christmas presents?

The Palestinian people elected their own Government and now must live with the consequences.

Terrorist organization in accordance to who? The US and Israel? If we apply the definition of what is a terrorist I think you find Hamas is certainly a terrorist organization but what does that make Israel and the US?

As I told you before we must apply the same standards to others as we do to ourselves or else it is impossible to have a rational debate.

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Israel stop being so beastly and horrid. Why canyou stop your policy of genocide to arabs?

I cannot understand why they would reject a halt, unless of course, god-forbid, Israel actuall derives pleasure from its wanton slaughter of the masses.

I've cried so much the last few days from seeing all the innocent victims of the Israelis.

Please stop killing now Israel, accept a ceasefire. I feel like jumping up and down and screaming as loud as my lungs will allow!!!

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Egypt, Jordan etc have been great enemies of Israel in the past, and now have normal relationships

perhaps you have missed a simple point here. Israel has been able to obtain peace with former enemies but cannot with the Palestinians. A reason exists for this. The Palestinians so not want peace. They want all Israelis dead. Period. They even voted in a Government that had sworn to do so.

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I'm hoping that in another couple of hours, when the New Year arrives, these people in the Middle East will come to their senses and realize that they must share the planet in peace and stop killing each other.

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I've cried so much the last few days from seeing all the innocent victims of the Israelis.

Yet when it comes to conflicts like Rawanda you are no where to be heard. Hypocrite.

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Gavinova: "As I told you before we must apply the same standards to others as we do to ourselves or else it is impossible to have a rational debate."

Agreed, but then, we are talking to stubborn little rascals who simply put fingers in their ears and shout 'la la la la la' when you try to reason with them.

Anyway, it's been a slice, peoples, but as the New Year is soon to be rung in, I'm off to have some fun.

Regardless of your political point of views, and where we may or may not disagree, I bid you all a Happy New Year. It seems like there won't be peace right away in the ME, and we're going into 2009 with yet more war and bloodshed, but I hope peace can be found at some point in the near future.

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The Palestinians so not want peace. They want all Israelis dead.

I think you will find many want a one state solution but few want "all Israelis dead". I am sorry you have come to this opinion.

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smith,

I know you are but what am I' logic does not work

you started that.

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"Hamas is certainly a terrorist organization but what does that make Israel and the US?"

Israel and the U.S. love Peace and Motherhood.

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bobbafett- i am not a hypocrite dear!!!

I watched the dead and cried simple as that. And Israel refuses to stop the massacres and is in fact planning an invasion to speed up the genocide.

The ceasefire was the only choice Israel had to gain any repcet, but some like you honey, blindly love them as your US Govt instructs.

I am open minded and a peace lover.

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Lets hope the New Year brings a complete lack of human misery for all and some peace to the world because I hate war just like anyone.

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MikeBarrymore ,

I agree. The actions of Israel are unjustifiable.

Have a happy new year and I hope for peace in the Middle East for 2009!

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I think the UN needs to create a UN-administered buffer zone between Israel at its pre-1967 borders and the Palestinian Territory. Palestine should be made a state with territorial reach up to Israel's pre-1967 borders but with the understanding that the administration of the buffer zone will only be handed back to Palestine with the achievement of peace. The UN's function in the buffer zone would be to assist Israeli's living there to resettle in Israel and to capture and prosecute those who continue to antagonize Israel.

It is not pointless to ask who created this situation. Obviously the Hamas rockets are a source of fear and uncertainty in Israel. Just as obviously, Israel's failure to adequately administer to the needs of the people in the territory it seized is a source of desperation in the Palestine Territory. The British, the UNSC, the Americans, the Iranians, the Egyptians and others are all sources of the problem. It is as pointless to blame this on Hamas rockets alone as it was to blame the unconscionable destruction of Lebanon on the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier.

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MikeBarrymore:

" I watched the dead and cried simple as that. And Israel refuses to stop the massacres and is in fact planning an invasion to speed up the genocide. "

Genocide?? Israel has the strongest military in the region. In 4 days of attacking Hamas, they have ratched up about 300 dead people, most which are uniformed Hamas members. If Israel intended a "genocide" and this is the result, that leaves two possibities: a) Israeli pilots are the most incompetent idiots in the world b) There is no "genocide", in fact they take great chances in order to reduced unintend casualties.

Take your pick. And save the hyperbole.

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@toonajew

The Palestinians so not want peace. They want all Israelis dead.

Hold on there lad.... they do not want them dead... they want them out of THEIR land ....Now go ahead and ask yourself, honestly that is, would you not do the same????

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WilliB- I would guess they are incompetent. Israel has just begun its genocide sweetheart. Watch the net few days , as the region is flattened and corpses line the street.

God whay are they so ghastly!!!

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KILL...KILL...KILL!!!!!!!! Isreali's cry.

The death toll is going to escalate as soon as the Isrealites take to their ground game. When the Isrealites enter Gaza they will be facing their victoms. Not just firing rockets or flying overhead dropping bombs from miles up. < :-)

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Hamas, the government of the Palestinian people in Gaza, went looking for this fight by launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians (something like 6,000 since their election in 2007) and now Hamas is getting a well deserved punch in the mouth for it. Those in the international community who call for a ceasefire are basically condoning rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

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The thing is in many ways its Israel's fault - not publishing and making a big fuss in the media regarding the daily missile shooting from Gaza is showing us that this is what the whole story is about - crating shocking imaegs that will be burnt into the viewers minds - and this is where "Paliwood" is really doing the best. people of the world are being menipulated by the media that how it is in the 21th century theres no more ethics no more counciouseness only RATING.

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Less than 30 minutes now before all hostilities in the Middle East cease for good.

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Those in the international community who call for a ceasefire are basically condoning rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

There are two sets of objections, one moral and the other strategic. Motivated by the latter, Washington is in fact scrambling to effect just such an outcome. People in high places are worried that the assault on Gaza could drag on yet, in the end, fail to destroy Hamas and ultimately strengthen it. Such was the outcome of Israel's incursion into Lebanon in 2006 against Hezbollah (that was similarly applauded here on JT).

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adaydream:

" KILL...KILL...KILL!!!!!!!! Isreali's cry. "

That is the propaganda slogan from the islamists. However, it is nonsense. If the IDF wanted to kill, they could position artillery around Gaza and flatten the place. The fact that they have taken out half of the Hamas rocket installations with so few casualties (and most of them in Hamas uniform) is astonishing in itself.

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shiuu is right:

Hamas, the government of the Palestinian people in Gaza, went looking for this fight by launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians...

I would add to that the blockade that Hamas is crying about only occurred because of Hamas' actions in Gaza; as the JT story noets:

Israel imposed the blockade after Hamas violently took over Gaza in June 2007, and fears opening the crossings would allow the group — which remains officially committed to Israel’s destruction — to strengthen its hold on the territory.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel and this is manifsted by it's current use of Gaza as a base to launch rockets at civilians in Israel. Israel should continue to pursue it's military objectives until Hamas stops firing rockets at them. Anything less would be a tactical defeat for Israel and would embolden Hamas to continue it's use of terror tactics to achieve what should be achieved through negotiation. Israel can not contiually restrain themselves even when it knows that Hamas uses civilians are human shields; they cannot just sit around and let their adversary rocket them at will. Hamas is responsible for the deaths of the Palestinians in Gaza.

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SuperLib -

So you're OK if the retaliation includes firing rockets into kindergartens?

You don't have an accurate information about Palestinian's rocket. French News call it as "Roulette russe". Once they fire the rocket, they have no control and they don't even know where it will land. It's not like the rockets used by Israeli military that are guided and can hit a pin point target.

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all of you people who say : "israel is a terrorist country" "they commit Genocide"..."bla bla bla..." don't know what they are talking about. did you ever see a juwish man explode in a public place? did you ever see israeli people take any other country's flag and burn it? did you ever see any israeli person luagh or smiling after taking down a building or a child being murdered? after each kill the palestine make they are going out to the street and show exactly how happy they are about it.

all of what you see in the news around the world is what Hamas wants you to see. they don't show you they have been bombing israel for years now. WAKE UP! IF YOUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN BOMBED ALONG ITS BORDERS FOR DECADES AND ALL YOUR NEAR COUNTRIES AROUND JUST WANT YOU DEAD. YOU WOULD THINK DEFERENTLY.

i live in Rehovot ,israel. just a few miles from where the bombs falls. i have nothing against arabian people , i don't wish them to die nor disapear. we want peace more than you all. but in reality there is no one to talk to , Hamas is a terrorist organization ,the have murdered thousands of their own people just because they don't agree with them. search google for news about it , you will find many.

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current genocide

get a grip mike...oh, you already have.

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get a grip mike...oh, you already have

This war is about exterminating the native peoples of the land. So it is in a way genocide.

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There are women who have already volunteered to take up arms and are ready to fight against the Isrealites as soon as the ground campaign begins. The attack on Gaza will get people to enlist and become freedom fighters in numbers that would exceed normal enlistment.

Just like in Lebanon, Hizbollah's numbers grew and grew. It just strenghtened Hizbollah.

The same will happen in Gaza. Isrealites will be facing numbers unlike what they might expect.

Things will just get worse. < :-)

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i never agree with a life being taken not from children not from any other persons, i don't jestify any of this. because hamas is hiding behind 1.5 ~ million people in gaza and keep bombing israel, unfortunatly innocent people getting hurt and killed Hamas does not go out and face israel face to face. they choose to risk their own people. they put the weman and children in front so you will see that they are the one who take the hit.

and maybe i am not an inteligant person as you are trying to imply, but i have better knowledge of this arew than you do.

i feel sad and pity for those civiliens in Gaza that are traped there between those actions of war, but their government of Hamas put them behind there. there was never any attack made on gaza before the HAMAS and HIZBALA took charge of the place. if israel wanted to Genocide the palestinien trust that there wasn't only 380 people dead. we have from the best pilots in the world.

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Yeah...yeah...yeah... Isreal doesn't do anything wrong.

It's all Hamas' and Palestine's fault.

Isreal has been the model of a great neighbor.

They haven't encroached on Palestine or caused them any pain.

Please continue to tell me how Isreal is the greatest country ever to exist in the Middle East. < :-)

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BTW, I hate religion. It makes us fight when we probably would not do so if met as kids in a sand pit. I have so many friends. From Iran, Iraq, Israel....We all get along nicely in the Japanese sand box.

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I wonder, there are those that say that Israel is lying. They also believe Hamas is telling the truth. Has it ever occured to you that both may be lying? That both may be stretching the truth to suit their needs, to gain sympathy for their cause? EVERY government in existence has lied to increase their power and support from the public. Is Hamas totally different? Is Hamas magically above lying, and couldn't possibly be decieving people? If so, they'd be the only ones in history.

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itcher74, They have peace with Egypt and Jordon. A slight peace with Syria and Lebanon who really are too scared to mess with them.

The facts are that Hamas is a terrorist organization that seeks the total destruction of babies and toddlers.

They were voted in by the Palestinian people. This is hardly a prelude to peace.

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I am a non us citizen. I am not a blind, ignorant, moron. But we are really chasing the wind here. Talking pre history and all. The facts are that Hamas is a terrorist organization that seeks the total destruction of babies and toddlers.

You sound like an American. The fact is Israel is waging a 60 year old war against the indegenous people and the rightful ownerrs of the land and they are trying to win this by corrupting leaders. If your family is starving and ISrael gives you an ultimatum. I will give you lots of money as long as you give up the right of a native Palstinian state, what would you do?

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BTW, I hate religion. It makes us fight when we probably would not do so if met as kids in a sand pit.

Religion is an excuse for and not a cause of people figthing.

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Religion is an excuse for and not a cause of people figthing.

This is not a religious war it is a war to exterminate the indegenous people using religion as a pretext.

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YOU still don't get it. It is a colonist war against the indegenous using religion as an excuse to carry out their crimes.

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any way , all the sides are pushing the truth toward their own directions and benifites. it is just that israel don't apear in the television and show children crying with blood on there face. this war is all wrong but just must heppan. you didn't see it in international news when a bomb landed on a house in Shderot ,killed 2 people / or injured several, before this war happaned lets say two weeks ago or a mounth.

religion is not the isue or the cause for this to happen it is just that Hamas is using it to justify a killig. jews in israel don't act because of religion , but because it must protect its civiliens. most jews in israel are not even religius.

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Itcher74, I notice you seem to talk in circles, saying the same things over again and adding nothing to the debate. I have yet to see any proof you provide for your accusations (links, please?) of racism or genocide. Instead you rely on inflammitory and emotive jargon which is tiresome to read. It would be nice if you could debate the issue more intelligently, and without flames. I would like to hear your answer to my previous post here.

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I would gladly take on a homeless person or a refugee anytime. I do not need religion to do that. I just have a big heart for people and would love the Israelis and Palestinians to live together in harmony. Religion will make sure that this never happens.

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If we want to stop this war, we need Philosophers, not religious politicians.

I agree with bobafett, however sadly we need an entirely new generation of vacuum sealed test tube babies isolated from religion, revenge and most other external stimuli to make this dream a reality. arsehole parents usually create arsehole kids, in every country and every denomination of faith. thousands of years of human history, nothing has changed except the names. hatred, exclusion, war, famine, corruption....these are fundamental human traits, play all the Lennon songs you want, vote for____, sadly it won't change a thing. still, knowing that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make our period of stay on Earth comfortable and equal for everybody and do enough (or in some cases abstain from doing enough) to make us all get a good night's sleep and awake with the hope of change.

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Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mohammad Taha of the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada. - From Wikipedia.

I can remember wars going on between Isreal and everybody long before 1987. Is Isreal against everybody? Has Isreal ever been wrong in their attacking their neighbors?

It just appears that except for the U. S. and it's close allies, the world seems to be calling an all to stop. Not just Hamas.

But in stopping the borders need to be opened for humanitarian needs, everyday needs.

Closing the borders has done one thing. It's stopped good people, men, women and especially children from getting the basic neccessities and medicines. It hasn't stopped Hamas from getting in weapons componets. It hasn't stopped them from smuggling in anything.

So this total blockade, the closing of the borders has done one thing. Hurt good people.

I agree that good Isreali people have died from Hamas bombings. I also agree that they need to be stopped. But this will not make things better. What you'll have is a retaliation that will never end.

So go back to your bickering Mahamad (sp), Moses and any other biblical character you like. The here and now has to be changed and just killing and saying Hamas has to stop is, won't stop anything.

Pray for Peace in the New Year. < :-)

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Exciting discussion!

All religion aside, Israel has the right to defend itself. If Palestine agrees to a cease fire, then turns around and breaks that cease fire, the word of Palestine is no good.

The same can be said the other way around.

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I have yet to see any proof you provide for your accusations (links, please?) of racism or genocide

Israel is waging a war against its indegenous peopel and so they have for the past 60 years. Get with the programme.

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wounds enough to heal without some idiot trying to draw more lines

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But thats not the point. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians be it Jews, Christians or Muslims. The Palestinians are the rightful owners of Palestine.

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Itcher74, Again, you said that already. Still no links? All we can definitely agree on is that there's conflict. Where's your proof of oppression? Do you agree that innocents on both sides have died?

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I think you need to come to terms with facts.

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Funny you should tell me to Google because when I do, I get articles like this one from the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.stm Why should I work to prove YOUR point to me? That's not how a debate works. You haven't answered my question, Do you agree that innocents on both sides have died?

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Come on, itcher. Aren't you taking things a bit seriously? Life will improve for the Palestinians someday.

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Well, that's a new cap on something old. Itcher74, you still provide no links, say the same things, even expect me to debate your point for you. Going around in circles like this is not only counter-productive to finding a solution, it's boring. Let go of the hate, maybe you can find a way to contribute instead of hinder. When you have something of substance to say, I'll gladly listen. Till then...

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I simply can not understand people who supports hamas,and in the same time using definitions of the western culture. if hamas is winning this and later other fanatic Muslims takes over the western countries you guys will NEVER have the privilege of typing your opinions in the first place. how can you even think of supports any group which based on fundamentals which are so far and different of those the whole internet is based upon...

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"Protocol 1, Article 51 of the 4th Geneva Convention and Article 28 of the Geneva Convention make clear that "the deliberate intermingling of civilians and combatants, designed to create a situation in which any attack against combatants would necessarily entail an excessive number of casualties is a flagrant breach of the Law of International Armed Conflict," according to international law scholar Yoram Dinstein (see his The Conduct of Hostilities under the Law of International Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp. 129 - 130). It is clear that Hamas bears complete and full responsibility for civilian casualties in Gaza as they are operating their deadly terrorist operations from there. Of course the overwhelming majority of Gazan savage barbarians voted for & support Hamas' goal of destroying Israel by all means. The population there views dying for that cause as the highest form of human endeavor. They claim to be happy when babies, children, women, & men die fighting Israel. Then they play victim for 60 years. Where in history in this world is there another "people" (in this case a fictitious one, as they are a mix of 55 nations and there has never been a "Palestinian people, music, culture, etc. They are Arabs or, truthfully, a mixture of 55 nations. See "From Time Immemorial," by Joan Peters.) who are called "refugees" of war into the 4th generation living in cities called refugee camps? It's outrageous that the UN gives food to savages whose lives are bent solely on destruction."

Sadly not mine, but I whole heartedly agree

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playing the victim is a game Japanese know well -Hey! That is our game.

Anyway the truce is over -Fight On! Winner take all.

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adaydream

I can remember wars going on between Isreal and everybody long before 1987. Is Isreal against everybody?

No, the Muslim Arab world is against Israel. It doesn't want the Infidel living in the ME. Not sure why you don't get it, though socialism does cloud the mind.

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adaydream

Is Isreal against everybody?

Israel is surrounded by people that are against Israel. It would seem that you have been indoctrinated to see Israel as the bed guy here. Maybe before commenting on world issues you should ask who taught you to see the world the way you do. Maybe they had an agenda that you didn’t see, but now you have grown up (?) maybe you should look for it.

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grafton,

That was a nice post from the Geneva Convention.

Now you have to try to apply it correctly with a factual basis.

"From Time Immemorial," by Joan Peters was a hoax book. It is not taken seriously by any serious scholar on the topic.

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Gavinova at 11:11 PM JST - 1st January It is not taken seriously by any serious scholar on the topic. It is not scholars that are firing rockets into Israel & it is not scholars that are posting rubish here. Given the context I think I did apply it correctly. This is not an international court of law. Reading some of what is written here I think you would have to at least agree with that.

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@ANOTSUSAGAMI

I don't think sir you realize what an air strike could look like so here is a link to help you picture it, I wonder how long could you keep watching it :

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

details:

date: the first day of the butchery how many causalities: I could count the one piece guys, but I couldn't count the dismembered ones, so do it yourself

who are these people: they are obviously the victims

who's doing's this: israel terrorism

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Israel should never have given the Gaza strip to the Palestinians. Huge mistake.

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*The Hamas charter states:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

Really puts in a tight spot those who blame Israel, those who claim religion is unrelated to the hostilities, and those who insist that Islam is by and large a peaceful religion, and that jihad is misunderstood by "Islamophobes".

I do enjoy watching them squirm.*

If i may response to adamantine's comment (pasted above) You seem to not even understand the word jihad. But i don't blame you, even Muslims sometimes are unclear of its meaning. I am humbly not a very good scholar to give a very good explanation but what i am aware is that it doesn't at all indicate refusing peace.

In Islam, there are conditions for war. Explicit conditions. 1. Only go to war if you are attacked, i.e defense. 2. You can't attack women children and old people. 3. You can't destroy plants. 4. You can't attack religious buildings i.e mosque, church, synagogues. I hope i've listed all here. I think there's another one about being opressed but i dare not put it down in case it's wrong. It might fall under the defense. Excuse my shortcomings. Basically the Palestinians are defending themselves.

I squirm not on the word jihad, but at own error of not being able to correct the widespread view on the word jihad.

There are propagandas everywhere and people usually believe what they want to believe. I have made some error in judgment before and thus I can't blame others who do. Please read from both sides. Even israelis are against those attacks.

But then again, you choose what to believe and i respect that. Do feel free to ask anything and despite my not-so-wide knowledge, i'll answer them.

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They are defending themselves, by firing rockets, repeatedly into Israel, without provokation. Yes, thats defense. They are defending themselves by basically begging Israel to come in and kill them in order to stop their attacks. Yes, they defend by attacking.

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Why does this reality feel like something out of a Tom Clancy novel. Seriously, this little event has the potential to blow up into something major.

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I posted this on another page but it's all relevant:

They're all mental. Someone drops a bomb, someone retaliates, someone retaliates, someone retaliates.... It's a never-ending cycle. I know I'm MASSIVELY generalising but so many atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years that it's impossible to place the blame on either.

Palestinians have done horrific, immoral, murderous things to innocents. Israelis have done horrific, immoral, murderous things to innocents. They're both as bad as each other.

I don't think this is a situation that will be resolved by fighting or talking. If they can hold back on the fighting for a generation or two the hatred between them would be lessened and neutralised.

Every post argues one way or the other. I'm sat here thinking "Palestinian sympathy, must be a Muslim/ Isreali sympathy, must be a Jew". This whole conflict is the only proof you need of the damaging power of religion.

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