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Israeli forces bisect Gaza, surround biggest city

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Libertas, actually read the piece in this thread.

What spokespeople for what side sounds rational and what one sounds full of bluster and insanity?

Who wants international observers in and who won't even answer the question?

And, Libertas, you don't seem quite there today with your "666" bidness. How do you expect folks to take you seriously when you get downright silly?

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I agree with Mr. George Bush. If only those naughty Hamas rocketeers would just stop launching their rockets into Israel which, by the way, have killed over three people, then Israel would cease their bombardment of Gaza, which has so far killed over 400 people and destroyed the infrastructure, leading to a humanitarian disaster.

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ah buttamimi, nice attempt at distorting what is really going on. Nevermind the fact that Hamas has launched over 6000 rockets and mortars into Israel since taking over in 2006.

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Shakes head, it is not President Bushes flaunt. Every time there is a problem his name gets brought up. The worlds problems are much larger than a single person! If he is behind all of this he would be the most important person in written history! About the ratio, having ones country under fire takes a toll. A person or country can not take fire without doing something. Israel wants the incoming the mortar and missile fire stopped from the West Bank. Hamas is not willing to listen to reason. If Israel opened its border with them there would be a new group of suicide bombings. It has happened before and will happen again and again. I tire of this poor Hamas stories. They have started this new conflict and the Israeli military is trying to stop it. Perhaps International troops in the West Bank would keep the peace.

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LIBERTAS-Lets explain this in a way you can understand...if kids came to your house every day and threw rocks through the windows, wouldn't you want the police to go to their house and make them stop? That's what Israel is doing with Hamas.

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if kids came to your house every day and threw rocks through the windows, wouldn't you want the police to go to their house and make them stop?

I think a better analogy would be if your crazy neighbor were to randomly fire a gun into your house every day for years and then having to listen to people on the other side of town say, "Well, it's not that big of a gun and he's only hit people once or twice so you're the one who's wrong for sending the SWAT team out to get him. If you'd just give him your house, this really wouldn't be a problem."

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I agree with Sensei258. 'If kids came to your house every day and threw rocks through the windows, wouldn't you want the police to go to their house and make them stop?' Exactly! Latest: The occupation forces entered Gaza in several places at approximately 9 PM, while continuing their shelling and targeting of Palestinians from air and sea, killing and wounding still more Palestinians people while their ground forces prevent ambulances and medical personnel from reaching the victims. All Israeli (and US-made) weapons are being used in this invasion, including massive bombs. The occupation forces have bombed the small remaining oil supply used for power in Gaza, cutting 85% of electricity in Gaza and creating massive clouds of thick, toxic smoke.

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Buttamimi, if your hysteria were true, Gaza would've been flattened by now and everyone within dead as doorknobs.

Of the two, only Israel tries to discriminate in it's use of military strategy.

Where does Hamas get its unendin' source of weapons and rockets? The Tooth Fairy?

Hamas should knock it off.

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Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm

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It is a wanton act of collective punishment that is depriving the Palestinians of food, electricity, water, money, access to the outside world ... and sleep. Israel has been sending jets flying over Gaza at night triggering sonic booms, traumatizing children. “I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza,” declared Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, words suitable for Israel’s tombstone.

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Buttamimi, FromEurope's link indicates food is gettin' through and people and Palestinians aren't starvin'.

Elsewhere, before the land assault, I've seen Palestinians receivin' Israeli medical care. They, too, wish Hamas would go away. They didn't want to be identified because they said "Hamas will kill us".

Hamas should knock it off.

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fromEurope, i did an extensive search of BBC for any information regarding the amount and frequency of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel since Hamas took over Gaza in 2006. can you help show me how diligent BBC is reporting the both sides of the issue?

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Obama to the rescue:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article5429620.ece

"No one really thinks that Mr Obama is about to “get tough” with the Israelis... In remarks that directly identified himself with the cause of the current fighting in Gaza, he expressed strong personal solidarity with Israeli citizens under attack from Hamas rockets. In the US Senate he has a solidly consistent record of supporting Israel...Rahm Emanuel, Mr Obama's chief of staff, is as forceful and enthusiastic a proponent of the Israeli cause as there is in Washington."

Obama... Is this gent an American conservative or what?

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"One of the main claims in Gaza at the moment is the serious situation for the population. Having reported from Gaza many times over the years, I know how crowded parts of it are and how dependent the people are on food aid from the UN. This means they have no other source of supply but equally, if the system is working, they should be getting enough to get by on. The problem is that foreign correspondents cannot get in to establish the exact situation for themselves. "

This doesn't mean that Palestinians are actually getting the food.

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Obama's muted response has already drawn anger from Khaled Meshaal, leader of the Hamas. Here's his quote;

"You commented on Mumbai but you say nothing about the crime of the enemy (Israel). This policy of double standards should stop."

Not looking good. Obama chief of staff and secretary of state are all on record supporting Israel. It all boils down to constituents.

Expect no drastic change in US policy.

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They were as a couple of hours ago.

Maybe Hamas should knock it off.

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I think the US ME policy won't change alot under Obama. He had the support of Jewish lobby to get elected. He can't do anything against Israel. As Sharon said "America belongs to us(Israel)"

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FromEurope, that's sounds like a sound-byte for the cameras.

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Folks left of center must be wonderin' what happened to all this 'hope' and 'change'. Did someone con you?

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people knew Israel was going in for about a week. Nothing new here.

Being a terrorist state is difficult. -but it's the only way you can plead for the handouts to buy more rockets and bombs.

Expect Hamas to travel to Japan with their tin cups soon. =More money is needed to support this war.

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Take it as you want. That's what I think.

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U.S. military aid to Israel has a dramatic effect on Israel's policies towards the Palestinians. It has increasingly been used not to pay for defense but to finance the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. It keeps Israel from facing the difficult but necessary challenges of building a more democratic society, and encourages solving deep-rooted problems by military rather than peaceful and more effective means.

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shiuu-well said, I agree that's a much better analogy, I was trying to keep it simple for people who have trouble understanding the "why" of the Gaza campaign.

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Buttamimi, as friendo Marx once said, "Each accordin' to his need."

Or was that friendo Lenin?

How much do you feel the US should give your country, Buttamimi? Will you agree to certain conditions to get it?

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The country of Hamas is in big trouble now. The IDF lads don't mess about. They'll smash em! The terrormakers will get with the showgramme.

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It seems, USARonin, that 'you can't handle the truth.'

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I really feel something very impossible between Israel and Hamas, Palestine. It seems that nobody can make peace between them. I really wonder if they want peace and who, which country can make peace there. I don't think US can do it as long as US supports Israel.

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United Nations (PTI) : In an unusually sharp criticism of Israel, the UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY PRESIDENT has described its deadly air strikes on Gaza Strip as commission of "wanton aggression by a very powerful state" and said the world body needs to take a firm action if it does not want to be "rightly accused of complicity by omission."

"I call on all Member States, as well as officials and every relevant organ of the United Nations system, to move expeditiously not only to condemn Israel's serious violations, but to develop new approaches to providing real protection for the Palestinian people," Miguel d'Escoto said.

The Israeli air strikes which killed nearly 230 people, he said, represent "severe and massive violations of international humanitarian law as defined in the Geneva Conventions, both in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war."

The violations, the UNGA President said, include collective punishment of the entire 1.5 million people for action of a few militants, targeting civilians and disproportionate military response.

Terming the air strikes as the commission of "wanton aggression by a very powerful state", he said they were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.

The air strikes, d'Escoto said, have not only destroyed every police and security office of the Gaza Strip's "elected government," but have killed and injured hundreds of civilians.

"At least one strike reportedly hit groups of students attempting to find transportation home from the university," he said and reminded all member states that the UN continues to be bound to an independent obligation to protect any civilian population facing massive violations of international humanitarian law regardless of what country may be responsible for those violations.

D'Escoto said time has come for the world body to take firm action if it does not want to be "rightly accused of complicity by omission."

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USARonin: If you can't handle the facts, get off the board. Who cares if buttamami didn't create his own history like you guys enjoy doing, he still beat you down flat with facts. If anyone can google and find out facts, go ahead and find something that proves him wrong! Oh wait, you can't!

It's plagiarism in an expository essay, my friend, or work that you claim to be your own. If I tell my friend what I read in the morning newspaper, without mentioning that I read it in the news, I'm not 'stealing' the information unless I say I went out and researched the thing by myself and wrote the article.

Get with it. You don't like that Israeli is the perpetrator of much of the terrorism going on in the ME, and in all actuality STARTED the whole Arab-Israeli relationship as it exists today. Here they are again conquering nations using money given to them in excess.

It's sick, and what's sick is the unconditional support provided by you guys and your government, no questions asked. I could give you proof of that, but buttamami is doing a fine job of wiping the floor with you guys, and it's clear you can't handle it. You give unconditional support because you simply don't want to hear about what it's REALLY for.

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Butamimi,

United Nations (PTI) : In an unusually sharp criticism of Israel, the UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY...

It's pretty much understood that the UN is a worthless institution and basically a joke. You're gonna have to do better than that. Perhaps there's some other source you can cut and paste.

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I live in Canada. If a few Americans lobbed a bunch of homemade rockets into Canada I would be pissed no matter how far it lands in my back yard!!! My pals and I would be slinging hockey sticks and pucks ready to invade Buffalo!!!

Now, tell me why the Israelis have to watch themselves murdered by suicide bombers and tin rockets? Hamas is the weird smelly kid in primary school that calls you names, gets beat up and then he's back calling you names again only to get beat up again!!

Don't you get it? Hamas started all this!!!! They have the North Korea Syndrome, where they start talks and then cuts out so the international community can give them $$$$ to restart talks.

Hide behind your women and children and beat your chests and cry foul! Cowards and beggars to the dying end!

You want action? How 'bout some Israelis suicide bombers? That should have them shitting their already soiled pants!

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Helter_Skelter: "It's pretty much understood that the UN is a worthless institution and basically a joke."

And yet your ilk were on here a mere few days ago asking desperately why we don't 'recognize the UN decided borders for Israel' in a sad attempt to ask if we are against their right to live. Well, that quickly went down the toilet when it was proven that Israel itself went against UN drawn borders.

So, once again we have the "Prove it!" crowd simply complaining about the proof. Didn't work well for you guys then, doesn't now. Oh, and if you guys are going to get on about 'cutting and pasting' you better just ask half your 4 or 5 supporters to drop off the board now, in particular sarge. At least buttamami used the info he got to make an argument, rather than posters like you guys who often simply say, "I know you are but what am I" as your defense.

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Jackseoul, on North Korea... You easily understand what my government doesn't.

As you say, same with Hamas.

I won't rocket Canada, but may just give you Buffalo.

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These are troubling developments. 8000 Qassam rockets fired into Israel is an enormous number, one that no country would tolerate, but none of us experts predicted Hamas and Iran's actions would radicalize Israel to this degree. Events in the real world have again defied my analysis and left me embarrassed. Conventional wisdom on the conflict is being re-written as we speak.

Hamas leadership has literally FORCED Israel to invade Gaza.

Opinions among my colleagues down at the Dearborn Kabob House are pretty sharply divided, but the general consensus is that Iran and Israel's Arab neighbors don't really care what happens to the Palestinians, just so long as aid money from the United States continues to flow unconditionally, sparing Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians and large numbers of Muslims the indignity of having to move into the modern world.

I do have one prediction I am confident in making - a lot of Palestinians, even the ones who didn't vote for Hamas, will be giving their lives so that Hamas suicide bombers may live.

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jackseoul: "Now, tell me why the Israelis have to watch themselves murdered by suicide bombers and tin rockets?"

If one of the Yanks in your analogy simply tossed a beer bottle across the border and it broke on a dirt road, not hurting anyone, would you still run in and slaughter a village of a couple hundred?

Israel started the situation through various wars after breaking the borders agreed upon by the UN. They terrorized and slaughtered all sorts of Arab villages. Again in 1967 they started a war and occupied even MORE of the land outside the agreed upon borders. The result is that relations with its Arab neigbours soured, and since much of the land stolen and people slaughtered were Palestinian, they began fighting back in the form of rockets/suicide bombings.

My point is, before going around and pointing all blame squarely on Hamas, remember that much of what people are saying here against the Palestinians in general applies DIRECTLY to Israel. bush and the White House in particular could use a good history lesson.

Helter: "It's pretty much understood that the UN is a worthless institution and basically a joke."

Yeah, except that a few days ago you guys were on here demanding that we recognize the UN's drawn out borders of Israel in an attempt to lamely argue Israel's right to exist (until you realized the original UN borders were not the ones Israel later stole through slaughtering its neighbours!). It's only useless when it doesn't fit your argument.

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Fortunately, most of us know it's not simply an issue of Muslim and Jewish religions, and this is very much also a border dispute raging back since Israel first broke UN agreements and began slaughtering its neighbours.

Moderator: Readers, no more history lessons please. Focus your comments on what is currently happening.

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ProfJuanColePhd

Iran and Israel's Arab neighbors don't really care what happens to the Palestinians

Duh. It took a Ph.D. to figure that out? The Muslim Arab world needs the "Palestinians" to suffer in order to promote their propaganda war against Israel. And it works because they know gullible first-world leftists eat this stuff up. That's why they never provide assistance or refuge to their "Palestinian" brothers. They're nothing more than propaganda tools for the Muslim Arab world.

.

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Hamas is NOT a religious group. Even good muslims condemn suicide and killing. There is no religion in "Palestine" as long as Palestinians support Hamas. Hamas wants money, power and sympathy. They'll make a wall of civilians to protect their themselves to make their means...

Hamas DID start this present conflict by firing rockets at Israel after the end of the last ceasefire. Now Hezbollah may try their bullshit in the north. If Isreal defends itself against Hezbollah then smithinjapan and buttamimi will also blame Isreal of course.

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Well, they have to do it before Bush leaves office. In spite of what Obama may have said while he was there, there is no guarantee that he would support this action, which they cannot do without the implicit agreement of the US. That implicit agreement may not be forthcoming with Obama. I think that the only outcome of this operation will be producing the next generation of terrorists.

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jackseoul: Let me ask you this; who is it of the Israelis, soldiers aside, that have to live with the most fear? The answer is the settlers. The settlers of where? the areas stolen by Israel for occupation by Israelis. And how many of them killed since 2001? Some 19 or so, and four of those being after Israel began this campaign. Well, it was only them who needed to be afraid until recently, when Palestinian rockets proved they can go even farther into Israel then before, which made the whole thing all the more shocking.

No kidding the Hamas isn't a religion! But tell that to Helter_Skelter who thinks this is all about Muslims wanting jihad. He'll blame Hamas for everything and point out how even the surrounding Arab nations won't support Hamas, then turn around and say the war now going on is the result of Islam. Haha.

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I wish some of these pro-Israeli people would give up their back yards for some Jewish settlers. Then there might not be a conflict over there. If you want something done right you have to do it yourself. No sense leaving it to others.

Please give your back yard to a Jewish settler today. Just don't be surprised if they want the front yard too!

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this is very much also a border dispute

So you naively believe. It's irrelevent where Israel places its borders. If Israel were to go back to its pre-1967 borders, they'd still be lobbing Qassam rockets into Israel. If Israel were to eliminate its borders altogether, they'd still be using suicide bombers to murder the Jews. It's not even about this tiny strip of land, which the Muslim Arabs couldn't have cared less about until the Jews actually turned it into something.

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poor Hamas. big bad Israel not letting the Palestinian terrorists shoot their rockets and launch their mortars at Israeli civilians. Boo hoo.

The way the world is and the way the world ought to be are two entirely different matters.

When your enemy threatens to annihilate you, you take the threat serious. When you are under attack you have only one option; you tell the PC crowd to go to hell and do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Israel absorbed 6000 rocket and mortar attacks over the last two years before it had enough. How much more restraint can anyone expect from Israel. Israel warned Hamas to stop or face severe consequences. Hamas continued and Israel is doing what it needs to to protect its citizens.

If Hamas cared more about the welfare of its citizens and less about the destruction of Israel, there would be no need for Israel to take this sort of military action.

Palestinians future will never improve until their leaders turn their backs on violence and recognize Israels right to exist.

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smithinjapan, who said Hamas was a religion? Let's not get so condescending when you can't even read properly! I said Hamas is NOT a religious GROUP!!!!!

What about the history... you got half of it right. Isreal won the 6 day war! They made a quick job of it too. Did you hear how savage the Palestinians were as well? Cutting penises of Jewish soldiers and shoving them in their mouths? They took pictures to show to their families. How thoughtful and heart warming??? What the hell do you know. If being condescending and misinformation is your deal, I don't buy any of it!

HelterSkelter is right! Hamas is to blame for everything. The other Arab neighbours don't care because this is not about religion. I'd be ashamed as heck if my Christian brothers acted like terrorists. Little children with temper tantrums 'cause they can't get what they want. Arabs in the region didn't even care for the land because it was a desert... until the Israelis made an oasis of it (the best desalination plants in the world at that time).

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If Israel were to go back to its pre-1967 borders, they'd still be lobbing Qassam rockets into Israel.

Who is they? Other Palestinian groups might still attack Israel, but here is what a Hamas leader said:

On 8 February 2006, Hamas head Khaled Mashal speaking in Cairo had clarified that "Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong", stating that Hamas would "possibly" agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from the lands conquered in 1967.

You think Israel is actually going to do that though? Or even discuss it seriously?

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Hamas would "possibly" agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from the lands conquered in 1967????!

What the hell is that? A trick? Who the heck is that stupid? Only Hamas!

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I wish some of these pro-Israeli people would give up their back yards for some Jewish settlers. Then there might not be a conflict over there. If you want something done right you have to do it yourself. No sense leaving it to others.

Please give your back yard to a Jewish settler today. Just don't be surprised if they want the front yard too!

My quote highlight isn't working but in response to your post.

I wish some people would actually read the article.

Israeli leaders said the operation, known as Cast Lead, was meant to quell militant rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel. They said it would not end quickly but that the objective was not to reoccupy Gaza or topple Hamas.

Anybody have a problem with that?

Second of all now that those 'cowardly' airstrikes are over we switching to

Israeli artillery joined the battle for the first time earlier on Saturday. Artillery fire is less accurate than attacks from the air using precision-guided munitions, raising the possibility of a higher number of civilian casualties.

I hope progressives are happy that air campaign wasn't able to achieve the objective of stopping the rocket and mortar attacks in the 'cowardly' manner so often mentioned. I hope not to hear any complaints about civilian casualities now that the fight is going Mano to Mano from the usuals.

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Even though Isreal started this war in November 2008 when they twice attacked Palestineans in cross border attacks before the cease fire was over. Then Hamas retaliated. Then Isreal attacked.

But that really doesn't matter.

The wars between Isreal and Palestine has been going on for what 40/50 years? Does anybody here even think that if Hamas quit firing rockets that Isreal would quit. Hell no.

This is the same thing that Isreal did to Lebanon. They took a small incident and turned it into war. Isreal has done the same thing here.

This was a timed event. Just before george bush leaves and before Barack Obama comes into office. I can see that the real operations are over about January 19th.

Isreal will now start the real killing. Remember the use of cluster bombs. Give'm time. < :-)

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Someone mention the Geneva Convention? Kidnapped Israeli soldiers... Hamas is threatening to do this again. I'm sure that's not part of the Geneva "Commandments."

A text message sent by Hamas’ military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, said “the Zionists started approaching the trap which our fighters prepared for them.” Hamas said it also broadcast a Hebrew message on Israeli military radio frequencies promising to kill and kidnap the Israeli soldiers.

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poor Hamas. big bad Israel not letting the Palestinian terrorists shoot their rockets and launch their mortars at Israeli civilians. Boo hoo.

Poor Israel. big bad Hamas is not letting Israeli settlers steal Palistinian land without blacking their eyes. Boo Hoo.

Israel absorbed 6000 rocket and mortar attacks over the last two years before it had enough. How much more restraint can anyone expect from Israel.

This is like declaring a bank robber has every right to shoot the bank manager because the bank manager shot first. How much more restraint can we expect from the bank robber? Did you just go "Huh?". Well if you did, it would show your intelligence. If you did not, you are ignorant and biased.

The fact is that the situation is TERRIBLY hard to resolve. Neither side is clearly right nor clearly wrong. Everyone, has a right to defend his life, even a bank robber. But we can hardly fault the bank manager for taking a shot at an armed bank robber, his arms full of loot. We might prefer the manager just let the loot go, but my guess is people like Helter would solidly back up the manager in this case.

Anybody with any sense knows it is not easy to resolve at all. There is no one easy option for anybody. No single rule or right to sort this mess out. We do not want to declare that might makes right, but then, what is done is done and the dead cannot be brought back to life and land is not equal to human life. But if we go off of that there is no trust because if a people get away with murder once they will surely do it again, and both parties have gotten away with a lot of murder. BOTH.

I rack this around in my brain and I what I keep getting is: Israel can keep what it got in 48, but must return what it took in 67. This way Israel both keeps and returns. We declare that the end of this chapter and all outside parties consider the day that happens as a new era and all is equal from that point. No more digging in the past. We need a point to start afresh.

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Then do a little Googling about Isreal killing Palestineans during November 2008. Not too hard to do. < :-)

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/world/middleeast/17mideast.html?_r=1

Easy to find if you want to find it.

But if you only want to see the Isreali side, damn these are all lies.

There's the evidence. < :-)

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What the hell is that? A trick? Who the heck is that stupid? Only Hamas!

Would it kill anyone to talk about it? Cripes! No leader makes a deal like that clearly except at the negotiating table. A hint like that is all you get otherwise. One has to follow it up before declaring it a ruse. Its not like Israel is all rose pedals and good faith either. Uggggggh!

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Israel just protecting itself from terrorists did not start the war. Just because a civilian throws a stone but not a grenade does not make him a non-combatants in my book. Next time the same man WILL throw a grenade!

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Likeitis, it's great to have faith in others, but when you put quotation marks around the word "possibly" it seems quite suspicious. The word in itself is tentative and then the quotation mark... I can see Joey Trebiani misusing the finger quotation mark in one episode of FRIENDS.

Hamas would "possibly" agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from the lands conquered in 1967????!

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Poor Israel. big bad Hamas is not letting Israeli settlers steal Palistinian land without blacking their eyes. Boo Hoo.

They put settlements back in Gaza after they forced their settlers out after thirty years?????? Gave the land back to the Palistinians not to mention 3000 greenhouses that was the basis of the economy there and of course were promptly looted after they left. They even had to use the IDF to it this as I recall, didn't know they put em back, Musta missed that part somewhere.

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jackseoul: Simply hilarious!

"HelterSkelter is right! Hamas is to blame for everything."

Let's see what Helter_Skelter says!

(Helter) "If Israel were to eliminate its borders altogether, they'd still be using suicide bombers to murder the Jews. It's not even about this tiny strip of land... As I said, Muslim Arabs were murdering Jews before Israel even existed. And this same conflict against the Infidel is being played out by Islam all over the world."

Now back to your comments, Jackseoul: "The other Arab neighbours don't care because this is not about religion."

Now hang on a sec here.... you say Helter_Skelter is right, but Helter Skelter says this is all about religion, and not about any 'little strip of land', etc. Then you say it's not at all about religion. So, evidently, I was bang on in my comments. If you take my being correct as being condescending, then you should never get involved in a debate for fear of being condescended every which way from Seoul back to Ontario, my friend.

"Just because a civilian throws a stone but not a grenade does not make him a non-combatants in my book."

Since you feel the need to be nit-picky with typos, I will to; it's non-combatant, non-plural, when you refer to 'a civilian'.

"Next time the same man WILL throw a grenade!"

Pure subjecture, and groundless. How can the man next time throw a grenade if you've already killed him for throwing a stone? Maybe the man was next time going to throw a bouquet of flowers. So, by your logic, if some Jews come over and steal your back yard, and you throw a stone at them for doing so, they can go in your house and kill you and say they were preventing you from killing them first?

Helter: It's you who are naive for believing that this is simply based on religion. Religion has exaggerated things, to be sure, but you yourself have come on here and dissed Hamas countless times, and Hamas is a political party. What's more is you also talk about Egypt and other Arab nations in defense of Israel and then go on to bash all of Islam saying it is to blame. The hypocrisy within your own comments is simply hilarious, my friend.

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jackseoul: "Did you hear how savage the Palestinians were as well? Cutting penises of Jewish soldiers and shoving them in their mouths? They took pictures to show to their families. How thoughtful and heart warming???"

Where in the world did I ever say the Palestinians were a merciful lot, particularly during war?? Go ahead and show me THAT. I have said, countless times, exactly what likeitis seems much more eloquently able to express; the answer is up to BOTH nations, and the problem far from easy to solve. Where most people on here have a problem is with the blind faith people have put into Israel, and the outright condemnation of Hamas (or all Muslims, in the case of Helter_Skelter), whereas if they dig a little deeper they can see Israel carries the exact same guilt for more than a number of the charges.

They have to sit down and discuss what Israel can keep, and what they have to give back. Until that is done, Hamas may say it will stop firing rockets, but that probably won't last, and Israel won't keep its word either.

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This is going to be BLOODY. Those 400 + 2000 bomb causualties are going to look like nothing when this is done.

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likeitis

On 8 February 2006, Hamas head Khaled Mashal speaking in Cairo had clarified that "Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong", stating that Hamas would "possibly" agree to a ceasefire with Israel if it withdrew from the lands conquered in 1967.

"Possibly agree to a cease fire?" Haha! Are you trying to argue for or against Hamas here? What a worthless statement. And of course, they didn't say peace, because there is no peace with Islamic terrorist groups, only hudnas. There's only one group gullible enough to believe Hamas and that's, as usual, first-world leftists. Not even Hamas believes that Israel going back to the pre-1967 borders would end their struggle against the Infidel state.

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jackseoul: oy vey! No, it's you who needs to read again, seriously. Go back and look at my comment. Helter blames it solely on Hamas, using Egypt, Jordan, and other nations as examples of how even Arabs are against them. Fine. But then he turns around and says it's 'not at all' a border dispute and is a world-wide jihad by Islam.

I'm sorry, but he does not 'think Hamas is involved', and that is not what you said, either. Saying 'one is invovled' and saying 'one is to blame' is not the same thing at all. I'm sorry I have to explain even THAT to you, when you seem to have such a great grasp of English you get all pedantic on everyone. Show me someone who DOESN'T think 'Hamas is involved'! I can show you plenty who think Hamas is not solely to blame, though, my friend.

My point in refuting Helter was that, as usual, he takes one point and then argues 180 degrees a few minutes later. He is a known hater of Muslims and Islam, and tries to turn everything ultimately towards that end. YOU were sticking to Hamas, and then said it was not a problem with religion (immediately after stating Helter was 'right' and 'to blame for everything'.

Sorry to make you look like a fool, my friend, again. But hey, you go ahead and find the comment where I said, "Hamas has nothing to do with this" and 'is not involved' and I'll admit you are right and it's me who looks the fool.

Waiting.

And in the meantime, while we argue of the semantics of who said what, all of you are ignoring likeitis' proposals and the facts of history with Israel, and instead choosing to laugh about the hundreds dying on the Gaza strip.

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jackseoul: "Btw, your English is great. You must make loads of cash teaching engerish in Japan!"

hehehe... the usual, 'If you are a foreigner in Japan you are therefore an English teacher' fool's logic. I could easily make the wrong assumption that just because you have 'seoul' in your name you are a Canadian in Korea teaching 'Engerish'. But, I know that it's foolish to assume that foreign people have nothing else to offer or do in certain countries but teach.

I do appreciate the praise on my English, though. You'll get there too, some day.

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It's you who are naive for believing that this is simply based on religion.

Until you recognize that the conflicts between Muslims and Israel, Muslims and India, Muslims and Southern Thailand, Muslims and China, Muslims and the Philippines (way too many to list) are all conflicts of the religion of Islam, then you my friend, are the one who's naive.

Hamas is a political party.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Deal with it.

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Helter: "Until you recognize that the conflicts between Muslims and Israel, Muslims and India, Muslims and Southern Thailand, Muslims and China, Muslims and the Philippines (way too many to list) are all conflicts of the religion of Islam, then you my friend, are the one who's naive."

Here we go again! So you cannot deny that your entire agenda for posting on this thread is anti-Muslim? And now you're going to go on and say that all the problems in the world are based on Islam, and are you going to, as your ilk have in the past, say that are terrorists are Mulsim, too?

Israel is just as much of a terrorist organization as Hamas, my friend, for their actions now and through history, particularly in relation to current events in the Gaza strip.

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Like Helter Skelter is the last word on it.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Deal with it.

No more terrorist than Isreal.

I've already posted where Isreal made the first attack. Twice they attacked Palestineans and then when Hanas retaliated, they took the opportunity "THEN" to attack Palestine.

But it's the neocons, GOP stand to not condemn anthing that Isreal does no matter what.

This has nothing to do with religion anymore. Maybe years ago, but now it's idiots on both sides and mainly Isreal using their might to squash Palestine's. It's going to be as many as they can. < :-)

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They said it would not end quickly but that the objective was not to reoccupy Gaza or topple Hamas.

Anybody have a problem with that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Look at the second map down on the right of the page. The green rectangle on the center left of it is Gaza Strip. The pink area around Gaza is occupied territory since 1949. The towns of Sderot and Ashkelon, the targets of the rocket fire, are in that area. This area was designated to the Palestinians. The Israelis took it.

What you do not seem to understand or want to accept is that, as far as Palistinians (Hamas) are concerned, they are firing rockets into their own back yard, not into Israel. Israel is launching attacks from occupied land to secure their occupation of it.

Do you believe that might makes right, or that the original U.N. proposed borders stand? Whose land is it? Why?

A lot of it hinges on just how much weight you give the 1947 partition plan. Unfortunately, the U.N. did not put enough weight behind it. But still, if you just dismiss it, you support "might makes right". This is what the %100 pro-Israel crowd are doing.

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Jack: It's just a shame that from your opening, "I'm a Canadian and if an American threw a bottle in my backyard...." to your final comment, "BAGA" you've shown an unwillingness to earnestly engage in debate and discussion.

There are probably better boards out there for trolling, my friend. I for one am done with acknowledging your wildly unintelligible and sulky posts.

Again, if you wish to talk about the topic at hand, let's do so. Until then, as I said, there are better boards out there with people who will take the bait.

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smithinjapan, you're not conversing. Let alone making any sense. What I'm sarcastic towards you and you think I'm praising your intelligence (or lack thereof).

You've been preaching but no we won't join Hamas!

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There's only one group gullible enough to believe Hamas and that's, as usual, first-world leftists.

Hmmm...I think I stated pretty clearly it needed following up. As usual it is the violent war junkie who is unwilling to even agree to talks, because every minute of talking about ceasefires is another minute he was not killing someone or enjoying the slaughter of others.

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"I've already posted where Isreal made the first attack. Twice they attacked Palestineans and then when Hanas retaliated, they took the opportunity "THEN" to attack Palestine. But it's the neocons, GOP stand to not condemn anthing that Isreal does no matter what. This has nothing to do with religion anymore. Maybe years ago, but now it's idiots on both sides and mainly Isreal using their might to squash Palestine's. It's going to be as many as they can. < :-)"

Jackseoul: Alright, one more for the road.

"smithinjapan, you're not conversing. Let alone making any sense. What I'm sarcastic towards you and you think I'm praising your intelligence (or lack thereof)."

I'm fully aware that you were TRYING to be sarcastic, but as there were no English mistakes in the comments in question, I simply chose to regard your sarcasm as legitimate praise, since I knew it would drive you up the wall (which it clearly did). A poor person walking up to a clearly rich person and saying, "You're rich" may be trying to be sarcastic, but really all he/she is doing is pointing out the truth.

"You've been preaching but no we won't join Hamas!"

Now, do you want to talk again about 'not making any sense', as you say? Please... and then your, "What I'm sarcastic towards you and you think I'm praising your intelligence" has so many grammatical inconsistencies it's not worth pointing them out.

I am indeed conversing on this site, it is you, who when proven wrong, began resorting to child-like name-calling after the attempt at condescending failed. You tried to point out tiny little typos as major English errors and when the same was done to you as a result, well... you can see how you broke down in your last comment.

Now, any comments on the thread at hand? Some of us were saying that Hamas is not ENTIRELY to blame for what's going on, and Israel has just as much a part to play, if not more, and definitely as big a hand in working out a peace process. If you look at history, Israel has by far been the bigger aggressor and has commit more crimes in terms of breaking contracts/agreements.

Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

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Helter_Skelter: "Then why would Israel send out advanced notices to civilian populations to evacuate areas, when targeting civilians is the definition of terrorism? Are they just incompetent terrorists?"

Where are they civilian populations going to run to in this case, the fenced off areas? They do and they get shot. What's more, 'targeting civilians' is not the only definition of terrorism, my friend. And even THAT part of the definition puts Israel at guilt many times in the past, if not now as well. Again, where are the civilians going to run?

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Land was given to Israel, agreed upon by them, the UN, and surrounding areas in the late 40s. Israel took this, and then wanted more and took more by force later, in particular in '67. THAT land should be given back to Palestinians, if you want to talk about returning land. Israel can keep what it was given when the borders were laid down.

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HAMAS probably has several hundred members in its armed wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, along with its reported 6,000-man Executive Force and tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

Population

July 2007 estimate 1,481,080 (149th1) - census

Above from Wiki...

And Isreal is going to go into Palestine and and kill all the members of Hamas, huh?

Isreal is going to go into Gaza and selectively pick out and kill only Hamas members?

Isreal is going to do what? Go door to door and check everybody to see if their Hamas or not? Does Hamas have some marking? Is their skin lighter or darker?

What Isreal is doing is making more Hamas members every day. Whether they are card carring Hamas members or sympathizers that take up arms. Isreal, by their actions only makes it worse.

How can going into a country that you already trying to starve to death and now trying to kill 10,000+ people that this will make everything all better for them?

Isreal is a US funded killing machine. < :-)

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Only gullible dupes negotiate with terrorist groups.

The Israelis used to be terrorists too. They changed. But just because they are no longer terrorists (at least in my opinion) does not suddenly make them right nor does it make them the group to support.

I am sorry to have to break this too you as it will destroy you little black and white world, but even a terrorist can have legitimate claims and complaints.

But if you understand one thing in this post, understand that I believe both groups are wrong, and I feel obliged to support neither. Why should I? Why do you? Are you lonely or something? Maybe you can invite an Israeli to pitch a tent in your back yard then.

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Again, where are the civilians going to run?

Certainly Hamas anticipated this invasion after lobbing thousands of Qassam rockets into Israel. Ask them.

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Certainly Hamas anticipated this invasion after lobbing thousands of Qassam rockets into Israel.

How did the towns of Sderot and Ashkelon get to be a part of Israel?

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likeitis

The Israelis used to be terrorists too. They changed. But just because they are no longer terrorists (at least in my opinion) does not suddenly make them right nor does it make them the group to support. I am sorry to have to break this too you as it will destroy you little black and white world, but even a terrorist can have legitimate claims and complaints. But if you understand one thing in this post, understand that I believe both groups are wrong, and I feel obliged to support neither. Why should I? Why do you? Are you lonely or something? Maybe you can invite an Israeli to pitch a tent in your back yard then.

I agree with some things you say but at the end you say, "Maybe you can invite an Israeli to pitch a tent in your back yard then." If you don't support either why make such a comment? Why didn't you say Palestinian instead? I'm trying to understand your stance. It seems like you support one side more than the other like most of us do.

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Helter_Skelter: "Certainly Hamas anticipated this invasion after lobbing thousands of Qassam rockets into Israel. Ask them."

Sorry, bud. It was you who pointed out how Israelis are not terrorists solely because they do not target civilians, and used them warning civilians to flee as proof of your argument, so I'm asking you -- or perhaps Israel can answer on your behalf. Since you adamantly deny that Israel's actions are similar to if not the same as what you define terrorists, tell me where the sympathy was in warning the civilians to run, because I can certainly tell you it seems more cruel than kind to say, "Quick run! run! Bombs are coming!" and then simply laugh at all the people clamoring to get through the blockade... well... clamoring until you shoot them, of course, and claim that they might have been suicide bombers.

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jackseoul: "Why didn't you say Palestinian instead? I'm trying to understand your stance. It seems like you support one side more than the other like most of us do."

It doesn't seem at all like he's supporting one side more than the other. It seems like he's pointing out the folly of doing so to people who ONLY see the Israeli point of view and support it unconditionally. Hence, he uses the metaphor of Israeli's throwing up a tent in your backyard. Hell, you in your first comment on here did the exact same thing, but against the Palestinian side saying, "I am Canadian, and if an American threw something across the border I wouldn't tolerate it", or something along those lines. You made a point for Israel, and likeitis is doing the same, but for the Palestinian side so that you can see it is not one-sided.

Why does that mean he is necessarily 'more for one side'? And if you really think that most people are more for the Israeli side, I would ask you to look at where all the international pressure is being aimed, and at the current backlash in sympathy for the Jews in general. Only the US government is keeping it's 'give them heaps of cash and just don't ask what they do with it' policy.

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but even a terrorist can have legitimate claims and complaints

Plenty of people have legitimate claims and complaints, far worse than the "Palestinians". Most don't strap on bombs and blow up civilians in pizza parlors. That seems to be a Muslim thing. Man, you certainly are the definition of a terrorist apologist. I hope you don't mind if I quote you for future posts.

Understand that I believe both groups are wrong, and I feel obliged to support neither.

You've been exclusively trashing Israel so no need for the faux diplomacy here. Own up to it.

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How did the towns of Sderot and Ashkelon get to be a part of Israel?

See my post above...Arab League in a nutshell gave it to em when they refused the 1947 partition plan and choose war instead and then lost it.

"Might makes right"? Or a case of "To the victor goes the spoils"?

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Why are Hamas terrorists? They are extremists for sure as are those within the Israeli government running this assault. What each side there and here needs to do is turn down the rhetoric, climb off the idealogical beast and stand in the middle. No one party is solely to blame; both extreme camps are.

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jackseoul: "yet you're the one who assumes that the Israelis are cruel because they let Palestinian people know when to evacuate the bombs, and then laugh."

Why do you take everything so literally, even after posting your own metaphors? I don't know for a fact whether there are Israelis laughing or not, and if you read my post and previous others to Helter you'll see that I clearly said, "It seems cruel to warn them when they know there is nowhere for them to go". That was in direct question to me asking Helter where they could go. It's a known fact that Palestinian territory has one of the largest population densities in the world, if not the largest, and that it's more or less sealed off. When you're bombing that entire territory and not letting anyone out (until later, if they can verify they hold other passports), what's really the point in warning them to run and/or hide?

Anyway, sailwind made a good post above from Wikipedia, but the problem with wikipedia is that anyone can alter the information. While I don't believe that's necessarily the case here, I still find it odd that people asked a few days ago (I think it was SuperLib, but I can't recall) if we recognize the UN borders laid down, and then now people who share roughly the same stance as the aforementioned poster say the UN is meaningless (or even blame it on the rejection of the UN borders by Arab nations). Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Israel itself ignored the borders it stood behind until said wars.

First things first; a cease-fire with international monitors is needed, following which talks on a more permanent cease-fire. After that, who knows? At some point the current borders need to be addressed, and something needs to be decided by BOTH groups, or nothing will ever be solved. Hamas has expressed disagreement towards international monitors, but the way I see it they have no choice but to accept, and it's in their best interests as well. Start with that.

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This hatred will not end without the destruction of Israel and the Jews. There will always be terrorists ready to kill any Jew alive in the middle-east. If Israel were to be destroyed, then another Arab nation will control the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians will not be free.

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smithinjapan,

First things first; a cease-fire with international monitors is needed, following which talks on a more permanent cease-fire. After that, who knows? At some point the current borders need to be addressed, and something needs to be decided by BOTH groups, or nothing will ever be solved. Hamas has expressed disagreement towards international monitors, but the way I see it they have no choice but to accept, and it's in their best interests as well. Start with that.

That a boy, now you're sounding more like likeitis.

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"This hatred will not end without the destruction of Israel and the Jews."

That's a rather negative attitude. Why the rush to judgement? I think most people -- if not all -- in the world would be more for at least TRYING to do something before lying down in the middle of the street and giving up. There's clearly a way, but it's going to take a LOT of restraint from both sides of the fence, and a whole lot of patience to boot.

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jackseoul :"That a boy, now you're sounding more like likeitis."

Actually, that's what I've been saying all along... errr... well, the 'international monitors' part came in after it was suggested by Israel, of course, but beyond that it's what I've been more or less saying. I just have to stop off once in a while to guide some people who get a little off track :-)

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Oh my. The Ma'an News Agency has reported that there is a poll which shows sixty percent of Gaza residents are blaming Hamas for the hostilities that have broken out there.

This is very troubling. Since it is at odds with more widely reported perceptions of this conflict that means the international community is also just radicalizing Israel.

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"This hatred will not end without the destruction of Israel and the Jews."

That's a rather negative attitude. Why the rush to judgement? I think most people -- if not all -- in the world would be more for at least TRYING to do something before lying down in the middle of the street and giving up. There's clearly a way, but it's going to take a LOT of restraint from both sides of the fence, and a whole lot of patience to boot.

What are you talking about? Can't you figure out what I'm saying? Maybe it's a metaphor? It's like saying "when hell freezes over." Right? It ain't happening.

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sixty percent of Gaza residents are blaming Hamas for the hostilities that have broken out there

That's pretty amazing. Especially in juxtaposition to one hundred percent of first-world leftists blaming Israel for the hostilities. Glad to see the Palestinians are starting to get it. Of course, there's no hope for the leftists.

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Hey, what ever happened to likeitis? He was so eloquently explaining how fair and balanced he was about the Israel-Palestinian conflict. :-D

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"the 'international monitors' part came in after it was suggested by Israel, of course..."

SmithinJapan, and that's a good thing right?

What's the Hamas position?

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ProfJuan, interesting. Now 60% blame Hamas. Now this is what I expect rational people to think like. You blame the guys who had your house blown up and your family killed. Sometimes, it's not about who kicked my butt, it's about who got me into the fight. They same guys who disturbed the wasp nest. I have faith again!!

Many of you had "answers" for what should be done, like this was a game of Risk. I'm not going to name names, but this is more difficult than 4 or 5 points to make this world a happy place again.

Many of you never even thought about where the strength lies... in the people, not Hamas! This was where I placed the blame from the beginning and now we will see if there is any chance at halting the fight.

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Israel is doing right!

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Let's not fool ourselves or each other. I may be leaning toward Israel, you may be for Hamas (since it is a political party to some), but we all want the killing to stop. Now, the Palestinians have to get rid of the likes of Hamas themselves. Even Israel will not do it for them.

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I highly doubt that peace can be attained in any way until Israel returns the land it stole from the Palestinians and the people living in Gaza are given the opportunity to better their lives.

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I wonder what the Palestinians demonstrating on the streets in Canada and the US think now that a majority in Palestine blame Hamas. Even Abbas and Egypt's Mubarak were blaming Hamas.

Where are the guys that were blaming Israel on this forum? They've sadly left the building... even the Palestinians don't agree with you now.

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the air war has killed more than 480 Palestinians in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets.

Interesting statistic. As usual the Israeli reaction borders on outright terrorism in itself. The Israeli Army has one of the most sophisticated and up-to-date arsenals on this planet. Their military is pound-for-pound about the best there is and their secret service in Mossad is second to none. So why the need to kill 480 people for a handful of terrorists ? If they were doing this in some African regime then we would be calling it genocide. Because it's Israel versus the Palestinians then for some reason we don't ?

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an interesting article at AP

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_israel_palestinians

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Bholder, thanks but your link wouldn't come up for me.

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northlondon, read previous posts. Even 60% of the Palestinians are now blaming Hamas. All this could have been averted if not for the rhetoric and stupidity of Hamas.

So why the need to kill 480 people for a handful of terrorists?

Most of the 480 were actually Hamas. Probably at least in the high 300s. It's still not a good statistic. However, you make it sound like Hamas did nothing wrong? They lobbed a couple of thousand rockets and grenades, that's all.

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likeitis: a terrorist can have legitimate claims and complaints.

Having a complaint should never be confused with using terrorism as a response to that complaint. Terrorism is never a legitimate option. Too often I see Palestinian supporters blurring the lines between terrorism and the complaint. Hamas fires a rocket into a school and instead of rejecting the terrorist action they switch the focus to the complaint. Their unwillingness to reject terrorism is where the lines get blurred, in my opinion.

Martin Luther King had a complaint. So did Ghandi. But it was their response to the complaint that defined them.

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SuperLib

Having a complaint should never be confused with using terrorism as a response to that complaint. Terrorism is never a legitimate option.

In the case of Hamas, they are firing from Hamas controlled territories into Israeli controlled land. They kidnap soldiers and lob rockets and grenades all the while hiding behind women and children. Hamas, fires Qassam rockets into peoples houses, not aimed at military posts...

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smithinjapan: and used them warning civilians to flee as proof of your argument,

Smith, the warnings are used in the localized area where an attack is about to take place. Or if a house is going to get hit they call the surrounding houses. They aren't expecting them to move to another country and take up residence there. They're telling the civilians to take temporary shelter in another part of town. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. And in my opinion it does show the difference between Hamas and Israel.

You already know there is a difference so I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion anyway.

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ONCE AGAIN. Israel needs to stop firing, then Hamas and Israel need to talk about making the cease-fire more permanent, while international monitors watch.

USARonin: Yes indeed, I think it's a good idea and even necessary to have the international monitors. If you read my post, you'll notice that I said Hamas is against it, but has no choice in the matter anyway if it wants a cease-fire.

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First things first; a cease-fire with international monitors is needed, following which talks on a more permanent cease-fire. After that, who knows? At some point the current borders need to be addressed, and something needs to be decided by BOTH groups, or nothing will ever be solved. Hamas has expressed disagreement towards international monitors, but the way I see it they have no choice but to accept, and it's in their best interests as well. Start with that.

Therein lies the problem. You're telling Hamas they have no choice to accept, but in reality they do have a choice. They can reject it and continue to attack Israel and that's where we are now.

Everything begins and ends with the rocket fire. Once it stops the Israeli offensive stops. International monitors can be put in place and negotiations can begin. From there we can have peace again.

Talk of 1948, 1967, 1973, settlements, terrorism, etc, is all useless at this point.

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SuperLib: "You already know there is a difference so I'm not sure why we're even having this discussion anyway."

I agree there's a difference. I was making an extreme case for pointing out how it's not foolproof, to point out how the extreme argument that Israel is doing no wrong is... well... wrong. I agree wholeheartedly that Israel makes ATTEMPTS not to target innocents in its major bombing campaigns, but since Helter couldn't answer my question at all I asked 'where are they going to go?'.

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SuperLib: "herein lies the problem. You're telling Hamas they have no choice to accept, but in reality they do have a choice. They can reject it and continue to attack Israel and that's where we are now."

Just to clarify, I'm not telling Hamas what they have to do or not; I'm pointing out a fact of the matter. The choice is up to Israel to stop firing or not, but they are not going to unless monitors are brought in to check whether Hamas follows it or not. Israel seems to be buckling slightly under the international pressure, but attaching in my opinion what are realistic conditions in doing so. If Hamas publicly declares opposition to it then opinion will clearly move against them, in terms of the pressure. Besides, things can't continue the way they are now -- they will move either to full-scale war, with Israel also losing a lot of troops in guerilla fights, or Hamas will be forced to give in or collapse. Or hell, if they can hold out long enough and the slaughter is actually allowed to be monitored, Israel will finally get some pressure on them from Washington even and simply have to pull out and make lesser demands.

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I see that militants have fired 400 more rockets into Israel. Well, that oughta stop the invasion, eh! Idiots.

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sensei,shiuu..your analogies at the start of this thread are perhaps a tad simplistic..how about this one. The house in question is in fact a semidetached house in a peaceful town where for years two families lives happily side by side..then one families distant cousins suffered outrageous persecution in a far off town at the hands of the the fascist lord.The surviving family members from that far off town wanted to move to somewhere safer..they remembered their distant cousins lived in a peaceful town so they moved in with that family,,unfortunately there was not enough room in the house for all the new members ,and because of the horrid persecution they had suffered they wanted to feel safe again,so they asked the next door family to move out to the shed in the garden so that the new arrivals could live in their house.Naturally enough the family said no we want to live in our house, but because the lord of this safe town felt immense guilt and sympathy for the far of cousins suffering at the hands of the facist lord,he allowed the eviction of the palestinian family to occur. Since their eviction they have been living in the shed in the garden unable to leave town without the permission of the newly extended israeli family..and whereas the israeli family have the best home security devices that money can buy..the people living in the shed are not even permitted to open and shut their own door. If it was my family in the shed..i`d be throwing more than bricks through the window of that house..because half of it is mine..and i am going to get it back.

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Bento, best analogy I have read in a long time. It should be required reading in all high schools.

The only thing I would add is that several of the ones moved into the garden shed were killed in the process.

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Heh. The only thing you missed was the fact that when the shed door is left open, people in the house have a habit of blowing up.

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yawn...

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"his government exhausted all other options before approving the operation"

No, they didn't. They could have opted to give up and jump into the Mediterranean Sea.

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Even 60% of the Palestinians are now blaming Hamas

Really? So you have been and asked 100% of the people to get this statistic? Or was it given to you by a Jewish owned source??

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You've been exclusively trashing Israel so no need for the faux diplomacy here. Own up to it.

Why should I trash Hamas and Palistinians? We have enough of that here already, no need to add to it.

I have declared both sides in the wrong and presented what I find to be the most balanced solution the problems, full aware that Israel is historically in the wrong far more than Hamas is today. Your not liking it does not make it faux diplomacy.

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neverknow2,

Even 60% of the Palestinians are now blaming Hamas

Really? So you have been and asked 100% of the people to get this statistic? Or was it given to you by a Jewish owned source??

Wake up! This was not my statistic or from a Jewish source as far as I know. ProfJuanColePhd stated that 60% of Gaza residents now blame Hamas. Apparently from The Ma'an News Agency. It's Arabic...

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likeitis

Heh. The only thing you missed was the fact that when the shed door is left open, people in the house have a habit of blowing up.

It was not missed. That happened later. But in expanding the analogy into later years, its perfectly valid to add that point on.

Wasn't Triumvere referring to the Israeli house being blown up by the Palestinians?

Triumvere, please set that one straight.

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Talk of 1948, 1967, 1973, settlements, terrorism, etc, is all useless at this point.

If Israelis move out of the areas taken in 1948, the rockets will stop. Not that I advocate Israelis moving out of that particular area of ill gotten land, but it is another way to make the rockets stop. What I advocate is Israel going to the negotiating table and promising to give up 1967 ill gotten land only.

There really ought to be a clause somewhere about recognizing ill gotten land as the victor's after a certain period, like 50 years. That would end the bickering. I would prefer the U.N. just grow some balls and teeth, but at least the 50 year rule will settle things after a while.

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likeitis, you should be the UN Leader, jeez. That's your only solution so far... for the Israelis to give up land. You claim to be neither here nor there. You seem to be contradiction your stance all the while employing your faux diplomacy. Caught you again!

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"If Israelis move out of the areas taken in 1948, the rockets will stop."

According to who ? yourself?

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Israel moved from Gaza about 2 years ago and the rockets went on... What on earth are you trying to suggest here exactly?

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"If Israelis move out of the areas taken in 1948, the rockets will stop."

According to who ? yourself?

This is what I believe, yes. Others here are also making promises on behalf of the Israelis should the rockets stop.

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likeitis, you should be the UN Leader, jeez. That's your only solution so far... for the Israelis to give up land. You claim to be neither here nor there. You seem to be contradiction your stance all the while employing your faux diplomacy.

No idea how you think I have contradicted myself. Just because I have stated that a retreat to 1948 boundaries would stop the rockets does not mean that is what I advocate.

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The Israeli experiment to peaceably give Gaza away has failed.

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Jackseoul,

What I was trying to get at is that the severe mobility restrictions (such as the checkpoints and the security fence) which massively detract from the Palestinian quality of life are not there becasue the Israelis are racist oppressors, as many here would seem to have it. They are made necessary by the fact that the Palestinians have elected terrorism (namely suicide bombing) as a form of resistance. Israeli kindergarten teachers are armed to the teeth - why, becasue Palestinain gunmen used to target kindergartens. They don't target them now, because the teachers shoot first and ask questions later. Similarly, the 'security fence', which has so greatly enraged the Palestinians and their supporters, has also drastically cut the number of attacks that the Israeli's suffer. I have a really hard time understanding how that seems to be absent from so many people's moral calculus.

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Israel has sent in the troops and already troops are dying from it. They are further endangering the men and women of their nation, and the possibility of attacks from the Hez or Palestinian militants are high. In short, they say all this is to make things safer, when they've made them more dangerous. Time to back off a little and get out of Gaza. When the dust settles a little, bring on the threat of further attacks with the promise that they will be held off so long as international monitors are allowed in. Hamas doesn't seem to want it, but I suspect they'll agree at least to some watered down version if the threat of further invasion/destruction remains high.

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Israel moved from Gaza about 2 years ago and the rockets went on... What on earth are you trying to suggest here exactly?

Gaza strip was taken in 1967. I applaud the Israelis for giving it back, but it is not all they took. Far from it. The area around Gaza strip they took in 1948 even though it was designated for the Palestinians too. Hamas still feels it belongs to the Palestinians. I can't blame them. But I do suggest they give it up. In return for that concession I would give the Palestinians everything else the Israelis took in 67 and tell them, that is it. No more rockets, terrorism or bull crap will be tolerated. Same for Israelis.

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The Israeli experiment to peaceably give Gaza away has failed.

Yeah, strangely, you steal $1000 from someone, give them back $200 and they are still pissed at you. Go figure.

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That's your only solution so far

Please direct me to your solution. Date, time and thread please.

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if people want to ignore the real reasons why people behave the way they do then fine,bypass your brain,but arguments are never won or lost, the number of people holding different opinions merely change..the number who hold the opinion that Israel is now the primary aggressor is rising. I was interested to note the use ,by an Israeli general in a tv interview yesterday,of the word "eradicate" when she stated there objectives in terms of Hamas..give the situation a few more years and that word could well change to "exterminate"..that would be irony working overtime. Eradicate is a word normally used when dealing with animals less important than humans..or as the fascists in europe used to call them..untermenchen..all human life is precious..not just the lives of those who share your opinion.

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"exterminate" is exactly what one should do to a person who wish to kill him. what on earth do you suggest?

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USARonin: "SmithinJapan, that wasn't proof. That was just an opinion piece found in cyberspace."

Saying Israel is bad -- that's an opinion, regardless of whether you can back it up or not. Same with saying Palestinians are bad. Saying a lot of Palestinians are dying is not opinion, it's fact, as is saying that now a lot of Israeli troops are being injured as we speak (if not killed).

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Hamas is cancer. They're going to sacrifice each and every last Palestinian just so they can continue to fire symbolic rockets that have little to no strategic value. They slaughtered their own people when they took over Gaza. They turned mosques into military compounds. They set up batteries of missiles next to houses. They smuggle in weapons over food and medicine. They blackmail their own women into becoming suicide bombers. They run commercials on TV teaching children that killing innocent Israelis is the path to heaven.

Then when the crap hits the fan, they smuggle themselves into another country and lead their suicidal war from there. War is simply the only thing Hamas knows. Period.

When it's all said and done and the Israeli offensive ends, they're going to stroll back into Gaza, look at all of the dead bodies and destruction they traded for the right to fire their useless rockets, and then they're going to cheer.

These men are an absolute cancer on the world.

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JackSeoul: "Btw, us Canucks do generally have a good understanding of American history. How's your knowledge about Canada."

I'm Canadian, silly! So... who is 'Mr. Assumption', again? hahaha... seriously, you undermine your own arguments altogether; there's really no need for me to do so. My point is that just because you are Canadian doesn't mean that you know more about American history than a person from Europe might. Don't kid yourself, my friend. We're a lot closer, to be sure, but that doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. And don't forget that Canada's education system, if you are aware, is not 'universal' and what you learn in history depends entirely on the school.

I don't have a problem because you're a Canadian at all. I have a problem because you are a Canadian who assumes you know more about another country than someone else does, strictly based on proximity.

I'm trying to be civil here, and when I kindly point out your errors you seem to get into hissy fits that are full of contradictions.

"You keep saying you want a fix to this problem but your lies and misinformation get in the way again."

What lies? Go ahead and show me where, my friend, and I'll admit I was mistaken. If not, well... I'll be waiting for your apology.

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I think its fair to say that Hamas does not care about the actual citizens of Palestine. They care about Jihad, the Cause and Martyrdom. They care about Victory. But they do not care about the people.

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Anyway, I'm calling it a night, all. Too entertaining. I've been following up on what's happening in Gaza, and it's not pretty.

Regardless of who you seem to support, or whether you're just one of the more enlightened who believe that neither said is ultimately right and both have a lot of work to do if they don't want to destroy each other, I hope that you hope that things will improve. I doubt any one of us wants to see things escalate and get worse.

So here's hoping when I check in tomorrow there will be some improvements -- meaning steps towards this ending in a non-violent way, and with as little bloodshed as possible.

Peace, all!

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When I say 'too entertaining', by the way, I mean many of the posts on here, not the situation in Gaza. Just wanted to clarify as there seem to be one or two in particular of late that like to take things out of context. Peace.

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likeitis: Yeah, strangely, you steal $1000 from someone, give them back $200 and they are still pissed at you. Go figure.

I know what you mean. Some guy did that to me and I blew up his cousin's house and killed everyone inside. But let's not forget that $800 is $800. That's the real point I'm trying to make here.

Moderator: Forget the analogies and please stay on topic.

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They're going to sacrifice each and every last Palestinian just so they can continue to fire symbolic rockets that have little to no strategic value. They slaughtered their own people when they took over Gaza. They turned mosques into military compounds. They set up batteries of missiles next to houses. They smuggle in weapons over food and medicine. They blackmail their own women into becoming suicide bombers. They run commercials on TV teaching children that killing innocent Israelis is the path to heaven.

I would not be so sure of all that information. Yesterday's Grad rockets sometimes turn out to be today's oxygen tanks.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=pSUoVtHx5XU&feature=related

I don't think a rocket would be that consistently black (cool). Oxygen tanks though, I have dealt with enough of those. Also, I don't see any tail fins, you?

It gets harder to tell once you have blown it all up, and the Israelis are counting on that, I assure you.

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It gets harder to tell once you have blown it all up, and the Israelis are counting on that, I assure you.

Likeitis, your statement is inconsistent with the Israelis disire to have international monitors.

-Kind of defeats your whole premise, doesn't it?

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After this move I expect Abbas to deploy his troops to take Gaza back and then we can try for peace again.

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Israel is playing so many people so well; effectively taking the issues of occupation --West Bank-- blockade --of Gaza-- out of the equation... and the dissection continues as do the launch of rockets into Israel.

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Likeitis, your statement is inconsistent with the Israelis disire to have international monitors.

I don't know so much about that, so I will ask you some questions:

Not taking this alleged "desire" into question, where are those monitors right now exactly?

Will the monitors view targets before they are are destroyed or after? Are they doing so now? If not, who are we blaming and how convenient is it?

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Time to clarify a few things and my short term position on all this and then the real long term solution.

First maybe the suprise of many, I have no great love for Israel. The building of settlements in conquered territory is one of dumbest things she ever did. It was asinine even though she may have actually thought at that time that she was in fact God's chosen people and he blessed this idiocy by providing a victory over her vastly numerical superior enemies, the reality is it just excerbated and complicated this mess and for a just solution and long term peace on both sides.

At present and it is obvious even to the most rabid HAMAS supporter here, Israel has realized her mistake, going so far as to remove by force settlements in Gaza, settlements she won in war and held for thirty years. In return she got rocket fire and a terrorist base on her southern border. An intolerable situation and one no nation on earth should have to endure for any reason whatsoever.

So in her present situation I support her efforts to get rid of Hamas and restore peace from the threat of terrorism and rockets on her southern citizens. I wish she did not have to go in with force as the civilian casualities will be high. I was hoping HAMAS would come to it senses after the air campaign but HAMAS true to form shows what extremist nutbags they really are and now doors have to be kicked in to get the rats out their cellars. I hope the air campaign did enough enough damage to the weapons stores and supplies that this will be a short fight and calm can be restored and a short term political solution then unfolds.

The long term solution is this. Israel does have to give up land for peace. It does have to cede that Palistinian rights were violated and compensation is due to the displaced in the areas she won by war. She has to quit waiting for a partner in peace to emerge from the Palistinian side and state flat out that she is willing to return to something close to the 67 borders. Those borders have to be modify a bit from the original 67 ones, due to the fact that East Jerusalem and her surbuban environs have been pretty much annexed into Isreal proper since 67, but this are issues that can be negotiated in a fair settlement on final borders betwenn the two.

After she announces that she is willing to do this and provide compensation to the displaced comes the part that has always destroys the chance for real peace.

I have no love for the Palistians either, they have missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The Palistinians have to make it clear that they finally understand they have LOST the war with Israel. They do not have to say out loud but what has always destroyed all progress for peace is the Palistinian insistence on the right of return into Israel proper.

It is never going to happen, it would mean of the Jewish State and the sooner they get into their thick heads that dropping this demand is the real hindrance here, the sooner they will get their State. Dropping the right of return and I'm not kidding myself here, as I know it is a bitter pill for them to swallow, as it admits that they are really a defeated people with no chance of bringing back what was in the past, is the only way to move all of this forward.

Israel does trade land for peace, she gave back the Sinai to Egypt. She will do the same with the Palistinians if they drop this demand. Until Palistine and those her love her can find the courage and wisdom to swallow a little bit of pride and drop the right of return we will never see peace in this part of the world between the two.

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Hats off Sailwind. Well done. Complete agreement here.

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Likeitis, what is it that you don't know? That the Israelis do or do not want monitors?

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bobafett: After this move I expect Abbas to deploy his troops to take Gaza back and then we can try for peace again.

Now that would be interesting.

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That the Israelis do or do not want monitors?

This is unknowable. I heard the Israelis said they wanted them, but I have nothing to verify that. I only have the word of a poster.

So, I don't know if this was actually said by an appropriate representative of Israel. And I think my other question were not only completely clear, but what really counts. I have heard enough lip service to things to last me a life time.

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Just came on for a quick check before turning off the computer and I wanted to say, good job, Sailwind. Single best post I have seen from you, EVER! I am pretty much 100% in agreement as to your solution proposals. I think that's about the best wrap up for a thread we're going to see in a long time, and after this I predict pretty much nothing but well-deserved praise for Sailwind. Good job.

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Will you take side if a robber fight a thief?

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Until Palistine and those her love her can find the courage and wisdom to swallow a little bit of pride and drop the right of return we will never see peace in this part of the world between the two.

Kind of difficult when you have to drag the corpse of your child out of a building that has just been blown up by an Israeli missile don't you think ? It might take a little more than 'swallowing a little bit of pride' after that experience. For every Palestinian child, mother and father killed by the Israelis, it guarantees another generation of Hamas terrorism against Israel, which surely the Israelis and the Americans must understand by now ?

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Likeitis, your statement is inconsistent with the Israelis disire to have international monitors.

Ah, now I see the problem is with your statement and not the facts. The Israelis wanted monitors as part of a truce with Gaza, NOT to monitor their invasion of Gaza. I hope you have got that straight now.

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Kind of difficult when you have to drag the corpse of your child out of a building that has just been blown up by an Israeli missile don't you think ? It might take a little more than 'swallowing a little bit of pride' after that experience. For every Palestinian child, mother and father killed by the Israelis, it guarantees another generation of Hamas terrorism against Israel, which surely the Israelis and the Americans must understand by now ?

Agreed, Northlondon, lets do this a different way then I suggested. Israel pulls a full occupation again of GAZA, restores her settlements and declares martial law in the strip. Then keeps her boot down the necks of the Palistinians, you seem more down with that instead of them giving up the right of return.

Progessive thinking at its finest on display once again.......Playing the poor 'victim card' for HAMAS and why they resort to terrorism. They gave GAZA back and this is the best you can come up with?

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Likeitis, the Israelis want international monitors. That's all I've stated.

It seems you have to 'straighten' me out to afford yourself wriggle room to avoid respondin' to my intitial statement with integrity.

And?

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this whole situation just shows how weak and petty the human race is....we have lost sight of what was important to us...everything is short-sighted and we use our words to cover up our despicable actions....everytime I hear another update on the gaza situation, I can't help but imagining both sides and their actions to be that like of 5 yr olds....screaming at each other, throwing their toys at each other, having already forgetten why they started fighting and being totally illogical. This is so sad....

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Sailwind, I think you read me wrong. I have no time for those terrorists who hide behind the label Hamas. Their rockets also kill children and women in Israel. But I do speak out against the Israeli reaction, knowing full well that they are fueling years and years of future terrorist recruits in Palestine. And Israel are more than happy with that scenario, as it totally justifies their military existence, their 'no questions' strongarm tactics and guarantees another year of US$3 billion of US aid. Peace in Israel and Palestine ? How will the US government convince it's taxpayers to shell out that kind of funding when there is peace ? They gave Gaza back (big deal when it is rife with unemployment and economic strife) but they also allowed Hamas to bully their way into power over Fatah. Why is nobody asking how that was allowed to happen without intervention ?

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divide and conquer: the Palestinians will be forced out under the crumbling Gaza infrastructure. The Palestinians will be expunged and all will be well again. Hamas will be forced to terrorize someone else.

Roman logic always works.

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Sailwind..can you explain,without later changing your definitions, why it is the Palestinians that should drop their right of return claims.Rather than "it is never going to happen" why not try and Justify this "necessity" for the peace process to advance..why should Israel not become another country with another name and be the internationally monitored homeland for Jews and Palestians alike.It would not be the first time in the last 20 years that an internationally recognised country has become a different country and be internationally recognised after the change.That would remove all motivation for Palestinian terror attacks and Jewish Counter terror attacks.This solution is not unacceptable to the Palestinians...who is preventing this possible solution? Or is it too much like hard work..so the killing continues through moral and logistical lethargy.Its the status quo thats causing the trouble...Why is it that the "military wing" of the Palestinians are deemed Terrorists, yet the "military wing " of the Israelies get to call themselves the Israeli Defence Force..these are some of the "Real World" issues that motivate people to extreme actions.. Israel prefers to remove the people rather than remove their motivation..

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Northlondon,

Gave my opinion as to what the long term solution should be. I've watched this sad state of of affairs between the two as long as you have, from the Oslo accords to the Camp David talks with Clinton, Barak and Arafat, both the infitada's and the 4 party quartet talks and two state solution through the Bush years.

It always hangs up on the right of return. My opinion until the Palistinian's finally drop that demand this will never change. Israel isn't going to grant it as it means the end of the Jewish state. The Palistinians that would return would become the majority in Israel and Israel isn't going to sign over her death warrant by letting them back in and making the Jewish population the minority in her borders. That's just the reality that they need to accept, they have been able to negotiate almost all the other points. The outline for a two state solution has been pretty clear for years now except on this one point. I'll say it again, I know this is hard for the average Palistinian to accept but accept he must and his leaders really wants peace with Israel, if not endless war will continue and this sorry spit of land.

As for HAMAS, how about this for a novel idea, instead of these sorry idiots firing rockets into Israel and getting exactly what they deserve in return for this idiocy, they should have fired shoes at them instead.

Thats how you fight for and win people and draw them over to your cause, not by terrorism and suicide bombers but by shoes.

Think about that one for minute.

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Likeitis, the Israelis want international monitors. That's all I've stated.

What a loser cop out. You know what you meant and what we were talking about. You quoted me and replied to the quote. The context was clear.

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Sailwind : you have an interesting point of view, we can always advise the others "you should do this, you should do that" but most of the time, they don't listen to you. It's a nice ideological solution, however, I think it will never happen, knowing the history of this conflict...

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The Secretary General of the United Nations calls for an end to the ground invasion. The European Union calls for an immediate ceasefire. Meanwhile the good ol' United States of America blocks a vote for an immediate ceasefire. Good ol' bastions of liberty and freedom eh ? What a total disgrace to the human race the USA has turned out to be.

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Unfortunately, we all know that Israel or Palestinians will never make the conciliation move by themselves, someone else must intervene. But we also know that Israel will never listen to anyone, especially the UN resolutions, that Israel always ignored, I wonder who can end this conflict effectively. My personal point of view is that the Russians, Chinese and European need to get united to stop this madness by force since we can't count on the UN resolution. (USA will put a veto)

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"The European Union calls for an immediate ceasefire."

It's about time. Over 1000 cars set on fire on the 31st, and that was Paris alone!

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'USA'Ronin, just listened to a news story of how a mother and her 4 children were killed (murdered) today by an Israeli/ US Military Aid missile attack on their home and had lay bleeding to death in their own home because there are no emergency services able to get to people thanks to the power cut by the 'humane' Israelis. IF the US had voted with everyone else yesterday for an immediate ceasefire then that mother and all of her children will be alive now instead of dead. Now do you want to justify anymore American blood on it's hands ? And I'm not the progressive liberal type you seem to have stereotyped me as.

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northlondon, there is this thing called context. It is usually found in the bit quoted. If you do not read the bit quoted, you will not understand the context.

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North,

I know war is not nice, and I know that the Palestinians are having a hard time but the Arab nations are more to blame for this conflict than the U.S and Israel. They have been using these people as a propaganda weapon and cannon fodder ever since the Jews were repatriated. Take another look at it.

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And where is the great saviour Obama right now ? Oh that's right, he's playing golf on holiday in Hawaii. And not even one comment from him.

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Israel currently maintains the moral high ground but could quickly lose it depending on how long the military operation goes on and the number of civilian casualties resulting from it. Israel appears fully aware that the media is easily manipulated (and its readers) to Hamas propaganda and so far have executed the operation with near perfection and minimal civilian casualties.

The UN once again is proving its incompetence with a call for a one sided cease fire that does nothing to prevent Hamas from continuing to launch rockets and mortars into Israel.

Hamas had a chance to avoid this horrible calamity by halting rocket and mortar attacks into Israel. Hamas and Hamas alone is responsible for every drop of blood spilled in this attempt by Israel to protect its people.

Maybe Obama and his so called brilliant cast of "Whiz Kids" will be able to figure a solution which allows Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefully but even "The One" is going to need the cooperation of both parties; Israel to go back to its original borders and Palestinians to recognize Israels right to exist and full cessation of violence.

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Israel currently maintains the moral high ground

Israel certainly does not have the moral high ground, it never has. If there truly is a God, Israel will get its butt kicked severely. Unfortunately, I'm afraid they'll get away with this once again.

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hey jack got a question for you. say you are a guy and you have a family and your family is in harms way, are you not going to do what you need to do to protect them regardless of what the underlying causes are?

you can't expect the government of Israel to sit there and do nothing while Hamas terrorizes Israeli citizens with indiscriminate rocket and mortar attacks. the government of israel has a moral obligation to its citizens to protect them and that is the indisputable moral high ground I am talking about.

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It is fight or die for Israel! The Hamas fiends will not be appeased until all of the Jewish people anywhere in the world are DEAD. Next will come imposing Sharia Law and their version of this on the world. Jews in the middle east are being killed on sight. How many of them are left in the other countries of the middle east? Europe wants to go back to its old ways and get rid of the Jewish people in their countries. They hide their hate well. Again it is fight or die!

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hey vor, why do assume all this started with rockets. Gaza is an overcrowded concentration camp, Palestinians are sealed within its heavily guarded boarders. Israel determines who and what can enter and exit Gaza under its very strict blockade, severely restricting access to food, fuel, medicine, and income. So, I've got a question for you. say you are a guy and you have a family and your family has been living under these terrible conditions for decades, are you not going to do what you need to do to protect them? regardless of what the underlying causes are?

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good point YuriOtani, there were around a million jews living in Arab countries at the start of the 20th century. Most of these Jews were expelled and their possessions confiscated prior to their deportations. Hostility toward Jews throughout history is unprecedented and they have the right to the same self determination as everyone else. Until the Muslim world comes to terms with that, Israel has every right to do what they need to do to protect themselves even if that pisses off the PC crowd.

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sure jack i'm less afraid about answering your question then you are of mine. as a father I have the best interest of my family in mind at all times. I will not send any of my children out strapped with explosives to kill people i don't like. If I have a dispute I would seek legal channels to resolve and not resort to firing my weapons indiscriminately in order to provoke them into attacking for some sort of high stakes public relations gain. now jack, over to you, like Israel, would you not do what you needed to do to protect your family when they are in harms way?

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If I have a dispute I would seek legal channels to resolve and not resort to firing my weapons indiscriminately in order to provoke them into attacking for some sort of high stakes public relations gain

Seek legal channels? What are you talking about? Israel ignores countless UN resolutions, more than any other state.

And Israel has always done exactly that, firing weapons indiscriminately in order to provoke the Palestinians into responding. They claim they are targeting militants, but that is all BS. Most of the victims in this and past attacks by the Israelis have been civilians. Israel is committing genocide, there is not enough lipstick in the world to make Israel look good here.

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okay Jack is see where this is going. You cannot answer my question because you can't admit that Israel is simply doing what it needs to do to protect its people and now you want to throw out one absurd accusation after another. sorry bub. I just got bored.

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That's right vor. I will never support genocide, even when it is dressed up to look like self defense. Take away the lipstick, and you'll see the genocide. And the scary thing is, Israel has been getting away with it for decades. I'm sorry genocide of the Palestinian people bores you, it saddens and angers most normal people.

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JackBerstein : The peopl like VOR or YuriOtani don't know the real facts and can't see what is happening in front of them. They are blind although their eyes are wide opened.

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genocide? Its called war.

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northlondon: Kind of difficult when you have to drag the corpse of your child out of a building that has just been blown up by an Israeli missile don't you think ? It might take a little more than 'swallowing a little bit of pride' after that experience. For every Palestinian child, mother and father killed by the Israelis, it guarantees another generation of Hamas terrorism against Israel, which surely the Israelis and the Americans must understand by now ?

You speak as if the Israelis haven't faced their own children being blown up by the Palestinians, which in turn creates a military response from Israel. Surely the Palestinians, Iranians, Europeans, and terrorist apologists must understand that by now?

Look, the key is to stop the violence, not to justify it. The past is in the past and it needs to stay there if there's to be any hope for the future. I can't imagine that either side is ever going to get what it feels is proper retribution for what the other side put it through, but that's not the right frame of mind to create peace.

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northlondon: I doubt very much that once you take your American Football protective gear off

Sorry...I didn't realize that your entire function in this debate is to criticize America. I responded to the first comment I saw from you before reading the ones after.

By the way, the purpose of USARonin's comments is to mock you, since you obviously can't figure it out for yourself. Good luck with that. If you continue down the path you're heading you're going to find embarrassment waiting for you at the end. He's experienced. You aren't. Your nationality isn't going to save you.

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likeitis... I've read about the monitors in several articles online. A few countries have put forth ceasefire proposals, and Israel has said that any proposal must have monitors on the ground in Gaza to make sure both sides are complying. What they're really saying is that Hamas has used previous ceasefires to smuggle in weapons and prepare for future attacks. They don't use them to create an end to the violence with the goal of future negotiations towards peace. Israel is saying that a ceasefire will work against them unless that provision is put in place.

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JackBerstein at 05:25 AM JST - 5th January

That's right vor. I will never support genocide, even when it is dressed up to look like self defense. Take away the lipstick, and you'll see the genocide. And the scary thing is, Israel has been getting away with it for decades. I'm sorry genocide of the Palestinian people bores you, it saddens and angers most normal people.

FromEurope at 05:42 AM JST - 5th January

JackBerstein : The peopl like VOR or YuriOtani don't know the real facts and can't see what is happening in front of them. They are blind although their eyes are wide opened

It really is a shame you guys have to take this tact. Thats okay, when you are painted into a corner or only see things your way, you have no choice.

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"And where is the great saviour Obama right now?"

Heh, I saw a political comic in the paper with Obama standing in the ME holding "Change" and Hope" signs, and with rockets exploding and miitants running around firing machine guns, he says, "Ahem!"

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Obama administration,how should they handle Gaza and Israel. They will handle it on, January 20th.

Does anyone else know how to solve Gaza palestine woes and Israel woes,please suggest any solutions?

Peacemakers are clueless, the 2 sides of these woes, also are clueless.

Any one, any kind of clues.

When this war ends,we might get some clues.

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The peopl like VOR or YuriOtani don't know the real facts and can't see what is happening in front of them. They are blind although their eyes are wide opened.

I suspect they know very well what is happening. They are covering for their friends.

Does anyone else know how to solve Gaza palestine woes and Israel woes,please suggest any solutions?

For starters, I suggest Israel respect UN resolutions. That would certainly help. Even better would be for all Israelis to return to their respective homelands and stop taking US taxpayers' money to move into Palestinian land.

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"Does anyone else know how to solve Gaza palestine woes and Israel woes, please suggest any solutions"

Foe starters, I suggest Hamas and the Palestinians supporting them stop firing rockets and mortars at Israel. That would certainly help. Even better would be for all troublemakers in Gaza to get with the program and stop making life miserable for so many.

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I think what should happen, is that Israel should take the gloves off. Start doing what Hamas does. Everytime Hamas fires off a rocket, Israel should fire off one as well. Everytime Hamas sends another bomber to blow themselves up in a market, Israel should fire a rocket at a crowded Gaza market too. You people that want to accuse Israel of doing all these horrible things, lets have Israel retaliate the same way Hamas does. Sure a lot of innocent civilians would be killed, but then, you all seem to be fine with that anyway. Guess it doesn't matter, as long as they're Jews.

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UN should step in to stop this barbaric Israeli aggression towards civilians, terrorism is not a problem that demands an overthetop military solution. This invasion is pure evil.

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Crucs, neither the UN nor the USA have the power to 'step in and stop' Israel.

It will take time and pressure.

Just as Iran cannot now stop Hamas right away.

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Political and economical sanctions would be a good start, if anything would get Israel in touch with reality would be the prospect of them losing their US backers, and left completely isolated in the middle east.

The problem here is their constant persecution of the palestinian civilian population. These rockets arent launched from city blocks, so why is there such widespread death and destruction?

The irony is Israel is acting exactly the same as the Nazis used too. Somebody has to do something.

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UN should step in to stop this barbaric Israeli aggression towards civilians, terrorism is not a problem that demands an overthetop military solution. This invasion is pure evil.

Crusades - Actually the UN should step in to stop the barbaric Hamas attacks upon Israel. The evil here is that if Hamas wishes to fight Israel, they should come out and do so rather then hiding like rats among civilians, forcing their people to be human shields. No, stop Hamas, and the invasion goes away. End Hamas evil reign of terror!

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Here's an idea... carpet bomb the place. Then BOOM. No more rockets into Israel.

Problem solved. Or, they could simply STOP lobbing rockets into Israel to begin with and avoid the military action. Nahh, they won't do that.

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They're all mental. Someone drops a bomb, someone retaliates, someone retaliates, someone retaliates.... It's a never-ending cycle. I know I'm MASSIVELY generalising but so many atrocities have been committed by both sides over the years that it's impossible to place the blame on either. They're both as bad as each other.

I don't think this is a situation that will be resolved by fighting or talking. If they can hold back on the fighting for a generation or two the hatred between them would be lessened and neutralised.

Every post argues one way or the other. I'm sat here thinking "Palestinian sympathy, must be a Muslim/ Isreali sympathy, must be a Jew". This whole conflict is the only proof you need of the damaging power of religion.

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molenir "guess it doesnt matter as long as they are jews"..which religion are you jewish,christian,islamic or just plain moronic..all human lives are precious..soldiers too.

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Yeah, thats my point too. It shouldn't matter, but to some it obviously does. To some posting here, it seems that the lives of Jews are much less important then the lives of others.

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AS a neutral i find Israels attacks on innocent women and children beyond belief. World opinion is totally against Israel , except from the USA, the Israeli paymaster, weapons supplier, and no1 fan.

Now prominent Jews in Europe are being warned of revenge attacks, and all because the state of Israel decided to destroy the people and property of the Gaza residents, innocent or not. An absolute disgrace.

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AS a neutral i find Israels attacks on innocent women and children beyond belief.

So, as a neutral, how do you find their attacks on Hamas? Hamas is hiding behind the skirts of their women, but Israel is shooting at them, not the women and children who shelter them. Thats what I find truly disgraceful.

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The BBC just showed proof thatbthe Israelis knew ther were no gunmen in the UN school, came from Israeli military, for you doubters.

Cna anyone on either side now seriously doubt that Israel is comitting genocide?

This is like the Warsaw ghetto, very, very sad indeed.

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Molenir, I really don't see how you can sympathise with Israel? This is an atrocity. It's a moral disgrace. If Iehovah actually existed surely this would be punishable with eternal damnation.

The Palestinians are just as bad. They have mercilessly maimed and killed thousands of innocent Jews AND Muslims over the years. They're still using dirty tactics to cause as much damage as possible. If Allah actually existed surely this would be punishable with eternal damnation.

How anyone can think their sympathetic comments are valid and without bias on this topic is beyond belief. Christians and Jews ("the West") will GENERALLY sympathise with Israel, Muslims will generally sympathise with the Palestines.

I would love to hear comments from a Muslim who sympathises with Israel and vice-versa.

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