Israeli military completes Gaza pullout

The Israeli military said it would investigate allegations by the United Nations and human rights groups that it wrongly used white phosphorous—an ingredient in weapons that inflicts horrific burns.

I love that. The same guys who used the weapons will have to investigate it. But we'd do the same thing.

although the cease-fire was frayed when its navy opened fire toward beaches in northern Gaza

This act, if done by Hamas, would be enough for most pro-Israel posters to reattack Gaza.

Israel said it had destroyed about 60% of the tunnels—but already Wednesday there were signs they were back in action, adding urgency to Livni’s mission.

Looks like the efforts to destroy the tunnels failed. 23 days pounding and only 60% destroyed. Looks like they should have found another way to close the tunnels besides bombing. But you can't kill 1300 Gazans in 23 days if you don't bomb.

dead Palestinians at 1,284—with 894 of those civilians including 280 children or teenagers.

I'm sure glad that Israel's efforts to target Hamas leaders worked so well. Remember, they knew where they were attacking. Hamas members and Hamas leaders. Maybe they didn't know crap. Kinda like "We know where the WMD is." < :-)

adaydream at 07:36 AM JST - 22nd January

I am curious to know, & understand the foundation upon which you base your belief. Here are a group (Hamas) who have never been able to tell the truth about anything, who are celebrating a “victory” against Israel that killed at a ratio of 100 to 1. Yet you have consistently believed everything that has come out of Gasa over the last 27 days.

Nothing that I have read or seen convinces me that Hamas is anything but a dangerously deranged, though devious, terrorist group that have willing sacrificed their own children in the most cynical public relations exercise anybody has ever seen. Yet you & some others have fought so hard these last 3 weeks to defend everything about them & disparage everything possible about Israel. You have only the same news that we all have yet you see something so different to what most people see. What motivates your passionate defence of these people?

I watch with everybody else as Hamas worked so hard to bring about this war, firing rocket after rocket after warning after warning from Israel to stop of they would have to pay the price. This became the most predictable war that has ever taken place. Hamas created what should never have happened & it was obviously going to happen long before it did. It was orchestrated by Hamas & as such THEY brought about the deaths of their people. Somebody here called them “hobby rockets”, were they worth the lives lost? For the gullible that refuse to look too deeply at Hamas’ motives I’m sure the answer will be “yes”, but then they are still alive to say that, many in Gasa are not.

Winning little points on a Japanese site like this becomes empty against such a background. And yes, I have supported Israel throughout this & still do because the picture you chose to present was far too narrow, seeing only the underdog & seeing them as not being guilty of anything because they were the underdog. I have read so much here & else where these last weeks & been left amazed that so many people could not see that they were being manipulated in the most cruel & callous way. Could you, for ANY reason use the death of any child to further your aims?

Hamas did just that.

Somebody here called them “hobby rockets”, were they worth the lives lost?

That was me. And I called them supped up hobby rockets.

They were not worth the price in lives by my estimation. But then, I am not living in a walled up ghetto prison exclusively under the thumb of Israel.

And yes, I have supported Israel throughout this & still do because the picture you chose to present was far too narrow, seeing only the underdog & seeing them as not being guilty of anything because they were the underdog.

What I see is a walled up ghetto prison exclusively under the thumb of Israel. The situation is 40 years old and counting. If I am doing anything here I am chipping away at support for Israel, because I find it unfounded and biased for no good reason.

I don't like Hamas. But if Hamas is a monster, Israel is Dr. Frankenstein. Ever read the book? (the movies are not the same). It suits this situation really well. Israel created its own problems, and refuses to do anything constructive about it except for abortive efforts.

I have read so much here & else where these last weeks & been left amazed that so many people could not see that they were being manipulated in the most cruel & callous way.

I think this sentence is more properly applied to yourself.

i wonder if daydream can tell us how many Palestinians Hamas has executed over the last 12 months. Maybe daydream can also provide us unfeeling people the precautions Hamas takes in protecting Gazans as it launches its attacks on Israel. Can't find that information anywhere in the lamestream media.

i wonder if daydream can tell us how many Palestinians Hamas has executed over the last 12 months.

While asking such questions, always be sure to eliminate possible reasons, that way it all seems completely random.

Perhaps while adaydream is digging, you can tell us how many Free French executed other Frenchmen around the period of World War II, particularly after liberation?

Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing a “war crime” by using it in densely populated areas.

Its WAR. There are no rules. The winner punishes the loser and charges them with war crimes. That's how every war ends.

Israel is an abomination of inhumanity.

not true neverknow, in WAR there are rules, these rules are covered under the Law of Armed Conflict. The basic premise is to protect innocent loss of life and won ton destruction of property. The rules are clear that both sides do not conduct combat opertions against civilians and civilian targets. Both sides are also responsible for not not putting their civilians, hospitals, schools in harms way (ie using human shields or civilian structures to support combat operations). When that rule is violated, the side that puts their civilians in danger are in violation LOAC and is primarily responsible for civilian loss of life and damage to property.

Here are a group (Hamas) who have never been able to tell the truth about anything,

We do have countless documented cases of Israel caught lying. I am not saying Hamas are angles, but saying Hamas is not able to tell the truth is a bit... how should I say ... hard to believe.

The death toll and scale of the destruction in Gaza provoked international outrage, but in Israel, the war was widely seen as a legitimate response to militants’ attacks.

Seems Israel has been digging its own grave. "If there ever was a right for Israel to exist on land appropriated from other people without their consent, this right has now been eternally forfeited."

grafton,

Here are a group (Hamas) who have never been able to tell the truth about anything....

So are we to take it that when Khaled Mashaal says that Hamas will "never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land", he's either speaking tongue-in-cheek or telling porkers?

It's far to simple to say that Hamas never tells the truth and it's far to simple to say that Hamas worked hard to bring this war about. I think that, at least from Hamas's point of view, the war had already been thrust upon them.

you stopped short of saying if killing their own people was okay or not? Before you answer, keep in mind Hamas summarily executes people right in the street, sometimes in front of the family, sometimes the entire family. c'mon mr humanitarian set me straight.

I just hope that the world communities come togerther and work out a plan for all to exist. If you leave it up to the two of them, it'll never get done. < :-)

you stopped short of saying if killing their own people was okay or not? Before you answer, keep in mind Hamas summarily executes people right in the street, sometimes in front of the family, sometimes the entire family. c'mon mr humanitarian set me straight.

I sure did! I did not want to get you confused as to what goes on your own head! Would you kill a man if you thought he was collaborating with al-Quaida in the aftermath of 9-11? No? Would you if you thought you could get away with it?

No, I do not support summary executions, even of collaborators and spies. Anyone who does this is wrong. But I do not think that you oppose it near us much as you are trying to make us believe. I think if you were Gazan, you would not hesitate to kill the MF that works with the people who seal your borders, blockade your coastline, control your airspace, let food and fuel trickle in, and mortar your neighborhood, including schools and hospitals.

I do not condone it, but I sure understand the sentiment. I suspect that if you were in the same situation you would not only condone it, you would EXECUTE it.

I, for one, don't get too down on them because those people are oppressed. I do not like what they do, its hard to expect other behavior in their current situation, a situation with strings attached. And who is pulling those strings? ISRAEL.

what land? there was never a "palestinians nation"

Every piece of land that was owned by a Palestinian before being stolen and appropriated by Israelis. Whether Palestine was ever a real nation or not is totally irrelevant. Re-establishing Israel does not give the Israelis the right to just take a man's plot of land from him.

The Right of Return is about one thing only: Giving back to Palestinians what was stolen from them, every single individual plot of ground.

the Palestinians knew always one way:violence there was never diplomatic way on the palestinian side.

But the Israelis are happy to talk, since they have clear control over what they stole! Big surprise there!

A key goal of the offensive ... was destroying the hundreds of tunnels along the eight-mile border used to smuggle weapons into Gaza.

This conflict is not about tunnels or rockets. It seems this last attack had 2 main purposes:

To restore Israel's deterrence capacity (defined as the Arabs' fear of Israel), which suffered at the hands of Hezbolah twice (2000 & 2006).

The other reason is that Hamas was too moderate!!! Israel was not terrified of Hamas rockets but of Hamas' Peace Offensive. It seems they wanted to negotiate a lasting peace and the Israelis were terrified of this. supports his idea well.

"The Israeli military said it would investigate allegations by the United Nations and human rights groups that it wrongly used white phosphorous—an ingredient in weapons that inflicts horrific burns."

Oh, how comforting!

UN: "Excuse me, Israel, but you have committed war crimes and we demand answers!

Israel: Have we? I wasn't aware of such things. Of course, I cannot allow you to go in and verify as it's classified, but I'll tell you what... why don't you just go back to your office and we'll conduct an independent investigation as to our war crimes, n'kay? You know we're good for our word. Oh, and by the way, it wasn't us that shelled your school... it was... uhhh... Hamas! Yeah! We independently verified it. I have to go now, bye!

The Right of Return is about one thing only

And that's the destruction of Israel by flooding it with now 3rd and 4th generation "Palestinians", along with Egyptians and Jordanians that have nothing to with "Palestine". This is why Islamists and Socialists like to call for the "right of return". They both want Israel destroyed, though for different reasons of course. So much in common. The alliance continues.

Israel was not terrified of Hamas rockets but of Hamas' Peace Offensive.

Sabi, just when I think you can't possibly outdo yourself. LOL!

Israel was not terrified of Hamas rockets but of Hamas' Peace Offensive. Sabi, just when I think you can't possibly outdo yourself. LOL!

It does sound far fetched, doesn't it? After all, we've NEVER heard such a thing in the mainstream media. But Finkelstein explains this very well, and backs it up. Check it out. I posted some links before but the mod thought it was off topic!!!

The Right of Return is about one thing only And that's the destruction of Israel by flooding it with now 3rd and 4th generation "Palestinians", along with Egyptians and Jordanians that have nothing to with "Palestine".

The right of return is an unquestionable and internationally recognized right. If the outcome that you allege is so displeasing for you, why do you find it acceptable for Palestine to be destroyed, displacing the native population with people who do not have ANY ancestors from the region (most are not descendants of the Israelites. And the minority are descendants of the Israelites, well that is way more than 3-4 generations ago.

Some Palestinians wishing to return were born there, they still have the key to their home, from which they were kicked out.

If the Palestinians have a right to return, and before that the Jews had a right, didn't anyone think of what would happen when both Arabs and Jews called this the place to return to that it was going to get messy?

skipthesong: Nobody thought after what teh had suffered that them Jews would be so bloodthirsty and uncaring abouting spilling non Jewish blood, that is the problem mate.

If the Palestinians have a right to return, and before that the Jews had a right, didn't anyone think of what would happen when both Arabs and Jews called this the place to return to that it was going to get messy?

Most Jews (80-90%) are not descendants of the Israelites. Their ancestors have NEVER set foot in the region, they converted to judaism around 700AD, so they are not returning there.

Moderator: No history lessons please. Focus your comments on what is in the story.

Sabiwabi: This conflict is not about tunnels or rockets.

This conflict is about tunnels and rockets.

Anyway, Hamas seems to be pretty content with their victory. Let's just be happy for them.

"Anyway, Hamas seems to be pretty content with their victory. Let's just be happy for them."

Amazing isn't it.

It's like an able-bodied person turning up at the para-olympics, losing, and then claiming bias.

The United States has promised to supply detection and surveillance equipment, as well as logistical help and training to Israel, Egypt and others in the region.

... so that the Palestinians will be even more defenseless the next time Israel will want to show off its might. Was this promise made by the Bush admin or Obama's? Its quite amazing how the US continues to support Israel. Every year since 1989, the UN General Assembly has voted on resolutions regarding the peaceful settlement of the Palestinian question and every single year most of the world (>150 countries) voted for the resolution and the usual crowd voted against it (Israel, US, Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau).

It's like an able-bodied person turning up at the para-olympics, losing, and then claiming bias.

heh....

I've always liked how Hamas uses their destruction as both a sign of victimization and a sign of victory. I just wish they'd make up their minds.

Israel knew when they went into Gaza how long they'd be there. They knew that they had total support to kill at will from george bush. So they had to get their killing done in 23 days, before Obama was inaugurated. < :-)

SuperLib,

From the standpoint of Israel and its supporters, the conflict may be about tunnels and rockets. I think that from the standpoint of many Palestinians, the conflict is about land.

Personally buddy, I wished Israel had finished the job and erradicated Hamas.

...but once the conflict was started, I fail to see why they caved in.

What is promising, is the Hamas's failure to rally the crowds for a "victory" parade. I think the palestinians themselves, despite their hatred of Israel, are pissed with the Hamas.

That can only be good.

"They knew that they had total support to kill at will from george bush."

But z, they'll end up being provoked by the Hamas again and doing it with clandestine support from President Obama...

...what will your position be then?

You are so sure Hamas will do something. And I do understand what you are saying.

Madverts, what about the gangs or the Fatah militants, not Hamas, that are pissed and they go and purchase some rockets. Out of total hatred for the Iraelis who are intent to murder all Gazans, they fire rockets.

Immediately Hamas is blamed. Then Israel comes over with helicopters and fire numerous missiles that kill innocent civilians.

There's more to it then just Hamas wants to kill Israelis. That's why I have said consistantly that we have to have a world community resolution for the Middle East, especially to quell violence to or from Israel. < :-)

Z,

Hamas killed everyone from Fatah in the Gaza power struggle.

Madverts, do better than your last post. They're long from dead. < :-)

CFR didn't say they were dead. http://www.cfr.org/publication/13391/

Oct 2008 they weren't dead. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB549897.htm

And here's a time during the 6 month ceasefire that Hamas was commited to the cease fire while Fatah fired rockets into Egypt. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/26/content_8445026.htm

The Palestinians along with the HAMAS should give up the 'GAZA'. They ALL should leave! The war will never be finished until they leave. This way there is no suspicion, no anger, and no depletion of populations. They can go to Syria or Iran. Be done with it!

Every year since 1989, the UN General Assembly has voted on resolutions regarding the peaceful settlement of the Palestinian question

The simple reason is that there are still some people who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state, as you have often suggested...For some reason, the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.

The simple reason is that there are still some people who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state, as you have often suggested...For some reason, the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.

You seem to agree then that it is Israel that cannot make peace, because they always feel that someone will want to wipe them out. They feel that they MUST be the strongest ones there, and that all their neighbours MUST be weaker and afraid of Israel. This is very consistent with the point Finkelstein was making. That everyone must be afraid of Israel so that Israel can boss everyone around. Whenever someone makes a "Peace Offensive", agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, Israel gets scared and they get vicious. This happened in the 1980's with the PLO and its happening again now with Hamas.

As I have been saying for so long, it is clearly Israel who cannot make peace!****

The Palestinians along with the HAMAS should give up the 'GAZA'. They ALL should leave! The war will never be finished until they leave. This way there is no suspicion, no anger, and no depletion of populations. They can go to Syria or Iran. Be done with it!

But it still leaves Israel surrounded by hostiles. I know! How about Israelites leave! That would really make everything neat and clean! Those of German descent can go to Germany. Those of American descent can go to America! And so on... At least it is actually possible to trace quite a few Israelis back to somewhere else. Nobody can trace a Palestinian to anywhere but the areas IN and around Israel.

You seem to agree then that it is Israel that cannot make peace, because they always feel that someone will want to wipe them out.

I am not quite sure how you think it seem that I would agree with this since I have consistently said both Israel and Palestine need to agree to live side-by-side in peace. You wouldn't happen to be trying to twist my words, would you?

For your benefit, I will paraphrase what I wrote:

The simple reason is that there are still some people (for example: you) who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state. For some reason (I was being sarcastic here), the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.

You have suggested a number of times that Israel should cease to exist. That is what Hamas suggests and what many demanding 'peace' in the Middle East suggest. It is unrealistic to think Israel would agree to stop existing...

This is very consistent with the point Finkelstein was making. That everyone must be afraid of Israel so that Israel can boss everyone around.

Maybe I am the only one, but I have no idea who "Finkelstein" is, but Israel is hardly "bossing everyone in the Middle East around". They certainly are attempting to boss Hamas around.

By the way, could you point me in the direction of "someone making a "Peace Offensive" (not a truce, mind you), agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, and then Israel getting scared and getting vicious? I do know the Palestinians got scared, specifically Arafat, in 2000 and walked away from the table, never to return...then they got Sharon, which was horrible for all concerned...

This happened in the 1980's with the PLO and its happening again now with Hamas.

What happened specifically with the PLO? They agreed to recognize Israel and make peace in the 1980's?

As I have been saying for so long, **it is clearly Israel who cannot make peace!

As I and others have been saying, both sides bear a burden in the history. However, Hamas now bears a greater burden for only agreeing that they want to destory Israel...

Maybe I am the only one, but I have no idea who "Finkelstein" is,

You are probably the only one who doesn’t know [Norman] Finkelstein. I guess the Israeli foreign affairs’ information package that was sent to you did not include his stuff, and I understand why. He has a reputation of being an obsessive fact-checker. Look him up!

By the way, could you point me in the direction of "someone making a "Peace Offensive" (not a truce, mind you), agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, and then Israel getting scared and getting vicious?

Peace Offensive #1: In the mid-1970s the PLO began supporting a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The PLO, headquartered in Lebanon, was strictly adhering to a 1981 truce with Israel. In August 1981 Saudi Arabia unveiled, and the Arab League approved, a peace plan based on the two-state settlement. Arafat was contemplating a historic compromise.

Israeli visciousness #1: Fearing diplomatic pressures, Israel maneuvered to sabotage the two-state settlement and stepping up preparations to destroy the PLO. Israel conducted punitive military raids deliberately out of proportion against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians in order to weaken PLO moderates, strengthen the hand of Arafat's radical rivals, and guarantee the PLO's inflexibility.

To fend off Arafat's "peace offensive" Israel embarked on military action in June 1982. The Israeli invasion had been preceded by more than a year of effective ceasefire with the PLO, but after murderous Israeli provocations, the last of which left as many as 200 civilians dead (including 60 occupants of a Palestinian children's hospital), the PLO finally retaliated, causing a single Israeli casualty. Israel used the PLO's resumption of attacks as the pretext for its invasion.

Now does this sound familiar or what!!!!!! The exact same MO with Hamas. Hamas making a peace offensive and the Israelis react in the exact same way! Bloody murderers, pretending to want peace but that is the last thing they want.

I am assuming (correctly I hope) that since sabiwabi's post has been up and not removed for 4 hours that I am free to respond without my post being removed.

You are probably the only one who doesn’t know [Norman] Finkelstein.

You did not use his first name and most of the posts (I came in in the middle so I don't know if it was one or many) containing the references you say you attempted to link were not there. He is not a rock star and he has a first name. I assumed you were referring to some other poster...

While I have not read everything Mr. Finkelstein writes, there are some things about which he makes some good points. However, there are also some points which he is mistaken. Now on to you...

In the mid-1970s the PLO began supporting a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border.

Not quite true...In 1974, the PLO called for their own independent state in the "Palestinian Mandate". In addition, Fatah's leaders created a 10 point plan which called for the establishment of a national authority over any piece of liberated Palestinian land, and to actively pursue the establishment of a secular democratic binational (note: not two separate states)state in Israel/Palestine under which all citizens will enjoy equal status and rights regardless of race, sex, or religion. It actually sounds pretty good until you also note that the stated ultimate goal was the "liberation" of all Palestinian territory. In fact, this refrain was to be repeat by Arafat himself an interview as late as in 1988 when he stated the final goal was to get all of Palestine back (paraphrased as I don't have the text in front of me)

To fend off Arafat's "peace offensive" Israel embarked on military action in June 1982. The Israeli invasion had been preceded by more than a year of effective ceasefire with the PLO

Again, not quite true (this is connected to the previous paragraph as well so I didn't bother to quote that)...

Arafat felt the ceasefire only pertained to PLO attacks originating in Lebanon and as a result attacks from Jordan and the West Bank continued completely unabated. If and when Israel retaliated, it would be seen as technically breaking the ceasefire. However, as we can see the PLO did feel it had such rules against attacks from the West Bank and Jordan...So, yes there certainly are similarities with the present situation with Hamas. The PLO was using a loophole to break the ceasefire and Hamas uses real holes (tunnels) to break their ceasefires...In addition Hamas also states that their final goal is to take back all of Palestine. Now, I know you agree with this sentiment. However, it is not a 'two state solution' as you represent it.

Not quite true

= does not agree with what Israel wants you to believe.

In addition Hamas also states that their final goal is to take back all of Palestine

Try Googling "greater Israel" and you'll see Israel's final goal. The media doesn't mention this, but its clear what their goal has been.

I am assuming (correctly I hope) that since sabiwabi's post has been up and not removed for 4 hours

Why are you surprised that his post was not removed? I don't know if what he says is true, but he offers some interesting points not heard on the news. And Finklestein is highly respected, why don't we see him on the news instead of the usual clueless "experts". If what he says is true, it would explain a lot.

'Jack',

'Not quite true' means not quite true. If you feel I am mistaken, how about directly addressing what I wrote? You don't seem to be strong on informative posting. What I wrote represents the truth.

Your suggesting of Googling so that I can find opinion sites that match what you think people should think are of less value that talking about the facts.

Lastly, I was just making sure I could post. I was not saying what sabiwabi wrote should be removed...

'Not quite true' means not quite true....What I wrote represents the truth.

Jack, one thing you should realize is that everything kinniku writes are facts and truths. He knows EVERYTHING about Israel-related conflicts, but somehow did not know who Finkelstein was....

I guess he does get his information from only one side.

sabiwabi,

Are there some questions about what I wrote that you have? I gave you specific answers and responses. It seems you don't have any real response, except for what you have just written above. This can only lead to the logical conclusion that you have no counter-argument.

I make an attempt to see both sides of the discussion and I make an attempt to make my opinions clear. If you feel something is unclear or incorrect, you should specifically speak to that...I would be happy to clarify what I wrote.