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Israel tells Gazans to brace for war escalation

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yawn!!!

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"Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas predicted a “waterfall of blood” unless all parties adhere to a U.N. call for a cease-fire." LOL There was a cease fire till they broke it. Israel should press on.

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"The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were discussing classified information, said the army also has a fourth stage planned that calls for a full reoccupation of Gaza and toppling of Hamas."

Well, so much for the lies Israel told as to what this is really about.

"The ban was imposed Thursday after the U.N. said two of its contractors in a truck were shot and killed by Israel. The Israeli military said Saturday that its own investigation concluded that its soldiers were not involved."

Yeah, right.

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With over 800 Palestinians slaughtered in Gaza--many of them women and children--something more needs to be said other than "yawn!!!"

One thing you ought to know is that this is not simply a war on Hamas but collective punishment of the sort the Nazis used to unsuccessfully quash resistance movements. The number of dead innocent civilians makes this truth self-evident.

Here is another fact. Israel rejected a Hamas proposal for a cease fire in December. (Go to http://www.antiwar.com/porter/?articleid=14031 for the article about this by Gordon Pather.) Another thing is that Israel violated the cease fire in November by bombing a tunnel in Gaza it said was being made by Hamas for aggressive purposes.

Hamas took the bait, stupidly and retaliated by firing its largely ineffective rockets into Israel.

Whatever the sins of Hamas (which Israel heavily funded once as a counter to the PLO), there can be no question that the Israeli occupation of Gaza and its blockade of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians has been criminal. Rocket attacks notwithstanding, the Israeli rape of Gaza has been an inappropriate response. In fact, as Israeli writer Ran ha Cohen has pointed out in his latest column on Gaza, the slaughter has more to do with politics than rockets. Writing in December 2008 he joked that the rape of Gaza has won five parliament seats for defense minister Barak's Labor Party, making it about 20 dead Palestinians for each seat. To carry the joke further, today the numbers are over 160 dead Palestinians per seat. You can also average two dead UN humanitarian workers killed by Israelis as they were delivering aid to the Palestinians.

Foreign journalists are barred by Israel and Israel has launched a propaganda blitz justifying its Nazi-like actions in Gaza. The US government enthusiastically supports Israel's crimes in Gaza. There is something you can do if the pictures coming out of Gaza of dead and maimed children disgust you. Boycott Israel.

Writing in the Guardian of 10 January 2008, Naomi Klein states: "It's time. Long past time. The best strategy to end the increasingly bloody occupation is for Israel to become the target of the kind of global movement that put an end to apartheid in South Africa." This consists of Boycotts, Disinventment and Sanctions (BDS).

Klein notes: "Every day that Israel pounds Gaza brings more converts to the BDS cause - even among Israeli Jews. In the midst of the assault roughly 500 Israelis, dozens of them well-known artists and scholars, sent a letter to foreign ambassadors in Israel. It calls for "the adoption of immediate restrictive measures and sanctions" and draws a clear parallel with the anti-apartheid struggle."

If you want to know what products and companies to boycott, find "Boycott Israel" with your search engine.

I leave you by emphasizing this fact. There are Israeli Jews who oppose their government's rape of Gaza. They are the voices that the Israeli government especially wants to you not to hear.

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Hamas fighters launched 15 rockets at southern Israel on Saturday in a daily ritual

What complete morons.

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How thoughtful to issue such a warning. Israel are showing good manners and a rspect for their future victims. Israel should get a special award for war etiquette.

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buttamimi: No kidding. In the future perhaps just attaching a bomblet to each pamphlet would suffice. It'd be killing two birds with one stone, anyway.

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Hamas knows Israel's only response to rockets can be a military one. So....why do they fire rockets?

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“The IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) is not working against the people of Gaza but against Hamas and the terrorists only,” the leaflets said in Arabic. “Stay safe by following our orders.” Is this what you call a practical joke?

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Jeancolmar, you can boycot Israel all you want but it ain't gona do much when they can just take money right out of your pockets, ie. US tax dollars going as economic "aid".

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SuperLib: "Hamas knows Israel's only response to rockets can be a military one. So....why do they fire rockets?"

It's perfectly clear to most of the world that it is not your average Palestinian firing rockets into Israel, but radical nutbags who don't care about what happens to anyone else. Why isn't Israel able to figure that out? Why is it they insist on punishing the Gaza as a whole? Anyone who thinks they are not is foolish. Why does Israel insist on hitting UN targets, then say they were firing at Hamas in the area, then deny they fired at all? The resulting UN pull out only hurts the innocents.

I'm sitting on the middle here, but Israel's actions, and the truth about why they are there as it comes to light, are beginning to really disgust me.

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Why is it they insist on punishing the Gaza as a whole?

Punishing Gaza as a whole is not something Israel wants or needs. It makes the military option, the only one they have, more difficult. Hamas is the one who insists on dragging innocents into the conflict by operating amongst civilians. It's a tactical move on their part. It puts pressure on Israel to stop, something Hamas alone cannot do. They need the international community to stop Israel and the best way for Hamas to do that is to make civilian casualties a requirement for any Israeli action.

I don't believe Israel has a policy to attack UN vehicles. You're using one piece of evidence and pretending it's policy. If it were policy then Israel would done a lot more than shooting at one UN vehicle. If you want to see a side who has an actual policy of targeting innocents, then you don't have to look any further than Hamas. If you're disgusted by innocents being targeted then it's hard to believe you wouldn't start there.

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Hamas needs to be wiped out.

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Actually, Sarge it is Israel needs to be wiped. Since they occupying Palestining Territiory. They have violated most UN laws and treaties. If they were really in the right why all the hiding.

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Israel has a policy of promiscuous bombing. The UN convey may have a victim of this or it might have been an intended target by some lower ranked person. The fact is that Israel's main victims have been noncombatants.

Israel had and has other options other than military action. In turned down a peace overture from Hamas in December. As I said, Gaza has less to do with rockets and more to do with internal politics.

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Israel has a policy of promiscuous bombing. The UN convey may have a victim of this or it might have been an intended target by some lower ranked person. The fact is that Israel's main victims have been noncombatants.

Israel had and has other options other than military action. In turned down a peace overture from Hamas in December. As I said, Gaza has less to do with rockets and more to do with internal politics.

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SuperLib: I understand the whole thing about Hamas using civilians as human shields, and it is utterly heinous. However, stating that Israel does all that it can in reducing human casualties is bogus, and the biggest proof of that is with the blockade.

As to the shooting of the UN care-workers, I believe it was intentional. If it were accidental, the Israelis should have simply owned up to it and apologized, offering to take better care to avoid such incidents in the future. As it were they first said one thing, then did an 'independent investigation' and claimed they never fired in the first place. I do believe the shelling of the school house may have been aimed at hitting Hamas fighters, though I also believe they knew full well what the structure in the area, and didn't care who was inside.

Basically, once Israel gives a half-hearted warning, they no longer care who is in their path of fire. Simply dropping leaflets, while better than NOT dropping them, I suppose, doesn't wash their hands of killing innocents. Nor can they simply say, "Well, we warned them with leaflets, didn't we? It's THEIR fault for still being there."

Again, to pretend the only side that gains from targeting innocents is Hamas, you're kidding yourself. Mass targeting of innocents would certainly do no good for Israel, but one UN vehicle here and there helps them in a number of ways, particularly since they seem indeed intent on retaking Gaza. I know that you've stated this is not one of their goals, but it's been indicated that at the very least it is a possibility they are prepared for, and every indication of what's happening points towards them doing just that.

"Punishing Gaza as a whole is not something Israel wants or needs. It makes the military option, the only one they have, more difficult."

How so? If you have people with no access to running water and/or electricity for a number of days, not to mention a lack of food and medical supplies, you have a people that are basically weak and cannot fight back. I'm sorry, but people are right in saying this is akin to the Warsaw ghettos, although I don't believe the Israelis are out for some Final Solution of all Palestinians.

I AM disgusted with how Hamas treats its civilians in this war, and I've stated it a number of times. Going into all sorts of detail about it is flogging a dead horse, in my opinion, and should be considered common knowledge. It's Israel that is committing the shocking behaviour.

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Jeancolmar:

" One thing you ought to know is that this is not simply a war on Hamas but collective punishment of the sort the Nazis used to unsuccessfully quash resistance movements. The number of dead innocent civilians makes this truth self-evident. "

No, it does not. Firstly, the body count is conducted by the Hamas, so you have to take the ratio of "combatants" to "civilians" with a huge bucket of salt.

Secondly, the low body count in itself is astonishing and shows how carefuylly the IDF proceeds. Nothing would be easier than to lob grenades into the densely populated area as "punishment", killing tens of thousands without any risk, the way e.g. Assad dealt with the muslim brotherhood in Hama.

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jeancolmar:

" Israel had and has other options other than military action. In turned down a peace overture from Hamas in December. "

Untrue. There never was "peace overture" from Hamas in December, or at any other time. Hamas has never even recognized the right of Israel to exist; Hamas charter clearly states that its sole goal is to destroy the "zionist entity" as they call Israel.

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WilliB: "No, it does not. Firstly, the body count is conducted by the Hamas, so you have to take the ratio of "combatants" to "civilians" with a huge bucket of salt."

As opposed to a body count carried out by Israel? Excuse me, but while Hamas most likely exaggerates, Israel DEFINITELY lies! What's more, many of the body counts until the past couple of days were carried, out, at least in part, by UN aid workers, as were the reports of dead/wounded filling hospital hallways, etc. It's Israel who says, "Gazans are not doing badly", etc.

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Smithinjapan

It's perfectly clear to most of the world that it is not your average Palestinian firing rockets into Israel, but radical nutbags who don't care about what happens to anyone else.

That's only a part of it.

If another country was attacking nthe United States, I would still take up arms against them. I would fight to my death to protect my country. There is Hamas of course, but there are Palestinian patriots who are fighting Israel with all they have.

Where are the Palestinians supposed to run. In to the sea? How are they supposed to escape the bombing, pitch their tent in the open where they can be picked off like clay pigeons?

This is no different then when the United States attacked Iraq. People who lived normal lives, being teachers, doctors, accountants and police took up arms in defense of their country, right or wrong.

So easy to be with the ones who have all the guns, tanks, jets, ships, fuel and food. < :-)

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Let us try making that quotation again.

The proposal to renew the cease-fire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza. The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza cease-fire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the cease-fire proposal seriously. Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt. The readiness of Hamas to return to the cease-fire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Center, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the cease-fire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza." Pastor said he passed Meshal's statement on to a "senior official" in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) the day after the meeting with Meshal. According to Pastor, the Israeli official said he would get back to him, but did not. "There was an alternative to the military approach to stopping the rockets," said Pastor. He added that Israel is unlikely to have an effective cease-fire in Gaza unless it agrees to lift the siege. The Israeli embassy in Washington declined to comment Thursday on whether there had been any discussion of a cease-fire proposal from Hamas in mid-December that would have stopped the rocket firing. Abu Omar, a spokesman for Hamas leader Khaled Meshal in Syria, told CBS News Wednesday that Hamas could only accept the cease-fire plan now being proposed by France and Egypt, which guarantees an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza as soon as hostilities on both sides were halted. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel would only support the proposal if it also included measures to prevent Hamas from re-arming. The interest of Hamas in a cease-fire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting – five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive – by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by YNet News agency as saying. Israel's rejection of the Hamas December proposal reflected its preference for maintaining Israel's primary leverage over Hamas and the Palestinian population of Gaza – its ability to choke off food and goods required for the viability of its economy – even at the cost of continued Palestinian rocket attacks

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Lots of criticism directed at Israel, but nothing constructive from this group of posters. If Hamas (and yes, it is Hamas and not rogue groups of militants) lobs missiles into Israel, aren't they asking for a response? If Hamas cares one iota about Palestinian lives, it will stop sending rockets and figure out another way to resolve its complaints. Possibly recognition of Israel's right to exist and a rescindence of its pledge to wipe Israel off the map would be enough to get the embargo lifted?

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To restate: Hamas was willing to negotiate a truce with Israel that Israel broke in November by bombing a tunnel it claimed Hamas was digging to kidnap Israeli soldiers, killing several people, supposedly Hamas "militants." In was then that Hamas blundered into shooting off its ineffectual rockets. In December Hamas was willing to continue the truce but Israel refused.

Please note that rockets were fired from Lebanon at Israel but Israel did not launch a full=scale invasion of Lebanon this time. It did not have to. As it did not have to invade Gaza.

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Israel needs to keep the pressure up. It's hard to argue with success = less rocket attacks.

Hopefully in another month or two Palestinians will smart-up and come to the resolution that being a terrorist state isn't the smartest idea.

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So easy to be with the ones who have all the guns, tanks, jets, ships, fuel and food. < :-)

It sure is. I am starting to think that some here are so pro-Israel only because a military victory is basically ensured for Israel. Right and wrong don't matter to some people. Being on the winning side is paramount for some, and the cheif sort of victory that kind of simple mind understands is the military one. As soon as you start pointing out the "hearts and minds" type of victory, they start to lose the plot.

but one UN vehicle here and there helps them in a number of ways, particularly since they seem indeed intent on retaking Gaza.

While it is conspiracy-ish, it is a good point. It would be stupid of Israel to suddenly attack U.N. aid workers. But by merely killing a few, the U.N. is suddenly out the way. And we all know how much Israel just loves the U.N., and how much they want the U.N. to know exactly what is going on.

Obviously, Israel benefits most by media black-out, or even just obfuscation after obfuscation. I think it is abundantly clear that Israel is a lying sack of dung by now. So is Hamas, but hey, that was never in question.

Where are the Palestinians supposed to run. In to the sea?

Israel is blocking that too! And the skies!

The leaflets amount to "Terribly sorry, but odds are good that we will "accidentally" blow you to Kingdom Come. Have a nice day!"

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To restate: Hamas was willing to negotiate a truce with Israel that Israel broke in November by bombing a tunnel it claimed Hamas was digging to kidnap Israeli soldiers, killing several people, supposedly Hamas "militants."

The tunnels can also be viewed as a breaking of the cease-fire. However, in light of the fact that Israel has turned Gaza Strip into a walled ghetto prison, its quite understandable that the people within try to tunnel out. Who the heck wouldn't?

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It's hard to argue with success = less rocket attacks.

Actually, no, its quite easy. All you have to do is value human life more than firepower.

Hopefully in another month or two Palestinians will smart-up and come to the resolution that being a terrorist state isn't the smartest idea.

So would you just quietly sit in the ghetto prison then? Just like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising, sometimes resorting to violence is not really a matter of choice. And those Jews could also be described as terrorists by the brush you are painting with.

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The tunnels can also be viewed as a breaking of the cease-fire. However, in light of the fact that Israel has turned Gaza Strip into a walled ghetto prison, its quite understandable that the people within try to tunnel out. Who the heck wouldn't?

Don't forget Egypt closed the border on their side also. Why do you give them a pass on that?????

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likeitis

Who the heck wouldn't?

Just listen to these posters who condemn Palestinians for trying to get supplies and medicines. They are just terrorists. Right terrorist, trying to raise their families and feed them. < :-)

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Egypt in some ways is no different then Israel.

However, Israel is currently bombing Gaza. Egypt isn't. < :-)

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Just listen to these posters who condemn Palestinians for trying to get supplies and medicines.

They are also trying to get weapons and materials for rockets. No use leaving those out, and no need either. All the patriotic people here would do the same if they had been reduced to what the Gazans have, no matter how high-falutin' they are from the comfort of their computer console.

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adaydream

They just shoot them if they try to cross instead. Note the date of the article. 4 Feb 2008.

Palestinian gunmen and Egyptian forces exchanged fire at the Gaza-Egypt border on Monday, killing one person and wounding 59 others a day after Cairo closed the breached frontier with the Hamas-run enclave.

At least 45 Egyptian policemen and 14 Palestinians were wounded in the clash at the Rafah border crossing, which Hamas Islamists blasted open on Jan. 23 to let Gazans stock up on supplies in defiance of an Israeli-led blockade.

The dead person was identified by local medical officials as a Palestinian civilian. Two Egyptians suffered gunshot wounds and one senior security official sustained fractures from stone throwing, security sources and medical officials said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSL0445608

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tens of thousands of people demonstrated in cities across Europe and in Lebanon, shouting protests against the Israeli offensive in Gaza.

Yeah, mainly Muslims, Socialists, neo-Nazis, and probably a few Anarchists thrown in the mix. I've seen these demonstrations.

So easy to be with the ones who have all the guns, tanks, jets, ships, fuel and food.

adaydream, Hamas still has plenty of rockets. No shortage there.

I AM disgusted with how Hamas treats its civilians in this war, and I've stated it a number of times.

Good to hear, smith, because its Hamas that's ultimately responsible for their suffering.

As it did not have to invade Gaza.

Yes, jeancolmar, it did. The real question is why it waited so long after years of Hamas rocket attacks.

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Hrrmmmm.

The Israelis might pick up a few PR points by providing some humanitarian aid themselves, if they aren't going to cease operations temporarily and let the aid workers in. They are fooling themselves if they think the humanitarian cituation isn't doning serious damage to their credibility on the 'peace' front.

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Egypt claims the border is "open on their side," but the Israeli's control the other, and are keeping it shut. Their credibility is somewhat questionable, however.

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Israel responded to the rocket fire from Lebanon with mortar shots.

I've stopped caring about Israel and Palestine ever since Hamas thought it was a great idea to poke a bear with rockets and Israel's ridiculous heavy-handed response and general attitude toward international opinion and aid groups.

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Well, why not just line them all up and shoot them like dogs. There will always be Gazans who will fight against being treated like captured hampsters.

Israel and Gaza will never be able to come to an agreement. It'll take much more than that. And it's not going to happen over night.

AND, Hamas is the elected government, so like it or not they have to be included in the talks. You can't omit Hamas from this. < :-)

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smithinjapan: I understand the whole thing about Hamas using civilians as human shields, and it is utterly heinous. However, stating that Israel does all that it can in reducing human casualties is bogus, and the biggest proof of that is with the blockade.

The problem is that it's impossible to separate Hamas from civilians and that's because it's how Hamas wants it. Hamas brings in weapons and money that they use to kill Israelis. That puts Israel in a familiar position....help the civilians and give Hamas greater access to money and weapons to kill Israelis, or put in the blockade to limit Hamas but do it at the expense of the civilians. Hamas makes it clear that any help the Israelis give Palestinian civilians will result in more Israeli civilians dying. It's a no-win situation for Israel, and in the end they choose to protect their own civilians over Palestinian civilians.

As to the shooting of the UN care-workers, I believe it was intentional.

That's your opinion, but neither of us will never really know the real answer, so I can only offer an opinion as well. I'm looking at it in terms of what it does to Israel's position, which makes it much, much worse. I don't believe that they would intentionally take an action that makes their goals harder to obtain as a matter of policy. But I can't guarantee that one soldier on the ground doesn't get thoughts into his own head and does what he wants in that moment. There's a recent case in Afghanistan of a Canadian soldier being brought up on charges for murder, but I think you'd scoff at the notion that the Canadian government supports that or uses it as policy.

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Good to hear, smith, because its Hamas that's ultimately responsible for their suffering.

If you had said their "deaths and injuries" it might have been an arguable point. But suffering includes a whole lot more than that. However, I am not at all suprised that you would think they are one in the same.

The real question is why it waited so long after years of Hamas rocket attacks.

When I describe Gaza Strip as being "walled up" do you think I am joking or exaggerating? Israel has complete control of the borders and even air and sea access. Gaza Strip is as controlled from outside as a peoples can be. The situation makes Israel look really, really, really bad already. Its not a surprise when those people do anything at all to hit back.

Anything at all turned out to be mortars and, I am not exaggerating, supped up hobby rockets. Thousands and thousands of those things launched from inside the walls have killed a mere handful of Israelis, Israelis who happen to be on land that the U.N. had set aside for...guess who.

The Israelis with thier spy satelittes, jet planes, tanks, night vision, etc. etc. attacking the Gazans is like a man with a shotgun shooting ducks in a barrel. It is really, really, really, hard to justify that action, but many here are trying...very trying.

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Israel has not and will not reach its objectives. More people will be radicalised. Iran more determined than ever.

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jeancolmar: In December Hamas was willing to continue the truce but Israel refused.

I think even some of the hardened Hamas apologists here would scoff at that statement. Generally they don't speak of a truce, they just seek to justify Hamas' attacks on Israel. You're going even further out there with your statements. Pretty creepy.

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likeitis: The tunnels can also be viewed as a breaking of the cease-fire. However, in light of the fact that Israel has turned Gaza Strip into a walled ghetto prison, its quite understandable that the people within try to tunnel out. Who the heck wouldn't?

But it seems to be that the better option would be to end the military conflict with Israel so tunnels wouldn't be needed anymore.

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The Egyptian border is not open. Gaza cannot have a blockade without the cooperation of Egypt. Palestinian supporters do not like to talk about this fact because they want people to believe the Jews just like killing Palestinians, but that argument falls apart when you are forced to take Egypt into account.

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General question: Is Gaza better or worse off since Hamas went in, slaughtered hundreds of Palestinians, and took over completely?

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But it seems to be that the better option would be to end the military conflict with Israel so tunnels wouldn't be needed anymore.

Are you serious? You seem to be completely unaware of how Israel has been putting these people down for decades. Just because Moses took an eternity to free the Jews from Pharoah does not mean it has to take an eternity to free the Gazans from Israel. Gazans got a mere six months of continuous border control with Egypt, and that control was only partial, and that dried up to due "security concerns". Not violence, not rockets, but "security concerns". Poppycock. Its more like Israel did not like the democratic process.

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Wouldn't be telling the Hamastonians to brace themselves unless the IDF boys were planning to smash em, would they!

I predicted all of this!

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General question: Is Gaza better or worse off since Hamas went in, slaughtered hundreds of Palestinians, and took over completely?

How about: Is Gaza better or worse off since the Israel and U.S. funded and armed Fatah puppet resisted the Hamas democratic victory?

The Hamas take-over was no more unilateral than the Gaza invasion. It takes two to tango, and tango they are. But some tango more than others.

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Poppycock. Its more like Israel did not like the democratic process.

the words of someone who has zero understanding how Hamas operates. Hamas rules its people with an iron hand. those that cross them are executed without any judicial proceedings. not even the PA believes Hamas adhered to the democratic process yet there are some in the west that seem to know better.

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the words of someone who has zero understanding how Hamas operates.

What in Tarnation does all that have to do with the democratic process??? And of course some in the PA suspect Hamas of cheating. Hamas is anti-PA, and PA is pro-Fatah! Did you expect no bias at all?!?

You look at the situation in Gaza. Are you surprised they elected some hard-liners?

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SuperLib: "There's a recent case in Afghanistan of a Canadian soldier being brought up on charges for murder, but I think you'd scoff at the notion that the Canadian government supports that or uses it as policy."

I believe you're right, but the Canadian government would admit it happened and make the appropriate reparations, wouldn't they? Israel? Not on your life.

VOR: "the words of someone who has zero understanding how Hamas operates. Hamas rules its people with an iron hand."

And yet you're not disagreeing with him... or at the very least you're talking about something altogether different.

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Hi, ho, some people don't like the truth and get personal when it is freely offered to them. Yes, Super Lib, etc. Israel did indeed reject a cease fire offer from Hamas in mid Dec, If you don't like my first source, how about Voice of America (News VOA.com)? Here is the source: "Israel Rejects Hamas Truce Offer" by Robert Berger (Jerusalem), 19 December 2007. You"ll be happy that unlike the first source, this one has a distinct pro-Israel twist.

Fact remains that Israel could have sat down with Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, and at least attempted to broker a cease fire.

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likeitis: Are you serious? You seem to be completely unaware of how Israel has been putting these people down for decades

...and firing rockets is the solution to end their suffering? Sorry, but any talk that justifies an armed conflict is simply talk that guarantees that the conflict will continue which is, obviously, not in the best interest of the Palestinians. If you aren't advocating a position where the Palestinians refuse violence and focus on negotiations then you're just sending them into the slaughter, in my opinion.

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Sorry jeancolmar but sometimes your words really creep me out. Anyone who believes that Hamas was the catalyst for peace and Israel rejected them really is living in a very different world. And when I read your words I really do wonder what kind of world your mind lives in...and that's what creeps me out.

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SuperLib: " Sorry, but any talk that justifies an armed conflict is simply talk that guarantees that the conflict will continue which is, obviously, not in the best interest of the Palestinians."

I'm surprised, even for you. NO talk justifies an armed conflict. In fact, nothing does.

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SuperLib,

Then perhaps you can also understand why Israeli hawks and Hamas hawks have such a fundamental disagreement.

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What's so confusing? My position is that Hamas needs to stop firing rockets and importing weapons, then Israel needs to open up the borders, then peace negotiations need to start. I'm assuming you agree with that position?

If your only response to seeing Hamas firing rockets is "Oh, well let's talk about 1948" then in my opinion you aren't helping the Palestinians. You're encouraging an armed conflict against Israel which means you are guaranteeing the same conditions that you're speaking out against.

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SuperLib: "What's so confusing? My position is that Hamas needs to stop firing rockets and importing weapons, then Israel needs to open up the borders, then peace negotiations need to start. I'm assuming you agree with that position?"

I've been asked several times, by several people on this site, questions like 'how long should Israel be expected to put up with rockets before retaliating?' Well, my question is, if Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets, how long do they have to wait until Israel lifts the blockade? Is Israel going to put some ridiculous 'one year no rocket' condition on lifting the blockade? How about they all just starve to death first or die of disease? Likewise, since the blockade is an act of war and a crime against humanity, how long do Palestinians have to wait for the blockade to be lifted before they can start firing rockets?

Just a few questions put at another angle to make you think.

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Likewise, since the rocket fire is an act of war and a crime against humanity, how long do Israeli's have to wait for the rocket fire to be lifted before they can start lift the blockade?

Just a few questions put at another angle to make you think.

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My position is that Hamas needs to stop firing rockets and importing weapons, then Israel needs to open up the borders, then peace negotiations need to start. I'm assuming you agree with that position?

I think that's fairly presumptuous. In your timeline the burden is all on Hamas. I don't think it should be. It's not just about 1948--or about the Palestinian Mandate and the war victor's savage breakup of the Middle East. It's about the 60 years since 1948 during which Israel has been less than faithful to both its promises and its responsibilities.

I don't know what the solution is. However, it seems to me that attempts to put this all on Hamas are simplistic, continuingly punitive and extremely one-sided.

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Sez

What is presumptuous from almost all posters who blather on about the history of the conflict and want Israel to just basically go away again pre 1948, is this.

Reality is Israel is a sovereign nation that isn't going to just "go away" and has the right to safe and secure borders. How she manages her borders to achieve security for her citizens is her business. Providing security for the citizens of any nation is the first and foremost responsibility of any Government. Doesn't matter if that Government is a Democracy or a One party dictatorship or all the shades in between.

Second of all the hard sell for Israeli government to her own people that the way to achieve lasting peace with her neighbors is to trade land for peace.

Well guess what, she did leave Gaza after thirty years in the hopes of trading land for peace in her south. And what did she get......Rockets.

Now I ask you, How are you going to convince the average Israeli now that trading land for peace is the answer?

Pretty obvious it's not.

Your going to have to convince the average Israeli that trading land for peace has to come with solid guarentees now. And I mean solid. It is all on HAMAS now. They wanted this war, they got it. They can stop it anytime by renouncing violence and armed resistance to Israel.

They are the ones that turned land for peace into a terrorist playground.

And if you ever had to sit in a bunker waiting for the all clear to sound after on of those 'hobby rockets' were fired on your town and doing it for over 6 years now you sure wouldn't be sold on trading the land for peace idea anymore either.

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Reality is Israel is a sovereign nation that isn't going to just "go away" and has the right to safe and secure borders.

Holy crap, Sail! Where ya been man? Yeah, Israel has a right to secure her borders. But Israeli is and has been controlling the border with Egypt and the shoreline and airspace of Gaza too! Why do I have to keep trying to drill that into the hard heads around here? Why won't this sink in?

You keep a guy strapped to a table for decades, and yeah, loosen one strap a bit and he might take a swipe at you. Only a complete idiot would expect a groping for a hug! Israel got some rockets and some mortars. Frankly, Israel deserves much more. It is just as easy for me to expect Israel to endure the rockets as it is to expect Gaza to endure forced isolation. In fact, I think its easier to ask Israel to endure.

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Likewise, since the rocket fire is an act of war and a crime against humanity, how long do Israeli's have to wait for the rocket fire to be lifted before they can start lift the blockade?

Blockades are also an act of war Sail, and could be a crime against humanity and there are those saying it is. And please put the horse in front of the cart. The blockade pre-dates the rockets.

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Hi di hi di ho. Wish some people would face facts. I've given two sources that say that Hamas for whatever reason wanted a cease-fire. Israel turned it down for whatever reason. It happened. Go to News Voice of America.com if you don't like my first source.

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...and firing rockets is the solution to end their suffering?

Not directly. But in a very roundabout way, maybe.

Sorry, but any talk that justifies an armed conflict is simply talk that guarantees that the conflict will continue which is, obviously, not in the best interest of the Palestinians.

Maybe you have not noticed, but there are 700 posts about this. The recently posted area on the right is COMPLETELY dominated by this issue. And that is simply astounding. Opinion is turning against the Israelis. They are being exposed like never before. This exposure could very lead to a break through for the Palestinians, including a withdrawal of support from the Americans.

I am not one to support the violent solution, and I am not now. But then, I could not expect the Palestinians to just sit in their prison and rot. Even a pacifist like myself cannot deny that violence can accomplish a great many things, and is often mistaken for the only path, especially by an ignorant, isolated, down-trodden people.

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sailwind: "Likewise, since the rocket fire is an act of war and a crime against humanity, how long do Israeli's have to wait for the rocket fire to be lifted before they can start lift the blockade?"

If you even bothered to read my post you would see that I said that is the exact kind of question posited on here many times, and hence mine was 'another angle'; yours is not another angle at all, it's the same broken record. Try reading the posts before you comment. It's pretty clear from your next comment as well that you haven't been reading much... just a line or two here and there, then posting the exact same thing as in the content that the people are posting on. Hell, even sarge at least reads the posts before cutting, pasting, and swiping one word for another to make it 'original'.

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Don't forget Egypt closed the border on their side also. Why do you give them a pass on that?????

Because Israel is in control FROM THE INSIDE. When Israel finally let people cross into Egypt, Egypt allowed it. And because it was Israel that occupied Gaza from 1967, so naturally the border was closed until the Israelis left, and the current problems are not only real, but not the fault of responsibility of Egypt but rather of Israel. And last, its called the Israeli Gaza Strip barrier, and it completely encircles Gaza Strip. Not even one section of it is called the Egpyt Gaza Strip Barrier.

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sailwind,

I'm not sure which posters you believe to be "blathering" so I won't attempt to speak for them. However, I don't think that many of the posters who refer to the conditions under which Israel was created actually believe that the solution is to eliminate Israel.

You're right that Israel is a sovereign nation with a right to protect its borders. I think, however, you are wrong when you say that how Israel manages to achieve its security is exclusively Israel's business. It is not at all clear that Israel has the right to respond with disproportional force or, that even if it has that right, that other countries do not have a right and perhaps even an imperative to stop it from doing so.

I view with some suspicion your formulation of the problem as one of trading land for peace. Gaza is not Israel's to trade. It governed in Gaza for nearly 60 years, however, and it did so poorly. Its dividends for its poor governance were received in bombings, suicide bombings and other acts even before it pulled out of Gaza. If the pullout enabled the rocketry that should be viewed as a continuation of Palestinian objections in another form. Eliminating the rockets will not make Israel secure.

I don't have to convince the average Israeli of anything. If you wish to be an Israeli partisan, that's fine with me. I am sympathetic to those in Israel whose lives are subject to disruption but I am not sympathetic to those who believe they can obtain a military solution to this problem. I am also sympathetic to Palestinians who were not granted equality when Israel was created, who have lived statelessly for 60 years, who have more or less been under Israel's thumb and who have had their legitimately elected government spurned by Israel and its allies.

No, I wouldn't like to be sitting in a bunker. But I wouldn't be thinking about the problem as one of trading land for peace either.

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Blockades are also an act of war Sail, and could be a crime against humanity and there are those saying it is. And please put the horse in front of the cart. The blockade pre-dates the rockets.

Wrong........

February 3, 2008

Egypt's security forces began closing off a section of its border with Gaza Sunday, 11 days after Palestinians blasted gaps in the wall, Palestinians at the border told CNN.

Last month tens of thousands of Gazans overran the border into Egypt, flooding stores to purchase goods that were in short supply as a result of an Israeli blockade. Since then, the flow of Palestinians into Egypt has dropped, and Egyptian and Hamas security forces began sealing parts of the Gaza-Egypt border last week.

Israel closed all border crossings with Gaza on January 17 to punish Hamas leaders for days of rocket attacks on southern Gaza.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/03/gaza.egypt/index.html

Frankly, Israel deserves much more.

Free and open borders so the 'hobby rockets' can now be fitted with nerve gas maybe?

You don't think HAMAS wouldn't do that if they had the capability? Israel blockaded the borders in response to terrorism. Any nation would do the same thing. EVEN EGYPT, which you never seem to even bothering mentioning at all in any of your posts.

I guess they deserve a pass from you in all this 'concern' you really have for the Palistinian cause.

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"You don't think HAMAS wouldn't do that if they had the capability? Israel blockaded the borders in response to terrorism."

Or perhaps terrorism rose in response to the blockade. As well, the blockade can be seen as an act of terrorism.

I realize I'm playing devil's advocate intentionally here, but I want you guys to stop thinking this is a one-sided issue. There is no war with one group, my friend, you have to wage war with another party, regardless of whether they fight back or not. Both can easily be labelled terrorists according to the definitions, and DON'T come on here with crap about Israel doesn't target innocents, lest I have to bring up the UN workers being shot and killed again, amongst others. And before you do jump on this argument, YES, I think Hamas are terrorists, and don't necessarily think Israeli soldiers fit the bill; I'm just saying that you CAN apply the label to both, so it shouldn't be doled out so easily and one side blamed 100% for anything.

One other thing is for certain, while Hamas definitely needs to stop firing rockets, it is not 100% dependent on them for peace; Israel must also take steps to ensure that peace is realized, and definitely to make sure it is kept (and I mean PEACEFUL steps, not genocide).

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Both can easily be labelled terrorists according to the definitions, and DON'T come on here with crap about Israel doesn't target innocents, lest I have to bring up the UN workers being shot and killed again, amongst others.

I'll bring it up for you. They don't deliberately target innocents on purpose as opposed to HAMAS who does and relishes in it.

GAZA, Jan 10 (Reuters) - The Israeli military denied on Saturday that Israeli soldiers had shot at a United Nations aid truck in a convoy headed to a Gaza crossing two days ago.

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) had initially accused Israeli troops on a two-week offensive against Hamas Islamists in the Gaza Strip of shooting at the U.N. convoy bringing humanitarian aid on Thursday, killing one worker.

An Israeli statement issued on Saturday said "the Israeli army did not fire upon the truck," and that those wounded in the shooting were treated at an Israeli hospital.

Christopher Gunness, a spokesman for UNRWA, said the agency had not accused Israel of deliberately targeting its personnel.

Gunness said the U.N. had based its account on reports from truck drivers at the scene, who saw an Israeli tank nearby and "were in no doubt they had been fired upon."

He urged Israel to release any photographs of the scene to "find out what happened."

An Israeli military source said Israel suspected Hamas was behind that shooting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLA548612

You did get the deliberately part I hope from the U.N spokesperson.

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How about, via rational, long term policies, the Israelis promote moderation and... marginalise the extremists. The present approach will only succeed in seeing extremism become mainstream and expose, again, Israel's inability to achieve its objectives. Hamas are still firing rockets into Israel.

Take a deep breath and take the step Israel, show us that you really can make the hard choices. It's easy to bomb, kill and maim. It's much harder to engage, discuss and compromise as you are demonstratively proving with every piece of ordinance you use against Gaza.

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You seem really bitter sail. You bitter?

I have said numerous times that Egypt has a right to do with its border as it wants. So does Israel. I have explained to you why I have no particular beef with Egypt, incidentally, a country with has allowed thousands of Gazans into their country after they went through the usual channels like checking of passport. Of course no country wants porous borders. Not even Hamas wants that.

Gaza is a mess. It remains Israel's mess. Why do you insist on dragging Egypt in except as a very weak way of trying to excuse Israel? Oh, because you are an Israeli apologist?

Free and open borders so the 'hobby rockets' can now be fitted with nerve gas maybe?

Hmmm, so your argument is that it is better to keep a downtrodden people down because you never know what a free people will do? Well you and Stalin are in complete agreement, I am sure!

You know, maybe if Israel completely got out of the "control other's borders" business, the rockets just might stop. But if Israel actually let Gaza completely go and the rockets did not stop, well then guess what? Even I would be forced to conceed Israel has to invade in that case. So why not take a chance on peace? Its not like Gaza has any real power to do any real damage, is it?

But what I know for sure is that the only peace that will come out of keeping Gaza in a walled up ghetto like they have been is the rocket and mortar kind of peace. If that is the kind of peace they insist on, I say, live with it.

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sailwind: "An Israeli statement issued on Saturday said "the Israeli army did not fire upon the truck," and that those wounded in the shooting were treated at an Israeli hospital."

Yeah, and meanwhile when the case was first reported they said they had been firing on some Hamas in the area (like they also said when they shelled the school). Now they outright deny being involved. Wow. And you come on here accusing the Hamas side of the media being biased; well.... Israel has lied in the past, plenty of times, and even so far in this battle they have been caught lying more than once. Funny how you guys will decry the biased nature of Western media supporting Palestine, but then say Israel is 100% correct and cannot possibly be lying (despite saying something else about the same events yesterday). You guys forget things so conveniently.

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Sail, read this in its entirety please. If you dispute any of it, I am all ears, especially the part about Israel ordering Egypt to keep their side of the border closed. An order the Egyptians finally ignored to let in humanitarian aid. So why in God's name would I have a problem with Egypt? Its Israel that has to keep making promises about NOT cutting off food. That is because its ISRAEL that keeps cutting off the friggen food!

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Hmmm, so your argument is that it is better to keep a downtrodden people down because you never know what a free people will do? Well you and Stalin are in complete agreement, I am sure!

Ummmm......They used the border crossings after Israel left Gaza to inflitrate suicide bombers into Israel. I'm pretty sure they have demonstrated what a free Palistinian people would do if the borders were wide open.

Israel closed the borders to prevent terror attacks on her soil.

How dumb is that on Israel's part again?

Also for the record if you think being under a random mortar attack is just some sort of nuisance that a person who happens to be Israeli should just put up with..........Makes it pretty clear that an Israeli civilians life is worth less to you than a Palistinian one.

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likeitis: "Israeli apologists, yes men and suckers."

I sure hope, since you quote me in your comment, that you are not referring to me here. If so you have got the wrong poster, mi amigo.

sailwind: "Makes it pretty clear that an Israeli civilians life is worth less to you than a Palistinian one."

Nah, you're right. I think the count is now 800 Palestinian lives worth 1 Israeli, and more than half of those Palestinians are innocents. It's you guys who really have it messed up in terms of 'whose lives are worth more'.

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"800 Palestinian lives worth 1 Israeli"

No. But here you've got a situation where a country is being bombarded by rockets and mortars, day after day, week after week, with no end in sight. If the government of that country did nothing to stop it, it would be neglecting its duty. These are the hard facts.

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Smith

Add 218 civilians dead and 3142 wounded to your 'count' on the Israeli side.

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Yes Sail, you must be bitter. Because you certainly are not being rational. I am really not clear on how the border with Egypt lets Palestinians into Israel. Maybe you can clear that up for me? I mean, I got some ideas, but that include a lot more than just Palestinians as a danger.

Also for the record if you think being under a random mortar attack is just some sort of nuisance that a person who happens to be Israeli should just put up with.

You cannot imagine the adversity I think a land thief should tolerate. However, mortar attacks are easily avoided by backing away from the wall. That is why they came up with the rockets.

Makes it pretty clear that an Israeli civilians life is worth less to you than a Palistinian one.

Uh, no Sail. They are worth the same to me. But a life in a ghetto prison is no life at all. And that is a primary reason why some with throw what little life they have away just to kill some Israeli civilians. Isrealis made their own bed. Now they must sleep in it.

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No. But here you've got a situation where a country is being bombarded by rockets and mortars, day after day, week after week, with no end in sight.

Odd the way that when we are speaking of the body count, you go back to counting rockets. Sorry, we have had enough of your "looky over there" trick.

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I sure hope, since you quote me in your comment, that you are not referring to me here.

Nope. I was just backing up what you said.

These people are so against terror, yet refuse to address the reasons for it. All they can think of is to kill the symptoms, either by weapons or by stavation, while not comprehending that temporary solution guarantees more of the same later on. Some elements of this disease are going to have to be borne out. There will be growing pains.

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likeitis - Get ready for an Israeli victory and a Hamas defeat.

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smithinjapan: Well, my question is, if Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets, how long do they have to wait until Israel lifts the blockade? Is Israel going to put some ridiculous 'one year no rocket' condition on lifting the blockade?

Those conditions could be spelled out in the agreement. The fact is that rockets existed long before the blockade. The blockade by Israel and Egypt only came into play when Hamas violently took over Gaza.

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Sez: I don't know what the solution is. However, it seems to me that attempts to put this all on Hamas are simplistic, continuingly punitive and extremely one-sided.

You aren't fooling me. I know that any agreement that you support has to include the right of return, aka the destruction of Israel.

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likeitis: But Israeli is and has been controlling the border with Egypt

Egypt has been controlling the border with Egypt with help from EU monitors. The original plan was for Israel to control that border but they dropped that requirement and agreed to EU monitors instead. Remember the stories about the monitors catching men with millions of dollars in their suitcases?

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Smith add 201 to the count for dead and 1279 for the wounded.

http://wits.nctc.gov/RunSearchCountry.do?countryId=35

Then another 74 and 256 more for GAZA and the West Bank.

http://wits.nctc.gov/RunSearchCountry.do?countryId=47

Likeitis

I really have no time for a terrorist apologist, sorry that you feel compelled to rationalize the killing of innocent human beings on purpose as some sort of desperate act on the Palistinian part.

You strip away the innocence of the victims, those who know right and wrong and you reward it to terrorists, who lie to themselves that their cause is more important than anything else, that blowing up a market full of shoppers is somehow noble and just.

I'm sure glad Martin Luther King and Ghandi didn't have the same mindset you do when it comes to the best way to fight injustice.

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likeitis - Get ready for an Israeli victory and a Hamas defeat.

Is there a betting pool or something? FYI any idiot could have predicted that the prison ghetto dwellers would loose militarily to well fed well armed military. Its been said too. Read the thread.

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smithinjapan: Yeah, and meanwhile when the case was first reported they said they had been firing on some Hamas in the area (like they also said when they shelled the school). Now they outright deny being involved. Wow. And you come on here accusing the Hamas side of the media being biased; well.... Israel has lied in the past, plenty of times, and even so far in this battle they have been caught lying more than once. Funny how you guys will decry the biased nature of Western media supporting Palestine, but then say Israel is 100% correct and cannot possibly be lying (despite saying something else about the same events yesterday). You guys forget things so conveniently.

Umm.....but the quote was from someone at the UN, not Israel. You're saying the UN rep is now lying?

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I'm sure glad Martin Luther King and Ghandi didn't have the same mindset you do when it comes to the best way to fight injustice.

At least you admit the injustice.

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likeitis: FYI any idiot could have predicted that the prison ghetto dwellers would loose militarily to well fed well armed military

Yet you refuse to take the position that the prison ghetto dwellers should stop attacking the well fed well armed military. That's the part I don't get.

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Egypt has been controlling the border with Egypt with help from EU monitors. The original plan was for Israel to control that border but they dropped that requirement and agreed to EU monitors instead. Remember the stories about the monitors catching men with millions of dollars in their suitcases?

A link to prove that please. I am sick of providing my own only to have them ignored.

Keep in mind that goods were not allowed through Rafah, only people. And that was for but a short time and Israel closed it down again. Israel never let of the reins completely. It even makes demands on Egypt, which Egypt heeds until it can't anymore due to humanitarian concerns.

Israel is mostly in control, and always has been. The power is not absolute, but its close enough.

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sailwind: "I'm sure glad Martin Luther King and Ghandi didn't have the same mindset you do when it comes to the best way to fight injustice."

And since both Martin Luther King and Ghandi would be very much against the very active aggression of Israel, would you still quote them as positive mindsets and heroes? Or how about if they took the place of Hamas and passively resisted the Israeli aggression? Either way, your using these two men to admit that what Israel is doing -- at least in terms of scope -- is unjust doesn't really do your arguments a lot of... well... justice.

Keep trying, my friend. In the meantime, do show us the 218 civilians dead and 3142 wounded to your 'count' on the Israeli side in this war, my friend. Show us where and how Hamas has hit them in the past few days and leading up to this Israeli incursion.

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The blockade by Israel and Egypt only came into play when Hamas violently took over Gaza.

Officially yes. But my understanding is that Israel has had control of land, sea and air in Gaza since 1967. I heard that Gaza was not even allowed to have a port! It seems to me the blockade has been around a long time for all intents and purposes, it was just tightened in 2007. Its hard to find clear information on this point, but nowhere does it even say that Gazans ever had control of their seas. In fact, some sources state clearly the opposite, but details are lacking.

And again, I see no reason to drag Egypt into this except for purposes of obfuscation. Israel holds all the cards. Egypt is a bit player in the downside of the blockade, and quicker than Israel to let in relief.

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sailwind: Thanks for the link to the 'incidents' page again. I find it interesting that according to this page, not a single Palestinian has been killed in the Gaza EVER by Israelis... it only seems to be Israelis killed or attacked by militants. But hey... never expected you to post anything (link-wise) with an ounce of objectivity.

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Yet you refuse to take the position that the prison ghetto dwellers should stop attacking the well fed well armed military. That's the part I don't get.

Dude, I cannot take a side on that. Of course I want ALL violence to stop immediately. But I also want all injustice to stop immediately. Those two goals do not seem to be compatible. And far be it for me to decide a people should not fight for freedom and justice as much I have a distaste for the way they do it.

These people have been under Israel's thumb for a long time. They have not been happy. Israel has done quite poorly by them. It is no mystery that they do not trust Israel to be fair even if they do lay down their arms. Crikey, after all I have read lately I don't trust Israel either! Don't take that to mean I trust Hamas though. I refuse to take the side of either of these two.

Militarily Hamas stands to lose. Politically, this could be a great victory. It has certainly gotten me to pay attention to a situation I have been ignoring for decades. I do not think I am alone.

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sailwind: Alright, well, when you show me an objective link which also states how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelis in the same time period so we can compare, I'll gladly add your count to the one listed in ever single paper every single day related to what's going on. In the meantime, you can continue to show us links to sites compiled by a government who believes the government of Israel can do ZERO wrong and this whole thing is 100% the fault of Hamas. Forgive me for being mildly skeptical in accepting what you post carte blanche, haha. Oh... and didn't the US just approve a MAJOR arms shipment soon before this whole thing began?

And once again, my friend, much of what you report as to the definition of terrorism can be pointed towards Israel, too. But of course, then you guys simply call it 'just retaliation', etc.

"deliberately or recklessly attack civilians/non-combatants or their property"

Check!

"...the attack does not fall into another special category of political violence, such as crime, rioting, or tribal violence."

Check!

Just because Israel drops leaflets before shooting people doesn't mean their actions don't terrorize the civilians in the area -- particularly when said civilians have nowhere to run. What's more, Israel in the past has committed many more atrocities in 'defense' of its state.

Again, though, I don't seriously expect you to link anything objective. But please do find us the stats on how many Palestinians vs. Israelis have died in the same time frame as you posted the 'objective' link that you did.

Moderator: Readers, as we have pointed out many times, the purpose of the discussion board is for you to post your opinions, not links to other sites.

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Smith add 201 to the count for dead and 1279 for the wounded.

You seem to be throwing in Palestinian on Palestinian violence? Correct?

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sailwind: I was the one who pointed out the Jewish terrorist group to you guys back during the Mumbai attack, when people in your ilk were saying all terrorists are Muslims (not you specifically). Even then people stuck up for Israel's side of things.

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Give it up smith, Israel has not been labeled a state sponsor of terrorism or a terrorist organization by the U.N or any other Government on the planet.

Your posting only your opinion and your opinion only that you think Israel is a terrorist state. The link only goes up to Sept 2008 and hasn't been updated yet to include the current timeframe, sorry to dissapoint you smith on what you want to prove a really dumb point on your part.

The link shows clearly all the terrorists incidents agaisn't Isreali's the past 4 years. Isreal is now responding in a military campaign to stop the attacks from HAMAS. All the deaths that she has absorbed is what brought her to finally take military action. They sure as hell can be counted as part of the death toll here. If it wasn't for the terrorists attacks and the carnage they caused this invasion would never have taken place.

I understand that will be lost on you. You want to trump up the Palistianian death count and crow that only 13 Israelis have been kiiled and only one civilian. Isn't that so smith.

Moderator: Please do not be impolite to other posters.

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Sailwind: "Your posting only your opinion and your opinion only that you think Israel is a terrorist state."

Hahaha... glad I've gotten your goat, my friend. You always do tend to resort to name calling and an inability to read posts when you get a wee bit miffed.

If you bothered to read my posts earlier on, I clearly said I do not think that Israel need be labelled a terrorist state, I simply said that some of the criterion you guys so easily throw around on behalf of what you define as terrorism can be applied to Israel's actions. It's plain as day that you clearly and ONLY choose to see what you wish to. In fact, people like you often come on here when an attack is carried out by Islamic radicals and come on here, pushing your same definition of terrorism and applying them to ALL MUSLIMS, regardless of the fact only an extremely small fraction of the population of believers in Islam carried out said attacks.

"Your doing your best to run away from the facts that 99 percent of the terrorists attacks in Israel are from your buddies in Islamic extremists groups."

First off, your childish 'your buddies' comments prove that you are far from objective in your postings. As I have clearly stated in the past, I am against ALL war in all its forms, and it therefore stands to reason I am against any terrorist action whatsoever. What's more, show me, please, where I have said that terrorist attacks in Israel have not been carried out by Islamic extremists (I don't expect an answer because you'll never find me saying it).

"What a shocker........Run smith with the nonsense your trying to defend here, facts are facts."

And the fact is clearly that you seem unable to read, plain and simple. All I'm stating, as I have since the beginning of this, is that the people who come on here and defend Israel flat out, saying it's okay to kill these women and children because they dropped leaflets, and 'Hamas brought this on themselves' every time UN truck or innocents are hit... well... you need to realize it's not so one-sided.

As a personal attack when you come on here and say, "Oh, well, 800 Palestinians have been hit in the past two weeks? Well, how about the 215 Israelis that have been killed since ____ (enter unrelated battles here)?", I ask you to provide the number of deaths of Palestinians that have been killed by Israelis in the same time frame and not limited to this fight.

I mean, after all... if you really pretend to be objective, shouldn't you provide the details and numbers of BOTH sides for the same time period?

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I don't really understand why people are having a go at posters like smithinjapan and defending the Israeli [over]reaction and the deaths of more than 200 children ? I mean, who is actually defending the terrorist actions of Hamas and Hezbollah ? Nobody. None of us are defending what Hamas or Hezbollah have done to Israel. But we are describing the Israeli offensive as barbaric with no regard for innocent civilians. More than 200 children killed in what, 10 days ? And sailwind describes this as not a terrorist act ? So what is a terrorist act if that isn't ? And just because a nation is not listed on a piece of paper as a sponsor of terrorism then I suppose that means they are not capable of terrorism ? I guess the American bombing of Iraqi civilians during the invasion and the British bombing of Iraqi civilians before the invasion are not acts of terror because neither are listed on a piece of paper as terrorist nations ? Rubbish.

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northlondon: "None of us are defending what Hamas or Hezbollah have done to Israel. But we are describing the Israeli offensive as barbaric with no regard for innocent civilians. More than 200 children killed in what, 10 days ? And sailwind describes this as not a terrorist act ? So what is a terrorist act if that isn't ?"

Bingo! But they will come on here with the same, tired old excuses why some of the Israeli actions cannot possibly fall into the definition of terrorism (never mind that you make it clear you are not calling all Israelis or even the government a recognized terrorist group!):

a) they warned the citizens of Palestine, which proves they do not want to kill them: WRONG! It proves only that they warned a group penned into a certain area that they were going to bomb and then invade it on foot. This does not wash their hands of any blame or responsibility in killing innocents.

b) it's Hamas fault for firing rockets: Never mind that you can argue Israel started the whole thing just as easily. This excuse still doesn't make the 200 fold dead count (plus ALL of the Israeli dead in this current war occurred AFTER the invasion began!) and overreaction.

c) It's up to Hamas to bring peace: Wrong! not when it's Israel doing the majority of the firing. If Hamas stops firing, Israel won't necessarily do so. Israel launched this invasion supposedly to halt the rocket attacks and that hasn't worked, so they need to stop firing and go to the negotiation table. When Israel agrees to cease fire and give back some lands they took in the 1967 war, then Hamas must also agree to NEVER fire into the originally sectioned country of Israel again. If they do, well, deal with that then. It stands to reason that Israel must also not break the cease-fire, as they have in the past (not only Palestinians have done that), and have to lift any blockade. Not of it will be easy, but it's what needs to be done as a start, and even THAT can't start until the current violence stops, which of course includes Israel stopping the attack.

There are plenty more tired excuses as to why Israel is good and Hamas bad, but after seeing them shot down day in and day out, it gets tiring to even bother to try and quote the nonsensical attempts to justify war.

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There are plenty more tired excuses as to why Israel is good and Hamas bad, but after seeing them shot down day in and day out, it gets tiring to even bother to try and quote the nonsensical attempts to justify war.

Wearing us out is what the Israeli apologist hopes for.

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How about, via rational, long term policies, the Israelis promote moderation and... marginalise the extremists. The present approach will only succeed in seeing extremism become mainstream and expose, again, Israel's inability to achieve its objectives. Hamas are still firing rockets into Israel.

Take a deep breath and take the step Israel, show us that you really can make the hard choices. It's easy to bomb, kill and maim. It's much harder to engage, discuss and compromise as you are demonstratively proving with every piece of ordinance you use against Gaza.

Today in the UK many prominent Jews called on Israel to STOP. In one week President Obama will be in Office. Thank christ for that.

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A terrorist group (Hamas/ Al Qaeda), blinded by it's fundamentalism and total lack of respect for life, is a bad enough cancer for mankind. But a recognised nation (Israel/ the US), with it's economic and military power and an educated population, killing mothers and children in the pursuit of it's revenge, is a far more serious danger to the world. Out of the two, the terrorists are a part of life today that must be dealt with. But the second has no excuses whatsoever, as it is supposed to know better.

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"in the pursuit of its revenge"

Israel isn't pursuing revenge, Israel is doing what it has to do ensure rockets and mortars don't keep landing on its territory and people.

"the terrorists are a part of life today"

Yeah, but efforts can and should be made to kill or capture them.

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Israel isn't pursuing revenge, Israel is doing what it has to do ensure rockets and mortars don't keep landing on its territory and people.

No it isn't. Simple as that. The rockets are almost impossible to take out from middle distance because they are fired from mobile and not fixed launchers. It's quite straightforward Sarge. All Israel have to do is literally walk into Gaza City (there is no Palestinian army to take them on) to arrest the known terrorists they have on their intelligence (Mossad possess the best intelligence in the world). Israel also has the most up-to-date arsenal in the world today. They certainly would possess a missile shield system good enough to intercept Hamas' cheap bottom-of-the-range rockets (why is that question not being asked by the Israelis of their politicians ?) and they have good enough intelligence to know immediately where those rockets were fired from. But no, a little bit of civilian child death is their preference. Israel has thrived on 'revenge' since 1941.

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They certainly would possess a missile shield system good enough to intercept Hamas' cheap bottom-of-the-range rockets (why is that question not being asked by the Israelis of their politicians ?)

Missle shield systems are not generic. If you know of such a system, name it. Be sure it is capable of targeting and intercepting small rockets rather than say, nothing smaller than a ICBM. Good luck.

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The key issue, apart from "Who's wiping who off the map?" is of disproportionality of response.

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The Israelis have been fooling everyone for a long time. Their military is state-of-the-art and pound for pound about the best in the world. Mossad intelligence is second to none and they infiltrate Gaza and the Palestinians themselves. Their enemy (Hamas) is no competition. Hamas is an urban terrorist organisation with no real army or discipline. It's no contest. But Israel will cry out to the rest of the world about cheap inaccurate Hamas rockets so that in return they can then starve Gaza economically and attack Palestinians with it's military.

A healthy and prosperous Gaza is the worst case scenario for Israel. If the Palestinians can educate their children to go on and become politicians, lawyers and people of influence then Israel has lost it's 'war'. A starving and poverty-restricted Gaza is exactly what Israel wants. Israel being the 'victim' is the perfect scenario for them to cry out to the international community and react with economic blockades and military attacks on the Palestinian population.

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I have a question for likeitis, Sarge and sailwind in relation to this topic. Similar to the firing of Hamas rockets into civilian areas, the great United States of America has drive-by shootings of innocents and drug gangwar-related deaths of innocents that exceed the number of Israeli deaths from Hamas rockets every year without fail. Now, just like the Israeli military reaction killing over 200 Palestinian children, if the ATF decided that drug gangs are too difficult to infiltrate in the projects and took the same course of action in turn killing over 200 American children in those projects whilst at war with the drug gangs, would you agree with that course of action ? I'd be interested in your honest answers because personally I believe that you don't give a damn about Israeli deaths from Hamas rockets or Palestinian deaths from Israeli missiles because it's not in your own backyard.

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likeitis: Of course I want ALL violence to stop immediately.

Of course you don't. No one in their right mind could simultaneously say they want the violence to end why justifying an armed conflict on the part of Hamas. Don't ya get it?

And far be it for me to decide a people should not fight for freedom

See what I mean? Lots of people have fought for freedom. They just didn't do it in a way that guaranteed that there would never be freedom. But....here you are...day after day...supporting an armed struggle that can never be won.... Seriously, take a page from Martin Luther King or Gandhi. Peaceful resistance is the only way the Palestinians will win this battle. They're firing rockets daily into Israel and look at the international condemnation Israel is receiving just for responding. Ya don't think a non-violence movement would be supported by the world and would force Israel's hand?

But please....tell me again about 1967.....we're all ears. Pat more Palestinians on the back as they throw their children in front of tanks. They hold the moral high ground, after all. Don't ever let them forget it. It looks nice on a gravestone.

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northlondon: I mean, who is actually defending the terrorist actions of Hamas and Hezbollah ? Nobody. None of us are defending what Hamas or Hezbollah have done to Israel.

I have no idea what message board you've been reading over the past few weeks but the Hamas apologists are doing just that....defending what Hamas and Hezbollah have done to Israel. Every time terrorism from said groups is mentioned it's countered with, "golly, wouldn't you fight for your land?" That's not someone who doesn't condone terrorism, that's someone who thinks terrorism is an appropriate response.

What we have here is a classic case of a man who support terrorism but doesn't want to say he supports terrorism. Soon you'll be back to your old tricks after cleansing your system with a paragraph.

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Ya don't think a non-violence movement would be supported by the world and would force Israel's hand?

No, because the great United States of America will veto the UN vote on a ceasefire because of it's own (Israeli) interests in the region. If you haven't been reading the news recently, the UN has already called for a ceasefire and the rest of the world has demonstrated against Israeli military action killing women and children, but Israel does not give a damn. The rest of the world and Israel already know that Palestinian children are not members of Hamas, so your message is totally incorrect.

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smithinjapan: Hamas must also agree to NEVER fire into the originally sectioned country of Israel again.

You've said yourself that you don't believe Hamas will do this. So what solution are you really offering? One you've admitted will not work?

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Superlib,

Pointing out duality that I already admitted makes you look like a complete idiot.

And telling me I actually do not want the violence to end is pompous in the extreme.

Feel free to both grow up and smarten up.

But....here you are...day after day...supporting an armed struggle that can never be won....

God damn it man. Having mixed feelings about something is not support. I really wish a whole bunch of you here would figure that out already. I am so terribly sorry, but the world is not as simple as you thought when you were six, and apparently still do.

Seriously, take a page from Martin Luther King or Gandhi. Peaceful resistance is the only way the Palestinians will win this battle.

I do not think either of those guys would make the claim about their way being the "only" way to win. Anyway, feel free to preach the message of peace to BOTH sides, okay? You won't get any complaints from me.

They're firing rockets daily into Israel and look at the international condemnation Israel is receiving just for responding.

No. NO. NO! They are are over-responding. And they have had these people locked up for sodded decades man.

Pat more Palestinians on the back as they throw their children in front of tanks. They hold the moral high ground, after all.

You are as bitter as Sailwind. And you are getting to be just as irrational and petulant.

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northlondon: But Israel will cry out to the rest of the world about cheap inaccurate Hamas rockets so that in return they can then starve Gaza economically and attack Palestinians with it's military.

I see. So this isn't about terrorism or rockets, it's simply about Israel's desire to kill Palestinians?

Anyone here agree with that?

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Israel has shown great constraint defending itself against an enemy that has sworn to destroy Israel. Until the Palestinian people choose peace over violence and recognize Israel's right to exist, the Palestinians have no one else to blame except for themselves.

Those demanding Israel just roll over and die should examine their own motivations.

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northlondon...with all due respect, you're a nutball. Sell your computer and invest in a cave somewhere in northpakistan.

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SuperLib: "No one in their right mind could simultaneously say they want the violence to end why justifying an armed conflict on the part of Hamas"

Same goes for justifying an armed conflict on the part of Israel -- or anyone for that matter. All you're saying is that you don't want the violence to end, if you really feel that's what likeitis meant, of course.

"But....here you are...day after day...supporting an armed struggle that can never be won...."

So you think Israel is going to come out of this a 'winner', eh? No one wins in this situation, my friend, no one. And the stakes are daily getting worse for Israel in particular as this thing rages on; Obama is about to take office and won't put up with quite the same crap as bush did. Now that the troops are in Gaza they are reportedly facing very tough resistance, which means more loss of troops, which means points down for the group in the upcoming Israeli elections. They evacuate now, they lose more troops and guarantee more rockets to boot. They keep up the slaughter and they guarantee resistance and martyrdom for Palestinians, as well as increased support world-wide.

"They're firing rockets daily into Israel and look at the international condemnation Israel is receiving just for responding."

No, there's no 'just' that belongs here with the Israeli response. They are not 'just' responding as though they too lobbed a few rockets over and simply broke a window here and there, they are carrying out MASS SLAUGHTER, and more than half of the dead are innocents! Hamas may be throwing people in front of tanks, but Israel is gladly not stopping the tanks from rolling on, claiming the people were warned. I'm sorry, but it's you who really doesn't see it. As has been said over and over, you do not have to love Israel to be against Hamas. No one here agrees with what Hamas is doing in terms of lobbing mortars and firing rockets into Israel. I'm certainly not. But that does not at all mean we therefore have to believe what Israel is doing, and the extreme scope in which they're doing it, is correct. The logic that you're 'with us or against us' is one of the reasons the current US admin is so rightly hated and have utterly ruined things for so many, and thank god that kind of thinking has been shown the door.

"But please....tell me again about 1967.....we're all ears"

Clearly you know enough about it, but have chosen not to listen. Likeitis himself has clearly stated that if this turned into a 'the Jews originally stole the land after WWII we'd be handing back the US and Canada, as well as Japan and who knows where else as arguments about rights went on and on, etc. If he has brought it up, he has enough smarts to use it to back up something relevant.

Patting the Palestinians on the back is one thing. Patting Hamas people who fire rockets into Israel is something else.

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SuperLib, what riles you is that there are plenty of people around the world who do not bow down to big bully action by the likes of the US and Israel. You just hate it when people such as me stand up to that and do not accept a global order run by the economically powerful and military powers. You really hate it and you are it makes you nervous and scared.

"golly, wouldn't you fight for your land?" That's not someone who doesn't condone terrorism, that's someone who thinks terrorism is an appropriate response.

Congratulations. You have just described the Israeli reaction of fighting for their land as terrorism.

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I'd be interested in your honest answers because personally I believe that you don't give a damn about Israeli deaths from Hamas rockets or Palestinian deaths from Israeli missiles because it's not in your own backyard.

Well, I have pointed out how all this has the potential to spill over into our own backyard and maybe already has, but the mod did not like it.

But just how much to you want me to care? Caring is really not my thing. What I do is analyze and fish for the truth. I support justice. I do not pick sides. I do not cry myself to sleep for kids that died half a world away. My recognition of the tragedy and travesty is impassionate, but believe me, I do recognize it. And I do deplore it.

would you agree with that course of action ?

Heck no. I do not even support the war on drugs. All it did was up the ante. Same here. Israeli oppression of Palestine is one of the roots of Palestinian rage.

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Does Hamas want peace?

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likeitis: I do not think either of those guys would make the claim about their way being the "only" way to win.

I've read Martin Luther King's autobiography. I'm guessing you haven't. Nonviolent resistance will work against Israel. How on earth could someone claim to be a force for peace while throwing aside the work of these two men? Is your desire to support an armed stuggle against Israel so great that you actually look at MLK's work with skepticism?

Seriously....look at where you're at.

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Libertas: Well, actually, it IS simply about Israel's desire to kill Palestinians. Pure and simple.

Nutball #2, your table is ready.

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VOR: Well, the first part of your argument is bang on; anyone who seriously tries to say Israel is a group of Nazis, is, well, a little irreverent to say the least, and likely a bit nuts.

But then you go on, like so many of you guys do, to blame this 100% on Hamas, and say that somehow calling Israel Nazis means they should simply roll over and die quietly. I'm not sure where it went from one insane extreme to the other, and I have yet to see a poster say Israel should just go back home and die. I've seen a number of posts with tones like this one suggesting that people who don't side with Israel want them to go to the gas chambers again (equally as ridiculous a notion), but come on!

"Until the Palestinian people choose peace over violence and recognize Israel's right to exist, the Palestinians have no one else to blame except for themselves."

Hamas and the idiot nutbags who fire rockets into Israel have no one to blame but themselves for some kind of retaliation that's within reason; Israel's is far from it, and none of the innocent civilians, many of whom (like many Jews in Israel question THEIR leaders' actions!) are against what Hamas is doing and are upset with them, deserves what Israel is doing in retaliation.

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northlondon: SuperLib, what riles you is that there are plenty of people around the world who do not bow down to big bully action by the likes of the US and Israel. You just hate it when people such as me stand up to that and do not accept a global order run by the economically powerful and military powers. You really hate it and you are it makes you nervous and scared.

OK nutball #1....whatever you say.....

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Does everyone think Hamas should stop firing rockets and stop importing weapons and stop attack Israel in exchange for open borders?

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OK nutball #2....whatever you say.....

;)

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Until the Palestinian people choose peace over violence and recognize Israel's right to exist, the Palestinians have no one else to blame except for themselves.

A person like you probably has immense difficulty understanding why Africans uprooted from their culture and shoved into another, slaved and oppressed for generations, are only now coming into their own nearly 150 years later.

Culture and good sense are not rooted in human DNA. Take the baby of the richest most sensible well mannered man you can find and have him raised in the ghetto prison called Gaza strip. That baby will grow up just as misguided as everyone else there.

People like you who expect people to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" just have not got a clue what makes a people sensible and stable. But I will give a clue: it is not stuffing them onto a patch of non-arable land, building a fence around them, not letting them out, and let them have only as much fuel, medicine, and food as you deem fit.

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"Does everyone think "israel" should hand back the land it stole, stop committing genocide, stop developing and using nuclear and other illegal weapons, join the NNPT, accept IAEA monitors, respect the Palestinians' Right of Return and stop attacking Lebanon, Syria and other countries in exchange for international acceptance as an entity of state in the community of civilized nations?" would be a much better question.

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SuperLib: "Smith, you can't blame this ALL on Hamas and the idiot nutbags...."

I don't; I put just as much blame on Israel.

"Does everyone think Hamas should stop firing rockets and stop importing weapons and stop attack Israel in exchange for open borders?"

I think they should, but I don't necessarily think things should or will go in that exact order. Israel has now invaded Gaza City! They need to pull out and draw back a little, then see if any more rockets fall (making sure that it is known that is a condition for pulling back). If all goes well, pull out of Gaza on the condition, again, that no more rockets fall, etc. In other words, Israel must cease fire FIRST.

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Smith, you can't blame this ALL on Hamas and the idiot nutbags....

What ? So you want to lay some of the blame on Palestinian children and women ?

Does everyone think Hamas should stop firing rockets and stop importing weapons and stop attack Israel in exchange for open borders?

The answer is simple. A very definite 'yes'. But you pro-Israel/ pro-USA activists label anyone outraged with child deaths as supporters of Hamas. That is probably why you all come across as right-wing idiots.

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Saying this entire problem is because of Israel's secret desire to kill all of the Palestinians is just absurdly insane. Even you will admit that. You and I go toe to toe on a lot of things, but some people you just can't defend. Compassion isn't the issue. It's men like these who get in the way of a peace process. They need to be exposed and removed from the conversation.

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nutball #1: The answer is simple. A very definite 'yes'. But you pro-Israel/ pro-USA activists label anyone outraged with child deaths as supporters of Hamas. That is probably why you all come across as right-wing idiots.

Thanks, nutball.

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Want a peace process? Answer your own question improved: "Does everyone think "israel" should hand back the land it stole, stop committing genocide, stop developing and using nuclear and other illegal weapons, join the NNPT, accept IAEA monitors, respect the Palestinians' Right of Return and stop attacking Lebanon, Syria and other countries in exchange for international acceptance as an entity of state in the community of civilized nations?" And check out your heroes' comments before you do.

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I've read Martin Luther King's autobiography. I'm guessing you haven't. Nonviolent resistance will work against Israel. How on earth could someone claim to be a force for peace while throwing aside the work of these two men?

Presumptuous, stupid, and completely ignoring what I wrote.

Nonviolent resistance will work against Israel.

Done correctly maybe. But it still is not the only solution.

Back to doing it correctly: I am not sure if Palestinians have the capacity anymore. Please keep in mind that they are on an non-arable patch of sand, closed in by a fence. It would be different if Palestinians were trying to enter an all Israeli school or refusing to move to the back of the bus for an Israeli. It seems to me the Palestinians are out of sight out of mind for the average Israeli. How do you passive resist from inside a fence?

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How do you passive resist from inside a fence?

Read MLK's book and you'll understand. And may I ask...if you think non-violent resistance will not work, then what's your solution? More war?

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SuperLib: I'm not really defending anyone, although in the case of Northlondon he's had some decent posts in the past; I'm just saying that if you think someone's post is utterly foolish, either rebut it with a good argument, or simply ignore it. I've been trying to learn that lesson myself lately, and it seems to have improved my argument overall.

Nothing need be said to people who make incredibly extreme and foolish statements, whether it be saying the Jews are Nazis (literally, and not metaphorically through their actions), Hamas is responsible for the world's problems, or Vegemite tastes good. If they are truly foolish statements with no logic for arguing against, people will see that, and in all likelihood the post will be deleted.

This kind of goes hand in hand with the subject and chiding Israel, though; just because I gave you a little rebuke on the tone of your argument does not mean I am defending the people you were commenting on.

Anyway, stay happy... well... content of the thread aside and all.

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Engage in a debate with a nutball? I much prefer calling you a nutball and listening to your real feelings about Americans and Israelis. So far I've learned that we just love killing people for the heck of it. But apparently me calling you a nutball is a much greater offense then you calling me someone who just loooooooves to see Palestinians die.

That's why you're nutball #1 and not nutball #2.

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SuperLib: One more thing (on the topic).

"Non-violent resistance will work against Israel".

While I am 100% for passive resistance, I don't believe you are correct. Hell, even people like Helter_Skelter and the former pasquinade come on here and call people who argue against Israeli actions 'pacifists'. My not believing it would work is not at all condoning what Hamas does. Rather, it's a statement against Israel's actions. You see, I honestly believe that so long as Israel has carte blanche and weapons/aid support from the US, they believe they are above reproach.

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smithinjapan: While I am 100% for passive resistance, I don't believe you are correct. Hell, even people like Helter_Skelter and the former pasquinade come on here and call people who argue against Israeli actions 'pacifists'. My not believing it would work is not at all condoning what Hamas does. Rather, it's a statement against Israel's actions. You see, I honestly believe that so long as Israel has carte blanche and weapons/aid support from the US, they believe they are above reproach.

Read MLK's book and you'll understand. His policies are directly from Gandhi's which is why people often refer to them at the same time. All I can say is that I've read it and I think it will work. You haven't read it and you don't think it will work. Read his book and then make up your mind. Personally, I think you'll agree.

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SuperLib: "but bring up one US soldier and I can promise you all of your talk about rational statements and good arguments will fly out the window faster than the credibility of a couple of nutballs."

Well, that's another conversation for another topic (namely said US soldier), and it really depends on who the soldier is and what he/she did, if anything. Hell, I was DEFENDING the US soldier the other day in the case where the Japanese man assaulted him, as anyone rightly should, but defend him I did. What's more, while I have in the past been pretty irrational on some threads as I said I'm trying to change where I believe I might be so as to be more rational and benefit the debate at hand.

"As for yourself, I just don't beleive it. I often hear kind and sincere words when you talk about nutballs, terrorists, countries like Iran and Syria..."

As to whether the comments are actually 'rational' or not, that is often incorrectly judged by the person who hears what he or she doesn't wish to. I could say your support of Bush is irrational, but that's your opinion and there is rationality doesn't play a part. Your REASONS for supporting the president might be irrational or rational, but that's something different. The thing is, I really don't support most of what Iran is or does, or Syria, NKorea, etc., but I also don't support a lot of the mentality of people who just want to call everyone in the area of the ME terrorists simply based on where they are from; and it's in these arguments that people assume because I don't support their opinions that I, and other people like me, are automatically for the other party. It just doesn't work that way, and THAT kind of thinking is what is irrational.

Pretty much the only place I remain pig-headed these days is on threads related to GWB and/or his government, but in that case I stand behind anything I say 100%, and evidently so does most of the world.

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SuperLib: "You haven't read it and you don't think it will work."

As said by likeitis, don't assume what I have or haven't done. In this case you happen to be right, but that's only by chance. I do know a lot about passive resistance via Ghandi's take and work on it, though.

Anyway, I'm off.

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I agree with SuperLib, nonviolence would work against Israel.

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I agree with SuperLib, nonviolence would work against Israel.

And I don't quite get your point ? People like myself have been offended by the deaths, sorry murder, of over 200 children at the hands of Israel, funded by the US. So you are saying that the little kids in Gaza should react with non-violence ? The same children that have no arms or political power, that have been blown up in their own homes or in schools. Because nobody here supports Hamas or Hezbollah. We are just outraged at the murder of babies and toddlers. Over 200 of them with their blood on the hands of the US government. So when you call out to these children for non-violence, just what are you talking about ?

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SuperLib,

You aren't fooling me. I know that any agreement that you support has to include the right of return, aka the destruction of Israel.

No, I'm not fooling you. You're fooling yourself. I won't speculate on your motives for ascribing hidden meanings to what has been perfectly plain.

I will support any agreement that works. I support the Palestinian demand for the right of return. However, I think that demand is negotiable. Nevertheless, I doubt that there will be any workable agreement until Israel concedes most if not all of the territory it effectively annexed post 1967.

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There has always been a nation stirred up against Israel when they forgot the way they should go. The solution to this problem is clearly written for all to see. This is a time of correction. We are fighting wars the wrong way. We are ignoring proper guidance that can bring peace.

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smithinjapan

Well, my question is, if Hamas agrees to stop firing rockets, how long do they have to wait until Israel lifts the blockade?

I couldn't see any nation having an open border with another that advocates their annihilation.

Hamas' biggest obstacle is themselves.

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What would you do if a stranger came to your house said that another stranger will now take 60% of your property despite living there for hundreds of years. Based on a agreement between the two other strangers not including you. Not pay you for it just take it. If you disagree they have the right harm you. The Israeli policy for resistance. The one bone break rule.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm95gqdiwJQ

Now since the stranger moved in more of the house is being taken by the stranger by force and against the law. Until the point you and your family are now living in the hall closet. No lights, water, telephone and gas are allowed. You can't even go outside the closet to the kitchen or bathroom because the surrounding area is now the stranger's. The stranger is also giving the other rooms of the house to his friends who can take all the possessions in that room.

Out of rage you fight back and the hall closet gets worst.

I have just the described the creation of the Israeli State. I would love to here your memories of the event.

P.S.

That clip won't be getting much coverage on the US stations, which why so many one sided views here.

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Read MLK's book and you'll understand.

Gee, maybe you could brief me?

I may not have read the man's book, but I do have an inkling of how he worked. Protest marches really got out the message to people who did not even personally know a black man. But the thing is, those protest marches did not happen inside of a fence where reporters have major difficulty going. Those protest marches happened on typical public roads, right in front of everybody.

The trouble with the non-violent approach now is that it is going to take an MLK or a Ghandi to pull it off if its even possible. Expecting that is the same sort of "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" expectation I decried earlier. It sounds to me like the Palestinians have been completely screwed for decades. If they get a Ghandi, I will be extremely satisfied with that. But I am not going to hold my breath hoping one gets born soon. These people have been displaced and shut off for too long for genius to be fostered. The situations of Ghandi and MLK were not exactly wonderful, but they beat this in many ways, not the list of which is simply being able to mingle with those they are passively resisting.

But please do not mistake my understanding of the cause of the rockets to be some sort of support. I support neither party in most of what either has done.

And, it seems most of the U.N. is against Israel anyway and despite the rockets. They have passed resolution after resolution against Israel. How much more passive resistance could you get than that? What has it changed really? I think it will take a Ghandi to squeeze just one more drop of sympathy out the current situation.

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The Israeli policy for resistance. The one bone break rule.

I do not think the Israelis properly factored in the effect of video cameras being commonplace in today's world. But I am sure they will think of some propanda to cover up what they do just like they have been for decades.

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Strewth, as i mentioen earlier you have to be a nutcase or evil to agree with these Israeli murders. Don't worry theough Israel the world is watching, mark my words when karma hits you you'll bloody know it haha.

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Alfybaby - You forgot the other type of person who doesn't condemn Israel. Basically someone who hates allowing evil like Hamas to hide behind women and children. They also have no problem with Israels invasion.

On the other hand, you would have to be a nutcase or evil to agree with Hamas, and their tactics.

Moderator: Please address other posters by their correct user names.

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The Jewish state of Israel is a cold and heartless entity. That being said, they are not new-coming carpet baggers that have ripped off somebody's land, they have a historical claim to the land that goes back thousands of years. Seems to me there is enough sand and olive trees to go around.

The women and children of Gaza are as much victims of Hamas as they are of Israel. Violence begets violence and that is just what has happened. There is a time for armed resistance when your life is threatened but that is not the case here. There is no agenda of genocide on the part of Israel. They govern fairly with regards to those that are not Jewish as long as they are not shooting missiles at the suburbs and sending suicide bombers to push their agendas.

All the bloodshed can stop today as the Israelis will cease their response if Hamas stops its aggression. The Palestinians can establish their state thru peaceful means if they establish a reasonable plan and understand that the process of education and establishing political influence will take time and must begin with creating credibility thu the lack of aggression.

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they have a historical claim to the land that goes back thousands of years.

Its going to take A LOT of birth certificates to prove THAT claim! Then we are going to have to consider the Hittites, the Assyrians, and the people of Jericho if anyone comes along and claims to be a descendent.

And I hope they still got those land deeds! I would not want one Jew accidentally getting another Jew's ancient plot! Then we will just have to move people around again!

Sorry, but this ancient claim thing is just ridiculous. There comes a time when you just have to accept the reality of the modern age, because trying to restore the situation of over a thousand years ago is going to generate a lot more hardship than its worth, and punish the descendents of people who have nothing to do with what their ancestors did, while rewarding the ancestors of another group for nothing they did or suffered.

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