Hamas asks for new truce as Israel resumes Gaza assault

i have no idea why these guys are even fighting anymore but it serious seems like they both just want an excuse to fire on each other

if any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be called a war crime

nostromo

if any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be called a war crime

I don't think you should call Hamas a country...

@gogogo - The only reason for Israel's incursion into Gaza was to stop Hamas' incessantly firing of rockets/missiles at its cities and citizens. While people may argue that there are reasons for Hamas doing this, the crux of it is that going into Gaza was the last resort for the Israeli Defense Forces and they would be more than happy to end the battle and withdraw from Gaza as soon as Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets at its citizens.

The only reason for Israel's incursion into Gaza was to stop Hamas' incessantly firing of rockets/missiles at its cities and citizens.

incessantly?

Well, Bibi admitted recently that Hamas hasn't fired any rockets since 2012. Until after Israel attacked again.

And take a look at this

http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/02/06/the-truth-about-cease-fire-violations-between-israel-and-gaza/

I don't think you should call Hamas a country...

No, it's not per sae however Israel claims to be and should thus be judged by the same standards it claims to justify it's own existence by....

So for every Israeli killed, twenty Palestinians have died. The cycle continues as it has for the past 66 years.

Fizzbit:

" Well, Bibi admitted recently that Hamas hasn't fired any rockets since 2012. "

What? Where did you get that from? "Bibi" can not "admit" admit anything like that, because it is complete nonsense. Every single Israeli intervention in Gaza has been as a very belated response to massive rocket attacks from Gaza. In this latest case, Hamas had actually been shooting rockets into Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

I am still waiting for your suggestion of what exactly Israel should do about the Hamas rockets. Nothing? Just sit still and let its population live under constant rocket attacks? Really?

you may not like Israel but they do have the right to exist just like any other country in the region. they are surrounded by people who hate them and want them destroyed. fortunately for Israel they have one of the most powerful military in the region and also unofficially have nuclear weapons. There enemies (most of the Arab world) know this and that is why theyre still there. for all the wars theyve had against there enemies they havent lost one yet.

First:

after “incessant” rocket fire from Palestinian militants killed another soldier

Then:

One mortar shell killed an Israeli soldier,

A mistake? I cannot help but feel that most civilian's ignorance of weapons is being abused with the first sentence, in the hopes that short range rockets used in combat will be confused with Qassam and other longer range rockets being fired into Israel. And I again note that rockets killed no one last year, and no this year until AFTER Israel started Operation Protective Edge (don't fall for the military jargon attempting to brainwash you with that name).

And it still amazes that when people in an apartheid situation trying to form their own country fight back, that some people actually expect them to just lay down and live with apartheid. Did Moses do that? No, he didn't. But unlike the Palestinians, he had somewhere to run.

WilliB

Wow! I think The Times of Israel would disagree wit you.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

And this:

Yousef Munayyer, Executive Director of The Jerusalem Fund, explains how it typically works: Israel can "fire into Gaza without accountability, provoke a reaction and then claim self-defense."

http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2014/02/israelgaza-cease-fire-dynamics-breakdown.html

I am still waiting for your suggestion of what exactly Israel should do about the Hamas rockets.

An answer would be useless. You've made up your mind (without the facts) so it would be a waste of time. But I'll leave you with this. What should Israel do? Stop provoking it.

And please take note, these are not my words but Jews and Israeli citizens in the above information.

I'm sure many people believe that by criticising Israel they are helping the Palestinians, but until they admit that much of the blame lies with Hamas, they are doing the Palestinians no favour. Some quotes from Palestinians, who are mostly too afraid to give their real names when speaking out against their Hamas rulers:

“You need to understand that Palestinian blood has been shed by Hamas itself,” a 28-year old journalist who asked not to be identified said earlier today. “Living under Hamas is a tragedy.”

“Nobody can forgive Hamas for what they’re doing,” the journalist said. “No one can forgive Hamas for butchering Palestinians to get power. Most Gazans hate Hamas with a passion.”

"There is fear of speaking out against Hamas, which is why many have stayed quiet until now", said an editor at a local Gazan media outlet.

“The only reason Hamas rules Gaza is because of its ruthless iron fist and military dictatorship,” he said. “We would love to have an independence from both Fatah and Hamas, who are profiting off the Palestinian people. We need to rule ourselves.”

“No normal human being can watch what’s going on and still support Hamas. Hamas uses civilians, while their own leaders (like Mashaal) are hiding in Qatar.”

Why no link japonaise? You could have just written that.

If it was not for the religion of peace that is forced fed to palestinians, things might be different. It seems that the agenda has nothing to do with the desire for a palestinian state but instead the destruction of Israel. You can not play the game of throwing the first stone and pretending it was not me. If you started it, suffer the consequences. Until you learn to work things out peacefully. For instance, you can boycott Israel products or labor services. I am sure your fellow muslim friends from the Middle East will support you while you decide not to buy products from Israel or not to provide cheap labor. That is when you will find what kind of friends you have in your own part of the World. Perhaps Israel is indeed your best friend yet you do not realize it. So do not bite from the hand that feeds you. Why is it that Hamas has not learned the lesson? Why do Palestinians keep tolerating such an oppression from their own people who are supposed to be the ones to look after them?

If you started it, suffer the consequences.

Israel started it. They admit it as well. WTF are you talking about?

"For Israelis, the quiet skies ended late on Saturday with sirens sounding up the coastal plain after Hamas refused to renew the 12-hour lull and began firing rockets over the border, one of which killed an Israeli soldier"

Incredible. The Palestinians still haven't got rid of Hamas.

I see some people really dislike facts, can't post links, and spew emotional opinions and lies. It like watching FOX news.

the Israeli human rights group B'tselem, citing the Israeli Shin Bet, notes that nearly 14,000 projectiles were fired from Gaza from 2005 to 2013. UN OCHA noted that Israel fired about the same number of artillery shells into Gaza......in 2006 alone.

As you can see from the chart, Israeli cease-fire violations have been persistent throughout and have routinely resulted in Palestinian injuries and deaths. Palestinian launches have been rare and sporadic and occurred almost always after successive instances of Israeli cease-fire violations. You can see a steady escalation from around week 48 and onward. This corresponds with mid-December during which Israel committed several cease-fire violations resulting in multiple Palestinian casualties.

http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2014/02/israelgaza-cease-fire-dynamics-breakdown.html

You could have just written that.

I don't know about you, but I have no need, desire or intention of "just writing" anything. These are typical examples of things I hear from Palestinians all the time. Is it really so unbelievable that these poor people, suffering so much, would hate Hamas?

This paper may not have reported it, but about 200 Palestinian children were killed digging those tunnels used by Hamas for terrorist purposes. How do you feel about that? I'm disappointed that many people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel that they cannot see the evil that is Hamas. Palestinians do NOT want them. By falling for Hamas propaganda people are just aiding the very organisation that is preventing Palestinians' lives from improving.

WTF are you talking about?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but is there really a need to be rude like that?

I'm disappointed that many people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel that they cannot see the evil that is Hamas.

Oh and that's not rude.

How dare you try to infer what me or others feel about this war and where our loyalty is. That is not only rude but disingenuous. Israel is running an apartheid state in the West Bank and Gaza Stripe. A real peace can only start with Israel ending the apartheid and removing all the fanatical settlers.

How dare you try to infer what me or others feel about this war and where our loyalty is. That is not only rude but disingenuous. Israel is running an apartheid state in the West Bank and Gaza Stripe

I apologise if you found what I said rude. I did not intend to be. Nor was I directing anything about loyalty specifically to you.

Well, I know where your coming from. I understand from your words how emotional this is for you. I don't see a lot of pro-Israeli comments here with very many facts, and a lot of lies and slander of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have very little voice with the news slighted towards Israel most of the time. I was watching BBC here a couple of hours ago today and they were having a discussion with two guests. After the Israeli guest finished his comments, the other "kindly" started refuting what he said. The show was literally cut off and switched to a different show on how Netflix and Amazon are offering TV shows on the net. Different newscaster and set. And I would add that the second commentator was Jewish, not Palestinian. Now, I didn't look at the clock so it could have been the top of the hour programming switch. It was just ironic.

Fizzbit, I want the Palestinians to have a better life, but I don't see how that's possible with Hamas. That is also what many Palestinians are saying, although they are afraid to say so in public. Yes, they were elected, but that was in 2006. Why no election since? Hamas has spent huge amounts of money building tunnels into Israel, for the purpose of killing or kidnapping Israelis, tunnels that run under the houses of ordinary Palestinian families, families who could do nothing to stop them, and using their children for labour. I don't understand how this helps the average citizen in Gaza. That was a lot of cement. There are things that the Israeli government is doing wrong, but it is not only the Israeli government. There will be no improvement in the lives of Palestinians under Hamas. That is all I want to say.

There will be no improvement in the lives of Palestinians under Hamas. That is all I want to say.

Any improvement in the lives of Palestinian Arabs while under siege (Gaza) and occupation (West Bank) by the Zionist state will be incremental and inconsequential. Meanwhile, more Arab land will be stolen and more settlements built.

Israel placed Gaza under siege before Hamas fired a single missile, and tunnels are also a way to smuggle in necessities (medical supplies especially) to get around the boycott. Yes, tunnels are used to smuggle in weapons -- and it's a right of people to resist a siege and occupation placed on them.

Fizzbit wrote: "After the Israeli guest finished his comments, the other "kindly" started refuting what he said. The show was literally cut off and switched to a different show on how Netflix and Amazon are offering TV shows on the net. Different newscaster and set. And I would add that the second commentator was Jewish, not Palestinian. Now, I didn't look at the clock so it could have been the top of the hour programming switch. It was just ironic."

You are not imagining things. On July 22 BBC World News introduced and broadcast a live statement by Catherine Ashton on the topic of the downed Malaysian flight in Ukraine. When Ashton abruptly switched topics and mentioned Gaza the transmission of her comments was cut-off mid-syllable and programming switched to a canned (previously broadcast) segment by a BBC reporter. Just the briefest mentions of "proportionality" and "civilian casulties" being shared as concerns by other EU foreign ministers apparently triggered BBC to pull the plug. They also pulled video of the statement from their website (22 July 2014 Last updated at 14:18 BST. EU foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton holds a briefing after meeting with EU foreign ministers.). The Foreign Office obviously has BBC on a very taut leash (and maybe they are more than just OK with it).

japonaise says:

This paper may not have reported it, but about 200 Palestinian children were killed digging those tunnels used by Hamas for terrorist purposes.

...a new blogosphere revelation, worded like the example below; parroted by the disingenuous:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.jp/2014/07/0726-links-pariss-kristallnacht-hamas.html#.U9UND1YfIaZ

"At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials.” The author, Nicolas Pelham, explains that Hamas uses child laborers to build their terror tunnels because, “much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies.”

The text in quotation marks is accurate. However the italicized text is a complete fiction. Pelham, ordinarily a target for (pro-Israeli 'media watchdogs') CAMERA.org and cifwatch.com, refers to accidents in the commercial tunnels between Gaza and Egypt begun by Bedouins in the early 1980s, developed by Fatah, and acquired by Hamas when they came to power in 2006. His report:

http://palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=11424&jid=1&href=fulltext

I have no love for Hamas, but abhor blatant lies. Let's keep the 'factoids' verifiable, please.

Israel placed Gaza under siege before Hamas fired a single missile

? First, are you aware of how many suicide bombings Hamas was responsible for in the early 2000s? Second, the US, EU, Russia and UN, in addition to Israel, put sanctions against the Hamas led government. So, this was not just about Israel, this was about the opinions of the US, the EU, Russia and the UN.

and it's a right of people to resist a siege and occupation placed on them.

Why do that when they could negotiate for peace instead? Why place their very own citizens in danger when they could be sitting at the negotiating table for peace instead?

Because Slumdog, the peace conditions are always a trick. Disarm and give us all your weapons. It's never balanced.

We're all well aware of the suicide bombings. What is not reported in the MSM is the terrorism inflicted upon the Palestinians by the settlers and the IDF. You make it sound like the suicide bombers did it for shits-n-giggles. IMO

Fizzbit,

First, I think it would be better for people to hear from the son of one of the founders of Hamas talk about Hamas and the situation in Gaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfQpLQdn4fQ

Second,

We're all well aware of the suicide bombings.

? And? That's it? You are aware and...? No comment?

What is not reported in the MSM

If you know about it, chances are you read it or heard about it in some form of mainstream media. You are posting on a MSM site. Please do not attempt to tell other people how to get their news when you avail yourself of mainstream news whenever you choose to yourself. Reports of what going on in the occupied territories are pretty much daily. You would have to be hard of hearing or sight impaired not to know about them.

You make it sound like the suicide bombers did it for ()&('&)&%%$#

Ummm, there was an attempt at peace negotations that the Palestinians left in 2000. Hamas has never wanted peace with Israel and has never wanted to negotiate with Israel, so I really feel Hamas has no place in a reasonable discussion about peace in the region and I also feel there is absolutely not rationalization possible for the suicide bombings they did. None whatsoever.

@fizz

I see some people really dislike facts, can't post links, and spew emotional opinions and lies. It like watching FOX news.

Is the truth that painful?

I want the Palestinians to have a better life, but I don't see how that's possible with Hamas. That is also what many Palestinians are saying, although they are afraid to say so in public. Yes, they were elected, but that was in 2006. Why no election since? Hamas has spent huge amounts of MONEY building tunnels into Israel, for the purpose of killing or kidnapping Israelis, tunnels that run under the houses of ordinary Palestinian families, families who could do nothing to stop them, and using their children for labour. I don't understand how this helps the average citizen in Gaza. That was a lot of cement. There are things that the Israeli government is doing wrong, but it is not only the Israeli government. There will be no improvement in the lives of Palestinians under Hamas. That is all I want to say.

That's what all rational people want, well said. I totally agree.

First, are you aware of how many suicide bombings Hamas was responsible for in the early 2000s?

Suicide bombings are always the sign of a desperate people. The mother of a 13-year-old girl killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber recorded her thoughts. They were notable because she was the daughter of an IDF general. She blamed the government of Israel for the death of her daughter. It was Israeli policies of siege and occupation that drove young men to such desperation that they would take their own lives and the lives of others.

Why do that when they could negotiate for peace instead?

Israel does not want peace. They want domination. They want the status quo, which means the same thing. They are the invaders, stealing land and laying out the welcome mat for more aliens to come in and steal more land. The last thing Israel would want is real democracy -- whereby each Palestinian gets a vote.

Zionist Israel is on the wrong side of history. It is now only a matter of time.

slumdog

If you know about it, chances are you read it or heard about it in some form of mainstream media. You are posting on a MSM site. Please do not attempt to tell other people how to get their news when you avail yourself of mainstream news whenever you choose to yourself. Reports of what going on in the occupied territories are pretty much daily. You would have to be hard of hearing or sight impaired not to know about them.

That was some brilliant writing! You should go to Hollywood.

WilliBJUL. 27, 2014 - 07:59PM JST

What? Where did you get that from? "Bibi" can not "admit" admit anything like that, because it is complete nonsense.

I have an issue with the term “admit” myself but…. this is the first paragraph of a 6/30/14 article from Reuters:

(Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu accused Hamas on Monday of involvement, for the first time since a Gaza war in 2012, in rocket attacks on Israel and threatened to step up military action to stop the strikes.

Given the sophistication of Israeli intelligence gathering I would say that Netanyahu would be in a position to make that kind of statement and I am inclined to take his word for it.

The fact of the matter is that there was incessant rocket fire into Israel, from Gaza, all throughout 2013 and into the first half of 2014. The pace started to pick up in the spring and dozens of rockets were fired in March alone but…… like Netanyahu said, it wasn’t Hamas and Israel knows it. In the same Reuters article Netanyahu “cautioned Hamas, the most powerful militant movement in the Palestinian enclave, to halt the attacks.” What Netanyahu and Hamas both knew was that, for the most part, those rockets were coming from the al-Quds Brigades; the military wing of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Hamas might not have been lighting the fuses on those rockets directly but two possibilities come to mind; either the PIJ was operating with Hamas approval or Hamas was losing its grip on the situation in the Gaza Strip. I think the message that Netanyahu was trying to convey was; that the rocket attacks were unacceptable to Israel and Hamas should either get control of the situation (i.e. the PIJ) or prepare to get busy with Israel.

Of course there’s always the chance that the quoted sentence actually meant to say that it was the first time Netanyahu accused Hamas since 2012.

As long as these freaks keep thinking they are the "Chosen Ones" and that "this is my land" then there will never be peace. The West stole it and the Palestinians just want their freedom, land and culture back. A million dollars a day from the US buys a lot of everything!

I don't see a lot of pro-Israeli comments here with very many facts, and a lot of lies and slander of the Palestinians.

Sadly, you have the whole debacle twisted.

parroted by the disingenuous

This was a 2012 report by the Institute for Palestine Studies specifically about Hamas tunnel construction.

"A similarly cavalier approach to child labor and tunnel fatalities damaged the movement’s standing with human-rights groups, despite government assurances dating back to 2008 that it was considering curbs. During a police patrol that the author was permitted to accompany in December 2011, nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies…"

Human right groups "raised concerns" regarding "child labor in the tunnels" as early as 2008.

Children who die at the hands of Hamas are equally deserving of our sympathy.

I grew up constantly hearing about this conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. It was always on the news. My grandparents talked about it a little bit, but seemed a bit perplexed by it all. Even as I got older I could not really make sense of it. Just so much garbage spewed by both sides, some of it compelling, some of it suspect. Some of it seemingly based on fact and some seemingly based on myth and hype. Some of it based on 2000 year old history and some based on religion, and those last two are the first I dismissed.

But one day, I simply had enough. I got sick of all this BS, and hodge podge of information. So I resolved to study this conflict in detail and finally get some real answers to how and why this is happening. I did not start with any bias toward anybody. I read information concerning both sides, from both sides, and from third parties. I did this literally for weeks before I formed a conclusion. And I found that the truth is extremely simple, yet wrapped up in all this garbage.

The truth is as Yabits says. What this all boils down to is that you have one group of people lording over another, denying them their rights and freedom. Some of those people are fighting back. We have seen this over and over throughout human history. This is the core of the entire thing. All the rest comes after.

And when people cannot or will not see that, I so very much want to accuse them of being one of the people who wrap it in garbage to suit some sort of agenda. But I think its just as often true that they are just as ignorant about the conflict as I was, but chose to take a side based on lies and red herrings, as people so often do with just about anything. They did not take the time to study in detail like I did, or gave up before they could form a proper conclusion.

I know that Hamas, and before them, the PLO committed terrorist attacks and murders of civilians and lots of other evils. But the pro-Israel side seems to have a blind spot for seeing Israel's state terrorism for what it is.

On Dec. 4, 1948 Albert Einstein sent a letter to the New York Times accusing Menachem Begin and his party of fascism and terrorism. Begin's legacy lives on in Israel today. Einstein saw where all this was going. You cannot have peace with fascist and terrorist policies. The Israeli government is the true impetus of this cycle. There is no way that all the Palestinians will just accept being non-citizens without a country of their own. Its obvious it will never happen. But that is what Israel keeps demanding. Anyone with a mind to be honest and fair will eventually see that given enough study of this conflict. You just have to get through the hype.

japonaise,

Thank you for reading the linked, original text, which in no way supports the statement:

about 200 Palestinian children were killed digging those tunnels used by Hamas for terrorist purposes

Hamas themselves admitted that at least 160 children had died in the Gaza-Egypt tunnels. Nowhere was it written that children had been digging tunnels. The tunnels in question were commercial.

Yes, it's an appalling tragedy that children have to work and die in an attempt to feed their families. Yes, Hamas is partly responsible in that it failed to protect those kids who died during their administration.

But why were the tunnels necessary in the first place, japonaise? Kindly answer that.

But one day, I simply had enough. I got sick of all this BS, and hodge podge of information. So I resolved to study this conflict in detail and finally get some real answers to how and why this is happening. I did not start with any bias toward anybody. I read information concerning both sides, from both sides, and from third parties. I did this literally for weeks before I formed a conclusion.

It is heartening to hear you resolved to study about this. I was born into this conflict and have lived it through friends and family, who lived there or are still there, every day of my life. I don't see how "weeks" of studying it (I'm interested to hear how you studied it) can lead to a definitive conclusion.

The Israeli government is the true impetus of this cycle

Many in Gaza and the West Bank disagree.

I don't see how "weeks" of studying it ... can lead to a definitive conclusion.

By this statement, I wonder if you have ever truly studied anything. Are you saying you reach conclusions without study and analysis?

Tell me this: How much land on the West Bank that Israel has taken and continues to take for settlements would they give up for peace?

I was born into this conflict and have lived it through friends and family, who lived there or are still there, every day of my life.

And being too close to a conflict loads people with emotional baggage that becomes the very garbage passive observers have to wade through when trying to figure a conflict out.

I don't see how "weeks" of studying it (I'm interested to hear how you studied it) can lead to a definitive conclusion.

I am not saying I know everything or have all the answers. My focus was on the general themes of the conflict and its direct indisputable source. I poured over the net, reading articles about history and current events and opinion pieces too, I watched news videos and speeches. I sorted the likely from the unlikely. I sorted unsubstantiated hype from information that could be verified. I double checked sources and information. I examined the reputations of writers and speakers.

And yeah, I dismissed people like yourself who criticize while neither denying the key point nor providing a new key point in its place. You, sir, waste my time. BTW, the key point was that a people denied freedom will fight to get it even against long odds. Its as true with the Palestinians as it was for the Irish, the Americans, the Native Americans, the Indians, the Mexicans, the Black South Africans, and the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto.

If you go to the opinion section you can find an opinion piece from Alan Dershowitz from July 12 called "Shattering Myths". That guy is a complete nutbar. I deduced that from his writing. Its really all you need. One poster correctly remarked "He provides no corroborative evidence for anything he is saying.". It was after reading that that I found what that nutbar did to Norman Finkelstein, all because Finkelstein dared to criticize Israel. Dershowitz is a fascist, Zionist nutbar, and too many like him have much too much power in Israel.

Did I just say I love Hamas? No. I hate Hamas. But its easy to see why Hamas exists when you have an oppressive, fascist, colonial power controlling Gaza.

Begin's legacy lives on in Israel today.

No doubt that Begin and the Irgun and Lechi were terrorists. However, the legacy that Begin left to Israel, the Middle East and the world was the first land for peace deal between Israel and another country, Egypt. That peace stands today and is a shining example of how Israel has been willing to make peace.

That was some brilliant writing! You should go to Hollywood.

? What I wrote is the truth. I also did not need the profanity that JT has seen fit to allow in your post to do it either.

Are you saying you reach conclusions without study and analysis?

You obviously missed the emphasis on the word 'weeks', didn't you? You read a couple of books and suddenly you assume yourself to be an expert enough on Middle Eastern politics to claim that Israel has no right to exist and that the correct path is to be against a peaceful two state solution. I disagree and I feel that your feeling that Israel has no right to exist, that there should be no peaceful two state solution and the fact that you have made some pretty huge factual errors in your posts about the subject are three of the reasons why it is clear you have much more studying and analysis to do in order to actually understand the situation.

would they give up for peace

Israel left Gaza. So, that is 100% of Gaza. Israel offered 93 to 95% of the West Bank while in the midst of negotiations in 2000 when Arafat abruptly walked out of the talks shocking both the negotators on the Israeli and Palestinian side because they were in fact very close to a deal and both sides wanted to continue. This is verified by subsequent independent interviews with negotiators from both sides. The problem is that Arafat up and walked away in the middle of the talks and the Palestinians have never seriously returned to the table. Because of Arafat walking away the situation has gotten much, much worse. So, we know Israel was talking about giving up almost all of the West Bank in addition to all of Gaza for peace. Now, we just need leaders on both sides to be willing to talk again. However, it was Arafat that ruined it for Palestinians for the last 14 years. The blood and misery of the last 14 years is because of Arafat not being willing to stay seated at the negotating table. This has been clearly confirmed by then President Clinton who could not hide his anger at Arafat for walking away from negotations that could have given the Palestinians the nation and the peace they have been longing for.

Israel left Gaza.

@slumdog A total willful dispicable obfuscation of the fact that Israel still occupies Gaza. They build a wall around it and manned that wall. They controlled all imports and exports. The Israeli Navy patrols Gazan waters.

in 2000 when Arafat abruptly walked out of the talks shocking both the negotators on the Israeli and Palestinian side because they were in fact very close to a deal and both sides wanted to continue.

Is an agreement really a prerequisite to recognizing the Palestinian declaration of independence of 1988? This is like saying "No, I will not divorce you until you give me the car! And I will beat you bloody until you agree!"

See, this is just proving my point of how the core of the conflict is wrapped in garbage. The Israelis require land before they will let the Palestinians go. Garbage!

You read a couple of books and suddenly you assume yourself to be an expert enough on Middle Eastern politics to claim that Israel has no right to exist and that the correct path is to be against a peaceful two state solution.

I never said I was an expert and I sure as HELL never said Israel had no right to exist. Garbage. Utter garbage! Heaven help anyone who cannot see what garbage that is. If you had one leg to stand on this debate, you just cut it off.

And yeah, I dismissed people like yourself who criticize....

It is your prerogative to dismiss me. All I have been trying to say is that being part-Palestinian, this is a topic that is very dear to me and I don't agree with a lot of comments here claiming that Israel is to blame for the mess in Gaza. In 2005 when Israel finally pulled its people out of Gaza, many Palestinians thought that at last there would be a chance to make a new state, little by little, without fighting. Hamas however saw differently and shattered all hopes when it decided that Gaza was not enough, they wanted more, and started firing rockets, knowing full well that Israel would retaliate.

its easy to see why Hamas exists

Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006 because they were sick of the corruption of Fatah and were sick of seeing millions of dollars in aid going to people like Arafat when ordinary Palestinians were suffering. I wonder if Hamas ever decided to hold another election (last one was 8 years ago) if people would still vote for them.

You call this "emotional baggage", I call it caring for friends and relatives.

A total willful dispicable obfuscation of the fact that Israel still occupies Gaza.

If you feel I am in error, just say so. Please do not make assumptions of 'A total willful dispicable obfuscation'. I am aware that Israel controls the air and water borders of Gaza now. However, Palestinians were elated when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and were freely crossing the border into Egypt for the first time, including when Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip. Negotations were in the works for even more border control for the Palestinians and for even more, but those hopes were quickly dashed away by Hamas. These are facts, not obfuscation.

Is an agreement really a prerequisite to recognizing the Palestinian declaration of independence of 1988?

? Sorry, you are not making a lot of sense here. Obviously both sides thought there was something to negotiate about as they both sent teams of negotiators to Taba to negotiate for a peaceful settlement to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. Just because you have suddenly decided there was nothing to talk about does not change that.

The Israelis require land before they will let the Palestinians go

? Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Resolution 242 clearly states that the peace settlement is a land for peace settlement based on the pre 67 borders. In looking clearly at the recognized translation of that resolution, one understands that it is not a requirement that the new borders be the exact pre 67 borders. The peace settlement is supposed to take into account the security issues of both sides. The 2000 negotiations were based on 242, as have all the discussions on the issue. Israel would be giving up land for peace, just as they have done with Jordan and Egypt.

I never said I was an expert and I sure as HELL never said Israel had no right to exist.

May I suggest that you need to relax and learn to follow a conversation? I was not quoting you, nor was a responding to you. I was responding to yabits and my response stands. Try to read more carefully before going off the handle.

The problem is that Arafat up and walked away in the middle of the talks

Here's the perspective of Robert Malley, an observer at Camp David:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/08/opinion/fictions-about-the-failure-at-camp-david.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Myth 1: Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions.

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership. Moreover, the summit occurred at a low point in Mr. Arafat's relationship with Mr. Barak -- the man with whom he was supposed to strike a historic deal. A number of Israeli commitments, including a long-postponed Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and the transfer to Palestinian control of villages abutting Jerusalem, remained unfulfilled, and Mr. Arafat believed that Mr. Barak was simply trying to skirt his obligations

Myth 2: Israel's offer met most if not all of the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations.

Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past -- whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective.

Myth 3: The Palestinians made no concession of their own.

Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises.

And here are the results of a poll taken in the West Bank and Gaza after the summits:

Overall, 68% of the Palestinian public thought Arafat's positions on a final agreement at Camp David were just right and 14% thought Arafat compromised too much while only 6% thought Arafat had not compromised enough.

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2000/p1a.html

SenseNotSoCommon,

Thank you for the article. I would like add one comment you did not paste from the article:

I was at Camp David, a member of the small American peace team, and I, too, was frustrated almost to the point of despair by the Palestinians' passivity and inability to seize the moment. But there is no purpose -- and considerable harm -- in adding to their real mistakes a list of fictional ones. Here are the most dangerous myths about the Camp David summit.

So, while it is very good you are adding some much needed information to the discussion, it should be noted that Robert Malley is clearly in the camp that I am in that believes the Palestinians did not seize on the wonderful chance they had to make peace.

The fact is that Arafat let the chance for peace slip away and walked away from the talks. Malley agrees with this as do many others who were involved in the process. The two sides were extremely close to making a deal and there was no reason for Arafat to have up and walked out of process. It was his decision to do so that has led to the last 14 years of misery for the Palestinians.

The fact of the matter is that both sides were reaching agreements about many topics. There was actually quite a bit of agreement regarding Jerusalem as well.

Please look at this site:

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=32

This topic can be considered in three parts: allocation of portions of Jerusalem to each side; administration of the city; and control of the holy places. Using the Clinton principle (Palestinians get the Arab areas, Israelis get the Jewish areas), the parties worked through the many sub-issues involved in allocating land to each side and, with the exception of a few neighborhoods, both sides felt the results were clear, even by the time the negotiation ended on Saturday.

Regarding the administration of the city, agreement was probable regarding the Palestinian view that there should be no governing unit that could infringe on the Palestinian claim to full sovereignty in its part of the city

In short, there was reason on the last day of Taba to believe that with four or five more days of negotiating, a framework agreement for most but not all issues was possible.

With such positive progress, I cannot see any good reason whatsoever for Arafat to have left the talks. None. I can clearly see at least 14 years of misery why he should have stayed and continued talking.

With such positive progress, I cannot see any good reason whatsoever for Arafat to have left the talks. None. I can clearly see at least 14 years of misery why he should have stayed and continued talking.

Exactly. Think how different the lives of ordinary Palestinians could have been.

Think how different the lives of ordinary Palestinians could have been.

I agree. It is truly heartbreaking to realize just how close they came in 2000. If only the talks could have continued to the end. We would now be commemorating 14 years of peace instead of talking about another confrontation. I will never give up hope that another chance will come, but I will also never forget how close they came in 2000.

The page I linked is quite balanced and I encourage readers to have a look. Personally, one of the saddest quotes is this one:

As Taba ended, there was general talk about further steps. One proposal was a meeting of Barak and Arafat, before the election, to achieve an undefined breakthrough or to agree on a framework. Another suggested reconvening the negotiators after the election, with the goal of reaching agreement by April 30. Some planning toward further meetings did occur, but a bitter speech by Arafat on Sunday, January 28, in Switzerland, attacked Israel with language completely at odds with the Taba negotiations, and that marked the end of the process.

I don't agree with a lot of comments here claiming that Israel is to blame for the mess in Gaza.

@japonaise Those buildings in Gaza turned to rubble. They did not just collapse.

But perhaps you are more strictly referring to the political mess? Well, homes and buildings in rubble have got a lot to do with that.

In America I grew up in a sea of racists. They would blame Blacks for their own plight and act like slavery and apartheid never happened. They constantly belly ached that slavery and apartheid were over, and now Blacks were free to do what they want. Yet, they are still poor, with no work ethic. These people, who grew up in stable homes with big houses and large green lawns, could dare point a finger and blame people who came from nothing for not pulling themselves up by the bootstraps to be on even footing with them.

Yes, I know Gaza is a mess partly for what the Gazan people are doing. But I am not surprised they are doing so badly. I am surprised they are doing so well! Its like we are looking at a tree, and you say, if only the tree would grow some leaves and heal that bare spot in its trunk, it would grow and prosper. But you don't seem to understand at all what is happening at the roots, which are in poisoned, acidic soil.

Going back to Blacks in America, look at them now. So many have rose to prominence and fame. So many, I run into online just playing games, and unlike before, I cannot even recognize they are Black by their words and speech patterns because finally, after decades, they are no longer segregated and actually live among Americans as Americans. That took decades. And the transformation is not over.

Yet, here we have Slumdog saying that once Israel took troops and settlers out of Gaza, that overnight, everything should have been much, much better. But he ignores the walls around Gaza, the travel restrictions, the naval blockade, and Israel control of imports and exports. No people in such a situation ever called that freedom. And no people in such a situation were ever functionally healthy. And they won't be for decades after they are free from it, and they are not free from it now. Considering that they are being bombed by vastly superior forces, militants and civilians alike, I would say if Gaza were truly made free today, it would take 150 years for them to become truly functional again.

Fatah and Hamas corrupt? No kidding. I know that. But you seem to be completely ignorant to the root cause.

CT,

If you would like to address me, please do it directly.

Yet, here we have Slumdog saying that once Israel took troops and settlers out of Gaza, that overnight, everything should have been much, much better.

? Things were immediately better. They got worse when Hamas started attacking Israel and using the Egyptian border to smuggle weapons.

But he ignores the walls around Gaza, the travel restrictions, the naval blockade, and Israel control of imports and exports.

I am not ignoring anything. The sanctions were put in place by the US, the EU, Russia and the UN in response to Hamas. The situation was getting better and it can be assumed that they would have continued to get better if it were not for Hamas. Hamas does not care about the lives of Israelis, Gazans or Palestinians in general. Hamas leaders care only about themselves.

Fatah and Hamas corrupt? No kidding. I know that.

Then you should know that this corruption is one of the root causes of this conflict. The corrupt leaders have no reason to have the situation improve for the Palestinian people and lots of reasons in the form of m-o-n-e-y for leaving the situation as it is.

Crush Them, I appreciate your comments but I don't think the situation in Gaza resembles the situation in the US all those years ago. However I am not confident talking about American history because my knowledge is rather limited.

saying that once Israel took troops and settlers out of Gaza, that overnight, everything should have been much, much better.

I don't think anyone believed that, but I do know that a lot of Palestinians thought it would mark a new beginning. Hamas however had other ideas. The naval blockade and other restrictions only came into being AFTER Hamas started launching rockets and suicide bombers into Israel. People say that these are the moves of a desperate people, but they are not. Palestinians are desperate but they want a chance to start new lives, without Israeli retaliation for Hamas' attacks. If the poor Palestinians could only find leaders who cared as much about their welfare as they do about the destruction of Israel, then maybe they would have a chance of a better life.

Fatah and Hamas corrupt? No kidding. I know that. But you seem to be completely ignorant to the root cause.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that. All I know is that Palestinians deserve rulers who are not corrupt and who do not siphon off money for themselves. It pains Palestinians to see photos of their leader living a life of luxury in Qatar (and before that Syria), while they suffer.

Thanks, Slumdog

Personally, what really sticks out in Malley's commentary is:

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership.

Jeremy Pressman, in the Journal of Conflict Studies, provides further background to Arafat's position:

...popular Palestinian discontent grew during the Oslo peace process because the reality on the ground did not match the expectations created by the peace agreements. From 1993 - 2000, many aspects of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip deepened rather than abated. Palestinians expected their lives to improve in terms of freedom of movement and socioeconomic standing; when both worsened significant resentment built up in Palestinian society.

http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/view/220/378

Added to this, Arafat's approval rating back home was not high - just 39%, and he'll have been keenly aware that key elements of the discussions wouldn't resonate well on the streets. The earlier referenced poll helps us better understand the context:

On Palestinian position on Jerusalem: 57%: too much of a compromise

On Palestinian position on statehood and borders: 51%: too much of a compromise

On Palestinian position on settlements: 55%: too much of a compromise

On Palestinian position on security arrangements: 68%: too much of a compromise

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2000/p1a.html

but a bitter speech by Arafat on Sunday, January 28, in Switzerland, attacked Israel with language completely at odds with the Taba negotiations, and that marked the end of the process.

According to Friel, H (Ed.) Chomsky and Dershowitz : On Endless War and the End of Civil Liberties, 2013, Kindle., at Davos, Arafat condemned Israel's use of non-conventional weapons and punitive economic measures against the Second Intifada, before trying to soften his tone. The negotiations process was actually ended by Ehud Barak, not Yasser Arafat.

I'll keep calling out the lies, and JT delete them if you must.

Israel left Gaza. So, that is 100% of Gaza.

That is a lie. Israel still holds an economic blockade on the Gaza Stripe by land, sea and air.

Moderator: You are not to accuse any poster of lying.

Yes there is a maritime blockade but if there wasn't, missiles sent from Iran to Hamas earlier this year would have got through.

So Israel can arm itself with free US weapons but Hamas can't? Why does one side deserve respect, free weapons and full media access and the other does not? No disrespect Japonaise, but I don't understand how you can abandon your fellow brothers and sisters?

There is a land blockade imposed by Egypt.

So what possible grievances could Palestinians have against Israel, japonaise?

Thanks, Slumdog Personally, what really sticks out in Malley's commentary is:

You are welcome. It is very refreshing to converse with someone who does not feel the need to resort to hyperbole or fake quotes as some have done. I agree with what you have said. This is also mentioned in the link that I provided as well. Neither Arafat nor Barak were in a popular or strong position when the negotiations took place. Which to me was all the more reason to have stuck with the talks and worked them out until successful. They were in fact almost there. This is shown by comments of those who were there. Then, Arafat went to Switzerland and made that horrible speech. Sharon ended up winning the election and the Second Intifada started and the area has never been anywhere near that close to peace since.

According to Friel, H (Ed.) Chomsky and Dershowitz : On Endless War and the End of Civil Liberties, 2013, Kindle., at Davos, Arafat condemned Israel's use of non-conventional weapons and punitive economic measures against the Second Intifada, before trying to soften his tone.

Well, it seems to me that when you have just made the kind of progress that was made at Taba and Shimon Perez gets up to speak at Davos and showers Arafat with praise that Arafat would have held his tongue. The Second Intifada was not Barak's fault and Barak was in danger of losing the election to the man whose fault it was, Ariel Sharon. Basically, Arafat succeeded in handing the election to Sharon and ruining any chances for further talks. Also, the general consensus of the people involved was that Arafat walked away from the talks because of the speech he made in Davos. As noted in the link I provided, Arafat's speech made it quite clear that he was no longer interested in talks. His speech made no sense otherwise when you consider the timing of it.

Thanks, Slumdog.

Let's remember that Ariel Sharon, forced to resign as Defence Minister after being rebuked as responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacres, paid an inflammatory visit to Jerusalem months before Davos (Erhud Barak had told the PA that the government was powerless to stop him).

Arafat's listing of grievances - IDF's use of depleted uranium; assassination; torture and demolitions - didn't come out of nowhere, and he was obviously frustrated that potential partners in peace were still tightening the screws (as a sop to the Right?) on the Palestinians, whose own job was to bring their people to peace and peace to their people (please note the distinction).

Anyway, running out of battery, Slumdog. Thanks for the conversation!

but I don't understand how you can abandon your fellow brothers and sisters?

I have not abandoned them. What I absolutely hate with all my being is the leaders, Hamas and its friends, who should be caring about the welfare and well-being of their own citizens but do not. They watch them die, they waste millions that could be used to build up Gaza, they live in splendour while everyone else barely gets by. How do you think Palestinians feel when they see Israel doing everything in its power to protect the lives of all its citizens while Hamas is doing everything in its power to have all the more of its own citizens die. I have not abandoned Palestinians, but I have abandoned their so-called leaders.