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Gaza truce proposed after Israeli shell kills 30 near U.N. school

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Check out "Hamas television celebrates Israeli deaths" on YouTube.

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I hope this latest barbarous act will finally kill the lie that Israel is simply taking out Hamas militants who shoot their mostly ineffective rockets into Israel. The Israelis are using collective punishment. As you read this innocent children are being killed by Israeli bombs. Hospitals are overflowing with wounded innocent people, many of whom will die because Israel's blockade has blocked medicines and other humanitarian aid to Gaza (it has done so before rockets were an issue). If you support Israel's rape of Gaza you should be ashamed of yourself.

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The images coming out of Gaza will only increase the terroist threat, worldwide.

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Hamas and the militants intentionally mix themselves with the civilian population, they intentionally use traditionally "off limits" areas like schools and mosques to stage attacks, and they intentionally attack humanitarian supply lines that Israel provides. They make no distinction between civilian or military on their side or in Israel, then claim "collective punishment" when Israel is forced to respond in a way that makes it impossible to separate civilian and military themselves due to Hamas' tactics.

Hamas cannot stop Israel. The only thing that can stop Israel is international pressure. Hamas doesn't create international pressure by firing rockets into Israel. That has the opposite effect. But they can create international pressure by making civilian casualties a requirement with any Israeli response. By forcing Palestinian civilians into the conflict Hamas is collectively punishing them in order to gain a strategic advantage.

The shelling near the school is a defeat for Israel and a victory for Hamas. It will create pressure on Israel to stop while Hamas knows they have no intention of stopping. Hamas rockets hit two schools in Israel last week, the only difference being that those particular schools had been evacuated beforehand.

Israel does not want to stop their offensive until more damage has been inflicted on Hamas, and the school incident will create pressure on them to stop, so actions like that work against them and should have been prevented. This was a mistake on Israel's part and they will face the consequences because of it. With less than 150 civilians killed after tons of weapons being fired, Israel has demonstrated that they have no interest in harming civilians, but one poorly planned attack and a week's worth of headlines and photos will create a loss in the perception game no matter what the reality is.

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Israeli tank fire killed up to 40 Palestinians at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip today, medical sources reported.

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The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded.

So Isreal says.

The school, like many other schools and shelters were marker by GPS coordinance.

You can believe Isreal if you like, I tend to believe that they are lieing. That's my opinion. < :-)

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It's Genocide

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Hamas is counter-attacking all over Europe!

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I just watched on CNN that there were 3 Schools bombed by Israel.

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buttamimi: You need to place your anger at the Hamas (unless your an anti- . They are the one who broke the cease fire. They are they one who are hiding among children/shielding themselves among the civilians. All the while they continue to fire the rockets.

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If America withdrew its unconditional support from Israel, would they be so bold, I wonder. Rather, they might be forced into treating Gaza and the rest of Palestine as a sovereign nation instead of as an uppity slave who needs a good slap to keep him in line. Then there would be less support for Hamas and terrorism just wouldn't be a problem. When you cut off a nation's entire economy, they're bound to retaliate in whatever pathetic way they can. If you then use that retaliation to step on them all the harder, then you're just a jackboot bully boy.

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adaydream

So Isreal says.

So do the Palestinians. From the article, "Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area."

Hamas celebrates civilian deaths. Hamas is ultimately responsible.

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These people hate each other and as a result the fighting will most likely never stop. There is also the possibilty that violence will spread to other parts of the world based solely on this issue. Hope for the best.

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It sure is genocide, by any definition.

As usual, Israel will deny or make excuses for their actions. Many times, their excuses have turned out to be complete lies. Their plan is genocide, they started this genocide plan over 60 years ago, this latest attack is simply the next step. When will the world wake up?

Hamas does not celebrate the deaths.

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Why should Israel open its borders to its enemy while the so called "friends" of the Palestinians such as Lebanon and Egypt won't open theirs?

I tend to believe Israel as no matter how you look at this situation, Hamas wins on all fronts and Israel gains nothing. If you won't believe that Hamas is capable of hiding amongst its own, then you probably don't believe they also send their own kids on suicide missions to be martyrs.

Syria says "Hamas will talk peace if Israel leaves".. well, why didn't they do that before?

From a friend who works for the UN here in Tokyo tells me that Hamas is also preventing people from leaving, I have no reason to not believe her.

Now we have AQ#2 Ayman al-Zawahiri claiming this is Obama's fault and "also calls Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, a "traitor" for keeping his borders closed to Palestinians." And has called on Muslims world wide to attack Jews and Westerners the world over....... Now, what are we supposed to do now?

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It's Genocide

Spare us the drama. If it were genocide, Gaza would be gone by now. As long as Hamas continues to fire rockets, Israel is going to respond. Hamas terrorists love civilian deaths, on both sides.

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notginger: If America withdrew its unconditional support from Israel, would they be so bold, I wonder. Rather, they might be forced into treating Gaza and the rest of Palestine as a sovereign nation instead of as an uppity slave who needs a good slap to keep him in line."

That is like saying if the rest of the entire Muslim world pulled their support for the Palestinians, perhaps more of them would accept Israel as a nation and do like many of their peers on the other side.

Then there would be less support for Hamas and terrorism just wouldn't be a problem.: Nope, can't have Jews living next door. Who sent the Jews into diaspora in the first place?

When you cut off a nation's entire economy, they're bound to retaliate in whatever pathetic way they can." What economy? There never was an economy to cut off in the first place.

If you then use that retaliation to step on them all the harder, then you're just a jackboot bully boy." Oh, so AQ calls for attacking us all over is rational? Its ok for them to attack wantonly but no one else... I see how this works.

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I've been throwing my shoe at the TV all day. I'm going out now to Target to buy a big new flat screen for my living room wall.

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My dear Israel compatriot, Hamas militants is hiding like chicken within Gaza civilians, and Gaza civilians did nothing to prevent this because of same faith..thus civilians deaths is unavoidable..want to blame someone, blame Hamas first for all the terror and aggression. Gaza civilians must first reject Hamas and send all of them to hell for causing this WAR and to prevent any further civilians casualty. Next, Israel must effectively conquer Gaza and enforce military rules to weeds out any resistance and banned all media from entering the area.Israel must annexed Gaza as part of their country and re-educate all Gaza civilians.Let the Gaza civilians choose between a new ruling Israel government, or face possibility of genocide...

From..H

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Joker, Indeed, the one-state solution would be best, with everyone treated equally and with everyone having an equal vote. If done in a fair and just manner, I'm sure many exiled Palestinians would be happy to return home.

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What is pathetic abotu this whole Palestinian State deal is that sixty years ago, if Arabs had merely recognized Israel when she declared her independence, instead of launching a wipe-out war with the intent being to wipe out Israel, there would be an independent Palestinian State right now!

However, because the Muslims and Arabsi n the Mid-East are so hard hearted, stiff-nekced, and rabid in demolishing Israel we have this new flare up....and what is totally amazing is that, agian, Israel is being told to "back off", when she is merely responding to nearly three years of unabated, incessant rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip, thanks to Hamas being given control. This attack today is just another example of Hamas firing rockets from positions where they could claim civilian deaths, basically, imbedding their rocket launchers in civilian zones. Pathetic! And Hamas clams to have the Palestinians' best interests in mind? More like their own!

There will be no peace between the Palestinians and Israelis so long as Hamas, Hizboullah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs, Fatah, the PLO, and other terrorist organisations in the Gaza Strip and West Bank continue to call for the destruction of Israel. ISRAEL WILL NEVER BE DESTROYED! They may as well give up now and be friends wth Israel.

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They may as well give up now and be friends wth Israel.

but then those in control of Gaza would lose their funding from those who use the Palestinians as cannot fodder to make life hell for Israelis.

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So Israel bombs a school, killing quite a number of civilians, and you guys are still coming on here insisting that this is 100% Hamas' doing, and that 'Israel wants peace', etc.

I always love the image of what you guys say: Israel rolls a tank up to a bunch of civilians and points the barrel at them saying, "We want peace! It's your fault we are now going to kill you!"

Of course, I say I love it because that's not really the case, Israel clearly cannot say, "We want peace" and then start a major assault at the same time; it just doesn't work that way. I'm just pointing out how utterly foolish anyone is who thinks that this is 100% one side's fault and 0% the other's.

I agree with nearly everyone on here in pointing out that Hamas does shoulder a lot of the responsibility for what's happening, but again, you are trying to take that as a means of deterring the headline and major point of this thread: Israel's offensive, whether intended or not, has just resulted in the shelling of a UN school. It's not the first time they've done it either. Israel bombed a UN outpost a year or so back and killed a Canadian and a couple others, I believe. No apology whatsoever for the obviously poor intelligence (reports and people).

Anyway, it's a sad state of affairs all around, and I hope it ends soon, but as I said last night Israel has put itself in a bit of a conundrum: a) backs off and looks weak after Hamas gains strength through the sympathy and support of a lot of countries -- or rather, Israel gains the scorn of a lot of countries and loses strength, or (b) keep on fighting and killing civilians, inCREASING the scorn to Israel and making Hamas stronger.

The longer Israel stays in there and keeps killing innocents the worse it looks for them, and the more Hamas and the Palestinians take on the role of freedumb fighters and sufferers. And yet, to back out now would certainly mean they rise up again with even more power, especially since Israel stated, clear-cut, that it's objective was neither to destroy Hamas nor to retake Gaza.

So again, a pretty little pickle Israel set for itself. This massive incursion into Gaza could well spell out their own demise in many respects. I have my doubts they can truly crush Hamas, and we've all seen and know that such aggression, particularly when the aggressor kills so many civilians, only emboldens and make terrorists grow -- making the entire region less safe (we've seen it in Iraq).

Idiots, the lot of them.

That's probably all I'm going to post on this thread -- no one seems to be learning either way and we're seeing the same posts ad nauseum.

Pro-Israelis: This is all Hamas' fault! If they stop the rockets, we'll -- errr... ISRAEL -- will stop the assault.

Pro-Palestinians: Hamas are indeed idiots, but they are fighting (or have been launching the rockets) into areas Israel took in the '67 war, and they should give it back.

Fence-sitters: This is the fault of both, not one party, and nothing good will come of what's happening.

The comments aren't changing.

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Read. Think.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

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This is War..and in war people regardless of age, gender and background could be killed deliberately or accidentally..and this WAR IS A NEW YEAR PRESENT FROM HAMAS for their stubborn belief in DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL PEOPLE AND STATE..

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JxJ; Not much thinking going on there then. Israel will not achieve it's objectives via military means.

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So Israel bombs a school, killing quite a number of civilians, and you guys are still coming on here insisting that this is 100% Hamas' doing, and that 'Israel wants peace', etc.

smitty, you can't be telling me Hamas is seeking peace while having its allies and their members, while not using tanks, but somethings just as bad. Just because you don't have a big gun doesn't mean your killing with a knife isn't as messy.

And mind you, just because many here are pro-Israel in this fight doesn't make us war mongers. I have yet to met a person from Israel who would ever say kill the Arabs/Muslims, but I have met Muslims/Arabs who have said kill the Jews..

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Hamas had been using the school as a launching pad for missles. It wants innocents killed to support its psychotic goals. The bodies of two Hamas jihadis were found at the school along with a missile launcher with anti-tank missiles. In May Reuters ran an article pointing out that the headmaster of the school was a Hamas militant:

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

The media is now accepting all of Hamas' propaganda without question. On CNN last night we were told that although Hamas won't allow international media access, we should accept the casualty figures provided by a Norwegian doctor working at Gaza Hospital. What they didn't bother to report was that this widely quoted doctor, Mads Gilbert, is a radical member of Norway's Marxist Red Party who expressed support for 9/11 and is deeply anti-Semitic.

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Israel clearly has never wanted peace. They want all of Palestine, and more, for themselves. What we have seen in the past six decades is a steady wiping out of Palestine. Since Israel does not want a one-state solution as the Palestinians would quickly outnumber them, they have made life hell for Palestinians to convince them to leave, as Israel gradually expanded its territory.

The only solution I envision is a one-state solution, with each adult having an equal vote, with the right of return for all exiled Palestinians.

With the US practically bankrupted, and most countries likely boycotting Israeli products, I can't see Israel's future as very bright. Maybe they are hoping to go out with a big bang! Are they trying to trigger WWIII?

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Israel’s shells have fallen around three schools, including the girls school hit Tuesday, and a health center for Palestinian refugees.

So there were militants firing a mortar close to a school. Were there militants firing mortars from areas around all three schools and the health center? Why were they hit?

said the two brothers were known to be low-level Hamas militants.

They used to be low-level Hamas militants before until now. Now they are Hamas warriors fighting the aggressors trying to wipe out their country. < :-)

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skipthesong: "smitty, you can't be telling me Hamas is seeking peace while having its allies and their members, while not using tanks, but somethings just as bad. Just because you don't have a big gun doesn't mean your killing with a knife isn't as messy."

Where did I say Hamas is seeking peace? In fact, I have pointed out in previous posts that they are against the idea of international monitors; one of Israel's stipulations for a cease-fire. Hamas won't even begin to look at peace until Israel ceases the assault and lifts the blockade. Even then, I don't think the goons in Hamas will stop firing rockets until Israel takes a serious look at putting their borders back to the pre-'67 war borders.

"And mind you, just because many here are pro-Israel in this fight doesn't make us war mongers. I have yet to met a person from Israel who would ever say kill the Arabs/Muslims, but I have met Muslims/Arabs who have said kill the Jews.."

Agreed. However, sadly, there are quite a number of pro-Israeli posters who ARE warmongers (despite being never having the courage to go and fight themselves), and it often comes down to simply agreeing with their president, or just hating/being afraid of what they don't understand.

I also agree with what you said about Jews vs. Muslims, although I do wonder if you've actually met in person any Muslims who would outright say they want to kill Jews. I haven't met a Jew who has said such things towards Muslims (although a number of my Jewish friends hold quite a bit of resentment towards Arabs in general).

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"What they didn't bother to report was that this widely quoted doctor, Mads Gilbert, is a radical member of Norway's Marxist Red Party who expressed support for 9/11 and is deeply anti-Semitic."

I knew it was only a matter of time! Now that world-wide support is building against Israel's actions, the anti-Semite card is being played.

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if there was any doubt about the utter contempt for Jews and their right to self determination, one only has to look at sabiwabi's call for the destruction of Israel.

anti semitism runs deep amongst muslems. i had the opportunity to hear the hatred first hand in my travels around the middle east as well as here at home from the mouths of military officers of so called friendly arab states.

Israelis know this and live with the reality that any sign of weakness will result in their destruction.

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Come on Hamas...stop firing the rockets into Israel.

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smitty, all cards are going to be played, be it the anti-semite card or the anti-Muslim card. Let's all be mature enough to look beyond that at this moment.

Yes, I've noticed your posts against Hamas and I wasn't actually pointing to you, but to the readers of your post.

"Even then, I don't think the goons in Hamas will stop firing rockets until Israel takes a serious look at putting their borders back to the pre-'67 war borders" Well, before the borders went that way, Israel was attacked. What makes you believe give back that land and all is fine and dandy. Look at Sabi's post, his accusation is widely accepted that Israel is set on a world wide path. I heard a caller into fox radio saying something that the star of david represents such an accusation and it is this that is going to keep the war against the Jewish state.

Yes, I have met Muslim who have said such things and I have also met Anglos who think the same. Being what I am and my appearance allows me to be a member of such conversations; I believe I have told you that many mistake me or ask me if I am Arab or Middle Eastern.

What the world needs to come to terms with is, if the world cares enough about this situation, is nail down whether the Jewish state should be allowed to exist or not and if it is to exist either the people of the Gaza accept Israeli citizenship like many have or cut all ties to anti-Israeli countries.

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Israel may well remove Hamas - only to see the passing of a Palestinian administration --with sufficient stature to bring order-- vanish; then who moves in to the vacuum? The Israelis may well remove a danger only to see it replaced with a much more aggressive and extreme one: al-Qaida? As Colin Powell said, 'You break it. You own it'. The Israelis seem to be very much like the Americans here who, not so long ago, ran headlong into Iraq only to be exposed, left vulnerable, with no game plan what-so-ever. Not even for the second-half did they have an idea of what to do... and so we're still waiting for the end strategy. Israel, you will secure nothing but a more dangerous future by using military force.

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The only solution I envision is a one-state solution, with each adult having an equal vote, with the right of return for all exiled Palestinians.

The "one state solution" is code for the destruction of Israel i.e flooding the Jewish state with now 4th and 5th generation "Palestinians". Then, when the Muslim Arabs outnumber the Jews, the Infidels can be relegated to Dhimmi status or eliminated altogether like they have been in every other Muslim Arab nation.

But nice try sabi.

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Israel’s military said its shelling at the school ... was a response to mortar fire from within the school

Two residents who spoke to an AP reporter by phone said the two brothers ... were firing mortar shells from near the school.

Helter_Skelter, do you see what I see? The residents' words don't quite jibe with the Israeli military. You don't blow up a building because fire is coming from nearby you know.

So much for being surgical!

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Personally, I just would love to hear some US President tell the IDF, "Gentlemen, this is a terror problem, and we are at war with terrorists. You have a free hand to do whatever you need to do to end terrorism in the Middle East, and we will support you 100%."

If the IDF were dever given a free hand to deal with Terrorism they wat they know how, Hamas, Hizboullah, the Al-Aqsa Martyr's, Fatah, and the PLO would be done inside a month.

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Israel should come up with clearer evidence and if possible photographs that led them to carry out the strike on the school.

Obviuosly it was a little bit more than some captain looking through his binoculars. They have cameras on drones, radio surveillance and other intel.

Also, i have only seen 1 picture of victims of rocket attacks in Israel. The media has suddenly shifted coverage to the carnage in Gaza, but rarely writing that rockets are still falling in Israel.

I believe the short term solution here is to isolate the main populated areas of Gaza, immediate cease fire, allow humanitarian aid, medicine and food in, and prevent Hamas from re-arming. There should also be a safe zone 25km into Gaza to compensate for the increased range of Hamas's rockets.

Now, one thing that the media also has not detailed on, is, who will go to the UN to negotiate on behalf of Hamas? They dont have any leadership that is accountable for the actions of the militants. Even if some person saying they represent Hamas were to go to the UN, the fighters on the street will continue to build and fire rockets at will. That is why a blockade is neccesary.

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Helter_Skelter, do you see what I see? The residents' words don't quite jibe with the Israeli military. You don't blow up a building because fire is coming from nearby you know.

Likeitis........Do you know your position is also completely at odds with the U.N General Secretary?

Ban added that it was “equally unacceptable” for militants to take actions that endanger Palestinian civilians, referring to the practice of militants making attacks from residential areas.

So much for being so far out in left field that even the U.N disagrees with you.

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So much for being so far out in left field that even the U.N disagrees with you.

One side of coin does not define the other. Hamas was wrong. That does not mean Israel is right.

Saying Hamas action is completely unacceptable is not a call for a cavalry charge to blow kids to bits. But I know its hard to keep the trigger happy at rest.

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Many anti-Semitic comments on this page. Very sad, being upset with Israel is one thing, but flaming Judaic people is biggoted. Surprized the mods are letting some of the comments stay as they are off topic.

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First-world leftists like adaydream have always championed Islamic terrorists. Now it's Hamas. It's a true alliance between the two.

First-world land stealers always back up other land stealers lest they feel pangs of guilt.

Precious few here are championing Hamas. But those who have not one negative thing to say about Israel are SUPREMELY suspect. Both are wrong, and at this juncture it is pretty obvious to all who are not COMPLETELY biased that Israel is more in the wrong. Just do a body count. If you cannot see the disparity there, then something is definitely wrong with you.

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If the IDF were dever given a free hand to deal with Terrorism they wat they know how, Hamas, Hizboullah, the Al-Aqsa Martyr's, Fatah, and the PLO would be done inside a month.

Where have I heard this schlock about a short time table before? Some people never learn.

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@Yangyong

"The Israelis may well remove a danger only to see it replaced with a much more aggressive and extreme one: al-Qaida? _

Al qaida fighters are already in Gaza ...for quite a while ... so i don't see how this sentence fits exactly? i mean how worse can it actually get then it is already? they are sending suicide bombers to attack the soldiers troops the whole of gaza is booby trapped and most if not all the civilian population there are more then willing to partaken the human shield method...

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I can't see Israel's future as very bright...Are they trying to trigger WWIII?"

WWIII, better known as Islam's War Against Civilization, started decades ago. Israel is only one front.

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I wouldn’t be surprised if this attack against the school was intentional. Maybe they want to the Palestinians to feel like there is nowhere to hide. Its not the first time Israel attacked well known civilian safety zones or UN posts.

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You're sounding like a certain administration connecting al-Qaida to Iraq. They do not hold a position of authority within Hamas. That is sheer --dangerous-- speculation on your part; and they are not part of the political apparatus of the Palestinians but if they became that, if they filled the vacuum: could it get 'worse' damn right it could, for the Israelis that is. Anyway this is another sideshow --which you've proven you like to visit-- because you didn't address or answer that which was posed; that the Israelis may well remove a danger only to see it replaced with a much more aggressive and extreme one.

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In the event, the bodies of two Hamas militiamen, Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar, were found in the school. They had been firing mortars at the IDF from the school. But don´t expect Pallywood or the CNN to report that.

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The "one state solution" is code for the destruction of Israel

No, the one state solution is what was there before, where Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived in peace in Palestine. I can't see how else to solve this conflict. Not only did Israel grab most of Palestine, they chose the best land and left the Palestinians scattered and divided. It would be difficult to have a viable Palestine, even if Israel respected its pre-1967 borders.

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Of course it is entirely inevitable if Israel fires artillery shells there would be high casualties. Israel kills children on purpose. Mistakes happen one time or two times or even up tp ten times but not 100 times. When Israel is responsible for so many massacres as they have you do not need to udnerstand that massacring the Palestinians is a part of israeli policy.

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In most war zones, the population flees. Why are children still there and in harm’s way? Surely their parents have already died and the children quite unfortunately have been orphaned? Since as a parent – the first and most primal instinct is to protect your children.

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Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth and the people cannot flee. Gaza is an open air prison and the people are trapped in teh Ghetto. Israel well knowing that children had taken cover knowing that if they would fire artillery shells there would be high casualties fired right into the school. Israel is a mass murderer, a child killer, a land thief. The rampage Israel is carrying out in Gaza represents the norm rather than the exception.

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Two thoughts:

1) War is imprecise. No matter how "surgical" the strike or how "smart" the bomb, there will be civilian casualties. No two ways about it.

2) Terrorists intentionally encourage civilian causualties by integrating themselves with urban populations (firing from schools and residential areas, for example). This has two purposes. One, it protects the terrorists. Two, civilian deaths inflame international opinion and enrage the local populace, which it then radicalized against the enemy.

While every guerilla's death weakens Hamas, every Palestinian civilian killed makes them stronger. Israel has done the calculus here and it believes it will come out on top. I'm not so sure about their figures, however.

TJrandom,

The Israelis have been kind enough to drop leaflets and even call ahead to warn civilians of impending air strikes. (It seems difficult to me to, as many posters have, accuse them of deliberately targeting civilians. That's Hamas' bag.) Of course that does nothing to change the fact that THE PALESTINIANS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO-WHERE TO GO. The simply can't leave. So they stay, and get bombed, and all the leaflets and warnings are completely moot. But hey... it's the thought that counts, right?

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Hamas, with their Martyr mandate, do not mind using Children as a political tool. They cannot match Israel man to man so they fight real low and real dirty. They go for the testicles any chance they get. It is the equivalent of Pro boxer getting dragged into a street fight.

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Depleted Uranium weapons and white phosphorous weapons cause horrific injuries and suffering both at the time of its usage and also for many years after. Cancer surgeons in Iraq noticed a marked increase in cancers. These same products have been blamed for many cases of leukaemia in the former Balkans. This also resulted in many troops on both sides suffering from the after effects of such weapons. International law prohibits the use of poisons and forbids the use of weapons with indiscriminate effects, or which cause superfluous injury, or unnecessary suffering or has devastating effects on the environment. Both the above weapons currently in use against the population of Gaza is a war crime. All weapons used by Israel are provided by the United States who are aware of its end usage. Therefore the US and Israel are guilty of acts against mankind.

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Blech. Your data on Depleted Uranium is highly suspect. The main issue with DU is heavy metal concentration in the soil (issues similar to lead poisoning), not cancer. People need to stop freaking out just because they see the word "Uranium". WP is an incindieary. Horrific deaths, I'm sure, but then most deaths in war are.

The funny thing is, you should be here criticizing Israel's use of air-burst munitions in urban areas, when instead you are off chasing conspiracy theories. This is why people don't take the things you say seriously.

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Israel knew very well this was a UN school sheltering civilians. They are deliberately targeting civilians, just like they murdered 4 UN peace keepers when they deliberately bombed an established, well known, clearly marked UN observation post in south Lebanon in 2006. They don't care who they kill, they simply deny, make silly excuses, and eventually say "ooops!". They have done this countless times.

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WP (white phosphorous) is an incindieary. Horrific deaths, I'm sure, but then most deaths in war are.

Horrific indeed, but isn't WP against the Geneva Convention?

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Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

Norwegian medics report the used of depleted uranium in Gaza

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80443&sectionid=351020202

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I should smoke and dust from WP rounds can have toxic effects, causing internal organ damage. 688575 is right to be concerned about their use in civilian areas. My post incorrectly papered over that, which I apologize for.

sabiwabi: The use of incendiary weapons against civilians was banned (by signatory countries) in the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III. The USA has signed Articles I and II, but not Protocols III, IV, and V.

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YangYong gave us a good link, we all should read to see the reality. Many of us knew already, but most of the posters ignore those facts.

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Moderator: The purpose of the discussion board is for readers to post their opinions on the story, not post links to sites carrying other people's opinions.

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Hmmmm... Gaza Strip's population desity is an average 4,118 people/km2, with 1.4 million in the Gaza City greater metropolitan area. It makes a big difference where Israel is dropping its Airburst and WP smokescreens. As always, more information is necessary.

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Gaza Strip's population desity is an average 4,118 people/km2, with 1.4 million in the Gaza City greater metropolitan area

so Hamas should not fight if they cared for their constituents.

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Well you won't find me disagreeing with that sentiment. However I am still interested in knowing whether Israel is using said munitions within the confines of the city. I am also interested in knowing whether Israel is using WP shells or just WP smokescreens, which is an important distinction. Just crying "Israel is using WP!" isn't partiuclarly helpful. Ditto for cluster munitions.

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Sailwind wrote:

Likeitis........Do you know your position is also completely at odds with the U.N General Secretary?

You know, its funny. I did not realize that you were quoting from the above article until just now. Just preceding what you cut and pasted is the following:

At U.N. headquarters, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the Israeli bombardment of U.N. facilities in Gaza “totally unacceptable.” Israel’s shells have fallen around three schools, including the girls school hit Tuesday, and a health center for Palestinian refugees.

Are you interpreting that to mean Hamas has a go ahead to rocket and mortar areas around Gaza strip occupied by Israel since 48? Or that they are free to fire on Israeli forces that have entered Gaza?

It seems Ban and I are in complete agreement Sail. Both sides' actions are "unacceptable". How did you miss that? I hope you get it sorted whatever it is. I am looking forward to more of the brilliance I saw from you a couple days ago.

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I read in the Guardian that Israel claims it fired one shell, but the school was booby trapped and thus the extra explosions.

Explaining its attack on al-Fahora school, the Israeli military claimed that a mortar was fired from the playground, and it responded with a single shell whichkilled known Hamas fighters; the resulting explosion was compounded because Hamas "booby-trapped the school".

Of course, that flies in the face of the two Palestinians who said the mortars were fired from the street.

So can you booby trap a playground so that it only blows up when a shell hits it? Either there was some error or the Israelis are lying like rugs. Yeah, Hamas should not be shooting mortars from school playgrounds or even nearby, but the fact Palestinians are not denying it. Meanwhile, the info from the Israeli side is seriously conflicted, and that is so NOT new that I can hardly give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt.

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Your data on Depleted Uranium is highly suspect.

I'll say. If the Israelis are using DU they are completely nuts. The stuff is for blasting holes in armor, like tank armor. Last I heard, Hamas did not have smuggling tunnels that would fit tanks...

And that brings up the question of why any "free" peoples would have the word "smuggle" attached to their imports of weapons and why they would use tunnels to do it. The more I read the more I understand why Gaza Strip is being described as a "ghetto", and I am reminded of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising the more details I get.

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likeitis,

If explosives were housed in the school, even if the trap was not primed, a shell could set them off. Thats not saying that it was necessarily booby-trapped, however.

They say in war, truth is the first casualty. You'd do well to take every peice of "news" coming out of Gaza with a grain of salt, regardless of the source. Even (especially?) the UN.

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Come on Hamas...stop firing the rockets into Israel.

If reports are to be believed, Hamas leaders are pretty wiped out. I am wondering if Hamas in now a headless zombie who cannot hear your plea.

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They say in war, truth is the first casualty. You'd do well to take every peice of "news" coming out of Gaza with a grain of salt, regardless of the source. Even (especially?) the UN

I agree. News is biased to the newest race in the world, created after Jews were repatriated, the beneficiaries of state sponsored terrorism, The cannon fodder for a broader Islamic mandate, The sacrificial lambs, The newly named Palestinians.

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If explosives were housed in the school, even if the trap was not primed, a shell could set them off. Thats not saying that it was necessarily booby-trapped, however.

Triumvere, as far as I know, all buildings were untouched, save perhaps by shockwaves and flying shrapnel. Most of the dead were on the playground.

You'd do well to take every peice of "news" coming out of Gaza with a grain of salt, regardless of the source.

That I do, some with more salt than others. That is because I know the Israeli military is far more organized than any other group involved. Their "mistakes" are harder to forgive because of that and the fact they remain well armed occupiers while the Palestinians are the oppressed, the occupied, and are mostly armed with rocks. The Palestinians don't stand a snowball's chance in Hell.

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Israeli Foreign Ministry: Preliminary report on Jabaliya School Tragedy

Before you read the link and I have to say it's loaded with some pretty darn interesting details that just didn't seem to make it into the recent articles of HAMAS using UNWAR for launching rockets and mortars in the past.

And a very realistic, in my opinion , overview of the difficulties she faces, and decision making process involved when having to decide to return fire or not as she advances further into bandit country and taking the fight directly to the enemy.

http://israelinsider.ning.com/forum/topics/israeli-foreign-ministry?page=1&commentId=2018399%3AComment%3A21058&x=1#2018399Comment21058

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decision making process involved when having to decide to return fire or not as she advances further into bandit country and taking the fight directly to the enemy.

Bandit country? Now THAT sir, is a very biased sentiment.

The Israelis knew darned well they would get mortared when they moved into the walled off ghetto known as Gaza Strip. If their solution to getting mortared is to in return, mortar a school area they know darn well is loaded with civilian CHILDREN, then they should have moved further back from the wall, out of rocket range, instead.

If they do not have the heart suffer a bit of mortar fire and take the time to snipe militants or send soldiers in direct pursuit, then they are not getting any support, much less sympathy, from me. They put themselves in harm's way. And they have killed way more than those damned supped up hobby rockets.

Just because the Hamas idiots have no respect for civilians DOES NOT mean Israel gets off the hook. Neither does. The Israelis knew what they were getting into, and if they can't do it right then they should withdraw.

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likeitis

If reports are to be believed, Hamas leaders are pretty wiped out.

The leaders, who may be wiped out, if your reports are correct are now replaced with new leaders. Hamas is an army with rules and a system of leadership replacement.

Also everytime that a Hamas member is killed, another young man or a father who loses a family member becomes a new enlistee into Hamas.

This is the same thing that happened in Iraq. Except that Iraqi members became insurgents. Still a force to defend their country.

As long as there are Palestinians, there will be Hamas or something else that replaces Hamas. And Isreal's attempts to destroy Hamas will only increase Hamas members. < :-)

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after Israeli shell kills 30 near U.N. school

If that doesn't call for a non-binding resolution, nothing does.

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If Israeli can do to Hamas what the US did to Al Qaeda, then this operation will be a smashing sucess.

The analogy you are looking for is the 06 war with Hezbolla, which only made that terrorist orginazation stronger.

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The leaders, who may be wiped out, if your reports are correct are now replaced with new leaders.

Real leaders are born though, not made by virtue of getting sucked into an empty spot. The numbers that I read were killed would mean a whole lot of unqualified leaders, which to me is the same as not being led. But of course, its Israel trumpeting the number of leaders killed (not to mention 4 low level teenage militants while glossing over collateral damage of 30.) and I sort of doubt their figures.

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Truly, that is one of that sad things about the whole situation. Gaza was previously part of Egypt, but yet the people are not considered Egyptian. In 67, thousands of Arabs fled to Jordan from the West Bank, which was at the time part of Jordan. Yet 40 years later, their descendants are still housed in 'temporary' refugee camps, and again are not considered part of Jordan. Certainly not citizens of Jordan.

The biggest crime in all this is the treatment of these people, not from Israel, but from their Arab brothers, who want nothing to do with them.

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The biggest crime in all this is the treatment of these people, not from Israel, but from their Arab brothers, who want nothing to do with them.

That is an interesting statement. Are you suggesting that if the countries adjacent to Palestinian territory had an opportunity to annex that territory and its people, the adjacent countries would refuse? If so, it would be first time I ever heard of a country turning down free territory! I was under the impression that the surrounding countries, unlike Israel, were actually abiding by U.N. agreed upon borders. That means the Palestinians are not their people and they are not taking them anymore than anyone took the Jews who fled Europe during WWII.

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If Jordan or Eygpt wanted that land, I suspect Israel would agree to a handover, provided they had some guarantees along with it. However neither country wants their land back, for the simple reason, that there are so many extremists there, so much hatred. They have enough problems with the fundies already, Eygpt in particular. They don't want any more of them.

Theres a reason Jordan has housed these so-called refugees in 'temporary' camps for more then 40 years.

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However neither country wants their land back, for the simple reason, that there are so many extremists there, so much hatred.

Earlier you said that Arab nations' treatment of the Palestinians was criminal, and that they want nothing to do with them. Now you justify the sentiments by saying there are so many extremists and so much hatred in Palestinian lands. Are they justified for wanting nothing to do with the Palestinians or are they not?

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The Israelis knew darned well they would get mortared when they moved into the walled off ghetto known as Gaza Strip. If their solution to getting mortared is to in return, mortar a school area they know darn well is loaded with civilian CHILDREN, then they should have moved further back from the wall, out of rocket range, instead.

Interesting that you think taking out a mortar site after they fired upon you should now off-limits because the enemy decided to use a school full of civilians for cover. Great logic, glad your not in charge of a platoon advancing on the enemy and taking fire. You'd get the soldiers underneath you killed.

If they do not have the heart suffer a bit of mortar fire and take the time to snipe militants or send soldiers in direct pursuit, then they are not getting any support, much less sympathy, from me. They put themselves in harm's way. And they have killed way more than those damned supped up hobby rockets.

Great what if this set up to be an ambush? You're better off sticking to subjects that you have knowledge about because when it comes on how to conduct military operations in an urban environment your pretty clueless.

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WilliB: "In the event, the bodies of two Hamas militiamen, Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar, were found in the school. They had been firing mortars at the IDF from the school. But don´t expect Pallywood or the CNN to report that."

Okay, so CNN and 'Pallywood' may not be reporting it, so who is? Where did you get the information that not a single other person has heard or read? Was it a personal blog? Or wait... let me guess... an Israeli news source that won't go on to give any details because it's 'classified'.

Sorry to ask for a link or proof, mods, but in some cases I believe it's relevant. When you have a person possibly making up their own versions of what happened to suit their arguments or win over a little support.

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You'd get the soldiers underneath you killed.

Many military leaders do you know. Its a risk of being a soldier.

I think you want to imply I would get more killed than already are. I agree. However the civilian count would be lower.

You know sail, soldiers don't fight just wars in order to avoid their own deaths. They fight to protect the civilians. Anything else is not a just war.

But then, I would have done more to avoid this fighting. I would have returned to pre-1967 borders before being goaded into this.

Great what if this set up to be an ambush?

Anything could be an ambush! Did I mention snipers earlier? Are you aware the Israelis have planes and spy satellites to gather intel? How about helicopters to drop troops in or even shoot more accurately and personally from the air. Yeah, there are risks. But it is sad and telling that the only risk you will take is with civilian lives.

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