Israeli foreign minister: No Palestinian state by 2012

It wasn’t clear whether Lieberman was expressing his own opinion or government policy. A spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu refused to comment.

Meh, though I wonder if Mr Abbas still enjoys being the so-called Palestinian proxy?!

Why do U.S. conservatives give idiots like this a free pass?

His country already gets something like $4 billion a year of U.S. taxpayers' money, now U.S. conservatives bow down and let guys like this run their mouths.

How weak can you get?

huh? US conservatives? Which ones and were they mentioned in the article?

Why do U.S. conservatives give idiots like this a free pass? His country already gets something like $4 billion a year of U.S. taxpayers' money,...

Yeah, they use some of that money to make sure that those who support "Israel" stay in power, and those who try to do the right thing are eliminated.

Anyways, a Palestinian state does exist NOW, it is recognized by much of the world. We just have to get the occupiers out of Palestine.

You're right, there, SuperLib. There were no US conservatives mentioned in the article--unless you want to count Obama and Mitchell as conservatives with respect to their predisposition to favor Israel.

Nonetheless, Sushi's comment reflects a widely-held attitude against what can be seen as Israeli intransigence. The US continues to support Israel even though Israel neither takes the responsibility for the political and military power it exercises nor seems willing to relinquish that power on any terms other than its own, which include arrogation of land which did not belong to it prior to Israeli attacks in '67. Practically speaking Israel is between a rock and a hard place, but that doesn't mean the US must or should lend it indefinite support.

There won't be a Palestine State by 2013 or 2014 or 2015.... as long as Israel has anything to do with it.

'I think' SushiSake3 is talking about Lieberman. He's no conservative, but he is a republican in sheep's clothing. Also a real richard-head. < :-)

So Sez do you still require the right of return as part of a peace deal?

Practically speaking Israel is between a rock and a hard place

Certainly is, sezwho. Israel can never accept a sovereign "Palestinian" state on its borders that is governed by Islamic terrorists like Hamas, whose very charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Kind of a no brainer really. The best solution is the right of return...of the "Palestinians" back to Egypt and Jordan.

The best solution is the right of return...of the "Palestinians" back to Egypt and Jordan.

Back to Egypt and Jordan? WTF? Palestinians come from Palestine, most of which was stolen by zionists. The only feasible solution at this point would be a one-state solution (with a right of return for all Palestinians) where all people have equal rights.

No Sabi, those areas were owned by Jordan and Egypt prior to 1967. That's what my customer says, and he's Egyptian - you are not.

The reason there will be no palestinian state by 2012 is because the palestinians can't get their act together.

djuice - "The reason there will be no palestinian state by 2012 is because the palestinians can't get their act together"

That's definitely one of the more ridiculous comments of the day.

Palestine declared independence in 1988. Israel refused to accept it, so it never really came to be. They had a great opportunity but decided to pass. Now Arafat is dead and Hamas has control of Gaza. Israel has made its bed. Israel should sleep in it.

djuice said: The reason there will be no palestinian state by 2012 is because the palestinians can't get their act together.

This is also true. But the trouble is djuice, you don't want to admit the role of Israel in keeping Palestinians that way. Apparently, the Palestinians have to gain independence the old fashioned way: by overwhelming force. A far more peaceful solution was offered, and Israel decided to pass. Now we got this Minister bonehead declaring that Israel is still going to pass on the more peaceful solution. So what is left to do?

I say pull the plug on funds to Israel, and when they start talking right, and most of all ACTING RIGHT, let them play ball again.

MistWizard - "But the trouble is djuice, you don't want to admit the role of Israel in keeping Palestinians that way."

Preciisely.

"I say pull the plug on funds to Israel, and when they start talking right, and most of all ACTING RIGHT, let them play ball again."

I agree, but you'll be hard up to find any conservatives who have the spine to do this.

Yo sushi: "I agree, but you'll be hard up to find any conservatives who have the spine to do this."

I don't know if I qualify but let me ask, who's more conservative - Israel or Hamas? I understand your hatred for Jews who seem to tilt conservative, but I'll never understand your unwavering support for an ultra conservative group such as Hamas.

Skip, I have no position on Jews as such, especially not 'hatred' as you bizarrely claim. As usual, the problem here lies with governments, not people.

Skip, I know you're way smarter than to ignore the role force plays in this, not to mention the natural instinct of an oppressed group of people to fight back. I mean, what do you expect? Do you think the Palistinians should just roll over like an old dog and accept their situation? I'm not quite sure who you're trying to confuse here with your apparent lack of understanding of the situation.

sushi, sorry, but I'm seeing a very scary trend... this issue is hardly on any level of comparisons that are going on around the world: real genocides, real oppression...but I feel that ffor the mere fact that it is Jews against the Palestinians, this issue gets moved to the top. Not saying you are anti-semtic, but I do believe a lot of what you are into has become such but you are innocent. No, I do not think the Palestinians should just roll over, but neither should Israel. Look at one of the above posters for example that the whole issue of 67 borders is due to Israel attacking a much larger multitude force that had much more powerful mechanized elements. Here's my idea, give The Gaza back to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan and free access into Jerusalem. Whether there should such a country called Palestine with such borders should be completely in the hands of the Jordanians and Egyptians.

Announcing a "no-chance" attitude shows a real desire for compromise and it's hardly the words of a self-professed optimist. Really.

Taka

It's odd that people would focus on a "no chance" comment from an Israeli as a stumbling block for peace when the "no chance and we'll kill you" methods used by Hamas and Fatah against each other makes any Israeli statement on the issue meaningless. In all reality Israel could give the Palestinians everything they wanted today and tomorrow we'd see a bloodbath between the Palestinian factions.

The Palestinians should focus on creating some kind of unifying body first, a group that has the authority to make peace and the ability to actually follow through. Then that body should enter into negotiations with Israel for a peace plan.

MistWizard: Apparently, the Palestinians have to gain independence the old fashioned way: by overwhelming force.

What is it that you've seen over the past 60+ years that would make you think "overwhelming force" is the best path? I'll say it again: non-violent resistance is their only option.

There IS a "Palestinian state". It is called Israel. And there is ANOTHER Palestinian state. It is called Jordan.

What the Arab muslim activists want is, of course, the destruction of Israel.

If all they wanted is a THIRD Palestinian state bordering Israel and living in peace with Israel, they could have had that ages ago. But of course that is not the issue at all.

In all reality Israel could give the Palestinians everything they wanted today and tomorrow we'd see a bloodbath between the Palestinian factions.

And the excuses just keep getting better-- next time America should send an envoy more pro-Israeli than George Mitchell. Till then we'll never know who's more sensible and who's NOT

Right now the peace process is a big, costly farce...

What the Arab muslim activists want is, of course, the destruction of Israel.

Meh, nuke 'em then?! LOL

skipthesong said: I'll never understand your unwavering support for an ultra conservative group such as Hamas.

As per the Kagan thread, you don't understand the word "support". I am sure he hates Hamas as much as I do and wish most of them would just drop dead like I do. But there is wishing, and there is what is possible, and there is the price of making things happen. Hamas is a reality that came to be in a large part because of Israeli stalling on recognizing the Independence of Palistine while at the same time exercising tight military control over it. Taking out Hamas will get a lot of children and other civies killed and only strengthen Hamas. If you want to weaken Hamas, you have to marginalize them, and the only way to do that is to take the boot off Palestine, and give up claims to Jerusalem.

Whether there should such a country called Palestine with such borders should be completely in the hands of the Jordanians and Egyptians.

Any other bright fascist ideas? I know you will turn around and proclaim your love for democracy, but you seem to have some really fascist ideas about how a people should be governed. You know that?

Don't the Palestinians already have a state called Jordan?

Any other bright fascist ideas? I know you will turn around and proclaim your love for democracy, but you seem to have some really fascist ideas about how a people should be governed. You know that" Ok, from now on... every Cuban American neighborhood in the US now hereby proclaims independency...

Hamas is a reality that came to be in a large part because of Israeli stalling on recognizing the Independence of Palistine" Ok, I guess I'm dealing with one of those expensive college types again.. anyway has Hamas recognized Israel?

jruaustralia: And the excuses just keep getting better--

I don't see that as an excuse, I see it as a legitimate obstacle. What kind of peace plan can the Palestinians possibly create and then adhere to in their fractured state? They need to get on the same page first, then present a united front to Israel.

MistWizard: Hamas is a reality that came to be in a large part because of Israeli

And the "get Hamas out of jail free" card is played again...and again...and again...

MistWizard: If you want to weaken Hamas, you have to marginalize them, and the only way to do that is to take the boot off Palestine, and give up claims to Jerusalem.

Hamas was given Gaza and after slaughtering Fatah they turned it into the world's largest rocket launching pad. Violence, more violence, and more violence. That's all that Hamas knows. Giving into the demands of such people doesn't make them weaker.

And the "get Hamas out of jail free" card is played again...and again...and again..." Boom bam bomb. Hamas was given Gaza and after slaughtering Fatah they turned it into the world's largest rocket launching pad." Oh, you guys are going to drive me to drink.

Ok, from now on... every Cuban American neighborhood in the US now hereby proclaims independency...

If they want to. I am good with that.

anyway has Hamas recognized Israel?

It is no longer amusing the way you equate all of Palestine with Hamas when it suits you. Fatah recognized Israel. Israel in return recognized Fatah. Sound fair? With your warped view of things, it probably does. Fact is, Israel should have recognized Palestine, then we probably never would have heard of Hamas.

What are my methods? I think you might be refering some myths created by Churchill, no? I tell you what, the man was great during wartime but he sucked during peacetime. His ways all the time would just ensure constant warfare. Unlike him, I am flexible. There is a time to fight, and there is a time to make concessions. And you don't know if its time to fight unless you make concessions first. Since Israel won't make concessions (listen to the minister here) it is time to fight and has been for a long time. When Israel wants peace, they will make concessions. Trouble is some powerful men in Israel don't want peace and they keep sabotaging it.

Giving into the demands of such people doesn't make them weaker.

Give in to the their demands was not what I said. What I said was marginalize them. That process involves being fair for once.

They need to get on the same page first, then present a united front to Israel.

If they get on the same page, the united front will be against Israel. Palestine may well break down into civil war, but Israel needs to just recognize Palestine and let it come to be with no preconditions. Besides, Palestine was already united and look what happened. Israel sat on its hands.

And the "get Hamas out of jail free" card is played again...and again...and again...

What baloney! Hamas did not appear out of thin air for something to do! If Israel had recognized Palestine and let Fatah create a state, Hamas most likely could never have been. But Israel sought to keep Palestine down and Hamas is the result.

you equate all of Palestine with Hamas when it suits you." where did I equate them? Haven't heard a peep out of them I actually forgot.

Fatah recognized Israel. Israel in return recognized Fatah. Sound fair? With your warped view of things, it probably does. Fact is, Israel should have recognized Palestine, then we probably never would have heard of Hamas." Well, I don't know the right word to put here, but I think your wrong. Fatah has been called a sell out of sorts.

What are my methods? I think you might be refering some myths created by Churchill, no?" Have no idea, what did he say? I mean just letting things happen hoping for the best. Thats the wrong method. Unlike him, I am flexible." I think I'm flexible too... I just said give that land back to who it was lost, not stolen, from - Jordan and Egypt. There is a time to fight, and there is a time to make concessions. And you don't know if its time to fight unless you make concessions first." You have convinced me there is now such a thing as being over educated. (maybe a compliment) Since Israel won't make concessions (listen to the minister here) it is time to fight and has been for a long time." Ok, why just this minister here? Why don't we go back to when the state was created? Jews already there proclaimed independence and was recognized by most of the world that is wishing for its destruction. You've never been there have you?

When Israel wants peace, they will make concessions. Trouble is some powerful men in Israel don't want peace and they keep sabotaging it." Well, who is the one to stick their hand out first? And, why would you want peace with people who hate you? Palestine may well break down into civil war, but Israel needs to just recognize Palestine and let it come to be with no preconditions." right, and then every other country in that area will just turn that place into nothing. That's like saying letting two gangs take over a neighborhood sacrificing the residents. Please don't become Chief of Police If Israel had recognized Palestine and let Fatah create a state, Hamas most likely could never have been." Weren't they dealing with that Yassir dude who died recently? He didn't seem to be too tolerant

I don't see that as an excuse, I see it as a legitimate obstacle. What kind of peace plan can the Palestinians possibly create and then adhere to in their fractured state? They need to get on the same page first, then present a united front to Israel.

I see that as an excuse. It's an excuse to pointblank call the Palestinians whatever you want to call it... But fair enough. Israelis can rebuff anything, for all I care =/

But for people on JT hopeful for peace, let me point out that only a decade ago our region witnessed the independence of the East Timorese people. The excuses had been similar, the violence too and the outright manipulations of big powers (Australia initially included) to prevent the independent movement gaining grounds....

That was only ten years ago...

What does Israel's opinion have to do with anything? I'm saying Palestine is too fragmented to produce a peace deal, enforce it, then actually govern over the entire country. Do you personally agree or disagree with that?

Ok, from now on... every Cuban American neighborhood in the US now hereby proclaims independency...

Only if you bring the Ironbeer.

Since Israel won't make concessions (listen to the minister here) it is time to fight and has been for a long time.

I thinks that's kind of the point. As long as Israel looks like a threat to Palestine the Palestinians keep Hamas in power and as long as Hamas is in power the US keeps sending Israel the big bucks to keep them suppressed and growl at any country the US hasn't already invaded. Works out rather nicely...you know...except for all the dead people and everything.

What does Israel's opinion have to do with anything?

I'm guessing you didn't even read the article-- just look at the headline and now tell me whether your question, on Israel's clout over a Palestinian state, doesn't have a hint of folly =/

I'm saying Palestine is too fragmented to produce a peace deal, enforce it, then actually govern over the entire country.

I'm sure the Indonesians argued the same thing on E. Timor...

But, SuperLib that's a question more relevant for the Palestinian people-- not me and, in my opinion, not yours to decide.

To paraphrase a Philippino pre-Independence politician, I believe the Pals would much prefer a state-run like hell by the Palestinian people... than a purgatorium imposed by other countries!

jraustralia: I'm guessing you didn't even read the article-- just look at the headline and now tell me whether your question, on Israel's clout over a Palestinian state, doesn't have a hint of folly

The "hint of folly" I see is a Palestine in the middle of a civil war and people throwing their arms up in the air because an Israel said there will be no state by 2012. Imagine he said the exact opposite. Would that change the reality in Palestine? How on earth could anyone promise a Palestine state by a certain date given the current Palestinian leadership and lack thereof in certain parts of Palestine?

The Palestinians need to get on the same page and present a unified front. That's what they should be focusing on now. They'll benefit from it and so will the peace process. Stop ignoring the 500 lb. elephant in the room.

How on earth could anyone promise a Palestine state by a certain date given the current Palestinian leadership and lack thereof in certain parts of Palestine?

Look, SuperLib, we can argue back and forth over frivolities. I'm sure you're referring to the political split bet. the Hamas faction and the Fatah (drawing on the E. Timorese parallel you can call it Church v FALINTIL split-- s___t-stirred by the Indonesians) but not unless you stop treating their proxies as dispensable partners then the negotiating table is clearly a sham!

Again, we can argue back and forth over this... which I have no intention of doing =/

SuperLib said: Imagine he said the exact opposite. Would that change the reality in Palestine?

No, but at least it would signal an intention to stop screwing around in Palestinian internal affairs. This is not quite an opposite action equals an opposite reaction sort of deal. Take the boot off the Palestinian neck and they might go any which way. Who knows if the Palestinian state will become viable? A bunch of things could happen. But if the boot remains where it is nothing will change, all but guaranteed.

The Palestinians have a right to self-determination, just like everybody else.

Take the boot off the Palestinian neck

You should create a .txt file and just open, copy, and paste this into any thread where anyone actually criticizes Hamas or Palestinians in general. Israel's "boot" didn't cause Hamas and Fatah to murder each other when Israel left Gaza. You don't have to defend Hamas to defend the average, non-violent Palestinian.

Israel's "boot" didn't cause Hamas and Fatah to murder each other when Israel left Gaza.

It was part of the reason. There are many reasons why it happened, and that is part of it, a big part of it. You treat people like animals long enough, they will become animals. There is no magic spell to make them gentlemen. Its how they are raised that counts the most, and you must be off your meds to think the Israeli boot had nothing to do with it.

You don't have to defend Hamas to defend the average, non-violent Palestinian.

Why do always interpret an explanation of processes and events as a defense of Hamas? Is it a debate tactic? Cause I am getting pretty sick of it.

Until you're ready to accept what Hamas and the militants really are, then you're going to be hopelessly lost. You don't want to deal with the fact that you support terrorists, so in your mind you turn them into something else.

Super, I have said numerous times both Hamas and the Israeli government are terrorists. Try again.

As for the other militants, I can't name them or detail them, but they seem to be terrorists as well. Put them all together and the greater terrorist is still the Israeli government. If you don't want to accept it, that's one thing. But could you make a note of my stance please? "Mist thinks both terrorists." Got it? I shortened to four words. Could you hang on to them?

"Mist thinks both terrorists." Got it?

Yeah. You'll admit that Hamas are terrorists but only if you can include Israel in the statement to deflect your criticism away from Hamas. One step forward, one step back.

I get it. It's what a terrorist supporter would say to trick himself into thinking he doesn't support terrorists.

Super, your words are what an annoying person says to convince himself he is not just trying to be annoying. It simply makes no sense to point out the terrorism of Hamas when both sides are terrorists and the state terrorism of Israel killing more. Maybe to you, suicide attacks, mortars, and ineffective rockets are worse than never ending control of the airspace and seas of a people, shutting down their fishing industry, blockade food and medicine (even if sporatically) daily military flyovers, bombing civilians from the air and muttering collateral damage, and the use of white phosphorus in urban areas. And let us not forget that Israel still kills more innocents even if you thought that equal terrorism.

I have provided evidence galore, and you ignore it all and accuse me having a motive? If you are not trying to be annoying, then what is up with this constant drone about Hamas while ignoring Israel's many wrongs, or (gulp) mitigating them?

It simply makes no sense to point out the terrorism of Hamas

Game. Set. Match.

Game. Set. Match.

Thank you. Better luck next time, Super.

No, SuperLib, I don't require the right of return as a part of any peace deal. But I think it is more to the point what the parties in conflict require. In my opinion it's just foolish to think that Israel can escape the consequences associated with reneging on obligations attendant to its expulsion of residents and its subsequent arrogation of even more land. I just don't think that's the way the world works.

SezWho: In my opinion it's just foolish to think that Israel can escape the consequences associated with reneging on obligations

So the right of return is a requirement.

Game. Set. Match.

So the right of return is a requirement.

Not strictly. But to make amends about, or so I think it is with the Palestinians.

As far as I am concerned, its now ancient history. But if your grandfather's land was stolen and some family who stole it living there, while you yourself lived in a small apartment in a ghetto, I doubt you would let it go and say "Hey, let's just be friends!". But you know, if you would, you could say so.

As far as I am concerned, its now ancient history. But

There is no "but." It is ancient history.

Don't the Palestinians already have a state known as Jordan?

There is no "but." It is ancient history.

The only thing ancient is that God allegedly told one small group of people that this land belonged to them. Now that is certainly ancient, but I wouldn't call it history.

Don't the Palestinians already have a state known as Jordan?

No, Jordan belongs to the Jordanians. The Palestinians' state was and still is called Palestine. Some have been trying very hard to wipe it off the map but its still there, it just happens to be occupied by some people who do not belong there.

SuperLib said: There is no "but." It is ancient history.

Come on Super, I just want to see you write for us clearly that in their position you would say the same and not even try to use it to negotiate.

Look, I understand what you're saying. They have anger. But that's not going to be a good negotiating tool, and it's not going to get them what they want. I said I supported the 1967 borders except for Jerusalem even tho Israel has, in my opinion, every right to keep all of it. They were invaded from all sides. Giving the land back is like the Arabs saying, "Sorry, we tried to wipe you out, but we failed, so just give us the land back and we'll call it even." I don't really care that Israel has settlements, investments, whatever. In order to make peace they need to give it back, even if it sucks for them. It works both ways.

In my opinion, I believe the only way to resolve the situation between Israel and Palestine is to enforce International Laws and the UN Resolutions that have been violated over the years. I personally don't believe Israel wants a two state solution as long as it is able to expand homes on land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians.

I also believe the US Government speaks with forked tongue by saying things in public, contrary to what is said directly to the Israeli government. The US could apply pressure by denying aid to Israel, and this could be done because any country in possession of Nuclear weapons and not a member of the NPT is a violation of US law unless waived by the President.

SuperLib said: Look, I understand what you're saying. They have anger. But that's not going to be a good negotiating tool,

Denied their family plots of ground, and you dismiss this as anger?

I said I supported the 1967 borders except for Jerusalem even tho Israel has, in my opinion, every right to keep all of it.

Only the right of conquest and might makes right. I grudgingly accept them but I think you hold them above all. Sad.

They were invaded from all sides. Giving the land back is like the Arabs saying, "Sorry, we tried to wipe you out, but we failed, so just give us the land back and we'll call it even."

Lemmee get this straight: If Native Americans took over the U.S., and Mexico and Canada attacked, all making you escape to Puerto Rico with you family for safety, when it all quieted down you would just accept the loss of your house and land? You are mixing up the right of return of individual Palestinians with the actions of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. I find that so bizarre I question whether you even know what the right of return is. Even now Israelis are trying to get the right of return for property stolen by the Nazis. I wish them both luck, but its unlikely to help.

Moral and ethical bankruptcy

Americans are finding a grotesque echo in the moral – ethical bankruptcy and worse of a substantial sector of American society.

The “moral depravity” of “the Arabs” who kill innocent civilians. It is more than moral depravity. It is a culture that teaches, educates and breeds hate toward other societies that are not like them as they say “infidels”.

There is no way this situation should be handled with kid gloves – when a poison strikes your body, you remove it and destroy it completely, leaving no trace of such poison.

History has shown that these types of atrocities and acts of barbarism have increased in the past half a century and getting worse by the day.

With today’s advancement in technology and telecommunications, the world has shrunk, events on the other side of the world affect everybody (like the Japanese Nuclear reactor fallout etc.) it affects our health our economy, brings fear and uncertainty to our lives.

The financial crisis we are facing today is the price we pay for years of neglect and government abuse of power.

Is today’s society heading toward annihilation, you be the judge?

YJ Draiman

The Qur'an 17:104 - states the land belongs to the Jewish people

Every time there is a terrorist act, Israel should vacate an Arab village and raze it.

In most lives, I suppose there comes a time when one has to make a supreme effort that calls for every morsel of more and more endeavor and more than not that effort has to be sustained.