Israeli forces slice deeper into Gaza

densely packed urban areas, where the military said Hamas was shielding itself behind civilians.

B/S

Hamas just wants to draw the Isrealites into house to house fighting, just like was done in Baghdad and all across Iraq. Same tactic. And it works. < :-)

The terrorist are good at crying foul....even though they are savages in their attacks.

The Hamas militants killed will be counted as civilians. Israel is in a lose lose situation. If I were them, I would do as much damage as possible to suspected military sites (ignore that collateral damage). They will be blamed anyway no matter how careful they are.

Israel has a vested interest in minimizing civilian casualties, Hamas has a vested interest in maximizing them. Israel needs time to take out as much of Hamas as possible but as civilian casualties mount they face more and more international pressure to stop. That plays into Hamas' hands.

Hamas intentionally mixes military with civilian in order to make a strike by Israel impossible without inflicting collateral damage. They fire from houses, apartments, hospitals. When Israel responds, the Palestinians are ready with their video camera and send images of wounded civilians to people all over the world. Then they set up their rockets next to fresh houses in another area.

Hamas has even gone to the extremes of refusing to allow injured Palestinians to be treated in Egypt and we all know how famous they are for choosing to smuggle in weapons over medicine.

Hezbollah used this tactic in their war with Israel. The more they maximized civilian casualties (literally placing rockets on the roofs of hospitals), the more pressure Israel received to stop. Israel stopped, and Hezbollah imported even more rockets and fortified their positions and that's where they stand today. That's why Israel's position for a ceasefire is conditioned upon international monitors being on the ground in Gaza to make sure the end of hostilities isn't a process to rearm Hamas for the next round of attacks.

Israel has dropped leaflets into areas telling non-combatants to leave. They've given Palestinians warnings to leave houses that are about to be bombed. They're sending in ground troops now, troops that will surely die, to take out missile positions that are too risky to take out by air. They know that any civilian casualty will create pressure on them to stop before they've made any kind of decisive blow against Hamas. Civilian casualties is the best defense for Hamas, a party that has already worked hard to give their population a mindset that it's their duty to die for their cause.

one apparent contrast: israel seems to be trying to protect its civilian population from bombs; hamas seems to be holding palestinian civilians in contempt.

Condemnation of Israel’s ground operation poured in from around the Middle East and Europe.

Lookee here, the two parties most culpable to this current calamity don't like whats going on. No surprise here. This fight for survival on both sides points directly back to European Colonialism and Arab intolerance.

Instead of condemnation, how about a solution to fix your grave mistakes fellas.

Israeli indicriminate killing is a sheer act of cowardice but it will be doubtful to see Israel reach their objective which was to destroy Hamas. Destroying Hamas’s government is one thing, but destroying Hamas the movement, is quite another. Hamas after this Israeli massacre will get stronger, at least in terms of popularity and stature therefore the Israeli strategy will fail.

You have these groups of people who have only known this stalemate for generations, with blood on their hands... thank god I am not a party to this death spiral.

U.S. officials maintained their firm support for Israel and squarely blamed Hamas.

Obviously! I wonder how many people realize that much of the billions of dollars of aid given to Israel finds its way back in the US, where it is used to bribe (and control by other means) most (if not all) politicians and other important people.

money well spent. the same amount is spent on foreign aid to Egypt, Jordan and WestBank/Gaza. How many people know we are paying off Egypt and Jordan to play nice. Got no clue what benefit we get out of giving money to the Palestinians.

Egad, is this the year 2009 or 1009?

Oh! The poor people of Israel,having to put up with the constant rockets. I think this is a good time to pray and read the holy book. The Jewish Torah in the Old Testament book Numbers 33:51-56 states:

51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be #ricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them."

the same amount is spent on foreign aid to Egypt, Jordan and WestBank/Gaza.

I doubt very much the Palestinians are getting as much as the Israelis.

sabiwabi,

You continue to make little sense...you seem to be claiming that Israel should put up with rocket attacks that no other nation should put up with because of something you interprete from the Bible...

The bottom line is that Hamas has abandoned their true duties to their people as a political entity and has continued to support terrorism instead of true negotiations. That is why Hamas should not get any money until they learn that the only way to have a peaceful existence for their people and their nation is to stop the rockets and stop supporting suicide bombings etc and negotiate peace...true peace, not just short ceasefires.

hassanfakiri,

Israel has not said they want to 'destroy Hamas'. They have stated that their goal is to stop the rocket attacks and stop Hamas from having the ability to stage such attacks. It is not an unreasonable thing for a nation to want to do...

kinniku, I'm surprised you still try to defend these criminals. One has to be incredibly gullible to believe that this is all about rockets.

I'm surprised you still try to defend these criminals.

I am not trying to defend Hamas! ;-)

Seriously, Hamas has been using the six month ceasefire to increase the range of the rockets they fire into Israel. You claim it is not about rockets, yet if someone were to shoot rockets (even if they missed) at you, you would not like it and would want to stop it.

Unfortunately, for you this is a matter of attacking a religion you do not like and that is what is at the center of your 'argument'. You are still talking about Jews killing Jesus after all. Now, you are using your interpretation of the Bible to claim Israelis should do nothing about rocket attacks from Gaza. It is a non-sensical argument...

Kinniku, you actually think Hamas is firing rockets for no reason other than a hatred for Jews? This just shows how little you know of this region's history.

Try reading what I wrote again...

For you this is a matter of attacking a religion you do not like and that is what is at the center of your 'argument'.

At least you have come to the realization that Hamas is firing rockets. You often attempt to claim Israelis are firing them! You want to continue to reinvent and reconstruct history in any way that makes Jews seems like the bad guys. I have not said Hamas is doing this. I said you were. Hamas on the other hand has had an opportunity to use funds given to Palestine to improve the lives of the people on the ground. Hamas only had to renounce violence and work for peace, a true peace. Unfortunately, they only use truces to reinforce and continue the cycle of violence.

You claim it is not about rockets, yet if someone were to shoot rockets (even if they missed) at you, you would not like it and would want to stop it.

All Israel has to do to stop the rockets is to stop treating the Palestinians as cattle. Any so-called nation that encloses millions of human beings for many years in the largest open air prison camp on earth, and restricts travel, food, electricity, fuel, medicine... should expect rockets being fired at them.

And any nation that supports this treatment of the Palestinian people is also guilty.

All Israel has to do to stop the rockets is to stop treating the Palestinians as cattle.

This is not quite true as you well know...When Israel pulled out of Gaza negotiations were in the works for border control amongst Gaza, Israel and Egypt. Unfortunately, rockets and suicide bombings made this difficult. You will never see me write that I think anything other than the Palestinians deserve to live in peace in Palestine side-by-side with Israel. However, you cannot have a Paletinian government (Hamas) that does not recognize Israel and refuses to negotiate for a true peace. The blockade came after the rockets, not the other way around. When the Israelis first left Gaza over 1500 Palestinians freely crossed the border with Egypt. This should have and would have continued were it not for the violence...

Hamas will have to change from a revolutionary group into a real political group if it wants to be relevant. Hamas right now is not working for its people, it is just working for itself...

Hamas intentionally mixes military with civilian in order to make a strike by Israel impossible without inflicting collateral damage.

Okay, okay we'll have Hamas build all their military installation right there in the open. Hamas will lay down on the open ground and allow Isreal to shoot them like ducks in an archade.

Now we turn to Isreal and give them jets and bombers. We give them ships and tanks. Now we tell them that all they have to do is kill Hamas.

Where the hell are Hamas or anybody else going to go? They can't run anywhere. They can't hide anywhere. They can't do anything except stand there and allow the "EVIL ISREALITES" a duck shoot.

Oh course you hide in houses. That's where they live. They don't have military installations like in Isreal or at least the ones that the United States pays for. They can't get away from anything, because the damn country is so small. THERE IS NO RUNNING!!!!

Isreal fired the first shots at Hamas during November 2008, before the cease fire was over, but people want to blame Hamas for starting it. Isreal started this but the almight rightous people blame Hamas for retaliating.

It's like football. The first person who takes the cheap shot isn't seen, it's the player who swings in retaliation that is penalized. That's what is going on here.

Anybody who thinks this is going to help Isreal is blind. Remember Lebanon. Hizbollah is atronger than ever before. Hamas may only have 10,000 members right now. They will double, triple.

I hope Isreal reaps all that it sows. < :-)

there it is in a nutshell folks. Israel and her supporters want peace and Hamas and its supporters want more violence. Thats the way it has been for the last 20-30 years and Israel is the bad guy. More proof that Israel is completely justified as it carries out military operations to protect itself.

Anybody who thinks this is going to help Isreal is blind. Remember Lebanon. Hizbollah is atronger than ever before.

I am not so sure...They haven't been shooting any rockets at Israel for quite some time...

Isreal fired the first shots at Hamas during November 2008, before the cease fire was over,

Indeed, but they simply have to claim they were militants, their media stooges parrot their lies, and its all OK.

It's like football. The first person who takes the cheap shot isn't seen, it's the player who swings in retaliation that is penalized. That's what is going on here.

Yep, and its even easier if the one who takes the cheap shot decides which replays to show.

Israel did get a beating in Lebanon, although the Lebanese people payed a heavy price. Now they want to show they are strong, so they pick on someone dying on the ground and kick them in the teeth.

buy not bye. < :-)

VOR you take nobody serious who disagrees with you. To you Isreal can never do any wrong. < :-)

Those who support Israel totally, without condition, are extremists. As the world is demonstrating, the majority demand moderate approaches. Other than violence, other base instincts, what other outlet does a caged, miserable, uneducated mass of humanity have when it's pushed, again and again, further into poverty, deprivation and despair? Israel, up to the ground invasion, has played this propaganda and waiting game masterfully, but the majority see this for what it is. Wrong.

Slicing in Gaza. Just like I predicted. The IDF boys, they don't mess about. Memo to the President of Hamas: Surrender. You are getting smashed!

adaydream: Isreal fired the first shots at Hamas during November 2008, before the cease fire was over, but people want to blame Hamas for starting it.

I heard that Hamas militants were caught trying to tunnel out of Gaza Strip and into "Israel" (they would have tunneled into land actually partition for Palestinians but taken by the Israelis in 48) At any rate they were tunneling toward Israeli forces during a ceasefire. What is your position on that?

Soothsayer Rooney: Unlike your namesake you obviously don't understand much. Hamas, by suffering, by taking the death of its people full on, by dying as martyrs grows stronger. It is exactly what they want and exactly how they will cement their support across the grass roots board. Israel would be much better to engage with the people of Gaza, that's PEOPLE, you know, families. Women, children, men. The extremists on both sides are winning to lose.

Israel would be much better to engage with the people of Gaza, that's PEOPLE, you know, families. Women, children, men.

Who do think those three thousands greenhouses the Israeli's built in Gaza employed? Mexicans?

They did that and that didn't work out so good either.

This non stop killing has to stop. Let me tell you the people of the world and the governments except "rogue state USA" are non getting mad with Israel.

John Prescott said "The Israeli's are acting like the most vile and violent school bully" vand i blooming agree.

The BBC said the majority of Isareli's want a ceasefire, but their government refuses.It'S like a blooming fascist dictatroship innit!

sabiwabi,

I see you don't care to take the moderator's advice about propaganda, huh?

The answer is a simple one. Hamas needs to stop the violence completely and make true peace with Israel.

The BBC said the majority of Isareli's want a ceasefire, but their government refuses.

I would be curious to see proof of the BBC saying this...as the majority of Israelis seem to be against a ceasefire with Hamas, especially now.

Kinniku, the answer is indeed very simple.

All Israel has to do to stop the rockets is to stop treating the Palestinians as cattle. Any so-called nation that encloses millions of human beings for many years in the largest open air prison camp on earth, and restricts travel, food, electricity, fuel, medicine, fishing, agriculture... should expect rockets being fired at them.

To understand why Hamas is firing rockets, you have to be aware of what the conditions are like in Gaza. They are terrible, and its because of strict (inhumane) restrictions imposed by Israel. The Israeli navy even attacked relief ship in international waters that was delivering 3 tons of much needed medical supplies as well as medical staff to Gaza. This video (I believe from CNN) reports the incident: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/516.html

sabiwabi,

Except, as I already correctly mentioned, when the Israelis first left Gaza over 1500 Palestinians freely crossed the border with Egypt. This should have and would have continued were it not for the rockets and other violence against Israel after the withdrawal...

Hamas needs to abandon its goal of the destruction of the state of Israel and you should too.

Again, with brasschecktv? You truely love your propaganda...

Your links have nothing to do with the fact that Israel had left Gaza and there was a real chance for peace. If only Hamas and Hamas supporters would realize the only way toward peace is to make steps towards peace.

"Gaza will be a graveyard for you, God willing."

Gaza has been and will continue to be a graveyard for Hamas, the Israeli armed forces willing.

kinniku, what propaganda? That was a CNN clip, wasn't it? Do you not believe it, that the ship was carrying needed medical supplies and medical doctors and that it was attacked by the Israeli navy? One has to wonder why Israel wants to make life miserable for Palestinians (for peace???), why many world governments are supportive or silent about this abuse, and why people like you defend their actions. This is not about rockets!

Yup, God ain't "willing" it would seem...

Again, with brasschecktv? You truely love your propaganda...

kinniku, knock it off! You don't like brasschecktv, then here is another source. It is clearly marked CNN. Okay? Did you even watch it?

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=9iTfq-QMEHw

It happened. Don't be stupid about this, as if we don't have enough to wade through without people trying to cast doubt on what is obviously real!!!!

Your links have nothing to do with the fact that Israel had left Gaza and there was a real chance for peace.

The link is just another another nail in the coffin of trust for the Israelis. Historically the only chance for peace with them is peace that is TOTALLY on their terms and the point of their guns. More recently, giving up Gaza was a step in the right direction, but people are arguing the particulars of that decision. The Devil is in the details you know. No one has presented anything to me yet to sufficiently confirm or deny the idea that the Israelis are not acting in good faith. History SURE AS HELL suggests they are not though. And the video confirms that the "shoot first, ask questions later" Israeli mentality is alive and well (and it is kind of me to say so rather than suggest they do this crap on purpose). Heard about the Grad rockets that were actually oxygen cylinders? The U.S.S. Liberty?

I do not approve of the rocket fire. I grudgingly accept that military conquest must be accepted. I like Hamas about as much as I like Israel. Not at all. So don't anyone get confused about that.

Sorry, but Hamas' two best weapons are rockets and civilian casualties on their side. One inflicts harm onto Israel, the other prevents harm by Israel.

Israel is the last country in the world that is fit to complain about terrorism. After all, Israel is terror in its ugliest form. Israel has always been a mass murderer, a child killer, a land thief and a liar.

The genocidal rampage Israel is carrying out in Gaza represents the norm rather than the exception as far Israeli behaviors are concerned.Israel’s history has been an uninterrupted chain of massacres and terror. What makes the present mini-holocaust in Gaza look especially gruesome is the live television coverage from the field. This didn’t exist in 1948 and the few subsequent years when Jeiwsh thugs committed numerous even more heinous massacres against the native Palestinians.

Israel imposed two alternatives on Palestinians, either to live a dog’s life and die quietly of starvation as a result of the Nazi-like siege, or be exterminated by the Israeli war machine.

This is just dreadful. Now there come reports from the Jerusalem Post that Hamas has shot as many as seventy-five Fatah personnel in the last week, after having branded them as collaborators.

At the Dearborn Kabob House spirits are low. This internecine violence means that Hamas does not even trust their fellow Palestinians in the struggle.

This, of course, will just serve to radicalize Israel even more.

It is well known in Israel that the more Palestinian blood a given Israeli politician sheds, the more popular he or she will become in the eyes of the Israeli Jewish public. In short, we are talking about a mostly cannibalistic and psychotic society that would be willing to murder millions of people while claiming to be the victim.

kinniku, what propaganda?

Yes, when you link a site that links current events to the USS Liberty I think it is propaganda...in addition to the other garbage on that site...

ditto for you likeitis...sabiwabi could have just directly linked the CNN video through youtube. The reasons why he didn't are obvious, as are the reasons for your comments above...

I am amazed at how some here can continue to wish for no end to the violence and can continue to support the lack of peace in the region. Hamas, as pointed out by the poster above, is a radical organization that puts its own future ahead of that of the very people they claim to represent.

As to the boat incident in December, some posters above are using it to link it to unconnected events more than 40 years ago. In addition, their version events do not seem to match the reality...

A group tried to break through the Israeli blockade...given the current situation with Hamas in Gaza it is hardly a surprise the Israeli Navy didn't greet them with flowers and kisses...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081230121412669439.html

To be clear, the vessel mentioned above was entering Israeli water without permission and it is alleged the boat did not respond to radio contact from the Israelis...

Again, if Hamas would give up their desire to destroy Israel and actually work for their people toward a real peace for their nation, there would be no attacks on Gaza or any other part of Palestine.

Hamas, by suffering, by taking the death of its people full on, by dying as martyrs, grows stronger. It is exactly what they want and exactly how they will cement their support across the grass roots board. Israel would be much better to engage with the people of Gaza, that's PEOPLE, you know, families. Women, children, men. The extremists on both sides are winning to lose. Glass houses, sailwind, are hardly even close to being a drop of a comprehensive solution. That post by you would be funny but for its offensiveness.

YangYong,

Of course all sides would benefit from peaceful interactions. I doubt anyone would be willing to deny that. However, Hamas was not and is not willing to do this. What exactly and specifically are you proposing?

Things should have been a lot different for Gaza after the Israeli pullout of 2005. I remember seeing the over 1500 Gazans freely crossing the Gaza/Egypt border. The atmosphere was positive and talks were in the works for continued progress between Palestine, Egypt and Israel. However, extremists still seem to control Gaza and this does not serve the Palestinian people.

The argument that 'if you don't support Israel you support war' is absolutely ludicrous! Israel has waged war and is currently in the midst of the BIGGEST ground and aerial campaign they've ever committed. Now, do tell me again how they want peace.

That ties directly into the people who support Israel without question as somehow believing that, again, if you don't support Israel you automatically support Hamas (and therefore the terr'ists!!). I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. What many people -- and that goes for people protesting in just about every country world-wide -- are against is the size at which Israel has chosen to make this, and said people are rightly concerned that what this is about is not simply stopping the rockets. Israel has said it's not trying to reoccupy the Gaza, nor is it trying to destroy Hamas, but come on... really? I can just see them finishing the campaign and saying, "Well, we better sit here in the Gaza for a while and make sure no one launches rockets. Say, you settlers over there! Why not come in and help us as additional 'security'?"

Israel is right to defend itself from the increase in rocket attacks, as a last possible resort, but even as Sailwind admitted in an excellent post yesterday, the only way a sustainable peace is going to come about is through Israel eventually giving up some land, and then both parties returning to the table to discuss lasting peace.

I hope this campaign ends shortly, and with as little bloodshed as possible on BOTH sides (but since it's in Palestinian territory, I hope especially for the safety of innocents). After that, I hope both sides can see the folly of war and get on to what they should have done long ago -- put the borders back to pre-1967 and make nice. It won't be easy, but that's what needs to be done before this cyclic violence can stop once and for all.

Again, much of this Sailwind touched on yesterday.

Muscles: It's strange that you seemingly haven't asked yourself as to why an extremist group, in this instance Hamas, were elected into a position of government. What would see a populace vote extremists into office? What does it take to make a populace not resort to extreme measures to live? Not survive day to day but to LIVE. You already know the answers to the questions you posed and to suggest extremists only exist within the Palestinian camp is rather rich considering you know that not to be true. Zionism is an extreme ideology too...

Yes, when you link a site that links current events to the USS Liberty I think it is propaganda...in addition to the other garbage on that site...

SCREW THE SECONDARY SOURCE! ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE PRIMARY! Its not like any of those had been doctored!

If you want to argue that the past is in the past, fine. I think its relevant to establish a pattern of behaviour, and I apply that to both Israel and Palestinis alike. But holding such a position does not make history propaganda.

sabiwabi could have just directly linked the CNN video through youtube. The reasons why he didn't are obvious

Anyone who wants to verify any of it can use google, and use their own brain to decide if the U.S.S. Liberty is relevant. I find it to be very apt anecdote and a window into the behavior of the Israelis. The fact of so many not wanting to talk about it also speaks volumes.

Hamas, as pointed out by the poster above, is a radical organization that puts its own future ahead of that of the very people they claim to represent.

The Israelis have been as wonton with lives when it comes to questions of land as the Palestinians/Hamas. Whether they have changed or not is certainly up for debate.

To be clear, the vessel mentioned above was entering Israeli water without permission

That is more like it. Lets keep the discussion on what is discussable.

Now I am trying to figure out why they did not get permission. Could they have gotten permission? I read they have run the blockade no less than six times. Why, if they could have gotten permission? Or is Gaza really the prison camp some allege it to be?

Death, carnage and genocide, welcome to 21st Century Israel.

A disgrace to the world. WE should impose sanctions on the nation at once.

Sorry, YangYong. I guess I made a mistake...Just to check, was there a suggestion of a solution in what you just wrote, because I sure don't see one. I just see you justifying Hamas' actions...You suggests I already know the 'answers'. Well why not humour me and tell me what you think is the answer?

To be clear, I have never, ever suggested there was no extremism in Israel or that it only existed in Palestine. However, the current conflict is a result of extremism on part of Hamas. You claim that Hamas had to resort to these actions? Why? When they had a pullout in 2005 and the very next day over 1500 Palestinians were freely crossing the Egyptian border. It is because of Hamas that things have continued to get worse for the Palestinians.

Yes, I am aware of the feelings of the population of Gaza and why they seem to support Hamas. It is a similar situation in Lebanon with Hezbollah. However, these two groups have not made any positive differences in the lives of Palestinians in Gaza. In fact, they have made them worse...

Israel has waged war and is currently in the midst of the BIGGEST ground and aerial campaign they've ever committed.

SmithinJapan, you mean what happened in '67 on Israel's behalf was smaller than now?

SCREW THE SECONDARY SOURCE!

Sorry, you must be new here. The fact that the site sabiwabi links is anti-Israel and prints obvious falsehoods is important to people who actually care about the truth...

I think its relevant to establish a pattern of behaviour

Both sides have 'patterns of behaviour' however sabiwabi is openly anti-Semitic and I think that that is a pattern of behaviour as well...

However, speaking specifically, each government of Israel is a seperate government. To link people and goevenments that are not connected is not an intelligent way of discussing things. It would be like suddenly bringing up Arafat when discussing Hamas. We are not talking about a pattern of behaviour of an individual...it is not the same.

Anyone who wants to verify any of it can use google, and use their own brain to decide if the U.S.S. Liberty is relevant.

Sorry, does that mean we should also start linking all anti-Palestinian websites that lists all the attacks on Israel? They are not part of the discussion and are irrelevant. Linking the site sabiwabi did was solely for the purpose of promoting hatred. A quick look at his posts make this obvious. One should not need to use such websites to make their supposed points.

The Israelis have been as wonton with lives when it comes to questions of land as the Palestinians/Hamas.

Not with their own people...quite a different story...

Now I am trying to figure out why they did not get permission. Could they have gotten permission? I read they have run the blockade no less than six times. Why, if they could have gotten permission? Or is Gaza really the prison camp some allege it to be?

Do you understand what the word 'blockade' means? As you said, they ran the blockade. They were not trying to 'get permission'. These people are purposefully trying to break the blockade through their actions. Maybe you agree with their actions. I don't know. However, receiving an angry response should hardly have been surprising for them...

SCREW THE SECONDARY SOURCE! ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE PRIMARY! Its not like any of those had been doctored!

Likeitis, so you're sayin' primary sources aren't fabricated?

Of course they may be.

You, too... Why all the screamin' at other posters?

the very next day over 1500 Palestinians were freely crossing the Egyptian border.

Have you considered what a mass depopulation of Gaza would mean for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, the government of Gaza, and for relations with Egypt? Do you realize that the first people to leave in times of trouble are generally the ones who most desireable, the rich, the doctors, the educated, etc.? And while Egypt might be happy to absorb just them, is going to be less than happy to absorb everybody else?

And what is message here? Not that you are free to live in happiness, but rather, you are free to leave?

likeitis,

Have you considered what a mass depopulation of Gaza would mean for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, the government of Gaza, and for relations with Egypt?

Sigh...do I need to give you a history lesson? The Palestinians were not emigrating from Gaza on the day after Israel left Gaza in 2005. They were just crossing the border back and forth freely as it should be now too...

Hamas's actions have made this kind of border crossing impossible. That was and is my point...

Yes, I am aware of the feelings of the population of Gaza and why they seem to support Hamas. It is a similar situation in Lebanon with Hezbollah. However, these two groups have not made any positive differences in the lives of Palestinians in Gaza. In fact, they have made them worse...

Americans who still do not understand why their nation was attacked on 9/11 need only look to Gaza. The reason why Palestinians are worse off is because of the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which is a gross violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions.

This should have been the beginning of better days for the Palestinians of Gaza...

Instead we have Hamas still hoping to 'destroy' Israel. It is unrealistic and it does not help the Palestinian cause for a state of Palestine. Neither do rockets and suicide bombers from Hamas and other militants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4472854.stm

More than 1,500 Palestinians have crossed freely from Gaza into Egypt via a border point controlled for the first time by Palestinian officials.

Sigh...do I need to give you a history lesson?

There is not one of us here who is an expert on this very messy situation. It is precious few of us who have the sense to admit ignorance of all the little details, and they discredit themselves every second they act otherwise. Yes. History lesson please, because I am not Israeli, Palestinian, nor an expert, same as everyone here.

Hamas's actions have made this kind of border crossing impossible. That was and is my point...

I see. Thank you. Now I am wondering why it was impossible under Israeli occupation. You don't have to answer that, but all help is welcome.

hassanfakiri,

If Hamas was truly willing to work for peace instead of destruction, the conflict unfolding now in Gaza would not exist...

The Palestinians were not emigrating from Gaza on the day after Israel left Gaza in 2005. They were just crossing the border back and forth freely as it should be now too...

Israel never let go off the occupation of Gaza. This is an another lie which israel like to say. Israel dismantled the illegal settlements in Gaza but never let go of the occupation The criminal siege of Gaza which is a gross violation to the Geneva Conventions started when Hamas won the elections. Israel punished an enitre population due to Palestinians voting a political party which israel did not like. The same political party which was supported and funded by Israel throughout the 80s and 90s to counter PLO. Hamas only became the enemy of Israel after Hamas had become the strongest Palestinian resistance movement.

Now I am wondering why it was impossible under Israeli occupation.

Sorry, I don't understand the question. When Israel left, the border in 2005 was controlled by the Palestinian Authority not Israel. As far as why the border was not 'free' before that (if that is your question) it is because of the fear of the smuggling of weapons along the Gazan border when Israel controlled the area. BTW, Egypt did and does have the same fears now as well.

because I am not Israeli, Palestinian, nor an expert,

Then please do not get so belligerent when discussing details that you are unfamiliar with. You need to check the facts before getting so uptight.

Muscles: If you, 'sure don't see' a solution, why post? Why engage in discussion if you're just going to hit a dead end and bang your head on a wall? The solution involves many steps and a long road. Yet, perhaps, Israel, to show us all how determined she is in her commitment to peace, could do well by unilaterally declaring a cease fire: Imagine that? Or maybe she could let in humanitarian aid? Or perhaps by surgically going after Hamas --Mossad will know who, where and when-- they could bring their objectives to close? But I doubt it. You seem to misunderstand that Israel's pull-out resulted in no improvement in Gaza's conditions, that a de-facto blockade was put into effect and that collective punishment has been and continues to be a weapon applied against a desperate populace. In no aspect of my post(s) am I justifying any action of violence and this now tired and boring stance by you and your ilk that if Israel's approach is questioned it is somehow supporting Hamas is now a dead format... but I do feel I have an understanding as to why the Palestinians see Hama as an answer and if you don't like the answers, if they scare you: Stop asking the questions.

hassanfakiri,

Sorry, you are incorrect. The Israelis left and handed over control of the border to the Palestinian Authority. It was through that border that over 1500 Palestinians passed back and forth. This would have continued if not for the violence...violence and rhetoric that continues today.

Hassanfakiri, the Palestinians had the beginnin' - the beginnin' - of a good thing goin' for them, and then Hamas began doin' what Hamas does.

Blame them.

YangYong,

If you, 'sure don't see' a solution, why post? Why engage in discussion if you're just going to hit a dead end and bang your head on a wall?

I meant I don't see a solution in your previous response...I have been clear about my opinion of how the Israelis and Palestinians need to hang up their hatred and make peace...

could do well by unilaterally declaring a cease fire

While Hamas is shooting rockets? Highly unrealistic...

You seem to misunderstand that Israel's pull-out resulted in no improvement in Gaza's conditions

Not true, as mentioned above...things were getting better...

Or perhaps by surgically going after Hamas

That is what they are doing. Most of those killed were members of Hamas.

I have never said Israel is completely in the right. However, in the case of this conflict, Hamas is in the wrong...

You seem to be jumping to huge conclusions about what I think without actually responding to what I write. I am very specific in my criticism of Hamas as the leaders of the Palestinians. I do not question how they came to be the leaders of the Palestinians, I question what they have been doing with the leadership roles they have been given...

The fact that the site sabiwabi links is anti-Israel and prints obvious falsehoods is important to people who actually care about the truth...

It still says nothing about CNN, the primary source. Nothing. At all. Zero. Zip. And the primary source is all that matters.

If you want to accuse the site and Sabi of anti-semitism, fine. But you glossed over the case on those grounds. And it was ridiculous.

However, speaking specifically, each government of Israel is a seperate government. To link people and goevenments that are not connected is not an intelligent way of discussing things.

Like I said, if you want to regard past actions and modes of thought as irrelevant to here and now, its your choice. But I think you will be worse off for doing so. The way I see it, government policies carry over, and those policies are not always a matter of public knowledge. Also, they sometimes amount to winks and nods within the government itself rather than clear writings on paper.

And gee, if each election period constituted a whole new government and way of thinking, I would have thought that Gaza strip would have been returned a little sooner than 37 years after the taking, not to mention all the areas that have yet to be returned.

And further to THAT, mid to low level military thinking has got to change the least of anything by virtue of elections, and by "shoot first, ask questions later" that is what I was referring to.

Sorry, does that mean we should also start linking all anti-Palestinian websites that lists all the attacks on Israel? They are not part of the discussion and are irrelevant.

I never whine about extraneous information until it leaks into the discussion in a time wasting fashion. I will gladly examine whatever I have the time to.

As you said, they ran the blockade. They were not trying to 'get permission'. These people are purposefully trying to break the blockade through their actions.

First things first. This should be obvious to you. Is it possible for anyone to get permission to deliver medical aid through the blockade? If no, of course I will support running it. Anyone who would not in that case has something wrong with them, such as being just plain evil. Could they or couldn't they?

As far as why the border was not 'free' before that (if that is your question) it is because of the fear of the smuggling of weapons along the Gazan border when Israel controlled the area.

Yes, that is the question. Thank you for an answer. I still need to ponder this ...

Kinniku

＞Sorry, you are incorrect. The Israelis left and handed over control of the border to the Palestinian Authority. It was through that border that over 1500 Palestinians passed back and forth. This would have continued if not for the violence...violence and rhetoric that continues today.

The PA never controlled the borders. Israel did. Israel still controls borders, air space, and the sea. Israel is carrying out one of many massacres in its 60-year occupation of Palestine.The siege which is a violation to Geneva Conventions was imposed only first AFTER Hamas won the legislative elections. Israel has told Palestinians that they are unfit for democracy.

They were just crossing the border back and forth freely...When Israel left, the border in 2005 was controlled by the Palestinian Authority not Israel

You don't actually believe that do you?

Anyway, borders were not restricted for safety reasons, the Palestinians are being bullied to vote for who Israel wants them to vote for. Just like it was not for safety reasons that the Israeli navy attacked the ship delivering much needed medical supplies and doctors in international waters. Nobody will take you seriously if you continue like this.

Musles: Come of it man. Air strikes on Police Stations, churches, the University and Mosques with half-tonne bombs is NOT surgical. That kind of surgery leaves you haemorrhaging on the floor, dying. You say 'most' of the dead are Hamas but it's not 'all' is it? I find your flippant use of 'most' offensive. That still leaves 'some'. You know, some children, some women, some old, some men... and that for me --emotive as it is-- is unacceptable. (As any deaths on the Israeli side are before you start!) Things were getting better? Hardly. What is more infrastructure paid for, by say, the EU, was destroyed for the purpose of collective punishment, for example, the destruction of an airport was to what end? I know it is highly unrealistic that Israel will unilaterally declare a cease-fire, hence it was tempered with 'imagine' BUT indeed, just imagine. I see you left other suggestions unattended by your sharp wit and insight, funny that. However, we seem to agree on one thing. It's a mess. I do however say it's within Israel's power --and her main backer-- to stop the radicalization of a desperate populace by offering the people of Gaza a better life... Then Hamas, perhaps, wouldn't even have a populist base to debase, abuse and twist?

It still says nothing about CNN, the primary source. Nothing. At all. Zero. Zip.

Maybe that is because I was not complaining about CNN...(Because I don't have a complaint about CNN).

But you glossed over the case on those grounds. And it was ridiculous.

I did no such thing. I even linked an Al Jazeera page and wrote details of it that you and I were discussing. My problem was with primary site linked...it that so hard to understand? You don't agree? Fine, however do not attempt to take away my right to voice protest against a site I find distasteful. I certainly would not attempt to take away yours.

Like I said, if you want to regard past actions and modes of thought as irrelevant to here and now, its your choice.

Actually, that is the moderators choice for the most part. However, linking completely unrelated events to make a conpiracy theory is pretty ridiculous. As is thinking that you can approach a country's waters or borders without permission and that there is no chance of warning shots...

BTW, shoot first and ask questions later refers to actually shooting to kill not warning shots...

I never whine about extraneous information until it leaks into the discussion in a time wasting fashion. I will gladly examine whatever I have the time to.

Sorry, we disagree. I do not like hate speech and do not choose to look at information that supports it or that is presented by people who support it. To each his own I guess.

Is it possible for anyone to get permission to deliver medical aid through the blockade?

Yes. It is and has been...what do you think the Palestinians have been using all this time? Why is it you need me to answer such questions? I do not neccesarily think the aid is enough though for the Israel govenment has tended to stop the flow whenever there is a security problem such as the rockets or shootings across the border (the same is true for Egypt).

I do not think the people on the boat were evil. They are probably very nice people. However, I also do not think it is strange that during what is essentially a small war that a boat approaching a country's territory would possibly be rammed.

The blockade was imposed only AFTER Hamas won the elections. The Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip began immediately after Hamas won the legislative election in January 2006. Hamas had repeatedly said it was willing and ready to stop all firing of projectiles from Gaza if only Israel would lift the deadly blockade.

kinniku, you have stated that the border was closed due to violence. Are you refering to 2008 or 2006? Be aware that the border was closed by Israel in both years and I am trying to acertain dates and reasons.

That still leaves 'some'. You know, some children, some women, some old, some men... and that for me --emotive as it is-- is unacceptable.

YangYong,

I never said it was acceptable. However, to cripple Hamas, it would take more than a couple of assassinations. Surely you can see that...

Things were getting better? Hardly.

In 2005? They were getting better. A free border run by the Palestinian Authority was the start of better things. Strange you don't agree...

I see you left other suggestions unattended by your sharp wit and insight, funny that.

Which suggestions would those be? I believe I responded fairly completely to your post.

I do however say it's within Israel's power --and her main backer-- to stop the radicalization of a desperate populace by offering the people of Gaza a better life...

How so? If Hamas is not willing to recognize Israel and sit down at the table to discuss peace, how it is in anyone's power to stop the continued radicalization of the populace?

Hassanfakiri, no, I'm quite serious about the contempt Arab states and most Arab peoples have for the Palestinians.

Speakin' about 'elections', what's this bidness about Hamas murderin' the elected Palestinian government in Gaza and then startin' their provocation with Israel?

Even when Clinton made peace between Arafat and the Israelis, Hamas vowed to continue their terrorism.

So many opportunities to progress and then... Hamas.

Yes. It is and has been...what do you think the Palestinians have been using all this time?

All this time? The situation with the blockade has changed over time. It just took a major turn in late December. I have no idea what the Israelis were letting in on the day the boat was intercepted, which I believe was the night of Dec. 29, 2008, well after the major turn. If you have some source to tell us what was being allowed and by what methods, please provide. Your rhetorical question is just not satisfying me.

likeitis,

Well, there have been blockades (I believe it was 2007 not 2006 BTW) border closings and sanctions. All are pretty much different versions of the same actions and they were put on Gaza by both Israel and Egypt in response to actions by Hamas and by the Palestinian Authority. As far as what was going on with supplies to Gaza when the boat tried to enter Israeli territory, I do not know. I do know Israel let 16 supply trucks in the day before...

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/12/28/israel-allows-16-supply-trucks-into-gaza/

However, to be surprised that a country would patrol and prevent people from entering its territory (even if they are nice people with good intentions) when they are in the middle of a war is rather unrealistic.

Good night...

Hamas won the elections and the blockade was imposed only AFTER Hamas had won the elections. The same political party which israel used to support and fund in the 80s and 90s. Why was Hamas Israels favorite political party in the 80s and 90s but not now?

Speakin' about 'elections', what's this bidness about Hamas murderin' the elected Palestinian government in Gaza

I have not read anything to support that allegation except from pro-Israeli posters. Coincidence? If you have something to support that, please link us up.

All I have seen is that violence between Hamas and Fatah happened after Hamas won the election, apparently fair and square. Not a peep about assassinations anywhere, and I have not seen even Wiki make an oversight like that. Funny thing about democracy is that it does not always work in your favor. It sounds like America and Israel might have a problem with democracy, since they wasted no time in trying to overthrow Hamas in ways that had nothing to do with campaigning and fair elections.

Moderator: Readers, please refrain from posting links to sites like Wikipedia. They are neither reliable nor relevant. The purpose of the discussion board is for readers to post their opinions.

Muscles: If a populace is secure, has jobs, isn't suppressed and, for example, has access to water, a TV, travel... you'd be amazed how quickly it settles down to live.

However, to be surprised that a country would patrol and prevent people from entering its territory

Gaza strip is not Israel's territory. Neither are international waters, where the boat was intercepted.

when they are in the middle of a war

War or no is debatable. Whether to allow in medical aid is not, and it does not matter if there is war, peace or an alien invasion.

Even if the people were just out for a propaganda stunt they will still come out clean if Israel would not have let them or any other legitimate medical aid in anyway, and not just the trucks they handpicked. Until I know that fact for sure, I have to call it an impasse.

However, greater people than you and I are declaring the blockade a crime, so the research continues...

No one in Palestine believes this is a war against Hamas but one of many massacres against the Palestinian people. Even the blood thristy Israeli politicians do not believe this.

Well, there have been blockades (I believe it was 2007 not 2006 BTW) border closings and sanctions.

Super. Now which blocade of which time were you referring to when you declared:

The Israelis left and handed over control of the border to the Palestinian Authority. It was through that border that over 1500 Palestinians passed back and forth. This would have continued if not for the violence...violence and rhetoric that continues today.

What violence of what period shut down the borders such that Palistinians could not cross?

And bear in mind that that goods crossing the border were controlled by Israel during the whole period and is alleged to be the cause of a humanitarian crisis that is YEARS old and a reason for the rockets among other things.

Hassanfakiri, you skipped over the important part of Hamas murderin' innocent Palestinians within Gaza... those you label 'collaborators'.

Hamas had numerous opportunities to knock it off before the Israelis decided enough was enough. How the common Palestinian people must tryly hate Hamas for turnin' an otherwise peaceful place into their personal battleground.

likelikeitis,

Israel's territory. Neither are international waters, where the boat was intercepted.

Care of Al Jazeera: The Dignity started taking on water after it was hit by an Israeli naval vessel as it approached the Israeli coast with its cargo of medical aid.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/20081230121412669439.html

Moderator: Readers, once again we ask you to please refrain from posting links to other sites. The purpose of the discussion board is for you to post your opinions. Posting links to old stories or propaganda sites is pointless.

likeitis,

There have been many border closings on the part of Israel and Egypt as a response to violence in Gaza. Are you seriously expecting me to recount each and every one of them for you? To what end? Are you saying the border closings are and were not a response to violence or the threat of violence? If so, you are mistaken...

The reality is that both Egypt and Israel have imposed border closings, blockades and sanctions (I don't see much of a different in any of these except for the language quite frankly...) for years. In fact, Egypt imposed them for the entire time they controlled Gaza...

There have been many border closings on the part of Israel and Egypt as a response to violence in Gaza. Are you seriously expecting me to recount each and every one of them for you?

I just want to know which one or ones you had in mind when you said violence closed the borders. Pick one.

You were perfectly willing to come up with a clear and specific excuse for Israel closing the border before Gaza was returned. Stop dodging.

Are you saying the border closings are and were not a response to violence or the threat of violence?

Are you saying a pre-emptive blocade of another's sovereign territory is A-OK?

Don't bring Egypt into this. Egypt can close its own border with Gaza strip whenever it likes.

sabiwabi,

Yes, I am sure. The border of Gaza and Egypt was free and controlled by the Palestinian Authority in 2005. That fact that you even try to dispute this when even Hamas would not shows that you are not interested in discussing facts.

likeitis,

Not dodging. It is just that you are asking questions just to pass the time when you can easily find the answers yourself...

One example: The Rafah crossing was closed in June of 2006 after Palestinians attacked an Israeli border post and kidnapped a soldier.

Now, do I get a cookie?

Don't bring Egypt into this. Egypt can close its own border with Gaza strip whenever it likes.

Sorry, that is a strange response. Egypt is and always was 'in this'. They also share a border and the reasons for their closures are the same as Israel's, violence and fears of violence...

Likeitis, and in June of 2007, Al Jezeera in a news story wrote:

"The Palestinian Authority has released video footage that it says proves Hamas attempted to assassinate Mahmoud Abbas, the president... Abbas is considering calling a new election to solidify his standing... (Hamas) may even try to disrupt voting... Anti-Abbas sentiment is on the rise among Hamas members, with his Gaza compound looted and his effigy burned by demonstrators... Arab leaders who have pledged their support to his (Palestinian) emergency government."

Likeitis, now we all now what happened next: Hamas went after and murdered elected Fatah government officials. Nothin' I've said is inaccurate.

If you're sayin' the Palestinian government was elected in 2006 and was murdered after that, I'm now gonna quibble. The point is made.

You can have all the links you request just by Googlin' "Hamas... murder... Palestinian... government..." and other words like that. I gave you an Al Jazeera link 'cause even though they're well known for their pro-Israeli stance, the piece still seemed fair and balanced. Since you demand links and 'links' seem to constitute 'proof' for you, there are many others out there. I thought the Wikipedia one was good, too.

"not gonna quibble"

hassanfakiri: The Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip began immediately after Hamas won the legislative election in January 2006. Hamas had repeatedly said it was willing and ready to stop all firing of projectiles from Gaza if only Israel would lift the deadly blockade.

Hamas was elected in January 2006. The Israeli/Egyptian blockade was initiated in June 2007.

Hamas was elected in January 2006. The Israeli/Egyptian blockade was initiated in June 2007.

The Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip began immediately after Hamas won the legislative election in January 2006.

January 25, 2006: Hamas wins Palestinian general elections

March 18, 2006: Israel boycott the new Hamas government in Gaza, punishing the civilian population with a suspension of all economic ties and reduced humanitarian aid putting tremendous pressure on the already devastated Palestinian economy.

March 15, 2007: Palestinians reach agreement on unity government between Hamas and Fatah, which is continually undermined by ongoing U.S. and Israeli actions.

June 15, 2007: Hamas crushes Fatah forces in Gaza after fatah backed by US and Israel try to over throw Hamas in a coup. Fatah loses all governing power in the Gaza Strip. Israel strengthens its enforcement of the Gaza blockade. Main Sources of Information: Reuters News, Wikipedia, Times Online

Hassanfakiri, Hamas won a majority of seats in the government.

That wasn't enough for them. They then began murderin' those that held the Fatah government seats.

The world - not just Israel - watched.

That wasn't enough for them. They then began murderin' those that held the Fatah government seats.

Wrong! The fault lies with Israel and US who show no respect for democracy. Eventhough Fatah had lost the elections and eventhough Hamas had agreed to form a coallition with Fatah, Israel still did not want to accept the election results and within some elements of Fatah tried to over throw Hamas by force but failed.

Shortly after the elections Israel started kidnapping Hamas members who were in the parlament and many even today are in Israeli prisons without being charged for a crime.

Israel used to support Hamas in the 80s when PLO was the strongest Palestinian resistance movemement and Hamas did not become Israels prime enemy until Hamas had become the most powerful resistance movement.

Hassanfakiri, please allow Hamas to take responsibility for their terrorism.

The Evile US and Israel Beast didn't make Hamas do anything.

Hamas annihilated Fatah; Fatah didn't wipe out Hamas.

THe Nurderous machine called the Israeli army is slaughtering as we speaqk. Strewth, we have people on here defending them 100% and not giving a damn abaht all the dead and the infrastructure destroyed.

What is wrong with people, especially the Yanks (not all but most), who back up anythink Israel does. If they used chemical weapons them lot would find a way of justifying it. Gawd, it is beyond belief!

Can'T America do the right thing and force Israel to act with some decency, all this does at the moment, is make the US and Israel resented more in the muslim world. Shooting yourself in the foot as they used to say innit!

I agree with adaydream and AlfGarnett.

Israel is destroying the last remnants of sympathy the world may hevae for it.

The Evile US and Israel Beast didn't make Hamas do anything.

Living in dreamland still I see. Go to The Guardian's news site today and you will see tragic footage of the bodies of three Palestinian babies killed by an Israeli missile today. Their mother died too. Hamas are responsible, as is Israel for murdering civilians. But whilst there are arguments for Hamas (they believe in fighting Israel for their land and for atrocities caused by Israel), and arguments for Israel (they believe that by firing missiles into civilian homes they are protecting their people from Hamas rockets), there is absolutely no excuse for the US. Who vetoed the UN vote calling for a ceasefire and for their continued political games and military support in that area. If you have children go and take a look at The Guardian's footage. If you don't have children of your own then you may not understand how I felt when I saw it.

There will be no peace until Hamas stops intentionally targetting Israeli civilians, stops using their own civilians as human shields and stops seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations.

Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves the right to every nation to engage in self-defense against armed attacks.

Until the United Nation and the international community uphold its own Articles, the bloodshed will continue. Unfortunately Hamas has its enablers and its these people that give Hamas a glimmer of hope at meeting their true objective, the elimination of Israel.

Northlondon, it's a childish view of the world if you believe innocents don't get killed in war. It's an untrue view of the world if you believe the Israelis are purposefully or indiscriminately targetin' innocents.

Your consistent fallacy of logic argumentum ad misericordiam, also called "appeal to pity", doesn't win any argument. I'm not gonna necessarily agree with someone because they're tryin' to make me cry. Adults don't do that.

The facts are Hamas brought this on and you blame others. I accept this. This is real.

Alfie Garnett, we'll agree on this topic because neither of us are American. Israel and the US won't lift a finger because a) Israel receives at least $3 billion a year from the US and b) in return the US gets it's 51st state in the Middle East (Iraq is it's 52nd state).

it's a childish view of the world if you believe innocents don't get killed in war.

And it's a weak and pathetic view when you have the power to force a ceasefire and save those lives, but care more about your 51st state in the Middle East (Israel). The American government and it's military are a weak and pathetic bunch of barbarians and my weak and pathetic government (the British) should have said that to the US years ago.

There will be no peace until Hamas stops intentionally targetting Israeli civilians, stops using their own civilians as human shields and stops seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations.

Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves the right to every nation to engage in self-defense against armed attacks.

Hamas did stop firing home made rockets but Israel did not lift the criminal seige which is a violation to the Geneva Conventions. Speaking of the UN. UN resolution 242 which was unanimously adpoted by the Security Council including USA states that Israel have to retreat to the 1967 borders which means that Israel has no right to be occupying West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza.

The best way to restore a cease fire will be that Hamas promises to stop firing rockets and Israel agrees to lift the criminal blockade. Hamas has said time after time that it will stop firing rockets when Israel lifts the blockade.

Northlondon, if you're interested, you can read the Hamas 'constitution' or whatever they call it as I did.

In that regard, nothin' anyone does now or in the future is gonna make Hamas stop. You can ascribe all the mystical powers to the US and Israel as you're doin' in your latest post but nothin' we or they do is gonna work.

Israel receives at least $3 billion a year from the US

Don't forget the extra one time gift $195,000,000.00 that the US gave Isreal, also, above and beyond the $30 Billion for 10 years given by the GOP. < :-)

you can read the Hamas 'constitution' or whatever they call it as I did.

Why read the constitution, remember posts are supposed to be opinions, not facts. At least that's what the moderators want, correct? < :-)

Northlondon, it's a childish view of the world if you believe innocents don't get killed in war.

And do you know what makes me laugh ? After the US government backs the Israeli military with arms and funding, after the Israeli government blows up Palestinian children, after Iraqi children were blown up during the US invasion of Baghdad, after Israel tightens it's economic starvation of Gaza, the US and Israel wonders why young Muslim men are easily brainwashed into joining terrorist outfits and go out and attack western targets. The American government and the Israelis cry to the rest of the world about terrorist attrocities committed against them and you just don't get it do you ? And then you want the rest of the world to give you sympathy. My people in London were murdered by terrorists because my government were stupid enough to believe in Bush's doctrine and his personal war against Iraq. And it's about time that the rest of the world took a sensible approach such as that by the Spanish and the French an not risk it's own people just for American economic favours.

i agree with northlondon: The hatred towards the US and Israel is because of these invasions and the callous way innocents are treated.

Even USARonin the most patriotic goddone guy on here can disagree with that, yessiree!

the latest on CNN is some Palestinians are accusing Israel of targeting anyone. These are the same people that sing and dance and fire automatic weapons in the air and hold aloft their babies dressed in martyr fatigues when a suicide bomber destroys a bus load of Israeli civilians. The Arab world are united in their chants of death to Israel and united in their chants of how dare they when a provoked Israel lets loose.

USARonin: "Adaydream, postin' links on subjects as politics here rarely proves anythings. It's still some writer's point of view based on his beliefs, if not purposeful propaganda. I agree that postin' links is for the most part a huge waste of effort and "proves" nothing. Guaranteed, I can match any poster link for link."

You're hilarious, as usual, my friend. When we post something, you call it nothing but opinion and not fact. When we back it up with facts you get upset and call it plagiarizing of others' work, then you get even MADDER you call it simply stealing someone else's opinion. And yet, whenever your ilk comes on and posts all sorts of links from personal BLOGS you guys defend it up and down as being 'proof' of this and that. I went back and read the little spat you were having with Buttamimi again and chuckled as I watched you, unable to counter a single argument except with questions, get angry when Buttamimi answered them flat out. Sure, he used another person's information, but he hit it bang on with dates in direct answer to what you demanded he give. Then you called him names for 'stealing someone else's work' and said it has to be referenced. Then when you got more upset you simply said it was opinion (despite it being mostly dates, which are factual).

Anyway, sorry, my friend, but clearly you canNOT match anyone at all in information gathering, or 'stealing', if you will. All you ever seem to do is what I am doing to you now -- go off topic to point out something unrelated in an attempt to undermine what the person is arguing. I know I'm doing this now, as you surely know that you do when you cannot address other people's posts on the thread, for the most part.

And what's with the lame accent you throw in once in a while before you get pouty?

I mirror what was said before: links at times provide essential information (and the sources you demanded before, USARonin, lest someone's comment be 'plagiarism'!) to back up arguments, and can provide facts. True, some simply rehash opinion or propaganda, as we saw constantly from Lunch Meat, Lunch Meat2, Lunch MeatII, Jambon, TooLongGone, and whatever other handles he had. BUT, in many more cases the links, provided that they are SUPPLEMENTS FOR and not SUBSTITUTES, can be very integral to the conversation.

Anyway, kiddies, keep it real. I'm going to stay out of this one, for the most part, as I've stated my opinions here and on yesterday's thread in excess.

Oh, and Ronin, you were right in calling me up on my 'BIGGEST EVER' comment. I do believe they had more troops overall in the 1967 attack on Gaza. I think the aerial bombardment and prep in this case were bigger, however, to prevent the hard lessons they learned in that war when they went in much more quickly.

and the callous way innocents are treated.

Thenewfront, I acutally agree with you. Hamas should stop, but they're not gonna.

bobbafett: I agree with parts of your statement. I disagree that they have no valid claims on Israel, because they DO on the parts of Israel that the latter kept after the 1967 war; that is Palestinian land. And while Hamas certainly has no right to be calling Israel indiscriminate killers, they DO have a right to bring it to the public's attention. It may be hypocritical of them, but for us we have a right to see what's going on and to realize exactly what you said -- that Israel SHOULD be on the high-road on this one, and their taking innocent little lives lowers the level of sympathy.

Beyond that, my only other point is simply your reason for not feeling sympathy for Palestinians being based solely on them being 'new' (while the Jews are old). Not really all that great a reason, in my books.

and their taking innocent little lives lowers the level of sympathy.

smithinjapan right on the button. I hope that Hamas burn in hell. But these children have Israeli/ American shrapnel in their bodies and that's plain fact.

northlondon: Good post, You betcha!!

Israel and the US , the mosted hated countries on earth. How queer, wonder if it their record as killers that makes them so despised?

I reckon its funny reading us Brits, who by the way, use our loaf constructive like, showing the Right wing Americans and Israeli lovers the truth.

The non stop slaughter and America refusing to agree to the ceasefire, showed the world what savages both them countries are and that.

Blimey, seems like some geezers on here is as brainwashed as taht North Korean bunch.

Even Sky News is saying Israel is going overboard with their killing of innocents, strewth i agree.

Okay back to the article.

My opinion, which is what JT wants, is that Isreal is an American killing machine. Isreal is funded by terrorist to kill innocent Palestineans. Isreal is intending to steal Gaza from the Palestineans at some point.

Isreal will let us know when they have murdered enough Palestineans. Trust them.

B/S < :-)

I aint inAmerica either, i am in Britain, Her MajestY'sUnited Kingdom, and we are getting bloody cheesed off with the way America and it's Jewish bully boy mate is killing innocents worldwide.

They is only going into Gaza for fun. The more they kill, the better they feel, and the soldiers, well the say "I was only obeying me oreders and that". Remeber thats what the bad ones said after WWII.

Israel will be shunned even more than it is already and i predict, that Jews , innocent Jews nay i add, in otehr countries wil be attacked as revenge to Israels brutality. Think about it, makes sense dunnit?

Why read the constitution, remember posts are supposed to be opinions, not facts.

Too many facts and the truth might get out.

Hamas has said time after time that it will stop firing rockets when Israel lifts the blockade.

I really should have been paying more attention to this blockade sooner. I guess I have a tendency to ignore the Israel and Palestine issue because it is a mess and fraught with liars on both sides.

Is it really that simple? I will have to do some investigations into that. But when I do, don't anybody ask me for proof. Posting proof would close the door to you accusing me of making stuff up, and what would the fun be in that?

High five adaydream.

Some people support Israel´s onslaught while others criticize Israel yet do not support Hamas.

I support Hamas and believe the millitary wing has every good reason to be resisting the IOF by any means. If Hamas was a terrorist organization it would probably have targeted USA but Hamas never does any operation outside historic Palestine. If a suicide bomber targeted USA, I would not be angry or happy just like when Al Qaida smashed into WTC, I just shrugged my shoulders thinking they had it coming. I was amazed how easily Americans cracked though. I thought to myself they had weak character the same with israelis who crack under pressure from some non dangerous home made rockets. In contrast the Palestinians do not crack under pressure and keep resisting the Nazi like occupation.

Israel can’t destroy Hamas, The reason for that is simple. The resistance is not a “cause” but an “effect.” The “cause” is the occupation of Palestine which seeks to complete what Israel started in 1948, to exterminate and ethnic cleanse the indigenus Palestinians from her native land in order to replace them with Jewish immigrants from around the world. Israel can’t eliminate the effect as long as the cause remains.

adaydream,

Israel has never been interested in keeping Gaza, neither has Egypt for that matter. It has little or no historical or cultural importance and neither is interested in the influx of Palestinian that keeping Gaza would mean. Were they interested in keeping Gaza they would have annexed it a long time ago.

Simply put, Hamas should stop firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Then they should talk about peace together...nothing else will work...

kinniku: "Simply put, Hamas should stop firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Then they should talk about peace together...nothing else will work..."

Not going to work that way either, I'm afraid, and you're wrong. It's not the 'only' thing that's going to work.

Here's how it's going to happen: the UN, spear-headed by France is going to apply international pressure on Israel for a cease-fire. The US is going to simply sit on its hands and avoid any answer to questions about Israel's use of force, opting instead to, like you, say it's all up to Israel. In the end I think that there will be enough pressure for Israel to agree on a cease-fire if international monitors are put in place to see that it remains a cease-fire (well, they won't be allowed to monitor Israeli actions because those will be 'classified', but they'll certainly have to look for Palestinian rockets!), while I think Hamas will agree to that, too.

That's the short run. In the long run Israel is going to have to face the fact that they need to give up the land they took and have tried to annex after the 1967 war. IF they do that, which will NOT be easy (either to admit and agree to, or actually have the people that have been there for 30 years suddenly up and move out), and lift the blockade, Hamas may actually be able to keep people from firing rockets. If they don't agree to that soon after a cease-fire, and refuse to lift the blockade, the rockets will most certainly be fired again.

This is not a one-sided issue, kinniku. It's not simply 'if the Palestinians stop, so will we' and more than it's a 'if the Israelis cease-fire, so will we' issue. It takes TWO for peace even moreso than it takes two to make war.

Simply put, Hamas should stop firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Then they should talk about peace together...nothing else will work...

Hamas did not fire a single rocket before Israel put the blockade on Gaza against the Geneva Conventions. Hamas has only been saying that if you want Hamas to stop firing rockets then lift the criminal blockade.

Israel is already panicing and trying to find a political exit to this but they can´t. Despite the massacres Hamas as exhausted as they might be will claim victory. It is a resistance par excellence who never will sell out on Palestinian rights. The indigenus Palestinians were terrorised, ethnic cleansed form their mother land and Hamas will never forget this historic fact and neither should anyone else.

adaydream: Isreal is an American killing machine. Isreal is funded by terrorist to kill innocent Palestineans.

Did you fire your AK-47 into the air when you said that? heh

Honestly...daydream...when people can't tell your words apart from Hamas, it's about time to take it down a notch.

smithinjapan,

Sorry but you are mistaken on many fronts. One: If Hamas does not agree to take part in serious negotiations, there will not be peace. Two: I never said Israel would not have to give up land (What is it with people commenting about things not written? This is especially true whenever anyone makes a comment negative towards Hamas...)I am on record here many times saying a believe in the creation of a Palestinian state.

Nothing you have written contradicts what I have written, the length of your post notwithstanding. However, I think it is highly unrealistic to expect Israel to move off of all of the land captured in 1967 (this will never happen, there will need to be compromise on the Palestinian side regarding the final borders) before rockets stop being fired...Hamas and Israel need to be willing to enter into negotiations for a lasting peace. For that to happen, the violence must end on both sides.

However, I think it is highly unrealistic to expect Israel to move off of all of the land captured in 1967

Did someone force israel to make illeagal settlements in West bank and Jerusalem? Why is it that US voted in favour of a full Israel retreat to the 67 borders in the UN Security Council yet support the illeagal occupation of Gaza, West Bank and the illeagal new settlements. Do not you think Americans are lying hypocrites with double morals kinniku?

hassan,

Actually, the resolution does not call for the return of all the land captured.

As far as being forced to make settlements, yes in a manner of speaking Israel was forced to to prevent attacks by the surrounding countries. That was one of the main reasons for the settlements. Then when land has been given back, the settlements are dismantled as they have been in Gaza and the Sinai.

Is it just me or do the Palestinian supporters offer mostly vitriol? I don't see much in the way of reasoned arguments. They seem to think it's a competition to see who can create the most inflammatory comments about Israel. Then I guess from there we'll start working on a peace deal? heh

Seriously....we have conspiracy theorists, people who claim genocide, people who claim that Israel just really likes killin' them Arabs, people who can't debate past 1948, and now we're actually getting Americans who are lifting press releases from Hamas' website and passing them off as their own.

...and these are people who are going to lead us to peace in the Middle East? If you guys didn't sound so uneducated and offered something other than rage then you might make some progress.

Maybe ;)

Actually, the resolution does not call for the return of all the land captured.

Actually it does. Every new settlement is therefore illeagal according to international law which also US agreed to. Keep on living in denial.

As far as being forced to make settlements, yes in a manner of speaking Israel was forced to to prevent attacks by the surrounding countries. That was one of the main reasons for the settlements

So you are saying that Israel had to make settlements in Jerusalem in order for Israel to defend themselves from new countries. You have not done anything but coming with one new lie after an another on this thread and now you are just being silly. Whats next? You are going to say Israel is not an apartheid state and Nelson Mandela is wrong to label israel an apartheid state? Are there any other racist ethnic cleansing states which practice severe racial discrimination which you support or is it only Israel?

SuperLib I love it.

Is it just me or do the Palestinian supporters offer mostly vitriol? I don't see much in the way of reasoned arguments.

And all ther pro-Isreal statements are so relavant and truthful?

Right. < :-)

"Israelis"

"Palestinians"

Humans who have distorted views of history and twisted beliefs, and do not know how to treat each other.

hassan,

Actually it does.

No, it does not. I don't have time to look up the exact words, but it does not...

So you are saying that Israel had to make settlements in Jerusalem in order for Israel to defend themselves from new countries.

I don't know what "new countries" you are talking about...

In fact, I am not really sure about a lot of what you are going on about...

All I know is you seem to want the hatred and anger to continue and I am sick of these two nations and their fighting and I am sick of people defending it...Hamas has not suggested they want a real and true peace and their actions have certainly not shown that they do either...

This could be settled with Israel complying with the UN Resolutions and International Law. Israel believes God gave them the land, but I didn't know that God was in the Realestate business. The Jewish community constantly attempts to remind the world of the holocaust, and I can accept this but unfortunately Israel is doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews.

Hamas has said time after time that it will stop firing rockets when Israel lifts the blockade.

In fact, Hamas has said it would agree to a ceasefire if the blockade restrictions were merely eased.

Verified that with two sources, despite the fact that nothing is reliable, no matter how many citations it comes with, or how many people are watching and cross checking.

Next I need to research just how bad this blockade has been. But I think it should be obvious to all just who is under whose thumb here. And it should also be obvious that next to nobody likes to be under anybody's thumb.

As far as being forced to make settlements, yes in a manner of speaking Israel was forced to to prevent attacks by the surrounding countries. That was one of the main reasons for the settlements.

A garrison would be one thing. A settlement is quite another. So is annexation. hassanfakiri is right. That assertion is silly. There is a way to go about defending yourself, and booting people off their land and moving your families in is not it.

I give Israel credit for returning Sinai. Gaza strip could have been either not done in good faith or viewed as a work in process, but a step in the right direction. But there is so much else that Israel is still coming up quite in the negative. They got a looooong way to go.

kinniku -

Simply put, Hamas should stop firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Then they should talk about peace together...nothing else will work...

Isreal is the one who broke the cease fire. I've been posting links the past couple of days that support this, but people so believe Isreal and the United States lead.

Hamas has been using the six month ceasefire to increase the range of the rockets they fire into Israel.

No they have used the past 6 months to try to starve the Palestineans to death.

the vessel mentioned above was entering Israeli water without permission and it is alleged the boat did not respond to radio contact from the Israelis...

So is there any Gazan water or has Isreal stolen all of the coast line as Isreali property?

The fact that the site sabiwabi links is anti-Israel and prints obvious falsehoods is important to people who actually care about the truth...

But your truths are true and everyone else's links are lies? Please!!

Your links are just pro-Isreal and lies also.

You post of

Israel has never been interested in keeping Gaza

That's why Isreal put settlements in Palestinean territory.

But that's only my opinion and that's what JT wants. They don't want facts, that erodes the postings down to truths and truths get no real responces. Now baseless accusations by posters, not neccessarily yours kinniku, allow for more imagination and untruths. < :-)

Seems like the Allies are sidin' with Israel on this one.

-France's 'Sarkozy the American', too. Tres bien.

People should all realize that Israel is never going to give the Palestinians a state of their own, no matter how hard and honourably they fight. All the Israeli talks of "two states for two people" is a lie.

I think that by fighting the Israelis, the Palestinians are playing into the hands of the Israeli strategists. This attack on Gaza has been planned many years ago, and like always, the Palestinians acted and reacted exactly like the Israeli strategists thought they will:

The only solution is for the Palestinians to start migrating into Israel, in their thousands, and getting Israeli citizenship and citizen rights. Once they are Israeli citizens, they can start their own political parties, inside Israel, and fight the Israeli occupation through legal means and change the discriminating laws inside of Israel.

Seems like the Allies are sidin' with Israel on this one.

The UNSC wanted a cease fire but US vetoed so you comment is false just like everything else you have said on this thread. An intelligent person learn from his mistakes an idiot does not and that is what makes a person an idiot.

Hassanfakiri, don't say "Palestinians" are fightin' the Israelis.

They were on the road to real progress until Hamas started their provocations.

What you suggest in your last paragraph is not a bad strategy though. They did that to the UK and now they have Sharia Law. Did you come up with that yourself, or are you followin' the model of what is bein' done to England as we converse?

Isreal is the one who broke the cease fire.

I have not seen the links you are talking about, so I can't speak to them. However, Hamas had refused to continue this last cease fire. Israel claimed they were willing to continue it.

No they have used the past 6 months to try to starve the Palestineans to death.

Yes, I suppose that is true. Hamas did essentially try to starve their own people to death by continuing to refuse to seriously consider peace over the time of the cease fire.

So is there any Gazan water or has Isreal stolen all of the coast line as Isreali property?

Right now, Israel controls the waters surrounding Gaza. Like it or not, it is a fact...

But your truths are true and everyone else's links are lies? Please!!

Your links are just pro-Isreal and lies also.

What links of mine are "pro-Israeli" and specifically what links are lies, please? If you cannot provide an answer to this question, it is you who is 'lying'.

That's why Isreal put settlements in Palestinean territory.

They also had settlements in Sinai. All those in Gaza and Sinai are gone...with more serious negotiations all would be gone...

USARonin: Strewth, don't you ever give up you trying to convince us that Israel is a poor little victim defending itself? Blimey, just fink for yourself not what comes out of Sean Hannity's cake hole.

The world apart from the "peace loving" Americans want an end to the slaughter. The Americans want Israel to carry on wiv destroying the arabs.

Don't get me wrong, i don't pick side on things like this, but even a simpleton can tell Israel is killing hundreds of innocents. Gawd, even a little kid can see that.

Why Israel is Attacking Gaza Now: “They Want It To Be Over Before The Next Administration Comes In” Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. According to the sources, Barak maintained that although the lull would allow Hamas to prepare for a showdown with Israel, the Israeli army needed time to prepare, as well.

Therefore, it is certain that Israel's massacre in Gaza is not related to any specific recent rocket attacks by Hamas.

So why did Israel choose this moment to attack Gaza? Well, the Bush administration will be out in mere weeks. And while Obama has made nice with AIPAC and Israeli interests, Israel isn't sure that he will be as acommodating as the current administration. The Israeli decision to launch the attacks on Gaza was a political, not security, decision. Just a day or two before the airstrikes, it was Israel that rejected Hamas’s diplomatic initiative aimed at extending the six-month-long ceasefire that had frayed but largely stayed together since June, and that expired 26 December. Hamas officials, working through Egyptian mediators, had urged Israel to lift the siege of Gaza as the basis for continuing an extended ceasefire. Israel, including Foreign Minister Tsipi Livni, of the “centrist” (in the Israeli context) Kadima Party, rejected the proposal. Livni, who went to Egypt but refused to seriously consider the Hamas offer, is running in a tight race for prime minister; her top opponent is the further-right Benyamin Netanyahu of the officially hawkish Likud party, who has campaigned against Livni and the Kadima government for their alleged “soft” approach to the Palestinians. With elections looming in February, no candidate can afford to appear anything but super-militaristic. Further, it is certain that the Israeli government was eager to move militarily while Bush was still in office. The Washington Post quoted a Bush administration official saying that Israel struck in Gaza “because they want it to be over before the next administration comes in. They can’t predict how the next administration will handle it. And this is not the way they want to start with the new administration.”

USARonin: Here, stop telling porkies because you can't win the argument.

I see you say "homicide bombers", only Fox News stll uses that immature name. Be a big fella, admit you was wrong. We won'T laugh at you or even take the mick. You know as well as we all do, that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity, even Brown is demanding a ceasefire, and he's got to the recession worry abaht.

Strewth, the sooner Americans and Israeli's stop confusing patriotism with blindly following the extreme right, then we may have peace, and little arab kiddies can sleep soundly at night, without fear.

Any other ethnic cleansers you support Ronin?

Isreal is marching into Gaza, killing and maiming on their way in. A country so small and defenseless that Isreal's are killing citizens, Hamas or anybody else; there have no where to hide, have no military installation except their homes.

Isreal is laying the ground work right now to systematically murder as many Gazans as possible. The US gave Isreal $$$$$ and they need to do is to spend it. This is military aid. If you don't kill, if you don't maim, if you don't use those US bought and paid for weapons, you don't get anymore.

Isreal can't slap Lebanon around, Hizbollah would love that, so they attack Gaza. Even breaking the cease fire. < :-)

adaydream,

I am aware of this story from the Guardian. However I did not realize that this is what you were referring to when you mentioned breaking the cease fire. From your Guardian link:

The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away.

If Israel is correct and Hamas was planning to use the tunnel to capture soldiers (as they have in the past) this would be considered breaking the cease fire as well. Anyway, Hamas then fired rockets and both sides announced they wanted calm. So, the "breaking of the cease fire" had nothing to do with it not being renewed in December.

Now, could you please provide me with the pro-Israeli links and lies I have supposedly used? If not, an apology would also suffice...

The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away.

I call the above statement a lie. But that's my opinion.

< :-)

kinniku - If Palestine was right and Isreal was murdering your words now; (as they have in the past) this would be considered breaking the cease fire as well.

There were two cross border murders. Is Isreal sup[posed to just take it.

Both sides have their rights and wrongs. Both sides have their supporters and critics. But until they are both grabbed up by the scruff of the neck, sat back down, a viable truce written and enforced by neutral sides and both sides are forced to adhere to the truce this is going to go on for another 40/50 years.

And then the same thing will be going on.

The United States can't just sit on it's hands and say, "we agree with Isreal" and give them another $$$$$. We join other countries and make both sides become nice.

Question - Wouldn't it be cheaper to give both countries aid "from a UN fund for lack of another discription" and have peace on both sides. The cost of a mutually brokered military force just be that buffer for a few years. I'm not talking occupation. I'm not talking 99 military bases established. I'm talking the universal comminity just stepping between this conflict and forcing peace where it was 2 weeks ago.

But then that just my opinion. Not a link involved. < :-)

Israel is doing its duty by protecting its people against terrorists, wo wish to see Israel destroyed and all Jews killed.

So you think Hamas are the good guys?

USAR

Ontherecord, I agree with your first sentence.

Hassanfakiri, Adaydream, Northlondon, Thenewfront, Likeitis and numerous others don't. They believe Hamas are the good guys and defend the Hamas position a lot.

For the record, Hamas are bad guys, neither good for Israel nor the Palestinians.

Come down on one side or the other. Any white feather can sit on the fence.

Why choose a side, both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong. This entire war has been prolonged for far to long by the chickenhacks of the international community(supporting both sides), and has turned into a proxy war for many nations at the cost of Israeli and Palestinian lives.

Good Jorb your 5:27 post was pretty damn correct. < :-)

adaydream,

You have really disappointed me. Although I have not always agreed with you, I have read what you have written with interest. However, in this thread you specifically accused me of linking pro-Israeli sites and lies. Your answer is that the BBC and other such sites (which you use) are lies? You see, you have decided to defend another poster who has specifically linked specifically provable lies and racist website. I have never done any such thing.

Sorry that should have been 'racist websites' for it has certainly not been one.

kinniku - Somewhere I've offended you. Maybe you misunderstood me or I mis-spoke.

My apology. I'm not going to continue this arguement. < :-)

Moderator: Back on topic please.

Well, Rubber, you still sittin' on the fence and that's easier than makin' a decision.

I did make a decision, I said that both sides are wrong. Call it sitting on a fence if you wish but that is not going to the change the underlaying truth of my statement.

Goodjorb, this thing is a mess, but if you can't say one side is more right than the other, or one side is more bad than the other, then you choose to be nowhere on the issue.

I believe killin' human beans as a general concept is a bad thing but that's not enough. The Western philosophy of usin' lethal force to prevent the use of lethal force is considered moral. I agree with that.

The Western philosophy of usin' lethal force to prevent the use of lethal force is considered moral. I agree with that.

But what happens when third parties start pushing you to escalate the situation, would this really be that big of problem if International community never intervened, never gave either side weapons and said if you two have a beef with each that is your problem, you two deal with it.

Adamwesti: with Israel complying with the UN Resolutions and International Law

I always get a kick out of hearing people quote international law as a way to protect the rights of terrorists...

likeitis: In fact, Hamas has said it would agree to a ceasefire if the blockade restrictions were merely eased.

Rockets have been fired into Israel every month without fail since 2002. You'd be a fool to think that opening the borders is the solution without any indication from Hamas or the militants that they've even able to stop.

adaydream: Isreal is the one who broke the cease fire. I've been posting links the past couple of days that support this, but people so believe Isreal and the United States lead.

I think I might have seen some links posted somewhere between your pro-Hamas messages. But in reality you just mention an attack by Israel while ignoring the fact that it was done in response to Hamas being caught digging tunnels under Gaza into Israel, which is a bit of a hot button since the last tunnels they dug were used to capture an Israeli soldier who they still hold.

Also, you might find that posting message such as "Israel is a baby killing terrorist state who wants to kill all Arabs out of sheer joy" will make the reader see you as a hothead who isn't worth responding to. If you want to have more of an impact then drop the hysterical rhetoric and talk like an educated person.

daydreams slow decent into madness...heh:

"The US gave Isreal $$$$$ and they need to do is to spend it. This is military aid. If you don't kill, if you don't maim, if you don't use those US bought and paid for weapons, you don't get anymore."

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire and international monitors to see if both sides are complying with the cease fire.

Does anyone have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with it. I think its a perfectly reasonable position. Hamas wouldn't be able to fire off any more rockets, murdering and terrorizing Israel, the people of Gaza would have peace, the borders would open, and they might be able to actually get jobs and work, improving their lives. Of course they will still blame Israel, still be taught that the best thing they can do is to murder a Jew. But it would be a start at least.

World opinion and the JT survey shows that those who think Israel is going about this in the wrong way are by far in the majority; all you Israel does no wrong are getting wet and as that which you pass blows back in your face. Enjoy.

YangYong,

The thing is...I haven't seen anyone here on this thread write anything at all like "Israel does no wrong". In fact, I don't believe I have seen anyone on this thread write that the state of Palestine does not have a right to exist or even that Hamas does not have a right to lead the Palestinians. However, I certainly have seen quite a number of posts hinting or outright suggesting Israel does not have a right to exist...

In my case, I believe in the two States living peacefully (a real peace NOT a temporary truce) and I have believed that both sides should be forced into such a solution. However, Hamas has taken the position of temporary (sometimes suggesting ten years, but 'temporary' nonetheless) truces. My problem with Hamas is their lack of desire to even negotiate with Israel. This is the same tack Arafat took for many years...It is also the same tack the 'conservative' parties in Israel often take...

Both sides need to realize the other side is not going anywhere and need to realize they are truly only better off under peace...

You wrote that there were other ways that Israel could have solve the rocket/Hamas problem. The problem is when they carry out assassinations or other such operations, they are blamed any way. (Witness complaints about stopping Hamas tunneling above) So, it is possible the Israeli government figured they would just stop Hamas more completely.

You wrote that you were shocked that I was satisfied (Sorry, I don't remember your actual words and I can't be bother to save this to check) with some civilian deaths. I never said I was. I am saddened by even one death on either side...That is why both sides need to make peace...I am one of the few on JT who has consistently defended both sides of this discussion. Sad, when I have mentioned even the slightest sympathy for either side, I get attacked by the other side...I think that is the biggest problem. The inability to see the other side...

The Palestinians deserve a nation and they deserve it now. Hamas' actions do not get them this nation now. That is a disservice to their people...The Palestinians have much more to lose in this. I wish Hamas would see this...

kinniku

the vessel mentioned above was entering Israeli water without permission and it is alleged the boat did not respond to radio contact from the Israelis...

And you continue to believe everything Israel says. Anyway, how many times have you stated that Israel left Gaza and handed control of the border to the Palestinian Authority? So now its Israeli water! Why isn't it Gazan or Palestinian water?

This should have been the beginning of better days for the Palestinians of Gaza. Instead we have Hamas still hoping to 'destroy' Israel.

No, Hamas just wants its people to get food, medicine, fuel, electricity, freedom … Since you seem to trust CNN, I’ve heard CNN’s Christiane Amanpour state numerous times that Israel has been strangling Gaza for the past 3 years ever since they elected Hamas. Israel is bullying Palestinians to vote for who Israel wants. This has nothing to do with Israel protecting its people.

sabiwabi,

And you continue to believe everything Israel says.

Ummm...I wrote it is alleged boat did not respond. How is that 'believing everything Israel says? In addition, the boat was attempting to enter Israeli controlled waters. Nobody disputes this, except maybe you.

Anyway, how many times have you stated that Israel left Gaza and handed control of the border to the Palestinian Authority? So now its Israeli water! Why isn't it Gazan or Palestinian water?

Israel did leave Gaza and did hand control of the border over to the Palestinian Authority. I never wrote they handed over control of the sea or air. Negotiations were in the works for sea and air control. As far as why it isn't Gazan or Palestinian water, hopefully it will be someday. However, I did not write anything incorrect. Nice try though...not.

No, Hamas just wants its people to get food, medicine, fuel, electricity, freedom …

If that is all they wanted, I would be wearing a Hamas T-shirt 24 hours a day...however, the fact remains that Hamas did use the cease fire to improve their rocket technology.

Since you seem to trust CNN, I’ve heard CNN’s Christiane Amanpour state numerous times that Israel has been strangling Gaza for the past 3 years ever since they elected Hamas.

Yes, Israel and much of the world has been punishing the Palestinians for their choice of Hamas...I do not agree with a complete blockade personally, especially regarding food and medical supplies. However, I do agree with those who are against Hamas. I do not think they have had the future of the Palestinian people as their primary goals. I do think countries have a right to boycott other countries they disagree with. Just as other countries have a right to support those they agree with.

This particular conflict (the one going on right now in Gaza) could have been prevented if both sides were willing to continue to abide by the ceasefire and were willing to start really talking to each other. Unfortunately, there will always be people like yourself who would be against this...

Yeah, when the people of Gaza, chose to support a terrorist group, whose primary goal and aim is the destruction of Israel, and the murdering of Jews, its hard to be sympathetic. Particularly when this same group is doing everything it can to smuggle in weapons to help them murder more people. They don't particularly care about the Palestian people. Oh, they may talk a good game, but if they truly cared, they would sit down and negotiate a real peace.

Muscles: Obviously you haven''t been reading all the posts, here on JT, or listening to wider opinions beyond the cyber borders of this webpage... the American Govt's for instance? That's quite a big one. The 'Israel does no wrong' crowd is apparent. and as for your response, why respond to a post not aimed at you? Me thinks you doth protest too much.

YangYong,

You are reading way too much into what I wrote to you. I just wrote that I haven't seen anyone write anything like "Israel does no wrong" on this thread...It is possible to think Israel does do some things wrong and still be against Hamas. As far as the US Govt's reaction to the Israel/Palestinian situation, basically it has been pretty much on hold for the last eight years. No real pressure on either side...Senior Bush actually did a much better job at getting Shamir and Arafat to actually talk to each other seriously.

As to me responding to your post...first, I was not "protesting"...just responding...quite common on JT...Again, please try not to overread what people write...

Lastly, I thought I tried to correspond in a polite manner. I am not sure why you would not welcome my comments. I certainly am interested in yours.

YangYong, you haven't really been reading the responses have you. Otherwise you wouldn't use the blanket term 'Israel does no wrong' crowd, to describe people who support Israel in their latest conflict. Its hard to see how wrong they are in defending their civilians from the unrelenting attacks on their people. Maybe its because I imagine myself in their position, if I was under constant attack from groups whose sole purpose in life was to murder me and my family, I imagine how I'd respond. You? Apparently you're ok with it.

SuperLib -

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire and international monitors to see if both sides are complying with the cease fire. Does anyone have a problem with that?

At face value I have no problem with this.

But once you get into it....

If another country attacks your country. You have that country's army, (here Hamas) who is supposed to defend the country. But you also have insurgents, new spin off groups and radicals who take up arms. No different then what happened in Iraq. The harder that the US tried, the more these groups and insurgents came out. The more they tried, the more that IEDs and gerrilla tactics came out. Even if Iraq had wanted to control these groups, they couldn't.

There may be rockets coming from Hamas, but you got these start-up groups attempting to defend their country against invaders. And they'll do it till they can't defend any longer.

So this part of your post

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire

is harder than you want to think.

Isreal knows this. They rely on this. As long as a single rocket is fired, Isreal is going to continue to kill Palestinians. < :-)

adaydream, very nice explanation above.

Isreal knows this. They rely on this. As long as a single rocket is fired, Isreal is going to continue to kill Palestinians.

Yep, Hamas knows this as well. They also rely on it. They want their people killed. Thats why they hide in schools, in mosques etc. Because if Israel destroys a Mosque, or a school, then everyone hates them. It doesn't matter that Hamas had their forces there, that they were firing mortars from the school, and that they deliberately didn't evacuate the school. No, what matters is that Israel fought back and that their people were killed, just as they had planned.

Molenir

But the majority were from outside of Iraq.

Prove your post.

The insurgents were fathers who lost their families, sons who lost families, doctors who lost their way of doing business when the US blew up everything, Baath party members who used to be loyal Iraqi civil servants kicked out and just plain patriots who never hated Americans before, but they did after we pre-emptively attacked them.

But I'd love to see your link. Don't send me something from this administration, they proved they lie. < :-)

Do I need to? Do your own research. Look it up for yourself. You can find tons of articles from all sorts of news sources talking about foreign fighters coming into Iraq. If you speak Arabic you could read some of the foreign language sites that try to recruit people as well.