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Israeli military destroy Gaza tunnels

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By IBRAHIM BARZAK and IAN DEITCH

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"Palestinian gunmen disguised in Israeli uniforms managed to infiltrate Israel from Gaza using another tunnel"

Sneaky.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Unbelievable! Thank God they got rid of those tunnels, hope they got all of them. This time the IDF will scrutinize every single once of their dwellings to make sure the threat from Hamas it completely neutralized.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Time to hunt that rats down and terminated them

3 ( +7 / -4 )

How many more young friends, relatives and neighbors radicalized by the children's deaths?

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Once upon a time, almost any news by AP sources (The Associated Press) was from journalists whose objectivity could be deemed reliable for the most part because they were daring eyewitnesses. Their stories were fact driven highly specific coverage of discrete events and thus appealed to media outlets which could not afford to have their own agents on assignment. When I read journalism like the piece here and see the (AP) brand stamp on it I can't help rolling my eyes.This is not an eyewitness account. It is a carefully crafted piece of in-house reporting without a single scrap of first person observation by either of the writers. In other words it is coverage engineered to guide opinion not to enlighten. Bad journalism bad science - same thing. So called balanced reporting (which is how this type of piece is described by editorial managers today) is not objective reporting. Never has been never will be (cannot be). It is principally weighted bias masquerading as news targeting audiences who are mostly blind to the difference and lack alternative means to stay informed. In this piece, the crafted interspersion of inapt historical references, the mixed handling of indirect and direct quotes and the conclusionary editorial commentary on international viewpoints would have Edward R. Murrow turning his back and walking out to the nearest woods for some fresh air. It is in a word: vulgar.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The tunnels were of little use militarily (if at all) and was not the hideous progrom that Israel launched on Gaza. Most of the dead were civilians, including a swath of children. As Israel conducted its rape of Gaza there were barely a peep from the leaders of the supposedly advanced countries. France's so-called Socialist government banned pro-Palestinian rallies in Paris. Obama, which going after Russia on dubious grounds, has make a limp response to this crime against humanity: in effect do it but not too much.

On her deathbed the singer Édith Piaf said, "Every damn fool thing you do in this life, you pay for." The rape of Gaza is just one of the damn fool things that Israel has done against the Palestinian people and some day Israel, namely its people and not its leader, will suffer for this.

In a Ha'aretz interview a former Israeli foreign minister said that there are worse things than Hamas waiting around the corner, namely ISIS.

If ever a place needed a squadron of Martin Luther Kings and Nelson Mandelas it is this place.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

If ever a place needed a squadron of Martin Luther Kings it is this place.

Well said. He promoted the position of non-violent resistance. The strange thing is that most people agree with this principal, except when you bring the Palestinians into the fold. Then it turns into, "Of course these people try to murder children."

8 ( +8 / -0 )

I have'nt been keeping track recently but can anyone tell me the current exchange rate for 1 Israeli life to that of a Palestinian??? I assume its some thing like 1 to 20 or even more..... Gaza is the worlds largest open space prison where the 'guards' run amok as they please ....

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Heh, now the Israel lobby in America - which counts pretty much every conservative politician in the land - finds themselves in a bit of a quandary.  The nation state they blindly supported due to a few lines in the Bible has now shown its true colors: baby killers and ruthless invaders.

Good luck with supporting Israel now! 

Obama was right all along to keep Israel at arm's length.  Looks like the conservatives have screwed up.

Again. 

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

The tunnels were of little use militarily (if at all)

What about the 2 Israelis who were killed yesterday by Hamas terrorists who infiltrated Israel via a tunnel in central Gaza? The terrorists were dressed in IDF uniforms and were armed with automatic weapons, rocket-propelled grenades, syringes, sedatives and handcuffs – apparently to be used in taking hostages. Doesn't sound like they were going shopping.

Israel's put up with these attacks for long enough. Time to get rid of the tunnels and the terrorists once and for all. Hamas is killing not only Israelis (numbers may be low but it's not for lack of intent or effort) but also the Palestinians in Gaza.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Japonaise, what about the fact that Gazans are being hit by shells fired from ships, attacked by planes, and invaded by the Israeli army tanks - all of which Gazans have none of???

It's not even close to a fair fight - it's outright murder and US conservatives now have serious blood on their hands. 

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

It's not even close to a fair fight

I agree. On one side you have Hamas, an internationally recognised terrorist group, who openly and proudly declare that their goal is the total destruction of Israel and Jews in general, who hide their leaders deep underground or in Qatar, and who use Gazans as human shields by placing their rocket launchers in schools, hospitals and mosques, and who instruct their citizens not to vacate these places, knowing full well it will result in innocent deaths, but then go running to the media with photos of dead Palestinians, whining to the world that it's "unfair". Then there is Israel, who would not be firing even one shot into Gaza if it weren't for the thousands of rockets fired indiscriminately from there for years. Unlike Hamas, they do not purposely target civilians and they do more than any other army in the history of war to keep innocent deaths to a minimum. All these cries of "murder" and "genocide" are just risible. If Israel truly wanted to murder innocent Palestinians they could do it in a flash. But they don't. Israel has done more to help the ordinary Palestinian than any leader of Hamas has ever done. If you speak to Palestinians in Israel, they will tell you again and again that they would much rather live there under Israeli rule than in any Arab country in the region.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

"I have'nt been keeping track recently but can anyone tell me the current exchange rate for 1 Israeli life to that of a Palestinian??? I assume its some thing like 1 to 20 or even more..... "

You would think the Palestinians would consider this and get rid of Hamas to stop this....

"It's not even close to a fair fight"

If it were closer to a fair fight, way more Israelis would be dead. Would that be better, SushiSake3?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I did not read the article except for the few lines at the beginning which confirmed me that this article is completely biased... I was much more interested on the comments and as excepted there are the usual low level pro-Israel comments that are found everywhere on Internet: 1/ "it's the Hamas that kill the Palestinians, not Israel" -> hem... I don't even now how to answer this absurdity 2/ "we are defending ourselves from the Hamas" -> a great parts of Palestine is occupied by Israel which do not respect borders defined by the UN and until recently terrorists rockets only touched occupied territories (it now has changed); so tell me, how can you defend an occupied territory?

So let's be honest with each other: it's just the continuation of the invasion that's it. Let's not try to find any excuse from one side or from the other. There is an invader and an invaded. And as history has already shown us so many times: the good guys are the one who wins.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Nizinjapan

I just re-read the few lines at the beginning and am not sure which part confirmed it for you that the article is completely biased.

And why are pro-Israel comments "low level"? What would a high level comment look like?

Hamas is indeed killing Palestinians by using them as human shields. Hamas has admitted as much. And yes, Israel IS defending itself and its people from Hamas. Thousands of rockets fired by Hamas at civilians in Israel over the last few years - how would you have Israel respond to that? It's a shame Hamas doesn't put as much time, money and effort into improving the lives of Gazans as it does in trying to end the lives of Israelis.

Israel does not occupy Gaza and hasn't done since 2005.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Japonaise 1/ I am not speaking about any occupation if Gaza. I am speaking about the occupation of most if the remaining Palestinian territory as defined by the UN resolution. 2/ I am defining comments as "low level" when someone try to justify something that do not need any justification (or when not justifiable according to international regulation and bit according to mass media misconcept). As I said the good guy is the winner. 3/ Last post from my side on this topic as no discussion is possible when people are pros and cons (only possible when people are open to discussion). Which is actually the same between Israel government and Palestine government (with one wanting the application of the UN resolutions and one refusing... Guess who is who).

Good night.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

As I said the good guy is the winner

I am sorry if I misunderstood you. Yes, let's hope that Israel will indeed emerge as the winner, thus making life better for both Israelis and Palestinians.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

including a swath of children

Well if you look at the data presented by Al Jazeera, less than 20% were under 18 years old while the population of Gaza under 18 is close to 50% and 53% of the population is male while almost 82% of those killed are male. If Israel was being so indiscriminate about things you would expect the numbers killed to be closer to the actual breakdown of the population. And the claims of most of the dead being civilians comes from the Palestinians themselves, not like they don't have a reason to lie.

France's so-called Socialist government banned pro-Palestinian rallies in Paris.

No they didn't. They banned one specific rally. As is fairly normal just about everywhere, each proposed rally is considered individually for safety and security issues.

there are worse things than Hamas waiting around the corner, namely ISIS.

So because ISIS is worse than Hamas means that Hamas should be ignored? If I have two disease should I ignore the less dangerous one and just treat the worse one?

It's not even close to a fair fight

War isn't about a fair fight. Never has been, never will be. Each side uses the resources they have. If one side is severely deficit in equipment, then maybe they shouldn't provoke an attack.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Right, the tunnels were useful yesterday when the Israelis invaded. The invaders took two casualties. Had there been no invasion the two Israelis would still be alive, along with over 300 Palestinians.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Bibi, like any extremist, is terrified by the possibility of peace. Here's an insight from Idan Landau, translated from the original Hebrew:

what is the reason that the Israeli policy is so totally enslaved to its anxiety over Palestinian unity? The answer is not complicated. It can be summed up in the single sentence: We should ensure there is no partner. We should ensure there is no partner, for if a Palestinian partner exists, there is someone with whom we can negotiate a peace agreement, which requires the most dreadful thing of all: giving up land and control

http://972mag.com/the-unfolding-lie-of-operation-protective-edge/93605/

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Well said. He promoted the position of non-violent resistance. The strange thing is that most people agree with this principal, except when you bring the Palestinians into the fold. Then it turns into, "Of course these people try to murder children."

I was personally more of a follower of Malcom X.

Heh, now the Israel lobby in America - which counts pretty much every conservative politician in the land - finds themselves in a bit of a quandary. The nation state they blindly supported due to a few lines in the Bible has now shown its true colors: baby killers and ruthless invaders. Good luck with supporting Israel now! Obama was right all along to keep Israel at arm's length. Looks like the conservatives have screwed up. Again.

As usual you have NO idea what you are talking about. What you said was very insulting. Do you think ONLY conservatives support Israel? Democrats like Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Carl Levin and that's just a minuscule of Dems that support Israel, their right to exist and ARE NOT pleased that the Israel has NOT done more to back up its biggest ally in the Middle East. Israel has shown great restraint, if they wanted to, they could have completely annihilated the entire Gaza, but instead, they are surgically going through and rooting out all these terrorist facilities of any and all rockets and weapons that could harm the Israeli people.

It's not even close to a fair fight - it's outright murder and US conservatives now have serious blood on their hands.

Hamas doesn't care about their own people, they just want to do anything and everything to kill Israelis bottom line! Also there is no such thing as a fair fight. No one told Hamas to hide amongst their women and children, putting these rockets in schools and Mosques and NO one told them to fire them at the Israelis. They chose to fire the rockets, here we are now, this is all Hamas fault. If you want to condemn anyone, it should be them, they are the group that have blood on their hands, this is NOT a conservative issue.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Right, the tunnels were useful yesterday when the Israelis invaded. The invaders took two casualties. Had there been no invasion the two Israelis would still be alive, along with over 300 Palestinians.

Right, the tunnels weren't used before the ground invasion. I mean the 13 Hamas infiltrators using a tunnel before ground operations were just fake, right? Previous infiltrations leading to Israeli civilian deaths and the kidnapping of Israeli military personnel and civilians never happened either, right?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

There are other voices reporting on this from Jerusalem

How about voices where more rockets have fallen, or don't they count?

For the Abulbul family, shelter is an underground concrete bunker. They share this single room with all the neighborhood families, 30 or 40 people in total. There's no plumbing or air conditioning, and the shelter is sweltering. Ofra Abulbul says her children refuse to go outside. "My kids are very anxious," she says. "They won't go home to sleep, or shower, or eat. The toilet doesn't work here, so every time we have to go home to use the bathroom they're terrified." Her 10-year-old son is named Nehorai. "Things are not OK," he says. "I'm scared." A little dog named Bony is running around his feet. "He also has anxieties," the boy says. The children have nothing to do here. They lie on the concrete floor and stare at the ceiling, or when they feel hyper, they jump on a mattress until they're exhausted. When he's scared, does he ever think that kids in Gaza might also feel scared? Nehorai says yes. "My mother told me there were sirens there, too," he says. "And those kids also have to run away."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/07/09/330183767/on-opposite-sides-of-israeli-gaza-border-feeling-the-same-fears

The people in Gaza have it much, much worse. If that there is no doubt. However, I see no reason for you to attempt to belittle the honest fears that Israelis have, too. Actually, upon reading your recent posts, I do see a reason, you are attempting very unsuccessfully to claim that Israel does not have a right to exist. You are wrong.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The people in Gaza have it much, much worse. If that there is no doubt. However, I see no reason for you to attempt to belittle the honest fears that Israelis have, too. Actually, upon reading your recent posts, I do see a reason, you are attempting very unsuccessfully to claim that Israel does not have a right to exist. You are wrong.

I too was getting the same exact feeling. Even the majority of the Israelis are NOT happy that they have to go to war, when most want peace, but the fundamental problem is Hamas, you get rid of them or diminish their capabilities to attack the Israelis or their desire to rage a war, then you can talk about peace.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Even the majority of the Israelis are NOT happy that they have to go to war, when most want peace

The exact same thing could be said of the majority of ordinary German citizens under the Third Reich. They didn't want to know about the crimes that were being committed in their name. But every "threat" was put to them as existential -- just as it is applied to the Jews of Israel today.

but the fundamental problem is Hamas

No. Hamas is a symptom of the fundamental problem. Until you can articulate the fundamental problem, you're either going to have to deal with symptom after symptom, or try to take a shortcut via a "final solution." Not everyone is going to capitulate in the face of tyranny, whether it be German or Zionist.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

The exact same thing could be said of the majority of ordinary German citizens under the Third Reich. They didn't want to know about the crimes that were being committed in their name.

Bad analogy. Germans knew exactly how their government felt about Jews and saw the actions of their government. The Nazis did not want peace with the Jews, the wanted them dead.

Israel has traded land for peace with its neighbors and made peace with them. Israel has attempted to negotiate with the Palestinians. Israel left the Gaza strip in 2005 and Palestinians could travel freely into Egypt for the first time, including when Egypt held the Gaza Strip.

No. Hamas is a symptom of the fundamental problem.

Yes, the problem is that the Palestinians have no leaders that actually want to negotiate for a two state solution with land for peace. This is particularly true of Hamas.

Until you can articulate the fundamental problem

I can articulate the problem just fine. The Palestinians do not yet have leaders up to the real challenge of making peace and getting the country the Palestinians have been waiting for. They do not have the luxury you have of sitting behind a computer suggesting they should just keep waiting and not negotiating.

Not everyone is going to capitulate in the face of tyranny, whether it be German or Zionist.

The Zionist tyranny is all in your head. The year is 2014. Israel has said many times, this prime minister has said that he is for a peaceful two state solution. Yet, there are no Palestinian leaders willing to negotiate. Rockets bring death. They will not bring peace to the Palestinians.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

the wanted them dead.

They wanted them eliminated. It's an important choice of words because it's exactly what the Zionists want of anyone who would dare challenge their self-granted right to dominate Palestine.

The Zionist tyranny is all in your head.

It is being played out for the world to see in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza on a daily basis.

The Truth is what will liberate. People have to clear their minds of propaganda and be free. And the Zionists have been masters at propaganda for over a century now. No wonder most originated in Germany.

Note the argument about Gaza that if the Israelis really wanted to they could wipe out the Gaza in no time. If you want to bring up the Warsaw Ghetto, the exact same thing could be said about that. Did the Nazis not wiping them out all at once prove they were moral and humane?

They do not have the luxury you have of sitting behind a computer suggesting they should just keep waiting and not negotiating.

When Palestinian Arabs discover the best weapon they have against the Zionists is the Torah, Zionist Israel will start to fold like an accordion. That is the real morality of the Jewish people..

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Hamas is a symptom of the fundamental problem.

No, Hamas IS the fundamental problem. Hamas is simply following through on its Charter’s declaration that “’Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”

Its political chief, Khaled Meshal, commenting on ceasefire proposals said in a televised speech: “We receive calls from mediators from Arab and Western sides to broker a ceasefire. We say to those who ask us for a lull: Go back!”

Hamas also put out a video promising: “Zionists, wait and see stabbing attacks everywhere. Wait for suicide attacks on every bus, café and street.”

I think Hamas is quite clear about what it wants. Israel cannot, should not and will not sit back and let them carry out these promises. Too bad the Palestinians don't have a government like Israel's, looking out for them.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

japonaise,

Let's leave Hamas aside for one moment. Let's also ignore Fatah and any other political or paramilitary group.

What are Palestinians' grievances vis-a-vis Israel?

I'm curious to learn from you as an expert.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Let's leave Hamas aside for one moment.

I wish we could but Hamas is the cause of Palestinian people's hardship. Along with most of the Arab world who have used and abused them for decades. They could have had their own state a long time ago and peace with Israel, but that is not what their leaders want. It's really not complicated.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

japonaise,

No ifs, ands or buts, please. It's a simple question.

Leaving Hamas, Fatah or any other political or paramilitary group aside for one moment.

What are Palestinians' grievances vis-a-vis Israel?

Thank you

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The Palestinians want peace, jobs, education, freedom of speech, an open society, equality for women. The things we take for granted.

It is not Israel that is preventing all this. It is the Palestinian leaders.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

They wanted them eliminated. It's an important choice of words because it's exactly what the Zionists want of anyone who would dare challenge their self-granted right to dominate Palestine.

No. While there are definitely some extremists who could aptly be compared to the US's KKK, the vast majority of Israelis, want peace with the Palestinians. You easily forget what you are taught, but Rabin was killed for his beliefs of peace between Israel and the Palestinians and he was a Zionist. A Zionist merely means the person supports Israel's right to exist. You are attempting to give another meaning to the word Zionist, but your meaning is wrong.

You claim Israel (they are Israelis and the country is called Israel, not Zionists and Zion) wants "all of Palestine", however again you seem to ignore the reality that Israel has never annexed the West Bank and Gaza. Yes, they have annexed Jerusalem and that will be a topic of negotiations. However, in the 2000 negotiations, the two sides were extremely closed to making a deal when the Palestinians suddenly up and left the negotiations never to return in any real way since.

It is being played out for the world to see in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza on a daily basis.

What is happening in the occupied territories is a direct result of the Palestinians refusing to negotiate for peace. There will be absolutely no settlements in the future Palestinian state. How do I know? Because when Israel left the Sinai and when they left Gaza, they dragged the settlers and their settlements out, too.

If you truly want what is happening in the occupied territories to stop, negotiations are the only way to do this. It has been the refusing to continue what was started in 2000, that has given the Palestinians 14 more years of misery.

The Truth is what will liberate.

I agree. The truth is the Palestinians must negotiate for peace.

And the Zionists have been masters at propaganda for over a century now.

? In 1948, the Palestinian Jews supported partition, the Palestinian Arabs were against it. From 1948 to, Jordan and Egypt held land that should have been given to the Palestinians. There was never any discussion anywhere in the world about giving that land to the Palestinians...until 1967.

Negotiations are the only way. Peace is the only way. That is no propaganda, that is reality.

Note the argument about Gaza

No, thank you. It is not my argument, so there is no reason to "note" it. However, the Nazis goals were very clearly to kill Jews, they created camps to do so. Israel has stated clearly that it is for a two state peaceful solution. There is no comparison.

When Palestinian Arabs discover the best weapon they have against the Zionists is the Torah, Zionist Israel will start to fold like an accordion.

Most of the Jews in Israel are secular. Most of the Jews in Israel believe in peace with the Palestinians. You keep talking about the Torah. It is an ancient book with ancient ideas, such as slavery, and should not be taken literally in this day and age. Common sense and negotiations are the only way of salvation for both sides.

That is the real morality of the Jewish people..

Morality is a sense of right and wrong, it is not necessarily attached to religion. Most Israelis would like to see peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

japonaise,

Spin, deflection and evasion are the enemies of conflict resolution.

The failure to acknowledge Palestinians' genuine grievances against Israel screams an unwillingness to make peace.

Are shalom and salaam really so mutually exclusive?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Are shalom and salaam really so mutually exclusive?

Not at all. Both peoples want and deserve peace and a decent life. If you do not agree that the main cause of suffering in Gaza is due to its leadership, please tell me what is. Before 2005 I would have said that Palestinians in Gaza want the Israelis out. But the Israelis got out. Instead of life improving for Gazans after that, it actually got worse. Sorry but that was not Israel's doing.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

japonaise,

I'm encouraged that shalom and salaam are more than mere abstractions for peoples who use them in everyday greetings.

As someone who grew up in a conflict zone, however, I'm also dismayed at an inability to acknowledge a demographic's genuine grievances by someone claiming to be a stakeholder - no matter who distant - in the resolution of this conflict.

How about this little factoid to get us out of our current rut:

Speaking bluntly in the past three weeks, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu has unequivocally ruled out a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In a speech at Tel Aviv University on June 29, Netanyahu announced that any peace agreement would include Israeli military control of the West Bank “for a very long time.”

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/07/19/netanyahus-escalation-bibis-two-state-rebuke-violence/

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

He wasn’t saying that he doesn’t support a two-state solution. He was saying that it’s impossible.

If you look at what happened when Israel left Gaza, you have to admit he has a point. His job is to ensure the security of his citizens. He wants ongoing Israeli security oversight inside and at the borders of the West Bank. The Palestinian leadership has done NOTHING to show it's serious about peace. Israel will not risk 20 Gazas.

I'll ask again, what do you want Israel to do and what do you want the Palestinian leaders to do?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

japonaise,

(Netanyahu) wants ongoing Israeli security oversight inside and at the borders of the West Bank.

To protect those occupying stolen land?

The Palestinian leadership has done NOTHING to show it's serious about peace.

To understand the danger of Netanyahu’s dismissal of the two-state solution, consider that even before the three Israeli teenagers kidnapped and killed last month were confirmed dead, Israel Defense Forces Spokesman Lt. Colonel Peter Lerner described the kidnapping as “the most substantial terrorist attack in Judea and Samaria [the West Bank] in recent years.” As tragic and unacceptable as the kidnapping is, its status as the most severe incident of Palestinian violence indicates how earnestly Palestinian political leaders and the general public have embraced non-violence, even in the face of a grinding military occupation now in its fifth decade.

http://www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/07/19/netanyahus-escalation-bibis-two-state-rebuke-violence/

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

SenseNotSoCommon,

Thank you for the links. Netanyahu's recent comments are reckless and competely unhelpful to the process. He deserved to lose in the next election for this. A peaceful two state solution is the only answer to the situation and if Netanyahu cannot see this, he should be voted out.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

A Zionist merely means the person supports Israel's right to exist.

Readers should investigate this and be clear on its meaning. With this issue, it is an extremely important term, and it must be defined as historically accurately as possible. The above definition can't possibly be right because many around the world support a Jewish homeland in principle, but could not be called Zionists.

The Zionist is someone who believes that all of the area called Palestine was given by G-d to the Israelites several thousand years ago and therefore all of it is the rightful Jewish homeland. They believe that any Jew in the world has a right to settle in any part of Palestine, and that Palestine --the Jewish homeland -- is indivisible. (This is why there is little to no private property in Israel. The government owns around 95% of all land and the citizens lease it from the government.)

One other thing is imperative to the Zionist cause: Once land is brought under Jewish control, it may not be given up for any reason. A person who does so is a traitor to the Zionist cause, even though they may have called themselves a Zionist in the past. Which brings us back to Gaza.

Israel will take complete control of Gaza again, as they controlled it at one time and it was part of the ancient Jewish homeland. The strategy has been to make life so hellish for the Arab inhabitants that they will either leave or be driven to greater and greater incentive to commit violence. In response, the Zionist state will be driven more to the hard-line Zionist direction.

When people speak of the time when Israel handed Gaza over, they seem to think that the people of Gaza were free to develop it as anything they wanted, completely ignoring the severe restrictions of movement (similar to apartheid pass laws) and the economic sanctions placed on it by Israel.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Sorry but people can't just define words anyway they want. Words have actual meanings whether someone likes it or not.

And there are as many different kinds of Zionists as there are different kinds of Christians or different kinds of agnostics.

Zionists do not all believe that all of the area called Palestine was given to the Israelites or that all of the area is the rightful Jewish homeland. They do not all believe that any Jew in the world has a right to settle in any part of Palestine or that Palestine is indivisible.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Sorry but people can't just define words anyway they want. Words have actual meanings whether someone likes it or not.

When defining a word, it is best to start with its original meaning. What the world calls "Zionism" didn't exist until the last part of the 19th century. The founders of the term wrote down and agreed upon what they believed, their ideals, and what they were aiming for.. I contend that this is "Zionism" in its purest, original meaning.

When the term was coined, it most certainly did apply to the ideal that all of Palestine was the Jewish homeland and that any Jew had a right to settle in any part of it. Nobody in the group that called themselves Zionist disagreed with that.

And there are as many different kinds of Zionists as there are different kinds of Christians or different kinds of agnostics.

That would be polluting the meaning of the original word. A person can call themselves anything they want. That doesn't necessarily make them one. The purpose for adding the pollution to the term is to help obfuscate its original, truest meaning -- the one understood by the major decision-makers.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Kabukilover:

" The tunnels were of little use militarily (if at all) and was not the hideous progrom that Israel launched on Gaza. "

The tunnels are of great use for Hamas terrorists to kill or kidnap Israeli civilians. If you call the Hamas militants "military" is up to you. And Israels belated reaction to thousands of rockets from Hamas is not "hideos pogrom" in any matter, shape or form.

You keep on shouting anti-Israel slogans, but you have not explained what Israel should to, in your mind. Sit still and allow its towns to be bombarded by Hamas rocket fire indefinitely? Is that it?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

but you have not explained what Israel should to

Everyone points to the point in Hamas's charter calling for the destruction of the Zionist entity. But almost no one points to the Zionist charter which means effective destruction of Palestinian Arab lives and rights.

Here is what Israel must do, and it won't cost them a bit of their own land or a single bullet:

1) Acknowledge the original Zionist plan called for a Jewish state in all of Palestine, from the Sinai to the Litani River in Lebanon, and from the Mediterranean Sea to lands which are east of the Jordan River. Acknowledge that the original principle and aim of Zionism was for any Jew to be able to settle anywhere within Palestine.

2) Go on record as rejecting, renouncing and disavowing -- once and for all time -- the concept of a unitary Palestine as a Jewish state, and the right of any Jew to settle within lands not granted to Israel in the 1948 partition plan. Re-affirm the 1948 partition as the true and only borders of the state of Israel.

If #1 is not the Zionists' current aim, then it won't cost them a thing to acknowledge and disavow it. But they will never, ever do so in any official way because it would signal the end of the Zionist dream.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Yabits:

The Israeli government is on record supporting a 2-state solution. In what matter, shape or form would re-stating that (to who, anyway), stop the terrorism emanating from Hamas?

In other words: you have no solution.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The Israeli government is on record supporting a 2-state solution

Netanyahu just made remarks opposing a 2-state solution. So it's obviously not a fundamental article of faith that anyone can count on -- unlike the Zionist ideal.

In what matter, shape or form would re-stating that (to who, anyway)

For starters, have Israel's UN ambassador issue Israel's official renunciation of Zionism's original charter, and acceptance of the 1948 borders as its only legitimate ones in front of the General Assembly at the U.N. That's a speech every Arab nation will attend.

[how does that] stop the terrorism emanating from Hamas?

Even if there was one chance in a thousand that Hamas would respond positively, it is worth taking. After all, this proclamation costs Israel nothing, if that is, they are no longer committed to the original aims of Zionism, and they are truly committed to peace. Yes, Israel, declare that the 1948 borders are your official borders.

(For attempting to destroy the lives of so many Palestinians who are not Jewish, the Zionists deserved Hamas.)

The game has been a good one, but the Zionists, like the Afrikaners, are on the wrong side of history.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

But almost no one points to the Zionist charter

Well then point to this Zionist charter you speak of and show us where it calls for the elimination of the Palestinians. Then show us that it has anything to do with the actions of the current government of Israel.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Well then point to this Zionist charter you speak of and show us where it calls for the elimination of the Palestinians.

Someone may have to draw you a picture. You might get it faster if you could imagine that you grew up in Palestine around 1910, and that your family and kinsmen all lived in the area for hundreds of years as part of the (90%) majority population. In Europe at that time a plan was underway that was going to eliminate you and your family from your land. Many of your family and friends would be killed, and wherever you ended up, good luck to you.

The charter mentions a Jewish homeland, and the individuals that led the way basically declared Palestine as being that homeland. (The lie comes in the word "return." This is a lie because the Jews of Europe had no provable connection to the Hebrews who left the area 2000 years before.) The map they drew up and presented in 1919 left no doubt as to their view that all of Palestine was for Jews. The charter makes no mention of the 90% majority population whatsoever. (But you seriously don't believe that there wasn't a good understanding of what had to happen, do you? Once you see that evidence, it's clear to see how the overall charter meant the elimination of Palestinian Arabs from the Jewish homeland -- without saying so explicitly.)

Hamas, by contrast, is too honest and up front with its aims. But I can understand how Hamas wouldn't want to emulate the deviousness and self-deception of its foes.

And so here is where you need to connect two dots, and it's so much easier to do if you're the one who is going to get screwed: The Zionists were aware that they couldn't achieve the aims of the charter in a land where they were outnumbered 9 to 1. So two things had to happen: 1) Immigration, as much and as soon as possible; and 2) Actively working to displace as many Arab Palestinians from their lands as possible. (The founding documents speak of the obligation of the Zionist to immigrate to Israel.)

From Day 1 to the current government, that is the plan that has been working out: often 2 steps forward and 1 step backwards. But that is the plan. It has best been achieved by committing acts which provoke the Arab population and then retaliating after they've taken the bait. The provocations have usually been carried out by extremists so that the government can maintain the illusion of deniability while sending the military in to clean up and reap the spoils. Now, the new immigrants have a place to "settle."

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

yabits, I kindly asked you to point out this charter you keep referring to. Since you refuse to do so I will assume it doesn't exist, otherwise you could easily win your case. Sorry but your whining screed is not evidence of anything, as the many 'bad' votes your comment recieved amply indicates.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Since you refuse to do so I will assume it doesn't exist, otherwise you could easily win your case.

Thank you for the laugh.

Can't connect dots or grasp a clear picture? Any of the Jewish faith will tell you that a covenant or charter is not a matter of words alone, but of actions. And that what is not written can be even more significant than what is. But here are some words that will help others understand the Zionist charter -- a homeland for Jews in all of Palestine -- in practice:

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country." (To Nahum Goldman, the originator of the term "Zionism.")

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985. [charter in practice]

The question is: would we obtain more without partition? If things were to remain as they are, would this satisfy our feelings? What we really want is not that the land remain whole and unified. What we want is that the whole and unified land be Jewish. A unified Eretz Israeli would be no source of satisfaction for me– if it were Arab." (Ben Gurion -- letters, 1937) [[charter in practice]
-10 ( +0 / -10 )

">To Nahum Goldman, the originator of the term "Zionism."

No actual the originator was Nathan Birnbaum 5 years before Goldman was even born.

And if this 'Zionist charter' isn't written down, then all you are giving is one interpretation of what Zionism is. And quotes from decades after Zionism was founded runs into the problem that by that time there were diverse and often contradictory 'Zionist' groups. So cherry picking quotes and actions that support a claims proves less than nothing as quotes and actions that show the exact opposite can also be found.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

No actual the originator was Nathan Birnbaum 5 years before Goldman was even born.

Mea culpa, and I appreciate the correction.

Regarding the charter of Zionist Israel, Jews refer to it often as shorthand for what i have tried to describe. Here's a native-born Israeli -- a mental health professional -- and her description of it.

"The ethnic cleansing of Palestine started in 1948 behind the smokescreen of war, but it was not completed. It is not only continuing today but Israeli scholars like Ilan Pappe believe that it is escalating. Zionist ideology is directly responsible for the charter of present day Israel. Attempting to understand the dynamic of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict or to analyse Israel’s behaviour without understanding this charter is bound to be flawed, and to lead to more confusion and misunderstanding.

"Since the foundational belief is that Jewish people can only be safe in an exclusively Jewish state, Israel’s charter is simple. Israel is required to maintain itself as a safe haven for all Jewish people."

"The development of the state of Israel and Israel’s behaviour in the region have always been consistent with its charter. Israel sees that it would need as much land and natural resources as possible (such as water, which is scarce in the region), in order to accommodate the 13 millions Jews who are expected to flock to it from around the world, ‘when’ a new era of Jewish persecution begins. Israel would have to have enough housing, infrastructure and a functional economy. It would have to be a modern state in which Western Jews accustomed to technology, capitalism and affluence can feel comfortable. There is nothing inconsistent or strange in what Israel is doing to the Palestinians if you understand this charter. It surprises me that this is never discussed openly in any political analysis that I see."

http://www.avigailabarbanel.me.uk/charter.html

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

and her description of it.

And again a quote from the opinion of one person decades after the start of Zionism. Claims that her opinion represents everyone and that it represents the original charter are absurd. Especially when she is talking about;

the charter of present day Israel.

And not talking about the original Zionist charter (which would predate ANY charter of Israel by 50 years or more). A copy and paste of multiple pages of her opinion still would not have anything to do with claims about the original charter of Zionism.

The map they drew up and presented in 1919 left no doubt as to their view that all of Palestine was for Jews.

And just who drew up and presented this map? Because in 1917 the New York Tribune seems to have beat them by 2 years.

The charter makes no mention of the 90% majority population whatsoever.

The charter that isn't written anywhere and the 90% majority that didn't exists. In 1914 Muslims barely made up 75%.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The charter that isn't written anywhere and the 90% majority that didn't exists. In 1914 Muslims barely made up 75%.

LOL... "Barely made up 75%" No. I never mentioned "Muslims." Jews made up around 10% and non-Jews (which includes Muslims) 90%.

Claims that her opinion represents everyone and that it represents the original charter are absurd.

LOL. From "Poalei Tziyon" ("Our Platform") -- from the World Zionist Organization: (1906)

"The land of stychically concentrated Jewish immigration will be Palestine."

"Political territorial autonomy in Palestine is the ultimate aim of Zionism."

"The practical adherents of Palestine assert that theoretically they are territorialists, while practically they are for Palestine. With us, however, theoretical territorialism is not to be distinguished from concrete territorialism; for concentrated Jewish immigration will direct itself toward Palestine and not toward any other territory. We do not claim that Palestine is the sole or best territory; we merely indicate that Palestine is the territory where territorial autonomy will be obtained. Our Palestinism is neither theoretical nor practical, but rather predictive."

Now, regarding the territory, you mentioned a map before 1919. Fine. I tend to go with the later one because more time was devoted to discussion, deliberation and finalization. So, with less than 10% of the population, the Zionists' aim was territorial autonomy over all of the land presented in their map of 1919.

I thought the mental health professional presented the charter's logical ramifications very well.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

LOL... "Barely made up 75%" No. I never mentioned "Muslims." Jews made up around 10% and non-Jews (which includes Muslims) 90%.

LOL...well if muslims and 'others made up 90% (which they didn't, jews were about 15%) then it wasn't a 90% majority, it was two or more groups that maed up about 85%, simple math and common sense really.

LOL. From "Poalei Tziyon" ("Our Platform") -- from the World Zionist Organization: (1906)

LOL. But you said the Zionist plan wasn't written down anywhere! And again one organization 20 years after the Zionism started is NOT proof of anything. Really this running on circles is losing its charm.

with less than 10% of the population

Well except it wasn't less tha 10%. But why should facts and reality matter.

I thought the mental health professional presented the charter's logical ramifications very well.

Of course because it agrees with your preconcieved belief.

The charter that isn't written down anywhere, so she was discussing HER belief in what this nebulous charter was. And discussing it years later without meeting with and talking to the people involved. Real mental health professionals don't generally make diagnosis or form professional opinions based on hearsay.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

LOL...well if muslims and 'others made up 90% (which they didn't, jews were about 15%) then it wasn't a 90% majority

Sorry, according to my sources, at the time of the Balfour Declaration and the first draft of the map of the proposed Jewish homeland, Jews were less than 10%.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html

Perceptive readers also need to consider this: The Jews living in Palestine at the time of the Balfour Declaration were strongly anti-Zionist. They believed that the only Jewish immigrants that should be allowed into Palestine were orthodox/observant Jews -- which the Zionists were not. They saw correctly that Zionism would only bring serious problems.

The charter that isn't written down anywhere, so she was discussing HER belief in what this nebulous charter was.

She understands the charter. Other Jews who read her and speak of it themselves obviously understand it as well. The basic precepts are well understood. They have formed the basis for the key decisions for every Israeli Prime Minister since Ben-Gurion. The only leader who stepped out of line was Rabin, and that misstep was quickly corrected.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

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