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Israeli attacks on Gaza complicate Obama's Mideast policy

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Should go something like this:

Obama: Israel, stop the fighting or lose our support. Period.

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Isreal is taking advantage of a moment between presidents and putting Barack on notice that they intend to use him. Barack went down to Florida to get the Jewish vote and gave his word of support for the jewish nation and they intend to make him eat those words.

Boy I knew he'd regret those actions and words. Now let's see how he handles this situation. The only good part is he isn't saying anything right now. It could really bite. < :-)

Moderator: There is no reason for you to refer to Obama as Barack. Obama or President-elect Obama will be fine, thank you.

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Christ, I said he screwed up saddling up next to them when he did. I'm not surprised to see the Isrealites use an opportunity like this. I've never been their advocate. < :-)

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AIPAC who brags about owning, Obama and US politics call other anti-Semitic when the real Semites are being oppressed by a people calling theselves Semites. Obama must keep Israel Jewish due to the power the religious fundamentalists in US have. As a Christian the biblical prohecy was that in order for Jesus to return to earth Israel needs to be Jewish. Muslim will burn and so will Jews if they do not convert to Christianity. Thats why Obama supports Israel..

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I'm not sure why this is particularly complicated. Hamas denies Israel's right to exist. They've vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. They've launched thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians and have been doing so long before they were elected in June 2007. The only thing that's different this time is that after repeated warnings to halt the rocket attacks, they're getting a well deserved punch in the mouth for not doing so. The only way this could complicate things for Obama is if he plans to reverse his previous statements affirming Israel's right to self-defense.

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Shiuu <br/> Israel is driving the Palestinian into the sea. It has allready killed 1000s of Palestinian civilians including large number of children and women. Israel brutal act is indefensible.

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The killing fields virtually belong to Israel.: 'According to the Oslo Accords, Israel retains control of air space, territorial waters, offshore maritime access, the population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports as well as the tax system.'--Wikipedia.

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shams:

Cry me a river. When Hamas stops firing rockets at civilians and sending suicide bombers to blow up school buses in Israel, then they might have a point.

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Shiuu I believe when Israel give back the occupied lands (as recognized by the United Nations). Then Israel might have a point. Israel is legally responsible of the occupied lands as buttamimi mentioned. <br/> By the way I am against any violance regardless of the reason, therefore, I am against both parties.

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But I’m hopeful that as this transition comes...that strong presidential leadership can make a difference here.

You mean the new president is somehow going to end the centuries-old quest of the Muslim Arabs to rid the "Infidel" from the Middle East? I'd like to see that.

the president-elect would honor the “important bond” between the United States and Israel.

What a disappointment to all the first-world leftists duped by the "Palestinian" propaganda machine.

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I think President elect Obama needs to send Bill Clinton to help things out. Clinton could show the Hamas how to stroke their barrells and teach the Israelis to polish their helmets.

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I think Americans need to realize that they are a part of the problem and they always have.

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ptolemy ( 5:22 ) - Har!

itcher74: "I think Americans are part of the problem and they always have"

Hey, we're not the ones who carved up the Middle East.

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But we are the ones who have given billions of dollars of economic aid to Arab countries like Egypt.

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It's very interesting that the supposedly liberal media in the US are very hesitant to criticize Israel's murderous attacks on Gaza. An intelligent Mid-East policy, if one is to be found in the new US administration, must have some degree of intelligent debate, not this "Israel's Right, Everyone Else's Wrong" attitude. We have already seen where this gets us: nowhere. Ignorance has complicated, and will only serve to further complicate, US policy on the Middle-East. Iraq proved that.

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But we are the ones who have given billions of dollars of economic aid to Arab countries like Egypt. <br/> And how much billions of dollars and arms to Israel? Much more indeed. <br/> You are feeding the both parties to continue the struggle. <br/> America needs to take actions in both sides if it is really interested in stabilizing the area.

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Shams, let your nation stabilize the area so we can take a smoke break.

Thank you.

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http://europenews.dk/en/node/17762

Egypt's foreign minister is blaming Hamas for all of this.

Yes, it definitely complicates President-elect Obama's foreign policy when the Palestinians' Arab neighbours start to sound like the Neo-Cons.

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This is all a cultural misunderstanding....If Israel doesn't have a sense of humor...well, then the hell with 'em.

These repeated rocket attacks into Northern Israel are but a little Hamas expression of fun and games!

Being that the entire Middle East is essentially a 7th century theme park, and having observed similar festivities first hand, let me explain.

The fun starts when the slowest camel in the oasis is selected by a revered tribal elder and a rocket propelled grenade is inserted into, ah, um......well, where no camel would like to have a rocket propelled grenade inserted, and the animal is then trotted about the encampment by the rope attached to his nose ring in a tight circle, picking up speed as a slow fuse is lit on the improvised explosive device protruding from the camel... once the propellent ignites, the camel takes off like he's got a J.A.T.O booster strapped on his back, which in fact he does, pirouetting skywards as the tribal elder takes cover, and the camel, due to the momentum circles the wadi several times before detonation. Once detonation occurs, the children, who by this time have been awakened in their tents by their parents, stack their little Kalashnikovs and run out squealing with joy and laughter to the impact crater and regions beyond where the camel landed and collect choice bits and pieces of the camel,(the nose, the spleen, the testicles, the eyes), all collected for a nutritious Ramadan soup only eaten after sundown. All the while chanting, "Ach Rachnoph al'Saleem, Ach Rachnoph al' Saleem!!!" (roughly translated, "so do to Israel, Lord!, So do to Israel, Lord )

Its a bit like a Pinata, ....only you get soup.

Hamas and their Hezbollah handlers are only trying to 'share the fun' with Israel, but Israel seemingly isn't getting the joke... all the while never forgetting their stated objective of "Driving Israel into the Sea". It's in their constitution and by-laws... It's not just rhetoric. So...if Israel finds herself on a little hunting expedition in Gaza stopping the rockets (270 at last count, this weekend), that are raining down death on their civilian population in Northern Israel, you might want to think about cutting her a little slack.

Remember Israel, Lord...for she is small (and at the moment, fairly pissed.)

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Israel maybe small, but let's not forget that their are more Jews in New York City, USA than in all of Israel and not that many American Jews with private charities and in the US government send billions of dollars to the Jewish state but that many American Christians also believe that it is their biblical duty to "defend" Israel as it is somewhere written in the Bible by who knows who,so great recipe for this mess called the "HOLY LAND" by at least 3 of the world's major religions???

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The Israelis are horrid and beastly. I saw on BBC loads of dead children!!

Israel you are terrorists. I hope Obama condemns your evil massacre.

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The Israelis are horrid and beastly terrorists, but this is nothing new, they have been like this for at least the past 6 decades. But as usual, western leaders will let them continue their genocide, an even give them more weapons and money.

The US and all other countries who back Israel are also responsible for this genocide.

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On the Israelis commitin' "genocide..."

Oh, please.

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On the Israelis commitin' "genocide..." Oh, please.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Israel has already committed and continues to commit genocide against the Palestinian people.

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USAROnin- You only ever say positive things about Israel.

They are wicked, killing so many innocents and terrorising the region with the threat of their illegal nuclear arsenal.

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"I think Americans need to realize that they are a part of the problem and they always have"

so true

Israel needs to learn that they are only breeding the next generation of hate.. they were doing that already before these last few days. The way they treat people day to day its no surprise they have alot of people that hate them and will continue to hurt them.

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But I’m hopeful that as this transition comes, as we look to January, that strong presidential leadership can make a difference here.”

I can we all can agree that any help would be good.

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888naf, your United Nations created the State of Israel, not "America".

Take responsibility.

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Mike Barrymore, I put things in their proper perspective.

You obviously hate Jews when you call them "wicked", and so on. I don't care, but at least be honest about what's goin' on.

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USARonin- I personally do not hate anyone love.

Just watch the news on telly now and tell me this is not pure wickedness. This government was elected.

Poor Obama, Israel is putting him in a terrible situation just before he becomes president.

Israel is acting so sly and callously. Seeing all the dead on telly made me and my partner cry. We couldn't eat our lunch, the images were so horrific.

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JackBernstein, there's no such thing as genocide "in part" and you well knew that before you jazzed up your presented definition of it.

You either have genocide or you don't. Genocided is a complete and thorough undertakin' and there's no "whole, or in part" about it.

You know that, so why say otherwise?

I see...

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Honestly....the Palestinian supporters here debate like angry children. You probably have valid points to make (both Israel and Palestine can be blamed) but you suicide bomb them as they come out of your mouth. If you speak more like an intelligent adult then your words will be more powerful and you'll probably see an increase in supporters. But just like the militants you support, you're just blindly firing away hoping to hit any target in sight. You're doing more harm than good....trust me. I'm from white, middle class America and I can honestly tell you that no one wants to agree with you even if they do agree with you. You're too much of a liability to be seen with.

Get with the program, guys. If you want to change things then you have to learn how to play the game.

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MikeBarrymore, your posts belie your state that you "personally do not hate anyone".

If you want to stop bawlin' as you say you and your partner are doin', I recommend a switch from the Beeb and Al Jezeera to somethin' more soothin' and more unbiased.

That's the ticket.

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USARonin- Crying is a sign of being human.

Anyone who watched the BBC news would have cried, if they had any decency.

I expect a lovely man like Obama also cried when seeing the massacres. I hope he really give Israel a good ticking off.

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MikeBarrymore, Obama's goin' to be a big disappointment for you.

He's already changed on what he told you he was goin' to do on Iraq-Afghanistan. Check out his pick from the Pentagon. I wouldn't count on him to give Israel a good dressin' down after he gets sworn in.

Yup, a big disappointment for youd all in all if you'll remember what he told ya.

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USARonin- Obama is sweet and kind.

He will tell Israel to stop their beastly behaviour.

Just atch him flex his hunky muscle and give Israel the stern telling off all of us peace lovers know they deserve.

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MikeBarrymore, yeah, keep runnin' with those thoughts.

You'll be OK.

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Shouldn't the headlines read "Israeli Counter Attacks"? After all, doesn't Hamas fire missiles at Israel on a daily basis? So when Israel defends itself we then get headlines and comments about how the military actions by Israel make negotiations difficult. Seems to me that the world has this whole thing kind of twisted. If people were to shoot at me on a daily basis, I might be prone to defend myself with overwhelming force so that future attacks will no longer be possible. Suppose Hamas stops firing missiles. I think there would be no military action by Israel.

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forget about the dead palestinians, dead israelis, we all need to rally behind Obama because the Intifada is now so much more complicated. baaaaaaaaaaa!

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I'm heartened that within Israel a range of views are being expressed, far broader than what's reported in the US media:

"A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting. The fact that Hamas may have gone too far with its rockets is not the justification of the Israeli policy for the past few decades, for which it justly merits an Iraqi shoe to the face."

Zvi Barel writes: "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire."

http://www.haaretz.com/

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If Israel wanted peace + security, why did they not use the 6 month cease fire as an opportunity to bombard the Palestinians with aid, rights, food, and dialogue? Why has Israel never tried this formula? Quite simple: provoke a people, they become aggressive. If they are aggressive, you have an excuse to oppress them further and avoid talks for peace and statehood. Clearly something Israel does not want to give. I still don´t understand how some people can still support someone who first stole some ones country, then killed and expeled the rightful citizens just to follow them and kill them in their refugee camps outside your stolen country.

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While the ceasefire was in effect, there were no Israeli casualties of Hamas.

To demonstrate the effectiveness of the Israeli response, the following issues (raised by Juan Cole) need to be addressed. It's more difficult of course, than simply attacking Israel's critics (as many posters have), but definitely a more intellectually satisfying endeavor:

Do the Israelis expect the population at some point to turn against Hamas, blaming it for the blockade and the bombardment? But by destroying what was left of the Gaza middle class, surely they a throwing people into the arms of Hamas. The US experience of bombing North Vietnam and mining Haiphong Harbor, etc., was that it only stiffened Hanoi's resolve. The massive Israeli bombardment of Lebanon in 2006 did not achieve any significant objectives. In fact, Hezbollah was politically strengthened; it now sits in the Lebanese cabinet and has been recognized as a formal national guard for the south of the country.

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I don't see any serious Arab relief for Palestinians and I don't expect to see any ever. Israelis and Westerners have done more for the Palestinians than Arabs.

You're complainin' about the wrong folks.

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Obama is going to get America knee-deep in the Middle East and he will fail just like every other world leader has for the past 60 years. There can be no peace in the Middle East until terrorists such as Hamas, Syria, Iran, and Arabs in general accept Israel's right to exist. Once Hamas gives up aggressive military actions then Israel will stop having to defend itself.

USARonin is right about the plight of the Palestinians. They are being used, willingly I might add, by their fellow Arabs. The US and Europe provides the Palestinian people with millions upon millions of dollars worth of aid each year. The surrounding Arab nations could have taken them in and integrated them into their own societies but they have not and will not do so. The reason why they do not help the Palestinians is obvious, they are much more useful as an irritant and as fodder for aggressive actions against Israel - whose existence they will not accept.

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I do believe that any nation/people have the right to defend themselves. But in the same breath the old saying comes to mind, violence begets violence.

This will only make some folks more determined to take up arms.

This is making Israel look real bad in many places. You hear the news state that 300+ Palestinians while only 3 Israelis have died. Israel is not looking good at all. They need to rethink this strategy before they continue forward with it.

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Typical of the mainstream media to think it is all about Obama.

It isn't.

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itcher74 says:

I still don´t understand how some people can still support someone who first stole some ones country, then killed and expeled the rightful citizens just to follow them and kill them in their refugee camps outside your stolen country.

The Jews did not "steal" the Palestinians country. The United Nations used it's authority to create the state of Israel. The existence of Israel is a matter of international law. If someone does not like this fact they should take it up with the UN. People can support Israel because they believe that they have the legitimate right to exist based on international law. Arabs did not accept this and attacked them from day one. Most Arabs still do not accept Israel's right to exist and as a result lend tacit or direct support to terrorists such as Hamas. The reason that refugee camps exist is because Arabs (including Palestinians) refuse to accept the international sanctioned right of Israel to exist and have been attacking Israel since day one. In addition, other Arab nations refuse to take the refugees. The only reason why Israel kills anyone inside the refugee camps is because the camps are being used as bases for military attacks and terrorists acts against Israel.

Bottom line, if you don't like what is happening to the Palestinians, take your case to the United Nations - they are the one's repsonsible for the current situation in the Middle East. Next, take your case to the Arab nations - all of whom refuse to accept and resettle Palestinian refugees. Finally, don't expect the US or Europe to solve the Palestinian question - that is up to the countries of the Middle East and the United Nations.

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Betzee: A million and a half human beings, most of them downcast and desperate refugees, live in the conditions of a giant jail, fertile ground for another round of bloodletting

Ain't life grand under Hamas?

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The Jews did not "steal" the Palestinians country. The United Nations used it's authority to create the state of Israel. The existence of Israel is a matter of international law.

If you speak of international law UN has demanded Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders and give independence to the remainding 20% of historic Palestine divided into West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. So Israel has no right occupying Gaza and as a occupying force the Palestinians people are protected by the 4th geneva Conventions. And as refugees Palestinians have a right of return. This is a right tthat the Palestinians have according to internatinal law. Although Israel has so far refused to recognize this right.

All refugees have an internationally recognized right to return to areas from which they have fled or were forced, to receive compensation for damages, and to either regain their properties or receive compensation and support for voluntary resettlement. The United States government has forcefully supported this right in recent years for refugees from Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and elsewhere.

In the specific case of the Palestinians, this right was affirmed by the United Nations Resolution 194 of 1948, and has been reaffirmed repeatedly by that same body, and has also been recognized by independent organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

In 1948 Palestinian were dispossessed, displaced, and uprooted from their homes. 800,000 Palestinians (two-thirds of the population) became homeless and this was the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem. Israeli forces depopulated 530 Palestinian towns and villages, most of which were demolished to prevent the return of the refugees. So this was an outright theft whether UN agreed to it or not. A person with morals and who believes in justice would no have a difficult time seeing the obvious. The newly established Israeli government confiscated Palestinian land and properties and turned them over to the newly arrived Jewish immigrants from Europe. Although Jews owned only about seven percent of the land, Israel was established on 78 percent of Palestine. Conclusion is that the Palestinians have got an unfair teratment until this day.

Now as I said earlier if someone still support someone who first stole some ones country, then killed and expeled the rightful citizens just to follow them and kill them in their refugee camps outside your stolen country they need to check their moral compass.

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One can certainly criticize Obama for offering nothing new. But to do that, you gotta admit GWB's "ballots and bullets" approach failed.

The Israelis chose to act between administrations. President elect Obama deferred to lame duck Bush who gave the same advice he did in 2006, "Do what you gotta do, but try to minimize civilian casualties." So we can expect the Palestinians to drag out the bodies of dead women and children. This will be greeted with, "Well you used them as human shields cause you can't fight like men. Not our fault."

Bottom line: Another problem which has been dumped in Obama's lap.

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You cannot believe the reality that Israel isn't going anywhere while simultaneously believing that an armed struggle is the answer for the Palestinians.

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itcher: Now as I said earlier if someone still support someone who first stole some ones country, then killed and expeled the rightful citizens just to follow them and kill them in their refugee camps outside your stolen country they need to check their moral compass.

The militants' policy of revenge is counterproductive to the well-being of Palestinians. Unless you can come up with an answer for that then you're just wasting our time with your history lessons. I have 60 years of evidence on my side showing how an armed struggle hasn't gotten the Palestinians a pot to piss in. What evidence do you have that shows a policy of revenge is a good option?

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'The scale and ferocity of Israel's attacks came as a shock to many but tensions had been building after the expiry on 18 December of a ceasefire. Hamas had offered to renew the ceasefire if Israel reopened Gaza's border crossings. The strip had been sealed by Israel in an Economic Siege aimed at toppling Hamas. The blockade has brought the territory near Economic Collapse.'--The Independent.

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Leaders Lie, Civillian Die.--Robert Fisk, Independent: We've got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don't care any more – providing we don't offend the Israelis. It's not clear how many of the Gaza dead are civilians, but the response of the Bush administration, not to mention the pusillanimous reaction of Gordon Brown, reaffirm for Arabs what they have known for decades: however they struggle against their antagonists, the West will take Israel's side. As usual, the bloodbath was the fault of the Arabs – who, as we all know, only understand force.

Ever since 1948, we've been hearing this balderdash from the Israelis – just as Arab nationalists and then Arab Islamists have been peddling their own lies: that the Zionist "death wagon" will be overthrown, that all Jerusalem will be "liberated". And always Mr Bush Snr or Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Jnr or Mr Blair or Mr Brown have called upon both sides to exercise "restraint" – as if the Palestinians and the Israelis both have F-18s and Merkava tanks and field artillery. Hamas's home-made rockets have killed just 20 Israelis in eight years, but a day-long blitz by Israeli aircraft that kills almost 300 Palestinians is just par for the course.

The blood-splattering has its own routine. Yes, Hamas provoked Israel's anger, just as Israel provoked Hamas's anger, which was provoked by Israel, which was provoked by Hamas, which ... See what I mean? Hamas fires rockets at Israel, Israel bombs Hamas, Hamas fires more rockets and Israel bombs again and ... Got it? And we demand security for Israel – rightly – but overlook this massive and utterly disproportionate slaughter by Israel. It was Madeleine Albright who once said that Israel was "under siege" – as if Palestinian tanks were in the streets of Tel Aviv.

By last night, the exchange rate stood at 296 Palestinians dead for one dead Israeli. Back in 2006, it was 10 Lebanese dead for one Israeli dead. This weekend was the most inflationary exchange rate in a single day since – the 1973 Middle East War? The 1967 Six Day War? The 1956 Suez War? The 1948 Independence/Nakba War? It's obscene, a gruesome game – which Ehud Barak, the Israeli Defence Minister, unconsciously admitted when he spoke this weekend to Fox TV. "Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game," Barak said.

Exactly. Only the "rules" of the game don't change. This is a further slippage on the Arab-Israeli exchanges, a percentage slide more awesome than Wall Street's crashing shares, though of not much interest in the US which – let us remember – made the F-18s and the Hellfire missiles which the Bush administration pleads with Israel to use sparingly.

Quite a lot of the dead this weekend appear to have been Hamas members, but what is it supposed to solve? Is Hamas going to say: "Wow, this blitz is awesome – we'd better recognise the state of Israel, fall in line with the Palestinian Authority, lay down our weapons and pray we are taken prisoner and locked up indefinitely and support a new American 'peace process' in the Middle East!" Is that what the Israelis and the Americans and Gordon Brown think Hamas is going to do?

Yes, let's remember Hamas's cynicism, the cynicism of all armed Islamist groups. Their need for Muslim martyrs is as crucial to them as Israel's need to create them. The lesson Israel thinks it is teaching – come to heel or we will crush you – is not the lesson Hamas is learning. Hamas needs violence to emphasise the oppression of the Palestinians – and relies on Israel to provide it. A few rockets into Israel and Israel obliges.

Not a whimper from Tony Blair, the peace envoy to the Middle East who's never been to Gaza in his current incarnation. Not a bloody word.

We hear the usual Israeli line. General Yaakov Amidror, the former head of the Israeli army's "research and assessment division" announced that "no country in the world would allow its citizens to be made the target of rocket attacks without taking vigorous steps to defend them". Quite so. But when the IRA were firing mortars over the border into Northern Ireland, when their guerrillas were crossing from the Republic to attack police stations and Protestants, did Britain unleash the RAF on the Irish Republic? Did the RAF bomb churches and tankers and police stations and zap 300 civilians to teach the Irish a lesson? No, it did not. Because the world would have seen it as criminal behaviour. We didn't want to lower ourselves to the IRA's level.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.

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SuperLib .The militants' policy of revenge is counterproductive to the well-being of Palestinians.

As I already have said before to you is that every Palestinian leader has agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine according to international law and agreements. So please do not waste my time in making me repeat the same lines over and over just for you.

Why is it that Israel will not agree to this and why is it that US agrees to this yet support Israeli occupation and aggression? And you should keep supporting the people who stole land and killed the rightful owners of the land and who has not ever apologized for stealing their home and land and placed them in refugee camps and now want to start a massacre because some people are firing home made rockets because they are starving.

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itcher74 says:

If you speak of international law UN has demanded Israel to retreat to the 1967 borders and give independence to the remainding 20% of historic Palestine divided into West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

Well, the problem with this argument is that Arab countries blew it by attacking and threatening Israel since the day of their lawful creation by the United Nations. If they were not attacked, Israel would not be "occupying" land that was not originally authorized to them by the UN. Arab nations believed that they could defeat Israel through force and their gamble resulted in defeat. The consequences of this are the loss of territory to the nation that was wrongly attacked to begin with. Why didn't Arab nations consider this potential outcome before they invaded Iraq on the day that the UN created Israel? The answer is that they were confident that they would win.

If and when Arab nations and the Palestinians agree to a peace treaty and non-aggression pact against the Israelis, then any claims for lands such as those in the Gaza could be considered. But whenever Israel unilaterally withdraws from occupied lands they are attacked from terrorist bases in the places they left. Israel has agreed in principle to land for peace and a two state solution. However, Arabs will not accept this because it still includes the existence of Israel in the Middle East.

I agree that Palestinian refugees should at least receive compensation for property that they have lost as a result of the UN action to create Israel and even for the land captured as a result of Arab invasions and military aggression against Israel. However, Israel should only provide such compensation as a part of a comprehensive non-aggression pact.

Now as I said earlier if someone still support someone who first stole some ones country, then killed and expeled the rightful citizens just to follow them and kill them in their refugee camps outside your stolen country they need to check their moral compass.

Anyone who supports terrorism - such as the Palestinians and many Arab countries such as Iran and Syria - are the ones that should be checking their moral compass. If Arabs and Palestinians would just stop attacking Israel then all is possible. But Arabs will not allow this because it means that Israel will continue to exist in the Middle East.

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Wolfpack:

Well, the problem with this argument is that Arab countries blew it by attacking and threatening Israel since the day of their lawful creation by the United Nations. If they were not attacked, Israel would not be "occupying" land that was not originally authorized to them by the UN.

No kidding. Everyone cries about '67 borders but never stops to consider why those borders came into existence. Israel has been invaded again and again by its Arab neighbors -- wars that had they lost there's no doubt they would have been massacred to the last man (How do we know this? Because the Arabs said as much when they announced their intention to drive every last Jew into the sea) -- Too bad for the Arabs, Israel won ever one of those wars and seized territory in the process.

Israel is under no obligation to return territory seized during a defensive war. It'd be like telling the Chinese to give Manchuko back to the Japanese.

But guess what? Israel did give Gaza to the former Egyptians (that's right, there's never been a state known as "Palestine") -- and what did they get for it? The election of Hamas and thousands of rockets into Israeli cities.

Now Hamas is getting a well deserved punch in the mouth for their rocket attacks. I say good on the Israelis. Kill every last member of Hamas and start from zero. If the next Palestinian government launches rockets, do the same to them.

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Well, the problem with this argument is that Arab countries blew it by attacking and threatening Israel since the day of their lawful creation by the United Nations. If they were not attacked, Israel would not be "occupying" land that was not originally authorized to them by the UN. Arab nations believed that they could defeat Israel through force and their gamble resulted in defeat. The consequences of this are the loss of territory to the nation that was wrongly attacked to begin with. Why didn't Arab nations consider this potential outcome before they invaded Iraq on the day that the UN created Israel? The answer is that they were confident that they would win.

Apart from your fantasy which you pretend to be history you are basically not disagreeing with the fact that it was Israel who were the aggressors because they went in and stole land from the Palestinians and killed them first. Palestinians did not go and take land from the Jews and kill them first. Therefore since the aggressors are Israel the fault lies with Israel. That´s what I´m saying and everyone is saying this except those who can´t come to terms with reality. You who like to talk about UN. UN also have said backed by USA that United Nations Resolution 194 of 1948, which grants every Palestinian who were robbed of their land and property the Right Of return.

If and when Arab nations and the Palestinians agree to a peace treaty and non-aggression pact against the Israelis, then any claims for lands such as those in the Gaza could be considered. But whenever Israel unilaterally withdraws from occupied lands they are attacked from terrorist bases in the places they left. Israel has agreed in principle to land for peace and a two state solution. However, Arabs will not accept this because it still includes the existence of Israel in the Middle East.

As I already told SuperLib, every Palestinian leader has accepted to make a state according to 1967 borders. United Nations Resolution 242 of 1967 which also US agreed to states that Israel should return all land confiscated and occupied in 1967 which means West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. The 1967 war was started when Israeli forces did a pre empty strike and moved into the rest of historic Palestine.

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itcher74 says:

Therefore since the aggressors are Israel the fault lies with Israel.

It is a fact that on the day that Israel became a nation, Arab nations attacked them. Do you deny this fact? If so, then there is no use discussing this issue with you. Israel somehow defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. That was the beginning of the conflict that continues to this day. Arabs lost that war and have not gotten over it since. Quite frankly, I don't understand why the United Nations created the state of Israel. But they did and therefore, have a legitimate right to exist whether you like it or not. Israel was clearly not the aggressor from the beginning. If you believe otherwise then your facts and understanding of history are just wrong.

I don't agree with your assertion that Israel "stole" any land. The Arab nations lost this land in war. It was there fault for starting the war and they have paid the consequences for that mistake.

As I already told SuperLib, every Palestinian leader has accepted to make a state according to 1967 borders.

Again, you are incorrect. Yasser Arafat turned down President Clinton's effort to broker peace between the Israeli's and the Palestinians in the Oslo Accords which would have traded land for peace. Arafat turned it down because he knew that Islamo-facist terrorists would have assasinated him if he had accepted the deal (just like Anwar Sadat was assasinted for his peace treat with Israel).

Look back on history and note that although Israel is not completely blameless (ie. the pre-emptive war of 1967), they have nearly always responded to aggression from terrorism or from attacks from Arab nations. Even in the case of the pre-emptive 1967 war, Arab nations were massing for war and Israeli just responded by gaining the advantage of surprise.

Why can't Palestinians give up on terrorism and just negotiate for peace and their land claims? I ask you or anyone else here - do the Palestinians, Hamas, the PLO, and all Arab nations want Israel to remain a nation in the Middle East? Well? The answer is obvious, they do not and therefore there will be no peace because at least Hamas, Syria, and Iran will never give up aggression against Israel until Israel is wiped off the map. Instead of using violence to achieve this aim, Arabs and Palestinians in particular should at least give up violence and use the United Nations to get rid of Israel. That is the only legitimate way to do so since the UN created Israel in the first place.

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It is a fact that on the day that Israel became a nation, Arab nations attacked them. Do you deny this fact? If so, then there is no use discussing this issue with you. Israel somehow defeated Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. That was the beginning of the conflict that continues to this day.

You agreed with Right of Return and you say Arabs started the fight. If Arabs started the fight how come they have a right to return to their homes?

UN Partition Plan recommended that 56% of the land be set aside for a Jewish State, 42% for an Arab state and 2% for an internationalised Jerusalem and its surrounds, the world has not said a word about the land that was seized by Zionist terrorists before the State of Israel was proclaimed on 14 May 1948. Through a series of shocking massacres, ethnic cleansing, of the native inhabitants the territory assigned to the Jews suddenly became 77% resulting in more than 750,000 Palestinians being forcibly expelled and dispossessed of their homes, personal property and their homeland.

Clinton never offered UN resolution 242 to Arafat. Even Arafat couldn´t say yes to that despite how much US bribed him. All US has to do is keep their promise and come to terms with reality.

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itcher74: let me ask, are you saying that if Israel pulls back behind those borders, that's it?

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Wolfpack, well done. Terrorist apologists sometimes bring up that '67 Israeli preemptive strike.

Itcher74, if you had been Israel in '67, would you have waited to get annihilated? What the Arabs were imminently goin' to do was clear to Israel. And currently, where has appeasin' Palestinian supremacists ever gotten anyone? Gaza right now.

In general, there's a bunch of posters on threads like this who easily toss around the words 'genocide' or 'genocidal'. I suggest they look up the word and improve their English vocabulary so when they use the word in the future, they'll actually apply it correctly.

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Shams, let your nation stabilize the area so we can take a smoke break.

If you have a very long somke break the area will stabilize.

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