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Israeli forces advance deep into Gaza urban areas, accused of using white phosphorus

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece

Confronted with the latest evidence, an IDF spokeswoman insisted that the M825A1 shell was not a WP type. “This is what we call a quiet shell - it is empty, it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. There is nothing inside it,” she said.

“We shoot it to mark the target before we launch a real shell. We launch two or three of the quiet shells which are empty so that the real shells will be accurate. It's not for killing people,” she said.

You believe that they shoot empty shells? I don't.

Israel used cluster bombs against Lebanon and denied it. They can't be believed now either.

The hospital’s chief doctor, Youssef Abu Rish, said the burns were not from contact with fire, but he couldn’t say what sort of substance caused them. He said information he collected on the Internet indicated it could have been white phosphorus.

Israel would never lie. Israel would never use something like this. Isreal is just so above it all. < :-)

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At least 870 Palestinians, about half of them civilians, have been killed in the conflict that began Dec 27 with Israeli airstrikes on Hamas buildings, as well as suspected rocket launch sites and smuggling tunnels on the Egyptian border. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have died.

As Fintan O'Toole (The Irish Times) observes "When does the mandate of victimhood expire?" he asked. "At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?" "At the point, surely, when that special pleading dishonours the memory of the Holocaust itself and excusing Israel involves the hollowing out of both reason and morality."

870:13. The ratio says it all. Reason and morality have been completely hollowed out.

Both sides are guilty and both sides have to finally begin negotiating in good faith.

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Some of them, they're on the White Phosphorous?

Say no to drugs!

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The Israeli Govt. must be expressing its thanks to the US government for supplying all the munitions it is dumping on Gaza.

In fact, right now the US is looking for a ship to ferry its latest shipment of ammunition to the Israelis - below.

Interesting to see the US supports terrorism against innocents.

==================== The Pentagon has entrusted a Greek merchant shipping company to deliver the weapons to Israel:

"The U.S. is seeking to hire a merchant ship to deliver hundreds of tons of arms to Israel from Greece later this month, tender documents seen by Reuters show.

The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command (MSC) said the ship was to carry 325 standard 20-foot containers of what is listed as "ammunition" on two separate journeys from the Greek port of Astakos to the Israeli port of Ashdod in mid-to-late January.

A "hazardous material" designation on the manifest mentions explosive substances and detonators, but no other details were given.(Ibid)

www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

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Israel is not party to a convention regulating its use.

Is this country a party to any international conventions or treaties that would restrict its wanton behavior? They certainly aren't part of the nuclear proliferation treaty. Sometimes I wish I were Israeli, then I'd be able to build up my own whaling fleet and be untouchable. Sea Shepard would send ships to harass us, we'd sink them and that would be the end of it. We might even sue Sea Shepard into bankruptcy using the courts in New York City.

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Well, it's just sad that violence has mysteriously broken out again in occupied Palestine. Being a HUGE fan of passive resistance (for other people) I just hope members of the Israeli government who come to this site to pore over my commentary will adopt the methods Ghandi and I believe in. Anyways, we all know bush will just go on carte blanching everything like the same way he always does in his loser fashion.

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Islamic Hamas militants whose rocket teams fired a heavy salvo at southern Israel.

The "Palestinians" apparently have no food, water, health care, etc. Yet Hamas has a seemingly endless supply of rockets. No shortage there. Go figure.

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Helter, only Israel is accountable for it's actions. No one thinks to question what drives them to their retaliations which up until now have been rather tame. Good on Israel. One day Palestinians and Liberals will learn when living in Glass houses one should not fire rockets from them.

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"International aid groups, however, say Israel must do more to ensure the safety of civilians. They note that civilians are in many cases unable to flee to safe places in Gaza, and are essentially trapped because the territory’s exits are closed."

What??? You mean simply dropping leaflets before you shoot someone doesn't make it THEIR fault for dying??

As for the chemical weapons, no surprise there... oh... but those who make a big stink all the time about others using chemical weapons are already trying to shift the topic back to Hamas' use of hobby rockets. Typical.

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By committing this latest war crime on top of the others Israel has created in new generation of Hamas supporters, suicide bombers and rocket makers. The joke is that Israel once poured money into Hamas thinking a religious organization would be a antidote to the PLO.

About "Palestinians and Liberals." Defense Minister Barak is a member of the Labor Party. Amos Oz and other liberal Israeli are supporting the war. Liberal Democrats in the US Senate voted unanimously to support Israel. The British Labour Party government is hardly objecting to Israel's Gaza slaughter. Follow Arab state Egypt is keeping its fellow Arabs, the Palestinians, out. Hamas, as essentially a religion-based organization is technically conservative. This invasion is not a liberal vs conservative issue.

It is a issue of people with a consistent moral conscience opposing this slaughter.

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As for the chemical weapons, no surprise there... oh... but those who make a big stink all the time about others using chemical weapons are already trying to shift the topic back to Hamas' use of hobby rockets.

Cleaning up after one of those 'Hobby Rockets'

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0e4xfGAb777Yg

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The days of rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel are numbered.

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All those who believe 100% Israel has done no wrong have either avoided coming on here altogether (can hardly blame them, as it gets tougher and tougher to defend Israel's actions), or simply come on here and fail to address what Israel is doing, as I stated.

Helter: "Yet Hamas has a seemingly endless supply of rockets. No shortage there. Go figure."

bushlover: "One day Palestinians and Liberals will learn when living in Glass houses one should not fire rockets from them."

WayneRooney: "Say no to drugs!"

sailwind: "Cleaning up after one of those 'Hobby Rockets'"

Yep, nothing at all to do with Israel in pretty much any of these posts. The only ones who even vaguely touched on the use of chemical weapons in Israeli attacks was the pro-whaling Molenir, who says, "Bring back the Cluster Bombs!", and sarge's usual WWII poster propaganda.

For everyone else who cannot possibly believe Israel is also committing some wrong on this, it's all about Hamas and nothing else. I wish they would understand that it's not Hamas invading Gaza and killing Hamas militants and Palestinian children/women/men, but Israeli troops, and the government with its decision to blockade. Likewise, it would be nice if they realized that war takes two or more parties, and the peace needed to end it ALSO requires efforts of the two.

We haven't heard anything new from these guys, though, in the past week and a half, and I doubt we will today, either -- particularly as Israel starts using illegal munitions (or in situations which make them illegal, at any rate) shipped by the US.

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International aid groups, however, say Israel must do more to ensure the safety of civilians.

Do these groups make the same demands of Hamas, which purposely targets civilians in Israel, as well?

those who believe 100% Israel has done no wrong have either avoided coming on here altogether

Most of us have jobs and a life outside JT, unlike others here.

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Israel is not party to a convention regulating its use.

Americans, and others, should seriously ask themselves whether they should continue to provide weapons and financial aid to a country that avoids signing on to such conventions and that continuously disregards "customary laws of war".

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Helter: "Do these groups make the same demands of Hamas, which purposely targets civilians in Israel, as well?"

Of course they do. In fact, it's a requirement for the cease-fire they are brokering.

Next question?

"Most of us have jobs and a life outside JT, unlike others here."

And yet this is your second post on the thread (first on the subject), on a holiday. Go figure.

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Jack: "Americans, and others, should seriously ask themselves whether they should continue to provide weapons and financial aid to a country that avoids signing on to such conventions and that continuously disregards "customary laws of war"."

Don't you know yet that that's only wrong when it's AGAINST the US, not when it's the people they sell said weapons too. Hehe.

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Don't you know yet that that's only wrong when it's AGAINST the US, not when it's the people they sell said weapons too. Hehe

I guess we shouldn't tell them about the USS Liberty then. Hehe.

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By committing this latest war crime on top of the others Israel has created in new generation of Hamas supporters, suicide bombers and rocket makers." Well, basically wouldn't that be more of a reason to push on even harder? I mean, if your enemy is only to get worse and with no sight of hope to see, why sit back and get complacent?

The joke is that Israel once poured money into Hamas thinking a religious organization would be a antidote to the PLO." And more of a joke, the entire existence, the whole reason Hamas was ever born was for the sole purpose of the destruction of Israel.

"Americans, and others, should seriously ask themselves whether they should continue to provide weapons and financial aid to a country that avoids signing on to such conventions and that continuously disregards "customary laws of war"."" Have their enemies signed on to these customary laws of war? (just a question)

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It's alright. The Israeli murderers dropped leaflets and said if you turn your countrymen in.....

Didn't the US try this is Iraq? What were the results?

So if you don't know a Hamas member you hide where?

If you know a Hamas member and he's dead?

It's a scam that Israel thinks they are pulling over the world's eyes. "Oh, we're being good little murderers and giving notice that we intend to kill and kill more till we're satisfied we've killed enough for today."

Right Israel is being so ........ george bush like. < :-)

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Do these groups [international aid groups] make the same demands of Hamas, which purposely targets civilians in Israel, as well?

The International Red Cross depends on its neutrality in order to accomplish its work. That neutrality has been almost universally recognized. The IRC has called upon both sides of this conflict to desist. That it has criticized Israeli actions should be a wake-up call to those who unequivocally support Israel.

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The joke is that Israel once poured money into Hamas thinking a religious organization would be a antidote to the PLO." And more of a joke, the entire existence, the whole reason Hamas was ever born was for the sole purpose of the destruction of Israel.

Israel needs enemies. Without them, they cannot continue to expand.

"Americans, and others, should seriously ask themselves whether they should continue to provide weapons and financial aid to a country that avoids signing on to such conventions and that continuously disregards "customary laws of war"."" Have their enemies signed on to these customary laws of war? (just a question)

My point is that Americans and others who provide military and financial aid to Israel are also responsible for this war crime. If they are decent human beings, they should demand that their governments completely stop supporting Israel.

Its like handing your car keys to someone who is obviously drunk or hiring a known pedophile to babysit your kids. You are partly to blame.

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My point is that Americans and others who provide military and financial aid to Israel are also responsible for this war crime. If they are decent human beings, they should demand that their governments completely stop supporting Israel.

Hey Jack,

Where did HAMAS get the mortars, anti-tank weapons and rockets?

They get free weapons from the arms fairy perhaps?

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Oooh. Sailwind, I can answer that one.

Starts with I and ends with RAN.

Smith,

As previously stated, the WP rounds in use are smoke rounds. That doesn't them 100% safe for use in civilian areas, but it also means they aren't anything like, say, mustard gas or nerve toxin. "Chemical weapons" are banned because they kill indescrimintely and the user has no control over where the cloud goes after the firing. In fact, they aren't even like WP incindieries, which would potentially create massive conflagrations in densely populated areas.

They "aren't considered chemical weapons" becuase they aren't chemical weapons. They are smoke rounds. Try to keep things in perspective.

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They say the first casualty of war is the truth and the truth appears to have died 60 years ago. Its apparent that people have taken sides without understanding the history of the land and the people who have occupied it, how the borders were drawn and the proportions of the land divvied up. There are many that fail to understand the motivations of the opposing sides and either knowingly or unknowingly become mouthpieces of the propagandists. And there are special some who are motivated by their own hatred and serve as enablers to the violence.

Who are you?

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Sailwind, Gazans need weapons for selfdefense. Israel needs them for land depopulation and expansion, and they use them even against their own allies (the U.S.). Big difference. If you haven't noticed, Palestine is being wiped off the map.

VOR, very true, for once I agree with you. Thank you for sharing with us a comment that was addressed to you. Much appreciated.

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VOR,

You first. Who are you?

What is the truth? And why did it die 60 years ago and not at the end of World War 1? What is your version of history and what do you have to say about borders and proportionality. What do you claim the motives of the opposing sides are? How many opposing sides are there? What is your motivation?

Moderator: Readers, no history lessons please. Focus your comments on what is happening now in Gaza.

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Gazans need weapons for selfdefense.

How does launching rockets and mortars into Israeli towns and cities targeting their civilians qualify as self-defense?

Seems they use their weapons for attacks rather than defense by their target selection.

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sezwho; i was asking a rhetorical question. no need to get defensive unless of course you have a reason to get defensive. if you feel like you really understand this complex issue, then congratulations, there's a job at the state department with your name on it.

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VOR,

As opposed to a philosophical question, there is usually an agenda behind a rhetorical one.

I don't think anyone really understands this issue, including--and maybe especially--those at the State Department. The high level decision making jobs there are usually filled with an eye toward received opinion, not toward understanding. I doubt that even the participants in the struggle fully understand it. So there's no need to be snarky.

I don't think that Israel will succeed in it's objectives through their current measures. It may succeed in stopping rocket attacks for a while, but it will not do so permanently. Every kilometer they advance into Gaza creates more enemies and those enemies will not relent until Israel finally does right by the Palestinians.

There is no long-term military solution. Israel must seek a solution that offers to the Palestinians something real, attractive and attainable within a time-frame that a sizable majority of Palestinians can hope to enjoy. Only when the Palestinians have something real and attractive at stake can the moderates even hope to contain the extremists.

This should be an essentially Palestinian problem. By turning it into a Palestinian/Israeli problem the Israelis make a huge mistake.

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Whatever sympathy Israel has left in the international community, except with arms dealers in the USA and elsewhere, is rapidly evaporating.

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Bloody genocide and some on here approve of these disgusting Israeli murders.

Strewth, they is making sure Gaza is in ruin, just to hurt the people there, and bacuse they got nukes, teh other countries nearby is scared of them.

How long before they have kille 1,000? Disgusting country it is!!

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Damn straight some of us approve of it. Where was your high and mighty butt when rockets were being lobbed into Israel? You didn't have anything to say then, why pipe up now?

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Anyone who approves of the wicked killing of over 800 mainly innocents is either a nutcase or evil.

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Loki, this is not about rockets. Anyone who has completed grade school should have figured that out by now. They want all of Palestine, and they want all Palestinians to leave or quietly accept that their state is being wiped out.

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Israel must not use white phosphorus weapon on densely populated areas. The white phosphorus is evil weapon killing children and women all over in towns.

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There are two bodies of law that deal with international relations in this world, International Law and the Law of the Jungle. Until today, Israel refuse to accept the global consensus that the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and East Jerusalem, are all militarily occupied territory. The occupying power is Israel. By ignoring this fact that Israel is an occupying power, Israel have created an environment that can only be described as the “Law of the Jungle,” where might is right and where, as we see in Gaza now, anything goes. Israel could have accepted international humanitarian law, as stipulated in the Fourth Geneva Conventions regulating occupations, and avoided many of the seemingly impossible positions Israel find themselves in today: from the settlement to the reality of missile attacks from the Gaza Strip.

Israel could have avoided dealing with the natural reaction of any occupied people to resist their occupation, by allowing international players to get involved and serve as a sort of referee between Palestinians and the occupying military.

Israel's main goal is maxium geopgraphy with minimum demography.

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Israel's main goal is maxium geopgraphy with minimum demography." With all the might everyone is talking about, why hasn't it be done already?

As I count the post, I see most here feel Israel should not exist.

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What Israel are you talking about? Hamas has agreed to make a state of the 67 borders why is it that Israel will not define it's borders? UN votes show how isolated the US and Israel really are. It will not be long before Israel runs out of money, since their main patron, the United States, is bankrupt. At that point Israel will have no choice but to shed its paranoid fortress mentality and accept a peace agreement based on the 1967 UN resolution and the people guilty of committing war crimes should be convicted for their crimes by the International Court.

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0874569 - Israel has at least $24Billion more dollars coming to them for the next 8 years. This is part of the $30Billion package that the bush administration pushed through for Israel. They got plenty of money and we have to find the $24Billion.

khatt - I understand we're shipping more weapons to Israel. All they have to do is kill Palestinian citizens they have plenty of weapons, bought and paid for by the good old U. S. of A. < :-)

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kwatt not khatt. My bust. < :-)

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0874569 at 09:39 PM JST - 12th January

Hamas has agreed to make a state of the 67 borders

Just more borders to fire more rockets over.

Israel has the same right as any country to defend itself & proportionality doesn’t come into it.

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grafton: "Israel has the same right as any country to defend itself & proportionality doesn’t come into it."

It most certainly does, which is why Isreal is now hated by many around the world, with the list growing and support shrinking. In fact, only one country supports Israel; the US. And that's only the US government and weapons companies. No one in their right mind supports Hamas, but what the disproportionate response has garnered a lot of support for Palestinians in general, and has raised a LOT of questions about what Israel's borders should end up being in the future. You'll find that most are in favour of the pre-'67 war borders.

Israel has done itself in, this time, and when it gets tougher in the coming days due to guerilla tactics, booby traps, and what not, they're going to lose domestic support as well as families lose their little boys in very unpretty ways. And god help any of these Israelis that get caught by Hamas!

Anyway, this is more or less Israel's last chance to pull out with a wee bit of what's left of their dignity intact, and they're probably going to blow that, too.

"Just more borders to fire more rockets over."

Yes, well, as you can see, the current situation hasn't stopped anything, nor will it if things continue to escalate. At least with the '67 borders there's a chance at peace.

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Palestinians do not accept the confiscation of the Palestinian people's right to resist occupation because wherever there is occupation, there is resistance,the issue is not only humanitarian, but there is occupation which must end.

israel must completely withdrawal all of their IOF troops from the Gaza, ending the siege and opening the crossings especially the Rafah border crossing.

Hamas claims are in line with international law and agreements.

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"israeli" forces advance, for the purpose of stealing land, like they always do. "At least with the '67 borders there's a chance at peace." Peace is not "israel´s" goal. It is complete domination of a land free of Palestinians. Simple as that. Armed robbery and murder writ large.

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Israel cannot expect security for its people as long as it occupies Palestinian lands and continues its attempt to impose a permanent military rule over the Palestinians by force. Israel must end its aggression ASAP and go into genuine political negotiations with a united Palestinian leadership. Both Hamas and Abbas.

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It most certainly does, which is why Isreal is now hated by many around the world, with the list growing and support shrinking. In fact, only one country supports Israel; the US.

absolutely right smith only one country remains steadfast in the prevention of most certain genocide.

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Israel is going to start going through the city, door to door.

They have been staying away from house to house killing so far and they have been able to rebuff some of the civilian deaths saying they tried to get Hamas, but now they're going to be caught in the same thing that the US did when they started going house to house.

But when Israel starts going from door to door they will start losing troops. They will get away from their killing from a distance and get into killing face to face. Israel has pissed off Hamas and simple Palestinian citizens. Israel is going to surprised. < :-)

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VOR: "absolutely right smith only one country remains steadfast in the prevention of most certain genocide. This is one more country then what existed when 6 million jews were wiped off the face of the planet."

Don't ssuggest that if you don't give Israel carte blanche you are basically giving permission to annihilate the Jews. If anything, your comment plays into the opposite hands and suggests that what the Jews are doing is tantamount to genocide. I have news for you, my friend, if the US pulled the plug on unconditional Israeli support now they would still have all the guns and what not they had yesterday, they would just lose the green light to wipe out as many Palestinians as they can, if that is indeed their plan. If Obama comes in in a few days and says Israel has to tone it down, it does not mean Hamas is suddenly going to be able to wipe out Israel, so don't be so utterly inane.

I am not suggesting at all no one should support Israel's right to exist. EVERYONE should, as a matter of fact; but I AM saying no one should unconditionally support Israel when they are clearly using excessive force. So don't try to make out that the US selling phosperous gas and cluster bombs is helping avoid another Jewish holocaust, because I'm afraid if ANY holocaust is happening here, and you want to make allusions to the ghettos and executions of yester-year, then you're support is in the wrong 'camp', my friend.

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Cleaning up after one of those 'Hobby Rockets'

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0e4xfGAb777Yg

Wow, all those thousands of rockets and you managed find a pic of the aftermath of one of the dozen or so fatal ones. And only had to go back 19 months to find it!

Maybe you have not heard of how many innocent people Israel has killed in the last few weeks??? If Hamas was the bad guy 19 months ago, Israel has completely broken the scales that measure who the bad guy is, that is how heavy bad they are.

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For everyone else who cannot possibly believe Israel is also committing some wrong on this, it's all about Hamas and nothing else.

Wow, that is a great point. It seems there are only two parties here: those that decry both parties and those that support Israel and not bad thing to say about them and just keep repeating "Hamas" like a mantra.

Do any of the Israel apologists have anything even remotely critical to say of Israel? Come on fellas, we of the middle have almost all criticized Hamas. Come on, be a big boy now.

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This is not a war on Hamas. That is propaganda. All the various politicla factions in Palestine is currently united fighting IOF. Ayman Juda Brigades,Al-Aqsa Brigades,Abu Ali Mustafa brigades,PFLP,Ayman Juda, An-Nasser and NRB together with Fatah and Hamas.

The Palestinian fighters enjoy bug support from the Palestinian people unlike the IOF who now are dressing up like Palestinin fighters raiding civilian homes.

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likeitis: "Do any of the Israel apologists have anything even remotely critical to say of Israel? Come on fellas, we of the middle have almost all criticized Hamas. Come on, be a big boy now."

Shhh! You're about to be called up on your anti-semitism and your desire for a second Jewish holocaust!

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Hamas is willing to work with the elected Palestinian government and the international community to avoid regional instability and bring renewed hope to our people.

Looks as if it is not Hamas who is disresepcting international laws and agreements.

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What is wrong with Hamas? They are democratic and is only demanding their rights according to international law. Besides this is not a war on Hamas but all Palestiians as all the Palestinian factions are united on Gaza from Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Hamas. Palestinian fighters are giving stiff resistance to the biliion Dollar Israeli war machine but they are not being able to reach their objectives.

The fighters enjoy lots of support among it´s citizens. Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. Resistance is not terrorism. Occupation is.

.

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0874569 if Palestinians hated Hamas as much as Israel and others want you to believe, Hamas members should have been turned in hand over fist. The Israelites should then have addesses to drop their U. S. made bombs onto their homes and not Palestinians. But Gazans aren't turning in Hamas leaders and members, they are holding their tongues and waiting for the Israelites to get within range of Hamas weapons. They are waiting for Hamas to stand up and protect them.

Hamas is the military arm of Gaza. Gazans are relying on Hamas to do their best to protect Gaza the best they can. They don't have the U. S. weapons factories waiting for Hamas' request to purchase the way that Israel puts in their request, right through the Whitehouse. < :-)

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adaydream . Hamas is is the political party governing Gaza who won the elections in 2006. Hamas is not the military arm of Gaza there are military arms within Hamas but that is not the same as saying Hamas is the military arm of Gaza. Other Palestinian factions are fighting IOF in Gaza now. The correct terminology would be IOF is fighting Palestinian fighters in Gaza. It is not Hamas who are firing rockets into Israel it is various people within various brigades who do. Technically speaking it could be Fatah firing rockts or Islamic Jihad but Hamas gets the blame for the rockets because the govern Gaza and since they are not able to stop the rocket firings. Hamas does not want to stop the rockets though because Israel does life the blockade.

It is wrong to label Hamas a terrorist organization. It is retarded. If Hamas is a terrorist organization then Israel is too.

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Anyway you look at it, It's Hamas that got the Palestinians into their present predicament, now they should rethink their stupid actions before they get more civilians hurt. I guess 13 Israelis were worth all the hurt though as it doesn't look like they are into stopping anytime soon. Just Plain dumb if you ask me.

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0874569 - Thanks for your clarification. < :-)

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Thanks for the nice feedback adaydream . I think the latest attack on Gaza from Israel has to do with various reasons. One is trying to end Hamas rule in Gaza but here I think Israel is not suceeding so what they now do is bomb and kill civilians in making them scared in not voting for Hamas in the next election. The reason why Israel does this is because not because of Hamas ideology but because Hamas is the most popular political party in Palestine. Before Hamas, Israel was doing the exact same thing to PLO as they do now to Hamas. The other reason is for political gains. Politicians bomb Gaza right before the electionsto boost the popularity of Barak and Livni. They are so-called moderates who do not want to lose votes to Nethanyahu.

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I just saw on the BBC more murders being carried out by Isarael. They showed Jews , the ones dressed in black with curly wurly hair cuts jumping up and cheering as bombs feel onGaza in the distance. They is so brainwashed, they think killing is good!

Strewth, i was shocked, the Israeli killing machine now says it will kill more innocents, even though the world except for the bleeding Yanks is against them. Bloody terrible stste of affairs. Time to boycott Israeli products and ban them Visas from travelling, that will learn them innit!

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Yeah Israelis shooting rockets at themselves. That makes sense so they can all just wage war for no reason. I bet they are also trying to steal the Palestinians money and fertile land too.

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I keep reading here about everyone wanting the pre-67 borders... You do realize that Israel pulled out of both Gaza and the West Bank right? They traded back the Sinai in the land for peace swap with Egypt years ago. The only thing left is the Golan Heights, and quite frankly, considering what Syria did from there, that ain't being given back... ever.

So, what expansion is Israel shooting for? All they're doing is pulling back. And what new territory are they supposed to surrender for peace?

What you don't want to admit, is that Hamas wants the pre-19[u]47[/u] border. As in, it wants Israel to cease to exist. And so many people seem to support this, it just sickens me.

AflGarnett - Has decided that if Hamas murders someone its ok. But if Israel kills someone its genocide. Even if there are more then a million plus more people in Gaza, the death of 1 person is Genocide.

This truly is a sad state of affairs where everyone blames the group who simply wants peace. No rockets, no war. Thats what it really comes down to.

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It's not a question of what Hamas wants. It's a question of what the Palestinian people will settle for.

Rockets are not the issue. In the final analysis Israel cannot stop them without a non-porous rocket shield. Advances in rocketry will mean that those who wish to will be able to hit almost anywhere in Israel from almost anywhere in the uncountry of Palestine.

Israel does not simply want peace. It wants to have peace on its terms.

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The only thing left is the Golan Heights

East Jerusalem?

You do realize that Israel pulled out of both Gaza and the West Bank right?

But maintained a degree of control over the border with Egypt after the pullout, a degree of control that actually increased after the pull out. Remained in control of the airspace and sea access, and over that remained in FULL control of all legal imports and exports regardless of where they came from.

Some pullouts just don't look like pullouts at all.

You do realize that Israel pulled out of both Gaza and the West Bank right?

Uhhhmmmmmm....no? Israel pulled out of 4 towns in the West bank. 120 settlements remain according to my source. I will let you do the math to explain how 4 out of 120 equals a pullout from West Bank. My understanding is that further pullouts were canceled in the aftermath of 2006 fighting with Hezbollah.

So, what expansion is Israel shooting for?

Well, I have to agree with that sentiment. Israel no longer wants to be seen as occupying those lands, lest they be stuck with the people there. (Never mind how much control they still have.) Accepting those people would mean a Jewish minority in Israel. The fears are so bad they have considered sawing off a part of Israel because so many Israeli Arabs live there. No kidding.

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likeitis - You are correct, East Jerusalem remains. However as the Jews consider Jerusalem their "holy city" Don't expect them to hand that over. In my opinion, Jerusalem should become an international city. Belonging to none. But thats a topic for another time.

You are right about the settlements too. There are a bunch of settlements in the West Bank. Unfortunately Israel because of its system of government, has to tolerate some nutcases in power, and throw them the occasional olive branch. Do you remember the drama involved in pulling out of Gaza? A bunch of settlers made a huge stink about it. The West Bank settlements are much worse, as they are older, and much, much larger.

The pullout of Gaza and the West Bank, was dependent on peace. If the people in those areas stop attacking Israel, over time they will gain more and more control. Eventually being granted sovereignty. At least thats the idea behind it. How well that has been implemented is up for debate, but the West Bank at least has a much greater degree of freedom then Gaza does. The borders there rarely close, and Arabs normally have freedom to go to the various shrines in Jerusalem and elsewhere.

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I know the stuff - I wondered why the press never realized that phosphorus was being used. There is no other substance in an army's arsenal that could be mistaken for white phos so the article writer is being biased to not say directly that Israel's using white phos on troops or civilians.

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If the "international community" truly gave a crap, they would give Israel exactly what it has been asking for. Israel's been saying it for years, and nobody has tried to pressure the "peaceful" Muslims to QUIT LOBBING ROCKETS.

Easy, huh? That's all they ask for besides the right to exist, and if HAMAS quit the rockets, there would be no fighting. But that isn't what Hamas wants. They want IT ALL...

And for those of you that think the peace loving Gazan's truly care, maybe you should look up not only the "platform" that Hamas ran on during the "elections", but the HAMAS charter as well. For those that are unaware, this political organization of Hamas has part of their charter as the death of ALL Jews. It talks about their land being coast to coast and the removal of ALL Jews. And they are pretty specific that "removal" means death.

Yes, there are some deluded people, but those supporting Israel are NOT among them.

And for all you "experts" out there, popped smoke is EASILY misidentified as white phosphorus by those that don't know any better (like any MSM or liberal peackniks... but I repeat myself). Maybe the weapons expert unscrejects would be so kind as to tell us WHY that is, and how the shells are similar, yet obviously different for those that actually look at them.

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0874569:

" Thanks for the nice feedback adaydream . I think the latest attack on Gaza from Israel has to do with various reasons. "

8000+ rockets fired from Gaza onto Israeli towns is not good enough reason? I wish all these pontificating hypocrits here would try to live for a while in a town like Sideroth, where you have 8 seconds warning to run for cover several times a day and night.

Sheesh!

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