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Israel wants Germany to drop Palestinian statehood plan

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given their recent history, Germany really has NO place in any discussions about Israel.

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Israel is wiping Palestine off the map!

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Given the amount of coverage by this paper following the damning Goldstone Report on Ga za, any chance there'll be a mention of the fact that he's now admitted he was wrong?

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@manfromamerica, and why that?

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afroengineer- think about it.

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Jerusalem should not be given back at all.

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Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Mideast war.

International law is very clear about the inadmissibility of gaining land by war. Israel has since 1967 been illegally occupying that land. They must leave all of it, the Occupied Palestinian Territories does not belong to the Israelis, even if some people choose to call them "settlements"..

The March 11 attack, which Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called “despicable, immoral and inhuman,”

Yeah, but so is the fact that Israelis continue to illegally occupy that land. I can't believe there are parents who choose to raise a family in illegally occupied land!

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Sabiwabi,

"Israel is wiping Palestine off the map!" and Israel's arab neighbours have on numerous times vowed to do the same to Israel. And have attempted to do so several times would you not agree.

"International law is very clear about the inadmissibility of gaining land by war" wow, so maybe then we should go around and return ALL land gained by war. Lets start in Europe, then we can go to the US, and then Asia. Why stop there after all there are lots of borders that have been shaped by wars but you only seem worried about this one?

"I can't believe there are parents who choose to raise a family in illegally occupied land!" so what you are saying there is they deserved what they got because they where on the land illegally in your opinion. So according to you anyone living on land gained by a victory in war is fair game and can be murdered. Nice!!!

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"Israel is wiping Palestine off the map!" and Israel's arab neighbours have on numerous times vowed to do the same to Israel. And have attempted to do so several times would you not agree.

You're simply repeating a zionist talking point. There is one side who has, since the start, been doing the vast majority of killing, terrorizing, and map-wiping; the Israeli side.

Land has indeed been gained by war in ancient history, but in recent history, for example since the "creation" of Israel, international law has been very clear. Ever since 1967, the UN and the entire international community has urged Israel to leave the land it occupied illegally.

"I can't believe there are parents who choose to raise a family in illegally occupied land!" so what you are saying there is they deserved what they got because they where on the land illegally in your opinion.

No. First of all, we don't know who did it or why. But how would you feel about parents bringing along their kids when committing armed bank robbery? Its a shame kids were killed, but I do not at all feel sorry for adult Israelis who choose to live there.

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Sabiwabi,

"You're simply repeating a zionist talking point. There is one side who has, since the start, been doing the vast majority of killing, terrorizing, and map-wiping; the Israeli side" So the zionist talking point hey. Ok maybe you can explain the Arab treatment of Jews after the 1948 Arab - Israeli conflict (you know the murders, forced relocations etc), or maybe you can explain the 1956,1967, and 1973 wars that where instigated against Israel by their neighbours. You say the only map wiping is done by the Israeli side, yeah Israel just goes around invading land for the sake of it dont they. The lands they have conquered have all come about after they were attacked. And havent they given some of that land back? Gaza and Sinai ring a bell. And where does Hamas repeatadly attack Israel from Gaza????

So you are choosing to ignore hundreds of years of history and restart history in 1967 are you? So a good number of countries can gain their borders through wars (some of which they start) and yet when Israel gains territory through being attcked you want to "lets forget history and start here" YEAH GOOD TRY. By the way as Israel is not following international law in your opinion what are your thoughts on the Jordanian rule of barring Jews from the Western wall in breach of the 1949 Armistice Agreement, Article VIII. Or do you just focus on what ISrael does? Dont answer that l know already.

"But how would you feel about parents bringing along their kids when committing armed bank robbery? " So they are criminals according to you and while its sad the kids died the parents deserved it??? "I do not at all feel sorry for adult Israelis who choose to live there." How would you feel if the Japanese started killing Russians in the disputed territories, or Chinese started killing kids in the Spratlys. Or maybe if the Mexicans slipped into the US and slaughtered a few kids in land the US conquered from Mexico. Is that ok? Of course not but if a arab kills a Jew your ok with that. Thats what you wrote!!!

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If Palestine were a country, it would be held responsible for the actions of its militia groups. Let's say a squad from one of those dozen or so groups infiltrates Israel and attacks a school. Then Israel's response would not be "retaliation" any more, but full scale war. Perhaps Palestine's allies -- Syria, Lebanon and several other countries -- might decide to join the fray, deploying aircraft, ships, etc. This time the Arab countries don't have the Soviet Union to resupply their lost munitions and prevent the IDF from occupying Damascus, as it was in a position to do in 1973. So then let there be a Palestinian state only if it can take responsibility for the actions of its radical groups, particularly Hamas. But it either can't or won't. What kind of state will that be?

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And havent they given some of that land back? Gaza and Sinai ring a bell.

Gazans still do not control their own border. They cannot freely leave/enter their own land. They can't export. There are many things they still cannot import. Even when they grow their own food, Israel sends in large tractors escorted by tanks to destroy their crops (recent YouTube video documents this).

So you are choosing to ignore hundreds of years of history and restart history in 1967 are you?

No, you are. For several hundreds of years, that was Palestinian land, not Israeli.

But in recent history, the world community has been following clear international rules, which Israel chooses to ignore by stealing land.

Israel has been ignoring the same international community whose recognition of Israel has been used to legitimize it.

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Or maybe if the Mexicans slipped into the US and slaughtered a few kids in land the US conquered from Mexico.

No! That was a long time ago, when there were not international laws like today. There are no UN resolutions condemning the US occupation of this land. We do not have the entire world community condemning the US for occupying this land.

The concept is actually quite easy to understand, unless you stubbornly refuse to accept it.

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sabiwabi,

Actually l am not stubbornly refusing to accept it. I just find it very hypocritical of the world. All of a sudden after hundreds of years of conquests where land was taken as a result of war, Israel is being critisised for keeping land it gained as a result of its neighbours aggression. Now why do the Gazan's not control their own border, could this have something to do with the Hama's terrorists that hide there and launch rocket and suicide attacks from within the area? Maybe if the palestinians got the strength to stand up to these scum and kick them out they could live peacefully. After all if you dont poke the bear it wont bite true?

And yes it may have been Palestinian land for a couple of hundred years but wasnt there also a land called Israel that was the land of Jewish people since biblical times? or is that a bit of history you choose to over look. You see l believe Palestinians deserve their own land as do Jews. But until the Palestinians stop using terrorism to achieve this it wont happen and if they continue to pursue terrorism as their means to a end then they deserve to be killed.

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sabiwabi: Gazans still do not control their own border. They cannot freely leave/enter their own land. They can't export. There are many things they still cannot import.

Yeah, but they get to fire rockets at civilians. Obviously they feel it's well worth the price they pay.

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sabiwabi: International law is very clear about

terrorism? hehehe....just playing with you.

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SuperLib: "Yeah, but they get to fire rockets at civilians. Obviously they feel it's well worth the price they pay."

You make it sound like all Palestinians fire home-made mortars onto Israeli-occupied land, so would you say all of Israel slaughters innocents? No... only the military does, and only a small group of idiots fire rockets from Palestinian into Israel.

While I don't think they can get all their land back, I DO think they should have and be recognized as their own nation, finally.

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"You make it sound like all Palestinians fire home-made mortars onto Israeli-occupied land"

Is is a PC question?

The democraticaly elected Palestinian "government" lob the indiscriminate rockets. The government surely speak for the people don't you think?

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it's germany's treatment of Jews that opened the final door to Israeli statehood.

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Israel is being critisised for keeping land it gained as a result of its neighbours aggression

That is clearly a zionist talking point you are repeating. No serious scholar believes that, even Israeli ones.

The democraticaly elected Palestinian "government" lob the indiscriminate rockets. The government surely speak for the people don't you think?

And the democratically elected Israeli government attacked with white phosphorus shells a UN school packed with civilians.

There is a recognized state of Palestine, with the 1967 borders. Some countries have yet to recognize these borders officially, but that time will come. "Israel" can't do anything about it.

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And yes it may have been Palestinian land for a couple of hundred years but wasnt there also a land called Israel that was the land of Jewish people since biblical times?

I'm glad you admit that it has been Palestinian land for hundreds of years.

But why would followers of a religion be allowed to kick out the inhabitants of a land just because the land was previously inhabited for a short time thousands of years ago by followers of the same religion?

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"And the democratically elected Israeli government attacked with white phosphorus shells a UN school packed with civilians."

After being hit by indiscriminate rockets?

You're all extremists to me, pro-Israeli or pro-Pal. The fence is, for once, a nice place to sit.

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I’m not Jewish and have no vested interest, except obviously being with the rest of the civilized world in being way-tired of hearing about the Middle-East and their apparent inability to settle differences and live peacefully. This isn’t a new problem that developed after 1948; Arab and Jew have never gotten along or been a friend of the other (nor have the different Arab groups/sects/tribes – whatever friends amongst themselves for that matter).

I would even go so far as to agree with those critical of the Balfour decision and the establishment the Israeli state at the extent of those Palestinians living on the land at the time. The West essentially used its influence and might to force this on the Arab world. Put in the reverse we wouldn’t be so content to accept this.

But the fundamental problem is that Arab and Jew hate each other, always have and always will. If you establish a Palestinian state and give them half of Jerusalem as their capital there will be forever fighting between the two over every square inch and who controls what. No matter of give and take will work until one is gone.

So what should be done? Well I happen to be a fan of Israel and Jewish culture to a degree. Why? Well, they seem quite ‘westernized’ and at least do not by physical acts of terrorism or wanton force wish to spread Zionist rule throughout the globe. They seem content enough to be Jews and promote that within their own community. I haven’t heard of any Rabbis telling their congregation to kill the infidel. I live in NY and haven’t seen any Hassidic Jews strapped with explosives trying to blow up our landmarks because we are the ‘evil Western Satan’. I doubt that if someone draws a cartoon of Abraham that they will have their throat cut in the streets.

We have some desert land out in the Western part of the U.S. that I believe is rather sparsely populated. Let’s call it the State of Israel and bring them all here lock, stock and barrel. Yes, they would divorced from lands that have been sacredly holy for thousands of years. But doesn’t there come a time when fruitful and happy living trumps some old rocks and sand that your ancestors trod upon for thousands of years? It’s a win-win situation. ‘Winning’ to quote Charley Sheen. They have a kick-ass army that we could most certainly use. Combine ours with theirs and it would be an amazing force. We could easily co-exist. They could have their own land, we could have an influx of people that would add culturally, intellectually and spiritually with the American experience.

I think it’s a great plan; Palestine gets their land back, Israel gets a state, lots of people lose a strong bitching point in world politics. Then the Arabs themselves can start fighting over dirt, rocks and sand and it can be their own affair.

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Israel's a pretty place Tigermoth.

I think religion's a load of poop but even I admit the place has something about it.

Let's face it, Netanyuahu discretely using the Holocaust Trump Card the manfromamerica sceaming about. Despite the fact that the Holocaust will shortly no longer be in living memory for the Germans....

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Whoops missed out two "is" there. Damned blackberry

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I'll bet Israel is a pretty place. I genuinely do like the people, at least those I've met. Like you probably do, I think all religions are a crock to a large degree; simply a tool designed to promote fear and keep the masses in line (and their pocketbooks open). But some of them at least seem a bit more harmless and promote reasonable values.

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Just to make a point Palestinians = Phillistines so somewhere in there a Palestinian "country" exists somewhere in there since the annals of history. But I do like the idea of the Palestinian state so as many have said, they'll be fully responsible for the actions of the people in their country and it won't be skirmishs, or repression, or w/e people want to paint it when terrorist groups start firing and attacking Isreal AGAIN it will be full scale war.

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Well put Tigermoth, and exactly alone my line of thinking. I've never been to Isreal myself, although my aunt decided to go and become a citizen of Isreal due to her religious views. They will be fighting each other forever, they keep instigating each other but most people would side with Isreal in many cases.

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tigermouth: But the fundamental problem is that Arab and Jew hate each other, always have and always will

The fundamental problem is that many Palestinians, though an endless military campaign, have created a radicalized population that really knows nothing more than war and religious doctrine. They're also a proxy of Iran, a country who has absolutely no interest in the situation other than to use the rest of the Palestinians as hostage so they can wage war on Israel. Both sides are not the same.

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AdamB said: "Israel is wiping Palestine off the map!" and Israel's arab neighbours have on numerous times vowed to do the same to Israel. And have attempted to do so several times would you not agree."

Love it. The mistranslation and lie about "wipe off the map" so often applied to Iran is now the vow of several of Israel's neighbors! And one war started by Israel's neighbors now becomes several too!

Why, one would think Israel was the most hated nation on the planet! Well AdamB, I can't say you are helping matters with such biased exaggerations. You are going to make Israel about as popular as the boy who cried wolf!

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Superlib, I thought the fundamental problem was that Israel ignores basic principles, such as self determination and other U.N. guidelines, principles and resolutions. Why should Israel plead to Germany to deny Palestinians statehood?

Bizarre that you accuse Iran of holding Palestinians hostage in a psychological sense, given the fact that Israel is holding Palestinians hostage in a literal sense. Well, maybe not bizarre but more like telling! And what is so surprising about a people being denied self-determination going militant?

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"I thought the fundamental problem was that Israel ignores basic principles, such as self determination and other U.N. guidelines, principles and resolutions..."

"Self-determination" is a basic UN principle?That is quite amusing to read.

"And what is so surprising about a people being denied self-determination going militant?"

Are you referring to Israel, or to the variegated population gathered in "Palestine"?The Arab powers in the region don't want an independent Palestine unless its creation involves or ensures destruction of the only democracy in the region.

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Mangaman, As you obviously dont know much about history here are some facts for you to read.

1967 Six day war. Israel attacked Egypt airbases after Egypt massed troops on Israels border, kicked out the UN observers in the buffer zone between Israel and Sinai and took their positions, The next day Jordan and Iraq started massing troops on the other borders. So what should they have done sat and waited to be attacked? 1967 - 70 War of attrition, initiated by Egypt 1973 Yom Kippur war, Initiated as a suprise attack by Egypt and Syria against Israel. The other wars (invasions of Lebanon) where responses to terrorist attacks being conducted from that territory. Much like the US invasion of Afghanistan was to expel terrorist organisations and there sponsors (I hope you dont support that either). And the other war was the Sinai war which Israel, France and Britain attacked Egypt over its closure of the Suez canal. So what exactly is your point.

As for you point critisising my "wipe off the map" comment how else would you explain that over the past 50 years that the following arab countries Egypt, Sudan, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Kuwait, Iran. Not to mention others that have supported terrorist activities against Israel. Have tried to invade, attack and destroy Israel? Please l would love to hear your answer

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I’m not Jewish and have no vested interest, except obviously being with the rest of the civilized world in being way-tired of hearing about the Middle-East and their apparent inability to settle differences and live peacefully.

This is not about two neighbours who can't get along. It is about followers of one religion from all over the world getting together to steal land, and terrorize and murder the inhabitants, who have been living there for many generations.

Gazans still do not control their own border. They cannot freely leave/enter their own land. They can't export. There are many things they still cannot import. Even when they grow their own food, Israel sends in large tractors escorted by tanks to destroy their crops (recent YouTube video documents this). Despite all this, as the world sits on the fence, most of the Palestinian response has been peaceful, but we only hear about the occasional rocket.

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smithinjapan: You make it sound like all Palestinians fire home-made mortars onto Israeli-occupied land

Nope, that's just what you insist on reading into every post. In about 99% of my posts I make a clear difference between militants and Palestinians, and in that post I even mentioned how they are being held hostage by Iran, obviously a reference to Palestinians who aren't militants.

But you have your script ready on a moment's notice so go ahead and cut and paste it...

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Sabiwabi,

"Gazans still do not control their own border. They cannot freely leave/enter their own land. They can't export" see yoou are wrong they seem to be able to export death quite well via there rockets and suicide bombers. Maybe if they ceased that export then things might change for them.

You seem to downplay things when you say "most of the Palestinian response has been peaceful, but we only hear about the occasional rocket." By occasional you do mean 150 rocket attacks and 250 mortar attacks in 2010 alone. Which is down from the 569 rockets and 289 mortars fired in 2009.

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Lieberman wrote: "Self-determination" is a basic UN principle?That is quite amusing to read.

Well, here, chuckle at this. From wiki on self-determination:

In 1941 Allies of World War II signed the Atlantic Charter and accepted the principle of self-determination. In January 1942 twenty-six states signed the Declaration by United Nations, which accepted those principles.

You Israel lovers love to toss out specifics open to interpretation, but you always mega fail on the basics that are not.

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Mangaman:"In 1941 Allies of World War II signed the Atlantic Charter and accepted the principle of self-determination. In January 1942 twenty-six states signed the Declaration by United Nations, which accepted those principles."

Isreal was created in 1948.

"Palestine" basically dates from 1967.

No Arab or Muzlim nation has ever recognized the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

It is so easy shooting down your selective take on the issue.

"You Israel lovers..."

Please do not assume your embarrassing (and frankly repugnant) identification with something as base a common denominator as race is automatically shared by the rest of us.I support Israel because it is a democracy.It is secular.Non-Jews (Arabs) are elected to the Knesset.Women and men are basically equal.Homosexuals are treated like human beings.It is "multi-racial", accepting African and Sudanese refugees.I see none of these developments in Palestine or from their Iranian backers and armament suppliers.

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Actually almost all the "Palestinians" are descendants of people that were kicked out of Jordan whose population is something like 98 percent Palestinian. There never was a country called Palestine, that is the name the Romans gave the land after they conquered Israel.

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hworta, Palestine declared independence in 1989. Palestine exists. The United States of America also exists despite there being no such nation before 1776. In fact, one could say it existed as soon as the rebellion started. Its just that in this case, the Palestinians have been rebelling for decades. Again, self-determination.

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Lieberman2012, You've painted a beautiful picture of "Israel". Strange that this is the same one that recently murdered 1400 unarmed civilians in Gaza, including attacking a packed UN school with white phosphorous.

hworta269, Thank you for pointing out that Palestine has been there since the days of the Romans. But what exactly gives certain Jews the right to go there and kick out the Palestinian inhabitants?

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No one kicked out the Palestinians. Well Jordan did and during Israel's war of Independence Israel offered the people living their citizenship in the new Israel State. The Arab armies told the Muslims living there to leave so they could annihilate the "Jews" easier. Everyone that left was not welcomed back once Israel won the war.

Palestine is what the Roman's called Israel. That ahem would make Jews the original Palestinians.

Israel gave them the west bank and Gaza and all they do is launch rockets and kill murder innocent people. Hamas is a terrorist organization with genocidal tenancies. They put rocket launchers on the roofs of schools and hospitals and store their ammunition under their kids beds, they are not nice innocent people. Furthermore there has been more Israelis kicked off of land they have owned for generations in the name of peace then anything else. The west bank and Gaza strip were left with intact industries, facilities, factories, green houses and infrastructure. Once the "Palestinians" took over they burned it all to the ground and blamed their troubles on Israel.

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